Zach: 15 A is the memory of biology. I think the energetic world or these past life experiences are the database have felt realities. Welcome,
Dave: Dr. Zach Bush,
Zach: Dr. Zach Bush,
Dave: Dr. Zach Bush.
Zach: The entire world is actually inside of the human DNA. Every single gene that's ever been expressed by any organism on the planet is probably stored in the human genome.
I've come to believe that
Dave: mitochondria are the foundation of consciousness, and that may be a bit humanist. It may just be bacteria are the foundation of consciousness, and mitochondria are one of the
Zach: many bacteria. Nature has no purpose. Nature has an existence, but this human condition identifies that nature intended us into our existence and into our resilience and into our full potential.
And it's in this last a hundred years where we've accelerated this march away from that nature. Human cells don't have their own communication network, and so it should really beg the question is humans, even a species?
Dave: You are listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey,
Zach. Wired magazine once wrote an article that said, we are surrounded by a cloud of fart and poop bacteria that identify who you are. True or false? True. Ew. Yeah. How far does this
Zach: cloud extend? It's a big fart. It's a big one. This, uh, it is, this turns out that, it is a soup. It's, it is the stew of life that, uh, sits within kind of an eight, eight feet of the surface of the planet.
In some ways, it's just this thin little horizon of life that is colliding between earth and heaven here. And it's a miracle. It's an absolute miracle that it all has evolved to the connective intelligence and beauty that it's decided to express. And we're very fortunate to be part of that.
Dave: That was so much gratitude.
Now I'm sitting within eight feet of you. Are you upgrading my microbiome by your mirror presence?
Zach: Yeah, I think as soon as I, that's why I made you pick me up in the Jeep by get getting my Uber to deliver me to the wrong place so we could start that microbiome swap early, you know, get the full intercourse going here.
Seriously though, does being around other people just change your microbiome? Oh, it goes beyond that. Yeah. I mean, we're swapping information at such extreme levels. So, uh, my second subspecialty was in endocrinology and metabolism, and so the first half of that specialty is looking at the way in which organ systems communicate through hormones.
The second half of that is looking at the mitochondria, which are small bacteria that live inside our cells, communicate and produce life giving force and communication networks throughout the system. And so as I got deeper and deeper in that I was doing cancer research and realized that the concept of nutrition was being seen backwards, I, we'd been told that it was carbohydrates and proteins and macronutrients, micronutrients, but really the difference between that nutrition.
Nourishment is when the community starts to fellowship around those nutrients. And so when nutrients are coming to the body, they're tossed around in this, you know, soup of life, bacteria, fungi, protosome, parasites, and that system, that complex intelligence system then takes nutrients and turns them into nourishment.
And the difference there is almost vibrational. Instead of just being a carbon connected to a hydrogen or an oxygen, you really get these situations where there's a, a life force within the, the, the system and mm-hmm. When we start to kill the microbiome, we can eat the same things. And this is the challenge of the supplement industry is the reason we're supplementing ourselves is because our food system died some decades ago.
We never needed nutritional supplements. The whole concept's a bit of a red flag of like, we might have a problem, but uh, the fact that we're spending $250 billion on supplements is pointing to this fact that it's getting really hard to get nutrients out of food into a body. And unfortunately we're finding more and more is that putting the supplement into your gut is not actually going to make the difference.
It's actually getting the life force between this, the nutrient and the body. It's creating the nourishment of community and that ecosystem that actually makes a body thrive. And that's not something we can get in a bottle. And so that's something we've got to, to discover in our reconnection to complex ecosystems out, out and around us.
Dave: If that's
Zach: not
Dave: something you can get in a bottle, why do you make a supplement in a bottle that I like? Yeah. So
Zach: that's, that's actually what we've captured. So instead of a, a macronutrient or micronutrient, that bottle is a soil system that's suspended in water. And so we've been learning from nature over the last 15 years that, uh, nature and it's reflected in every indigenous culture.
Actually, if you go into the bush of Africa or Australia or down into the Brazilian rainforest, every meal is understood to be the dance of four elements. Yeah. In some, in some tradition it's five elements that are seen as they add the ether, but at very least you're sitting there with fire, water, air, and soil and earth in, in that kind of system of the four elements within a nourishment system.
And so that was understood historically, and as we've killed the microbiome of our soils through chemical farming. Yeah. Our team has been looking further and further back in time is what, what went missing? In the system. And what we found and what ended up in that bottle of ion is that that missing piece between the history of community and soil and the monoculture of today's soil systems.
And so when you lose community, you inherently lose communication. And when you lose communication, you lose the, the inherent ability for cell repair, regeneration, all that. And so that's why so many people are reaching for stem cells or peptides and all this is because there's a failure of communication cellular level.
So we've taken simply a different approach to, to health and nutrition in, in the sense that instead of trying to micromanage nutrients, what happens if we put the nourishment back into the system? And so ion's been this really fascinating journey into realizing that the system is so complex that it would be nearly impossible to even start to understand what question ask, let alone come up with a re reductionist answers to how we're gonna create connected ecosystems again.
Dave: Well, if glyphosate has this power to destroy the community, why wouldn't. A compound or a set of compounds have the ability to restore it.
Zach: It's actually the community that goes and restores it. And so. In 2012, we were able to show that, uh, the, the family of molecules made by a diverse ecosystem within soil systems is the actually the antidote to Roundup.
And so it wasn't until we started creating these perfect storms of chemicals in the 1970s. So the Green Revolution, which was basically chemical agriculture at scale, it was a lie, started in the 1960s, really got its, its foothold in the 1970s. And by that time we were using things like Agent Orange, which is two four D, and we were using atrazine.
And then glyphosate came along in 1976 to be kind of the new kid on the block. And it became the, the, the granddaddy of em all almost instantly. It was so effective at, at killing microorganisms. And our lab for the last 15 years has been really working on what's actually happening to a human cell when glyphosate touches it, because it's been touted as a very safe compound of farmers and consumers and regulators and governments.
And so nobody had really done the correlative studies and down to structure function. And so, we're very fortunate that Stephanie Snf out of MIT mm-hmm not starting in the late 1990s, did the correlations of, here's the amount of Roundup sprayed in the region, here's the amount of chronic disease that comes into that population within five to 10 years.
So she gave us a really beautiful and continues 25 years later to give us the definitive science on the correlation between herbicide use and chronic disease paradigms. Our lab came along recognizing that nobody was changing their paradigm. 'cause all of the industry was still able to say, well, it's just a correlation.
It's not causation. And so we've been working on the exact mechanisms, and this year our definitive paper will come up. It's 10 years in the making, but we've published some other papers along the way showing that glyphosates the foundation of gluten sensitivity and all of these things. And so what we've accepted as a normal state of disease didn't exist when I started my medical training and in the early 1990s, and so 19, 19 92, we didn't have gluten sensitivity as, we didn't have celiac diseases in epidemic.
We didn't have Lyme disease in epidemic. We didn't have chronic fatigue syndromes. We didn't have fibromyalgia. We didn't have. Chronic regional pain syndromes. And so we've had to create a whole new diagnostic, you know, book on what humans are now presenting with over the years. So the exact mechanisms are actually pretty profound in that um, they give us a sense of how, how are we gonna find our way out of this crisis we've created?
Because the first thing that happens when you put the communication network back between the cells, and again, just to put an emphasis on it, human cells don't have their own communication network. And so it should really beg the question. Is humans even a species? What do you mean they don't have a communication network?
I know like five signaling mechanisms,
Dave: those signaling mechanisms are being made by the ecosystem around and within the cell. Well you're saying the mitochondria are not a part of the cell 'cause they
Zach: talk to each other with biophotons.
Music: Right.
Zach: They're, they live inside your cells, but they're certain nonhuman, they have their own genome.
There you go. Their DNAs. Yeah. You know, they've got their, their own frequency. And we now know that they store a lot of their reproductive DNA inside the human nucleus. Yep. Within our DNA. And so the microbiome is a description of life itself. Bios is probably the, the, the unifying definition here. Bios refers to the complex, interconnected relationships that make life possible.
And so when you look at a species that's now multicellular, and not just an earthworm multicellular, but a human multicellular, where you're dealing with extreme amounts of information that's coursing through this body and creates such a complex symphony of. You, you've gotta have an entire, you know, not just community, you've gotta have a civilization moving in a human.
And its numbers are grand. You, we've only got 70 trillion human cells, which is a large number. It's about the size of the US national debt. And so you had 70 trillion cells that are powered by 1.4 quadrillion bacteria, somewhere around 10 times that much in fungi, proteasome the rest. And then you've got 14 quadrillion mitochondria living inside the human cells to create that organic garden system of communication, networking inside the cells.
And my area of expertise in the cancer world was mitochondrial metabolism in cancer cells. And what you find out is long before cancer cell can become cancer, that human cell is having a degeneration of the soil system inside of it and outside of it. And so it's this loss of gut microbiome, which is tied to skin microbiome.
Respiratory microbiome. So the whole body, we to really think, well, the colon, we can accept there's bacteria there, but, but the rest of the body must be sterile. No, it's not. Actually. The brain has its own microbiome. The prostate has its own microbiome, you know, so every single organ in the body is teaming with organisms outside the cells, and inside the cells are unique subsets of the mitochondria, which are very diverse in their genome expression.
Speciation is very difficult in mitochondria, and it really is, we've kind of thrown up our hands saying we can't because they change so fast and mitochondrial will change its genomic expression. Yeah, a few times a day. And so that speed of morphology that the mitochondria doing is, is giving humans our adaptation factor.
Hmm. The reason I can jump from, you know, my day yesterday where it's, you know, 13 degrees somewhere up north and then suddenly I'm an 80 degree weather down here, my mitochondria adapt immediately. My thermal regulation in my core adapts instantaneously. I turn on microorganisms that weren't working yesterday.
And since that plasticity relies on the biodiversity inside my cells and outside my cells, and as soon as you start to lose that macro, micro ecosystems, the communication networks are gone. Okay. And so the ion is what we're using as a bridge. There's, we would like to put ion out of business completely in the next 20 years.
So all of our money's been going into nonprofits and other companies that are trying to solve for these root cause breakdowns and food systems and macro, you know, desertification cycles, plants in and everything else. Because there's, it's illogical that we should need fossil soil to make available the nourishment of today's nutrients.
We've got to learn from that and reprogram our modern soil such that our grandchildren, you know, would never need a bottle of anything to be nourished by them, the mother of the earth here. And so we've got to reconnect these systems if we're going to survive and, and we're right at that really interesting point of an extinction of a human species, which is to say the death of ecosystems that express themselves through a human species.
Dave: I've come to believe that mitochondria are the foundation of consciousness, and that may be a bit humanist. It may just be bacteria are the foundation of consciousness, and mitochondria are one of the many bacteria. I also think they're the basis of Q or life force energy, as people call it. Do you agree or disagree?
Zach: Well, let's go back to a definite of life. And then consciousness is basically the life experiencing the cosmos. Yeah. And so life experiencing the cosmos re requires a perspective. And to get a perspective on nature you, you've gotta have a whole lot of energy to separate your, your, your perception.
Right? Right. And so much of nature is so integrated into nature that it, it doesn't know the difference between itself and the sunset, the sunrise. And so the birds in the air, the elephant in the bush, they don't seem to notice the spectacular thing that's happening off to the horizon there. And all the humans stop and stare at that sun and just sit and on.
We meditate for three hours while that sun's dropping down over the horizon of Africa. We're the only species that does that, and it gets me very curious about this issue around what is causing that much perception to happen, to allow us to stop and wonder at the beauty of nature. I. And in the end it has to do with light concentration.
And so light in physics world is manifest as stars suns. Mm-hmm. And so these suns are nuclear efficient infusion events. That's the price thing physics can do, but no matter how much sun that or light is pumping outta that orb. There's no life around it. It is vacuum space forever. It's not until that light energy is captured by a carbon molecule that we start to have the possibility of life.
There's a lot of focus on water is necessary for life and all this, and that's, no, there's no question for our version of biology that we have on this planet. Water's necessary, but it would never happen on an aqueous planet if there was not carbon. 'cause carbon is the methodology by which we can concentrate sunlight and it takes about a thousand fold concentration of light energy before you can manifest light, light in enough concentration to get life.
And so that's where the mitochondria come in, is it's the mitochondria. They're breaking apart the double in single carbon bonds to release sunlight back into the system. With enough light, then you can have the experience of what we might call consciousness. With enough light, you can coordinate enough particle states in enough diversity to start to be able to create intelligence stacking geometries in a lot of ways.
And so physics is stacking itself in more and more complex geometries than than. Focus or consolidate energy, sunlight, if you will. And with the concentrate of that, then you get these vibrational information streams going. Mm-hmm. That then allow for something to appear that we would call intelligence.
And we've shown, you know, in science now around the microbiome, a single course of antibiotics wipes out that gut floor and your creativity goes down, your rate of depression goes up, your rate of anxiety disorder, sleep disorders, everything goes off the charts because you just lost the workforce. 'cause you lost all those stacking geometries of thousands of species that were contributing to different versions of concentrated light energy.
The bacteria are good at it, they, they'll concentrate about a thousand fold the light energy. But mitochondria, the masters, so they came along about 2 billion years ago as two bacteria combined forces. It's an ArcHa, which is, you know, one of the more ancient versions of bacteria. They can survive in acid pools and all kinds of right noxious environments.
And archaic came along and seemed to have swallowed a methane producing, uh, mycobacterium. And the two of those happened to have a collaborative membrane relationship that allowed a 10 x improvement in energy con production. And so suddenly we went from fermentation of single cells to the opportunity for a multicellular creature.
'cause inside of that double bacteria was so much energy production that it allowed for an immediate upgrade in biology. And so again, we get to see biology's gonna follow suit as to how much light is concentrated per cubic centimeter on the planet. And so in that way, mitochondria are right at the root of, of the, the force of life, as you said.
And in that, with enough of it, with enough collaboration, we can get something that appears to be consciousness.
Dave: We know that our gut bacteria and our mitochondria actually manufacture light small amounts of it, right? Oh yeah. So there's like bioluminescence in the gut and. It looks like light isn't just energy there, it's also a communications mechanism for that network.
That's exactly right. What can we do to enhance that communications network so that light works better, either externally or internally? Yeah, so there's
Zach: a couple mechanisms that the body uses. The first is fiber optic cables, and so the fiber optic cables between human cells known as gap junctions are complex systems.
They gap junction sits between two human cells, every single human cell necessarily being connected by multiple gap junctions to the adjacent ones. So you might have 3, 5, 10 gap junctions and under an electron microscope you can see that that gap junction as a whole cable system measures about, you know, 10 times smaller than a human hair in its circumference.
Mm-hmm. Then you zoom in on that again and you find out there's a thousand cables inside that Wow. And in on the end of every one of those thousand cables is a perfect three-dimensional aperture, just as you'd see in a camera lens. And that ature opens and closes tightens and to let light through or close it down.
And so you're literally doing fiber optic communication down at the cellular level as one cell pulses in. And I think that, I think science has gotten away with ex suggesting there's not much energy in human cells again and again. And so they, they say, well, there's not that much light energy there. A tiny bit of light energy.
Well, that's light emitting from the cell. They haven't calculated the amount of electromagnetic field being pulsed out in electricity from the cell. They haven't measured the amount of, or somebody will go measure that and say, ah, there's very little electricity. Mm-hmm. But then you think about, well, how much energy does it take to make a a material particle?
'cause we know all that electricity has to go into a particle to rebirth your cells every millionth of a second because you're actually not solid. You're rebirthing all the time from vacuum space, right? And so we just keep brushing aside relativity and quantum physics all the time when it comes to human biology.
And we're like, well, we're made of cells. No, you're not. You're made of atomic structure, which means you're mostly vacuum space. And to re manifest enough particle, you've gotta generate so much energy all the time. And so it's, that's I think where our calculations start to get into these accurate numbers.
Like, whoa, this is way more than physics has to offer. Life is so much more light filled, so much more energetic because all that light is becoming particle. It's becoming electricity, it's becoming magnetic fields. It's becoming e emitted light. It's becoming thermal heat. And so we're using all that energy from, from that stored sunlight, from carbon in a million ways to manifest what we would call life.
It's such a
Dave: elegant and beautiful explanation. And there's one thing that's coming to mind that. Maybe pokes a hole in it. Germ free mice, they don't have a community of bacteria. They live in cages, kind of, they're sealed cages where no bacteria get in there, but they really don't get sick. They actually are ripped just almost no matter what they eat, as long as you don't give 'em a microbiome.
And as soon as they get regular mouse poop, then they get all the normal diseases. Why would life without a microbiome
Zach: thrive? Because they're not without microbiome. 'cause the 10 times that of the bacteria that they're saying is they're stripped of, is the mitochondria inside their cells? Ah. And so they're just small bacteria that they're not measuring.
Dave: And so, okay. So they still have mitochondrial, they have life, but. They thrive. Oh, like they, they can do things that you can't do if you have other bacteria in your gut. So maybe all the bacteria in our gut really aren't our friends.
Zach: Well, I would say there's two ways to do that. And so there's adaptation.
So as soon as the, the microbiome we could call the microbiome that's out there in the gut and all that, versus the micro system of the mitochondria inside of yourself, the rate of aada adaptation, again, is extremely fast. And I have this eerie feeling that we're about to find out in, in our DNA science that mm-hmm.
The entire world is actually inside of the human DNA. Every single gene that's ever been expressed by any organism on the planet is probably stored in the human genome. And the reason that's so sneaking on me these days is like when I keep looking at the science coming out around how much of our DNA is is not making human proteins, and then to find out that the mitochondria are actually storing a bunch of their genome inside of the human DNA, yeah, they outsource and they can go and access that at any time they want.
That starts to get weird. It's like, wait, why now have we been able to relegate it in the scientific brain that is only mitochondria that are storing all their genes inside of our DNA. Isn't it just as likely that my entire gut microbiome at some point is stored? Its DNA inside my human nucleotides. And you're like, well, that's a lot of genes act.
That's a lot of genetic information. But then you start to look at how much genetic information is in a human body. Yeah. Uh, the each cell in my body that I would call human contains about a meter of DNA. And so, well, if we took your body apart and we strung all of your DNA end-to-end you would wrap around the circumference of the earth.
Take a guess. How many times would one, one human wrap around the earth? Probably a few dozen. Yeah, exactly. It's 25,000 miles of DNA and meters is actually 2 million, 2 million times you would wrap around the earth 2 million times. Wow. And so you start to think of these tiny, tiny, microscopic nucleotide sequences holding information and, and then thinking how much information is around in entire circum.
And now I multiply two, two in a million that DN just repeated. That's the dogma is that, well, one human cell has the same DNA, that's something, but we now know that's absolutely not true. Mm-hmm. Because the microbiome in one cell is radically different than the other. And so the genes that are being stored inside of one set of mi, you know, cell from their microbiome, could easily be holding genetic information not reflected next door.
Are you talking about the
Dave: microbiome included? Not just mitochondrial and nuclear DNA.
Zach: Exactly. Oh, makes sense. And so that's quite possible. Makes sense. Now it's possible that we've got a whole lot of life being stored in the memory of human DNA and it's being fractured up in microRNA and micro DNA strand nucleotide sequences.
So it's not obvious to us right now because our current tools are so fascinated and so refined to this protein synthesis issue. Mm-hmm. If it doesn't make a protein, it's not a gene. Right. And we've held that for a long time in our definition of DNA. Mm-hmm. Well, if only one point a half percent of the human genome is coding for a protein, what's that other 98.5% of the genome doing?
And I think that's the part that's most plastic. And so you're probably passing on that one point a half percent with quite a bit of, you know, predictability. But I am curious to know how much we might find out is being stored elsewhere. Yeah. And so when you say these are germ free mice living in a cage, how much of that information is actually available to the mouse already in its own DNA?
Mm-hmm. And is the mouse able to, in light of a missing. Neural pathway or detox pathway because the bacteria aren't there doing it, what's likely they might be able to access that enzyme in a collaboration with the mitochondrial inside of themselves to repeat that journey. And so the, the body in constant adaptation, and the thing about the germ-free mice is they had to develop those slowly.
It took generations of training those things, how to stay alive. Mm. Um, before they were able to do what they do. So it's not like you just give a antibiotic to a mouse and they do better. Now. You kill a mouse immediately if you give 'em enough antibiotics to make 'em sterile. And so they had to be bred, you know, generation after generation to reach this, this lifespan that was reasonable of a few months, you know, in this term free environment.
Okay.
Dave: One of the things that, that I collect is, we'll say corner cases or things that aren't supposed to happen but do happen. And the typical human being will say. That can't happen. Therefore, it didn't. Therefore, whoever's reporting it is a bad man, and it's a very childish view of the world, but it's just, it's something that our brains do to save energy, I think.
And there was a, a study a while ago where they took bacteria that couldn't digest, lactate, it didn't have the ability to do that, and they put them in a solution that only had lactase, a fuel source, nothing else. And you would expect them to starve to death, but they didn't. They changed their genetics to be able to survive in that environment.
And it completely pokes Darwin in, in the eye, right? And people say, oh, that was just one. It doesn't matter if it was just one. Like that's the definition of science. So now we have a story that's useful about reality, but it's not accurate. It's just useful. And so that's a very small bacterial level case of what you just described.
Right where life adapts,
Zach: life adapts. And you know, the most obvious place that we're completely wrong about everything is viruses. You know? Okay. We keep thinking that viruses cause something. Mm-hmm. You know, and so we attribute a syndrome of an illness to a virus. Viruses are a rebranding of something that's known as an exosome.
And so exosomes are the process in which any species exudes its genome outside of its body, but it doesn't exude the genome that is currently being expressed in the body. It exudes a new possibility for its own body or for nature to express. And so the virome as a definition of all of the viruses in the, on the planet that have been exuded by all of them.
Micro ecosystems, macro ecosystems of the planet. That database of information is the imagination of nature's future that hasn't occurred yet. Mm-hmm. And we've chosen to demonize that thing saying, well, if there's any problems with our current biology, it must be that thing over there because it's, it must be against us.
And so we got this story that got baked into our mindset somewhere between germ theory, which was mostly talking about bacteria and this kind of new omic theories that were coming through after Watson Andrick came along and said, oh my gosh, there's DNA and there's genes everywhere and you might be getting infected by somebody else's genes and all this.
And so we developed this new version of Gene of germ theory, which is a little bit interesting 'cause there's, they aren't actually li living and this is often overlooked. It's very common. You read a definite microbiome, they'll throw the viruses in there. The viruses are not the microbiome. The word biome means living organisms in their relationships.
There is no life inside of a virus. There's no energy production. There's no energy storage. There's just a strand of DNA with a few proteins that can help translate that if it ends up needing being needed by biology. And so what's happening is we are creating a, a. In some ways a memory of all of the possibilities that we could have been before we became human when we create our exosome base.
And so in my breath right now, I'm exerting on this room a lot of imagination and my urine and my feces and all of the excrement of my body, all of the, the system is carrying these little exosomes. And this is the human that hasn't lived yet. This is the human that will come after us in the sense that this will be the intelligence of biology once our extinction is complete.
And so I love that about nature. She, when you show, you show her stress, and especially if you show her a lot of stress, she immediately is imagining the next version of what's gonna come. And it's always gonna be more diverse, more beautiful, and more intelligent than it was with her previous iteration.
And so viruses in this intelligence is not able to take over a human cell, as we're told. You know, you breathe it in, it takes over your cells and it remanufactured itself. And then those go and like I. If that was really the case, you'd be dead by every virus. What's stopping it from doing that and why did you decide to make it in the first place?
Is my curiosity of like actually for all this fear around gain of function laboratories. That's what biology is. It's one giant gain of function by biological laboratory. And so life is constantly scanning for its next opportunity. And so in my bloodstream right now, I've got about 10 billion viruses.
I've got, you know, 10 to the ninth viruses that are cours through my bloodstream. Not the same one. It's not repeating. It's different. So I've got 10 billion new genetic sequences that are pulsing through my bloodstream right now. And every one of my 70 trillion cells will be exposed to that over the next 15 minutes.
Every cell will scan all 10 billion of those. And so as my bloodstream courses through my body, every cell is scanning, scanning, scanning, and if there's a gain of function opportunity, it says, ah, I think I could use that one. And it takes that up inside. And then a huge round table has to be assembled to decide if this is gonna be what we do.
So nobody can decide a new protein. It's too important. You can kill the species, you can make the wrong protein. And so the most regulated step in biology is the decision to make a protein from a gene. It takes 200 mm-hmm. Co-factors, co repressors coactivators to get into concert around the enzyme that will translate that RNA strand or DNA strand from the virus into a protein or into a retrovirus, and then code back into your DNA.
Those steps are highly, highly regulated. It is impossible that a, a gene comes in to take over your body. It doesn't have any of the apparatus to do anything to your body, and so it's really has, it's, the apparatus is a collaboration that's beyond complexity, and so what's happening is our bodies are constantly updating, constantly updating.
And then we get sick. And the moment you get sick means that there was one of those gain of functions that got proved out of the cellular level that was critical for your survival. And so now you gotta go pass that thing around. Mm-hmm. So most of the uptake, I think, goes unseen. I'm probably updating a gene.
I. I, I don't know. It could be every millionth of a second. I'm taking up one of those 10 billion new, new options and updating my body with it. But when we get sick, that's a moment where your body's like, okay, I'm gonna use this all over the place. I'm, this one needs to go everywhere. Mm-hmm. And so I'm gonna put this person in bed.
I'm gonna shut down their, their energy. That's, I'm gonna put all that energy into protein synthesis, and we're gonna go about restructuring the whole body. It's very much like rebooting your computer. And so you gotta shut the damn thing down and upload the new operating system and go. So when you see the fever and all this, this is your body's decision to do a major upgrade.
And then you might say, well, people die from that stuff. Like, people do die. It's like smallpox
Dave: or herpes or something. These are viruses. It seems like, what, what's going on with those?
Zach: Yeah, so, so you could pick any of 'em if flu is the most common one to kill people. Right. And so you got flu and you got.
But you get to point to something. I thought flu had been rebranded to get rebranded as a good PR campaign. But, but, uh, the, that flu is, that flu virus is there to, again, do this gain of function update in ways that we don't even, we're not smart enough to know yet as s what's happening there. Why is that one being picked?
Why is that being disseminated through the whole body? So what happens when you, you end up dying from something is not because the virus came in as a takeover, it's because your body tried to do a critical update and you didn't have the energy to implement it. So it's always down to mitochondrial energy.
It's how many mitochondria
Dave: or burning inside your cells, period. And we're kind of aligned. I, I describe myself as a mitochondrial fetishist. Uh,
I realized I had chronic fatigue and. This is back in the late nineties and, and like, I know my energy's broken, so I'm gonna go after the energy production system 'cause I'm a computer hacker. And you realize it's a complex network, a distributed intelligence, and that it's listening to the environment.
Like these are what made the biohacking thing happen. And that viewpoint works for almost every disease I've ever come across. So you have migraines. Let's fix your mitochondria. Like let's fix the fuel source for them. You know, you have insert name of whatever it is, including things that can't be cured.
You, you find the thing that makes the mitochondrial network stronger or makes them make more energy and more light. To your point, magically things get better. And what I don't understand yet is, you know, what is the set of most important variables in the environment? I know that there's light and there's temperature and there's timing and there's vibration and there's chemicals, even things like essential oils or, or chemicals.
And then there's the bacterial environment, right? And there's magnetic stuff that's happening and there's subatomic particles that are actually involved in that. How do you order that list of all these environmental things that that are important signals for you so that you can make some semblance of it?
If we were bodies
Zach: that had souls, then we'd go after the body. But I think we're souls that have body agreed. And so we are these magnificent energy centers with complex geometries that have been here since the origin of time is a a, a reasonable model. We kind of created time as far Yeah, yeah. And so, well time exists.
Time, time is something that we not like. Perceive well, we perceive it doesn't mean it's real. Well, I would argue that there is a fourth dimension and that fourth dimension measures the distance between two, two events or two masses as they move through space time. And so it's, it's a measurement of, one of the dimensions of reality is time when we start to try to make some conclusions about, you know, time as a fixed construct, that's where that starts to break down.
And so because it's a multidimensional phenomenon, it's only relevant in it, its relationship or context of the other dimensional inputs. I. Time gets pretty warpy. Like it, it's a bendable thing just as mitochondria are. It
Dave: feels like time and love are, they both exist, but they're not that easy to pin down because they're things we perceive.
Yeah,
Zach: they, they change right. Well, I think you just answered your own question with that one actually. You know, so how do you make sense of all this stuff? And for me, the answer for me and used to be patients, and now they become my collaborators and I've shut my clinic down, realizing that anytime I put somebody in a patient provider relationship, it breaks down the empowerment of an individual.
Mm-hmm. And they can't reach their healing unless I get out of the equation. That'd be interesting. And so, uh, we created the journey of intrinsic health as a methodology for allowing eight people to come into a constellation, to witness each other's intrinsic health. And what that has been helping us show is that the real matrix we're living in is the masculine and the feminine qualities of a pla not just a planet, but actually nature itself.
And the cosmos. The masculine is simply that which will witness the flow of energy, which we would call the feminine. And so when yes, you have a witness and you have a flow, then coherence occurs. And so really what we're being called to is letting go of all of our reductionist beliefs about nutrition and supplements and all the things, and start to ask that question, how do we create complex systems in which we can all hold still enough to witness another?
And then say, say our response to that, which is gonna be a frequency in which when we see beauty, we, we induce this wave waveform that we call unconditional love. And when we experience that back, we get gratitude. And so we get this nice interchange of unconditional love and gratitude, which are two frequencies that are basically connecting your eternal state.
It might be a soul to your biology. And if you are lacking those connections, the body dies quite quickly in a state of isolation, disease, inflammation, everything else, because you've lost the original math. And so the translator between the infinite and the finite are these frequencies that are generated by a body when it experiences itself, when experiences the beauty of nature in itself around itself.
And so for, for me, I've started to realize that anytime I put some tool or some solution into a patient's field. My, my most likely outcome is to decrease their capacity for, for real healing. Are mitochondria masculine or feminine? It depends on which phase you're in. I think every, everything's got masculine, feminist, you know, bacteria has to have both.
The single atom has to have both or else it doesn't stay stable. And so the, the masculine is, is basically the fabric of, of the cosmos that is structurally still. Okay. Okay. So it's basically you got this web of energy that that stays in a relationship to one another where there's vector equilibrium, meaning there's stillness.
What flows through that then we would call the feminine, you know, and, and so this is the, the life force, if you will. And so you've got something that's stationary and then you've got life force in the universe. And as soon as something that still witnesses the motion and the beauty that that would create, then it can create a particle out of that light.
But if un witness, that just stays as the potential for something solid. And this is the observer effect in physics. So that two slit experiment, if there's no sensor around, no humans and no electrical sensor, nothing. And that x-ray behind that steel plate is covered with this rainbow of possibilities, and the light just goes simply everywhere.
And it's like, right, wait, how is that possible? There's only two slits. You're shining a light through these two slits. You can clearly see it as soon as you go into the room, you say, yeah, there's only two little slits of light that are allowed through that steel plate. How is the entire X-ray seen, you know, film seen?
The, all those potential is because nobody has witnessed the, the, the light. And so it remains in its infinite possibilities. You put a sensor in there, you put a human in there or just a little electrical sensor, and suddenly there's two perfect slits expressed on the, on the x-ray film. The, the observation of the phenomenon is what's creating everything in its solid form.
So the steel plate doesn't even exist if there's not even a sensor to, to differentiate the, the world in which we see the static and the motion. But you, you put an observer in this thing, then everything is in this particle state. And so whether it's a mitochondria, a single atom, you've gotta have this marriage of the masculine and feminine.
Okay. Which is an observer effect
Dave: in Taoism or Tantra. Or even Sheila Kelly at the last biohacking conference talks about, you know, the masculine energy form. This, you know, Qigong, it's like standing still, like holding space. And then the feminine expression is, you know, dance and movement. And there's, uh, several different types of like shamonic or in that realm of, of healing ceremonies where the man's job and that is just be present and grounded and still, which allows a massive transformation for feminine energy and it creates a loop.
And, you know, the old principle from alchemy and as above, so below and all that, which is an expression of, well, you know, the universe is probably holographic, which supports your idea that inside of you is all life inside your DNA. Because it seems like that's an a principle of reality. It's just one that a lot of modern scientists absolutely reject.
I. Why do they reject it?
Zach: I think we're after specialness. Ultimately, we're really afraid that we got kicked outta nature. We have this uniform abandonment disorder that's got us running around trying to engineer ourselves back into nature, and so we're doing all kinds of technologies and everything else I.
When you go through a, you know, a biohacking event and I was just one in London 1200 booths. And at the end of the day you realize what you heard over and over again is people telling you that this technology replaces this part of nature. This, this part's gonna do this thing. Then, you know, and the answer in the end is like, wow.
Shoot, this weekend, next weekend, instead of the bi cameras, we should all just go to the beach together. You know? And we get all of that beauty in there. And so our technologies right now are a bridge back to nature or our avenue to death and extinction. And so we, it's not the technology that's wrong, it's the application of it.
And so if our technologies are taking us further away from nature, we are, we are doomed if our technologies sit there and star us in the face until we realize that nature had all of our solutions when we were, you know, self organiz in our mother's womb. Then we we're in a different pattern of life expression.
So not the technology good, bad, but the question is how are we applying that technology or what are the lessons we're learning from it?
Dave: Maybe nature once had all of the answers, but our soil has been massively destroyed. Our there are species that don't exist anymore that ought to be in our microbiome.
And I kind of think it's helpful to use some red light therapy, right, which is directly communicating with mitochondria and actually increasing that light in the body. Yes, sun is good for you. You can only lay in the sun at least if you're as pale as I am for so long before you start getting sunburn,
Zach: right?
So, well, you only take, you only need that few minutes though, a few minutes in sunshine with a full bandwidth. Then all your mitochondria getting all that stimulation. Five minutes is plenty, takes very little time for light energy. Penetrates a human body at an extreme rate. You know, the radiation from the sun overall, whether it be light, electromatic, mm-hmm.
Gamma ray, whatever it is, the, that stuff is through the entire system in a matter of milliseconds. And so you spend five minutes, times milliseconds, suddenly you're in quadrillions of updates across the system. And so five minutes, the sunshine, I'll put that, you know, against any technology we've come up so far.
But the reality is we're living in environments where people are not getting the sun. And so, mm-hmm. So again, the, the technology, I'm not saying the technology doesn't work, I'm just saying the technology needs to point us back to a reintegration with nature because in the end Yeah. We don't have enough technologies to, to create osis.
We, nobody has actually created
Dave: life. That that is a, a very important point. And it's funny, you know, I, I created the biohacking movement and I also created a regenerative farm to live on and raise my kids down. 'cause I recognize the benefits of the soil, but I don't mind adding energy. And you know, Brandon Crawford was just on the show.
And he's using very specific wavelengths of light to communicate with mitochondria. And he's taking people with a LS or children with brain injuries and he's regrowing their brains in a way that sunlight doesn't. So it feels like there's times when we can use tech to help a mother nature.
Zach: That's right.
And And I don't know if we're helping her as much as revealing her. And so we're revealing what the nature intended when we were living in T because the a LS and MS didn't exist a few decades ago. It's like we've created these syndromes and then we run around finding the technology, thinking that the technology needs to heal the disease, when in fact the technology reveals what did we eliminate in our relationship to Nature first.
And so we need to be hesitant when we say we found something that cures a disease. Because it's probably just revealing why we got the disease. And so that, that's where the technology can be so helpful is like, oh, well now we gotta go find that specific frequency in nature and ask what were we doing in 1800 that kept a LS out of the system?
Because it's too expensive to let somebody develop a neurodegenerative disorder and then give 'em treatment. And the fact is, we never get them back to baseline with technology. We might improve them. We there, but we've never created a fetus inside of a uterus like that. That level of intelligence, that level of nature you know, I, I marvel at it because it's, you know, you look at just the headlines that glimpsed through as I walked through a hotel lobby this morning.
I don't know why we're talking about Elon Musk so much at all, but we talk about that guy all the time and we're so enamored with the fact that he and his engineers have filled steel tubes with liquid rocket fuel and lit them on fire and they shoot up in the air and then they fall back to earth. And that thing is going over and over and everybody's like, oh my gosh, that.
Meanwhile, there are tens of thousands of women that this morning gave birth to a baby that's self-organized in her womb.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Zach: And there's no headlines. The disease of humans is, we cannot see the miracle of life.
Dave: It's, it is so profound. And I've often said, you know, people say, what's the the biggest thing you can do for longevity?
It's like, have a healthy mom.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Right. How many generations
Zach: back does that affect? Epic? I mean, it's been pretty easy in mice to map it back 40 generations, but to go back 40 generations and find out that that 40th generation back is still contributing to your epigenetic genetic patterns suggest that it never stops.
Right. And so, mm-hmm. The genetic memory is, is long lived. And this is why we have to ca we have to change our relationship to our concept of life right now. Because if we keep trying to, you know, hack our way out of 40 generations or 4,000 generations of trauma that was baked into this belief that we're separate from nature and the, all the scarcity and the fear and the guilt, the shame, and all the patterns of war battles, you know, come outta that.
We we're, we're hopeless. We, we've got 68% infertility rates in a number of different places. We've got sperm counts of plum by 60% are still going down. We're the US population where our birth rate as three weeks ago PO published was 1.61. Anything under 2.1 is extinction. Every 10th below is another generation shorter.
Mm-hmm. And so we are a couple generations from extinction in our own country and Japan's already going extinct. We've got 30 million empty residences in Tokyo in the next five or 10 years. 'cause they're just aging out. 'cause there were no children. And that's what extinction looks like and the human brain, because we haven't gotten to the point where we're seeing, you know, fundamental collapse of city systems yet because everybody's been pushed 20 years out in the US Right.
At the most. Yeah, at the most. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think the US is already shrinking at 1.61. If, if it wasn't for immigration right now, we would have, you know, totally empty cities. But why aren't you going around like Elon and just having babies all left and right? There's part of me that thinks that I, I'm getting ready for that.
There's part of me that thinks that I'm, I'm approaching a moment where I'm gonna become an energetic memory of the possibilities of who I could have been. But if any other point before this, I would've just passed on the genetics of all the trauma, the 40 generations before
Dave: me. So you were doing the personal development work before you go out and have a bunch of babies?
That's right. So more than one mother. What's
Zach: the deal here? I don't know what it's gonna look like in a few years. Like we're gonna have such a fundamental collapse of biology that I think that, you know, we can't imagine. The process that's gonna restore this, this species, it's gonna have to be a very intense, you know, collaboration because there's gonna be such a fine, that little eye of the needle that we gotta shoot through now, if we're gonna make, make this gap so that we can stay in play, it's gonna have to be a collaboration that's not gonna be like relationships and marriages and open relationships.
It's gonna be how high of a frequency of authenticity can a human create to remember the original design? Mm-hmm. The original birthright of humans. And that takes an enormous amount of. Ritual and ceremony around a human to remember what it is. 'cause it has to be in an environment where it breaks the story.
You've got to lose the story of humans being separate from anything. And to do that, you've gotta get into these very high frequency states. And that's what we call shamanic states. It's what we call, you know things. And so when you go and sit with African shamans in the bush, you don't sit for long because they're gonna activate you so intensely that you're gonna reach these frequencies where the only options are really to dance, scream, move, chant.
Have sex. These, the, the intensity of these rituals have been long known and they've been used to save us many, many times. And so we remember even how to do this, which is we need to stop being genetic expressions of one ancestor to another because when we just communicate genetically through the ancestry, we're doomed because we're passing on all of the collective trauma with each generation.
It gets worse. Three generations without healing an epigenetic wound, it becomes a germline mutation. So now it's not an epigenetic modification, it's a new gene modification. Mm-hmm. And so now that's gonna be every single generation to come. Yeah. We've had that for generations and generations.
Generations. And my sperm and the DNA in it are the memory of the human trauma as a collective. And so as I. Started to experience all of this. I'm like, I don't think that I wanna be part of that. And so how do I become something new? How would I pass on new information instead of the old information? I would have to come into a moment of frequency where all of the, the genetic trauma is somehow erased.
And the only way that you can do that is actually send your protons back in time. And this happens. And if it had never happened and if I, then I wouldn't put this out there. But I have seen it happen hundreds of times in my own patients.
Music: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Zach: And it's called spontaneous remission in the medical charts, right?
And so when spontaneous remission occurs, I mean you, the most classic ones are like fourth, fourth stage cancer tumors in the brain. And then suddenly the person's talking again, and now they're walking again, they're eating. And then finally the doc is like, we should scan that person, right? And you scan 'em and there's no evidence the tumor was ever there.
In a healing process, you end up with scar tissue, you end up things and you know all of the cell signaling pathways. It's very complicated process to heal and it leaves behind this matrix so that when we say, here's a technology that grows brain cells and people with a LS, what's happening is there's fiber fibrous tissue and there's scar tissue.
And so you're crawling back to some sort of function, but you are healing. You're not spontaneously remitting. And so you're healing something and you will end up slightly better than you were before in a good scenario, maybe a lot better than you were before, but not where you were originally intended to be.
To, to do the, the original intention, you could, you have to do a spontaneous remission. The only way to do that is happens, has to happen instantaneously across the whole system, which means it needs basically an operating system update to the original design. And so that operating system update is what we're trying to do.
And so journey of intrinsic health and our immersive experience that we're doing is seven days of intensely putting people in these spaces of high vibrational experience where they can suddenly access that original information. Mm. And if they can see the original program for just a millionth of a second.
Yeah. All of the protons will go revert to their original design. And so the proton will forget that there was 40 generations of trauma between the insult and this cancer. And the tissue simply goes back to express what it intended, which was human. Human, which is to say an ecosystem expressing itself.
And beauty,
Dave: it's got a lot of relationship to what we do at 40 years of Zen and in fact, heavily meditated. My new book, I talk about these altered states, including the shamanic states and tantra and a lot of the things that we just covered. And people will go through their own life and they'll use some called the reset process to completely remove the, the echoes of trauma from this life.
And when they're done with that, they kind of split into two groups actually three groups. One of them is they'll go into their experience in the womb and then they undo the trauma they experienced in utero and. From there. Some of them are just called like, I feel like I'm gonna heal generational trauma.
And and you're saying, what do you mean heal generational trauma? There are techniques and you know them 'cause, you know, shamanic stuff. And so they do that and like, oh my gosh. Like I did that. And then my mother I haven't talked to in a long time just called me this evening and I don't know why. And you've seen this all the time with your patients as well.
Right? It's beautiful. It's beautiful. So they, they're healing. So we can do that. I, I know we can do it. You can measure it. And for the westerners who just don't believe, you just go experience it. Well, I don't believe my experience. Well then let's freaking measure it and prove it. Mm-hmm. And then some other people, they're saying, I don't know why, but I feel like I had a past life and I didn't believe in those, but I had all these visions, so I'm gonna go let go of that trauma.
What's up with past lives and trauma? What's your take on that
Zach: when you start to kind of comprehend the DNA strand as a memory of everything mm-hmm. That's ever been there in the biology, this concept that we have around ancestors, ghosts, you know, spirits, all of these things. I think you can kinda imagine that, is that the energetic version of the DNA database?
Right. And so if, if DNA is the memory of biology, I think the, the energetic world or these past life experiences are, the database have felt realities. We don't think very well. We're not a highly intelligent species, but we feel really, really well. And I think that's why we've been left to, to, to survive here.
And I think that's why we have so many advocates in this energetic space, these multidimensional spaces worked with a lot of people around the world now that are communicating on a daily basis with non-human. You know, life forms and they have lots of different names for 'em, and we create human stories around those which are immediately kind of depolarizes it or polarizes it.
Disempowers it and polarizes people to like think conspiracy theory or whatever it is. But the fact is this is how indigenous wisdom came and be, was not in human isolation. It was actually in human connection. Mm-hmm. Where suddenly in a cave, somebody had this moment of singularity and then they were surrounded by so much information.
Yeah. If you ever anybody's ever done a dark retreat, just the opposite of darkness, there's just so much light
Music: mm-hmm.
Zach: Around us that's not being perceived by the eye until you take away the light spectrum that the eye was sensing, and then suddenly you realize, I am a sensory machine that is sensing the entire cosmos, generations forwards backwards, upside down.
I can, I can actually sense multidimensional realities where just, you know, outside of our current experience thing, there's. Teaming life, other entities in these other vibrational forms that then can come and communicate across that dimensional reality because you've reached this state of hi super sense.
Mm-hmm. And that super sense is really where the, the shamonic, you know, energies are trained the Kogi or the famous ones mm-hmm. Who are raising their kids from age three onwards. You know, sometimes years, sometimes decade. But those kids that are destined to be their lead shamans would be put in the dark Yes.
And be trained into to whole site. And so they can see what's happening all over the world. They can see the future, they can see all these things. So they become very prophetic in a sense, by just being able to use the body for what it was designed for. So the human body does not think well, but it feels wonderfully.
And if we start teaching our children how to feel more fully and, and en encourage them not to, they don't need any encouragement. They simply don't need to be programmed. With emotions. Mm-hmm. And say emotions are the, the con configuration of feelings. And it's, I think of emotions now, a lot the same as high fructose corn syrup, fructose in an apple freaking fantastic.
That include things like love as well as hate. Oh yeah. Yeah. These are all emotions. All of these are reduced frequencies that then are perturbation of the original nature of it. So a feeling is a complex waveform that'll go through the entire thing. And if you allow yourself to feel, you realize it's not static, it's constantly in motion.
Mm-hmm. And it has completely different, you know, valleys and peaks in it. And so if you really go into unconditional love, for example, you're gonna find a lot of grief. Because the reality is when you're in that state of witnessing beauty, and I experienced this with a rose the other day somebody hand me a rose like, this is the best smelling rose.
Smell this, smell it. My whole brain goes in next saying, holy smokes. And your first instinct, at least mine, is, I wanna smell that again. And you go to try to smell it again. You can't, 'cause your olfactory bulb doesn't allow you to smell the same thing twice. And so you, the next time it's like, oh, maybe a faint version.
And then you kind of give it a second. You try it a third time and there's nothing, it's like, how could I only smelled that rose once? And the, and the answer is somewhere around this, this ethereal state of the feeling of the rose is still traveling. Through that initial essence of the rose that hit my nose was only the beginning of the real feeling of rose.
And if I would stop attributing it all to the scent of it, and I would let it travel through my body, I would find that the rose itself can detox trauma, can remove that ancestral trauma in my lungs because it's now being allowed to be witnessed to me, and I'm witnessing the rose in me, and now I'm feeling it in my bloodstream.
And so the whole feeling of rose is so far beyond the little scent that's given it, or the color that it, it it hits my eye with. And of course when I look at a rose and say that Rose is red, it's actually every other color except red, the only thing it's not is red. And it reflects that off its surface 'cause it's not red.
And then our eye picks it up like that's red. And then rose is like, screw you. I'm everything but red. And so our perceptions, whether it be our scent or our eyes mm-hmm. Are giving us such a reduced version of reality. They're all lies, they're all perturbations. And maybe full out lies. Color is a full out lie.
I think scent is actually, well those don't have to take it from me, but the Kabbalah oldest science on Earth says scent is the only human sense that is correct. More so than touch even. Yeah. Because I always would've thought vibration and scent are the two. Yeah. It's interesting 'cause uh, the, I don't know the entire reason for this, but I think it is interesting.
Scent is the only thing that doesn't come through a neuron.
Dave: And that was a very primordial bacterial membrane way of sensing, even before touch. The olfactory bulb
Zach: is the original way to feel.
Music: Hmm.
Zach: And it doesn't, it, the olfactory bulb doesn't make sense as a thing. Like we don't know how it works. It's a black box of miracles, so we should all just have more gladed, air freshener
Dave: ride.
That's right. Blade for sure. I, I think wearing chemical fragrances is one of the rudest things you can ever do. It's like walking around, punching other people in the olfactory
Zach: ball. It's true, it's true. It's true. I think that's true. But then if you take the, the emotion version of that, you realize we're programming our children to go seek love, to not fear each other.
Don't have any guilt. Don't shame each other. Don't get angry. You know, a, a kid doesn't understand what that is when you yell at a 3-year-old. Yeah. Like, stop being angry. Like, they're like, what are you even talking about? Right. They have to be steadily trained. Like, you're feeling this and this is what we're gonna call it.
You're expressing this and therefore we're gonna call it this. So pretty soon that kid's gone from the experience of so much pleasure in something to then the loss of that thing the next moment, which then will take them into this anger or, or this grief process with the five low five emotions of anger.
And then they parents yelling at them, don't be angry now. Mm-hmm. Stop throwing the fit. Instead of realizing that's the long wave form of that kid having just experienced unconditional love for the first time.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Zach: And in that process, they had to lose it because everything, the center of the rose or the face of a friend is going to disappear.
I remember holding onto the leg of a table and my mother trying to drag me out from under the table 'cause I didn't wanna leave my best friend's house.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Zach: Screaming, you know, she thought I was throwing a fit. I was experiencing unconditional love. Mm-hmm. I wanted to continue to feel what it felt like to be seen and heard and played by my friend and that.
Is what we are missing. When we start to boil things down to an emotional framework, we're telling each other that you're, you shouldn't be this or you should be this. Yeah. And it's, it's aborting the reality that everything in life is there for a sensory experience of itself and everything is experiencing so much feeling.
And if we then go empower kids to continue to feel and stop trying to boil it down to an emotional matrix for them to mentalize, emotions are the mental abstraction of feeling ultimately. Mm-hmm. Yes. And just like fructose, we see the same result. Fructose in an apple is one of the most important Ayurvedic tools out there.
I've seen apples cure all kinds of things. Apple day, keep the doctor away, all the things. But if you stew an apple in the morning with cloves and cinnamon as the Ayurvedic and nutritionist would show you. The amount of inflammation that will reduce is insane. And the amount of coherence that you can get in cell cell, singling and all that from the, a combination of that fiber and the pectin and the, and the fructose is magic.
And then you add those herbs in there and spices and all the alkaloids, it's, it's just too beautiful to even think about. But that fructose, you're so life-giving. And then you find a bunch of fructose and corn, then you chemically flip the molecule by a chemical reaction. Now it's the mire image. Same molecule, same atoms, same things.
But just in the mire image, now you have high fructose corn syrup, which doesn't occur in nature. So you can patent it. Well, super. We can take corn, which is a dollar bushel, and then we can patent it and take this thing. We can sell it for more and it works out well. And so, high fructose corn syrup, same molecule as fructose.
Is not recognized as a sugar in the body. And so when you eat, it's a different isomer. It's, it's just the emmic. Okay. And so it's, it's the mere image and so it's the emmic of fructose and when the liver sees that, so if you drink a coke, your blood sugar doesn't go up. Yeah. 'cause fructose doesn't raise blood sugar much high fructose cordin syrup doesn't get metabolized the liver as a sugar at all.
It gets turned into a triglyceride. Yeah. So your triglyceride shoot up. Mm-hmm. And so we're eating all this ous corn syrup and they say that it's a calorie, but it's not, it's actually being stored as this kind of in inflammatory driver of the triglyceride there. And so I'm very sure that emotions are the same way.
'cause I've seen it in all of my patients now. And so it turns out in my clinic we had this camera from Russia that, uh, was an induced energy field. So it's a big voltage across the fingertips,
Dave: AIAN kind of thing.
Zach: Yeah. Instead, aian, which is a glow, and you're inducing a plasma discharge from the surface of the finger, and then you can take a video of that explosion and it'll show you the pattern of, of entropy or stress or, or centropy or, or kind of organization in the different organ systems based on the reflexology map.
So we got this very incredible map and we imaged tens of thousands of patients over time. And what we ended up proving was nothing more than the fact that 9,000 years of Chinese medicine was Right. Right. So all the technology we needed to just trust the human iterations of science and what observing healing is works.
And what the Chinese had done over those thousands of years was to be able to pinpoint where emotions are stored in the body to cause disease. And it's very specific, unconditional, I'm sorry. Unresolved grief for a loved one's death will store a very specific section of the lung. Mm-hmm. And that's where they end up getting their emphysema or their lung cancer or whatever it is, years later.
And so we ended up being able to image that over and over again with our patients. And we were using a motion code therapy with a series of magnets. You identify which dominant motion, then you bring that emotion to the surface and you run magnets over the, the brain. I. And it just resets the programming.
It's just like wiping a, a magnet across a disc. You erase it. Wow. And so you erase the memory bank of that emotion and then the body goes back to its original un unperturbed state. So we would image people, show them their emotional patterning as disease in the body. 'cause you can see where all the entropy is.
Put them through a motion code therapy and then re-image them and show 'em that they just rebooted. Mm-hmm. And then they have coherence where there was incoherence before. And so it was very amazing to realize that just like high fructose corn syrup, unable to process as a carbohydrate, an emotion. Now abstraction of a complex feeling can't be moved through the body.
So it has to store and create an inflammatory naus. And so emotions of the high versus corn syrup of the feeling state of a human being. And because we do all of our stories around emotion telling, we are programming each other with trauma every time we tell a story. And we have to, I think, learn how to sing rather than tell a story.
Can you just tell me a story? I did and I programmed you intensely with it. And so that's why we gotta stop. So you're traumatized using words and sing intensely. 'cause now you gotta go back and reorganize everything. And now the danger is you're gonna believe everything I'm saying. That's unlikely. And so, no, you're good at avoiding danger.
But the, when we believe each other's stories mm-hmm. We lead ourselves away from the divine. We lead ourselves out of our own truth. When we believe our own stories, that's when we are the greatest danger to ourselves. And so our own stories become the most entrenched and therefore the Yeah thing. It can be ego, it can be shame, it can be any version of it.
The stories we tell ourselves are the most, you know, deflating to our own full potential.
Dave: Where did those stories come from? Our abandonment disorder. I believe those stories come from mitochondrial network attempts to survive. That was scary. I'm I. Individually, a dumb little bacteria is a network of bacteria.
I'm very fast, but don't understand time or context. So there was a threat to the system. I stored the threat. I recognized another similar situation in the world. So I donated motion to make the dumb person sitting in the brain that keeps getting in the way of life to do what I want. If they're manipulating us, shoot holes In my theory,
Music: no.
Zach: I would just say the mitochondria are, are not, if, if mitochondria were an end on the cells, they wouldn't bother. They're delivering other cells. The, the moment we distill something down to it is just this thing, and that's the thing that's doing the thing I. It's the posis that's doing the thing. It's the complex internet of relationships of life that allow life to occur.
You, you can argue
Dave: that you can't separate the mitochondria from the world around, and
Zach: therefore can't,
Dave: you can't, I The mitochondria dies means you take the gut microbiome away. So it's all interconnected. It, it is all interconnected. Earlier you said something interesting, you said that when you're doing the healing work you're doing now that you bring eight people in when 40 years of Zen has a full compliment, it's eight people.
Joe Dispenza who's speaking at the bio conference this year, by the way, I'd love to have you speak at the conference again. Mm-hmm. He does healing work and I've done it with him. Really profound work in groups of eight. Lynn Mc Taggart, who's been on the show, has a called The Power of Eight, what is with the number
Zach: eight?
It's the most stable geometry in the universe. And so, uh, more than three. I thought triangles were Mm, no triangle actually doesn't even exist. It has to have a fourth point. So tetrahedron exists, which is, uh, a three dimensional triangle. Mm-hmm. And that's the most stable geometry. But its stability increases.
Then when you put two of 'em together, and so. Eight points double te adhesion. That's the, that's actually the, the geometry of a black hole. And so when eight points come together, they're now working in sacred geometry constellation to absorb information and light energy and then generate life. And so you become a generative Enogen engine for life.
And when you put those eight together, and that's at least part of the, the geometry below the surface there,
Dave: all of the shapes we just described. Yeah. And this goes back to sacred geometry, ancient Greek stuff. Like even saying the word tetrahedron was like a a capital offense at the very creation of three dimensional geometry stuff way back in ancient Greece.
So if you look at. Eight cells, and whereas I go just right after mm-hmm. Fertilization, the first steps of cell division, all of the platonic forms can be drawn within those eight, that little cluster eight cells between where the membranes hit. Mm-hmm. And so is that multicellular or life the very basis of all of this?
Zach: Well, yeah. I mean, again, we're not bodies with souls. We're souls with bodies. And so the, the formation of those cellular relationships that would be in a zygote and those early divisions are inherently going to follow the sacred geometry of, of the soul. And so I, I believe that each soul does have variation.
Uh, that's what gives us unique identity. And so my soul quantum entangled with the egg of my mother the moment I was conceived. Mm-hmm. And at that point forward, every single cell division after there would know exactly. Its its core identity. I can take the cells from one identical twin and put it in another one and it'll destroy it immediately as foreign material.
And so it's, it's not the cellular material. It's not the DNA, it's not the genes. It's not all of the things that we keep thinking were bodies with souls or whatever. It's not, the identity is not in the, in the cell. It's in the physics that designed the cell. Mm. And so. The fact that we have identities that are outside of the genetics and energetics of ourselves, very important, I think, to our life journey.
It will make us stop fearing death. It's permanent. This is a permanent state of you, and that I am is not going to disappear. That I am will always be I am. That I think is where things begin, where my zing happened, that got me distracted to mm-hmm. The bigger question was when, when you described the eight, uh, at the beginning, so the eight cells in that zygote, and actually even when it's 256.
At each of those initial cell divisions, all the cells are identical. Mm-hmm. And then suddenly this ball, it's basically a tumor. Yeah. Each cell is dividing exactly like the previous, suddenly there's, it goes from looking like a, a, a soccer ball to like a fist suddenly punches the side of it and turns into a lima bean, like it develops asymmetry always at the exact same celebration, which is so mysterious to me.
And it, again, it, it's all echoed through all the shamanic stuff and the number of beads on a prayer among all of the things like we've been screaming. Our psyche psyches have been screaming with all of this information for the beginning of time. And our modern, you know, hyper divorced science that we practice as, as medical world today is just beginning to glance back to the realities that all of our indigenous sciences have been preaching since the beginning of, you know, thought it's all, say your geometry all the way through.
And asymmetry is a very important process of. Life without asymmetry, you can't actually propagate life. And this is actually really poignant to the moment that we're in right now. And so, I I, I don't wanna go deep into into the whole conversation because it's too long, but just as a nutshell in human biology, that relies on energy, concentration of light energy to produce enough information to pro promulgate.
And one of the very first things that's required is differentiation of the sex. You and I are living out two different hypothesis for life, and I love our friendship for that is like, we actually are doing the exact opposite thing with very similar beginning premise. And so we're doing the opposite things really.
What, what do you think about that? Like, I've done the shamanic training, I've No, no. I mean, our experiences are pointing us in the same direction. And so we're in a begin and we're in end at the same place. Gotcha. But what's happened between those two points? We're all, every human's gonna begin and end in the same place.
We're all gonna have some version of our shamonic reawakening and we're gonna find ourselves at the last breath that we're gonna take. We all go to the same. We came in alone, we're in the lead alone. Yep. But the way in which we've done the, those bookends just happens to be much different and we keep coming to the same conclusions.
Yep. And I love that about, it's like you've got a path that you're going down, I've got a path. And we keep looking back at each other. It's like, are you seeing that? Yeah, I'm seeing that. Alright, let's keep going. Mm-hmm. You know, and without the triangulation, I would start to doubt, doubt what I'm seeing.
And so I need the other perspective. And I really appreciate the way that you're very clear on your path and you've been taking a lot of people with you on that. And you know, millions of people have seen truth in what you're doing and are, thank you are pursuing that. And they've applied it to their own lives and they found their own truths.
And they're you, so you've got this incredible experiment going on with, with millions of people involved. I would say I'm way less successful at getting, you know, a, the story out. But I've got a small cohort of people that are going in other direction and we keep looking back at each other and we do keep coming to the same conclusion.
Yeah.
Dave: I,
Zach: I
Dave: don't know that we're going opposite directions at all, and I, I'm perceiving it a little differently.
Most of the last 25 years I've had, uh, I started out with a kind of a mechanistic, atheistic, computer science view of reality, just based on childhood and all that. Yeah. About, oh, 20, yeah, about 25 years ago, had some, you know, experiences with breath work and all. I'm like, oh, the world's a little more complex than I thought, so I'm gonna figure that out.
And so, while I figured all the biological systems and things like that, that, you know, my first book was on fertility and. You know, life begins in the soil. To the extent that I'm building regenerative farms with special soil additives, like there's a lot of commonality there. I came to the conclusion that I'm simultaneously rational and mystical and that they don't have to conflict with each other at all.
And you can just accept that something is both true if you put on this lens and it's false if you put on this other lens so I can accept two different stories for the same thing. And I've traveled around the world and I've been to the holiest mountain in the world, and I've studied with the greatest masters I've had, shamanic initiation, multiple lineages.
I just talk about it a lot less because to make biohacking happen in the world. If I bring that up in the first year. Dude, I brought up earthing and light therapy 15 years ago. And breath work and that was enough. Right? And I've been adding sort of unveiling over the years and if you have a chance to read or listen to heavily meditated, I think it'll make sense.
'cause the core of what I've done over the last 11 or so years, I. Is a relentless practice of forgiveness to, to decharge the emotions that we just talked about. Right. So that's at the core of what I do. Absolutely. And
Zach: we're gonna, we're land the same place. I guarantee you. We're in land commonalities here.
No, no. And there, there can't be much difference because we're both having a human experience. Right? Yeah. So we're in this little plane of eight feet of reality that we're expressing ourselves in. But I, I guess where we differ is in quite a number of places. First thing, I walked in your house, you took me into your supplement room.
I mean, I've just never seen anything like it. It's more supplement bottles than I've ever seen in my life. And so, and you said, well, I take, I only take this, this section here, you had your arm spread. I'm like, that's like 150 bottles there, or something like that. And I asked you if you were hungry. You're like, no, I'm not hungry much anymore.
Yeah. And so you're eating enough, you know, capsules there. Stem cells done them Oh, many, probably more than anybody else, I would say. That's what I thought. I, I, mm-hmm. I would put you in that peptides. Totally. Yeah. Pep peptides, stem cells supplements to beat the band. What other cool technologies you're doing here in the house?
You got all these devices around? Most of it. I don't even recognize. All of them. Yeah, all of them. You're doing all of the technology? All of them. My mitochondria alike. Yeah. The path that I'm taking, there's only one supplement in my house is a liquid extract from fossil soil.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Zach: And. There's no technologies in my house.
There's no mm-hmm. Biohacking devices. I've never had stem cells in my body, nor will I ever, because I'm a little bit concerned about the quantum entanglement of trying to put somebody else's cells that were impinged with their identity into me. I think there's a reaction that's inevitable there. I think we have a lot of data in our own colleagues.
One of our good friends has been, you know, long in hospital now the last few months after severe injury, more than one of 'em from the stem cells. And so we tend to put these things out there as a promise, and we then make lots of money off of them. And when we find out that they're hurting people, including our own colleagues that are selling the very products that just put in the hospital
Dave: bacterial infection though, not a stem cell that from the stem cells?
Zach: Yeah.
Dave: Well, it was from the injection. I don't think they were in the cells. Or you think it was in the
Zach: cells? Well, I mean, it was in the cell preparation. I mean, it was, it literally the technology which gets the stem cells out of an embryo, all this stuff is what killed them. Mm-hmm. Nearly killed them, you know?
So it's like. But that doesn't get mentioned out in the public. We don't, you know, we don't wanna talk about it 'cause it's uncomfortable and it's sad 'cause our friend is really suffering and, and yet there's a real danger that we don't tell the public. Like we're kind of playing with fire here and, and we don't know what we're doing.
We're trying and we need to have a lot of grace towards one another. 'cause it's like, you know, this is a pretty complex system that we're diving into. Okay. It's called life, it's called mm-hmm. Quadrillions of Cells that we don't even know what they all do. We, we know nothing. And now we're trying to put all these technologies at play and so I'm trying the non-tech version.
Mm-hmm. And I'm trying the Super Tech version, which you're now going full into the Shamanic stuff and everything else. I'm babying that stuff you've been doing a lot longer than me, it sounds like. But I'm, I have from an early standpoint started to recognize that if I try to micromanage anything of the divine, I, I, I can fall short of my potential.
The more I turn over to the miracle within me, the more things generate in ways in which no technology will ever discover. And so I'm in a constant surrender experiment. And, and you, and, and there's absolutely no judgment on this. I'm just recognize that you and, and all of the colleagues in the biohacking world are each taking another glance back at the nature that builds possibility of life to happen.
And like we said, the technologies can be hugely important, revelatory things of like, ah, that was the nature deficit that set up that condition. Sure. And so I'm actually filming a a TV series right now where we do exactly that. We go around the world, we look through single aspects of nature and the indigenous wisdom that sits with that nature at 12 of the diseases of the west.
To realize everything's nature deficit disorder. Mm-hmm. And here we can actually see through technology of indigenous science or you know, modern biohacking, we can see where we went wrong, where, where we disconnected, and then we can track the consequences of the population level back to the chronic disease epidemic we have today.
So I've never done stem cells, I've never done peptides, I've never done a probiotic. I've never smoked a cigarette. So I'm in a kind of a, a zone of curiosity of like what would happen if I just went into life like a 3-year-old every day, what. Because when I was three, when I was five, I couldn't have given us rats outs about anybody's stories about myON.
Just so excited to build the next fort. And so I was up in trees and I was out in mud puddles, and I was down in Gullys looking for stuff. And my buddies and I were always building stuff all the way into my twenties. We were building cars and garages, and I just had this overwhelming drive for curiosity of what else could come through, what could even become more fun.
And so I don't, I don't know if I'll live long and I'm not terribly concerned about that. 'cause I have lived so much life in this lifespan, and my lifespan has been so full of beauty. I have felt so much in this lifetime. I have felt so much massive heartbreak. Mm-hmm. I, I just can't even measure it. I, and in finding the heartbreak, I have found out how much I love things and, and for the amount of grief I have processed through my lungs, I know that I have really, truly experienced unconditional love to be able to grieve the loss of the things that I have found beautiful in this world.
This is a very magical time we're in and so every time I, I try to reach for a technology 'cause Lord knows a lot of 'em came into my clinic over time. Every time I tried to apply one, I found myself distracted from that con, that feeling inside of me. That happens when I recognize the miracle. Mm. And if I just stay connected to the miraculous nature, then I stop worrying about how long I'm gonna live and I start really, really experiencing being alive.
I. And that, that feels really good inside of me. And so I'm actually super enjoying my el elder years here. My kids have grown up and I've gotten to see my grandson, uh, through my son's marriage growing up. And he, he just started college. He's going to medicine. Like I can't even believe this being, like, he's just so spectacular.
And every day he's showing me. 'cause his generation is, is, is not, didn't have enough energy to polarize. Yeah. And so we stopped gendering in the womb some time ago. And it's becoming more in evident, evident with these recent generations. But it's been decades since we had enough energy in the embryonic process to go from neutral to male female.
And so you have a phenotype that looks male, but the fact is that the. Energy that was there to pulse the testosterone, to pulse the estrogen at the right time didn't fully form the nuclear differentiation that was gonna say, you know what, I'm not both. I'm one or the other. Mm. It takes a lot of energy to polarize and that's why everything repeats for those first 256 cell divisions.
And then suddenly there's enough intelligence, there's enough concentrated energy to differentiate.
Music: Mm.
Zach: And so at every stage of differentiation of an organism, it takes an enormous, another jump in in energy. And right now we are as a species, no longer able to gender in the womb at the same. Divisional kind of polarization that we have over the eons.
And so for that, we're losing gender. It's not a social movement. It's not thing you can, we can have all kinds of recognition that storytelling can be difficult on people's minds and all this, but the fact is we are biologically expressing exactly what's going on in the womb due to a failure of mitochondrial metabolism in the womb.
And so we're at this non gendering state, and what that generation is showing me is that we probably needed that journey to find out how much we could love. And so my kids' generation, they did the L-G-B-T-Q thing that my generation had made and watched my daughter and her whole performing arts group in New York go through that whole journey in spades.
And so they lived into that. And then just in the last five years, I've seen them letting go of the alphabet soup and doing what my grandson's generation is doing, which is. I am. You are. I am too. You are. I am. I love you. Mm. They're connecting on levels that we haven't seen before and then we created a pandemic that broke their relationships.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Zach: That generation was about to cause a revolution at such a grand scale. Yeah. And if they hadn't been broken up, I think we already be done with the revolution. Mm-hmm. Because I watched my grandson graduate high school last fall and they did the typical weird thing. I don't, do you know where graduation ceremonies come from?
That's a weird
Dave: It's awesome. Planet. Some cult. A cult. It's black robes and
Zach: weird hats. It freaked me out or something. I forgot how weird it was. Yeah. And anyway, they're marching around the field and there weird caps and gowns and. All the professors or the teachers were walking first, and then in the last 50 meters, they kind of lined up on both sides of the track and all the kids came through and they're clapping the kids through and 4 28 kids coming through.
And my grandson was one of the last to come through. And when he hit that line, there was five teachers that just couldn't help themselves and they broke ranks and went and hugged that kid. Aw. That that's what this generation is gonna show us, is that when we lose the polarity.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Zach: And we start to come to neutral.
We're gonna realize that we're all the same freaking thing. Mm-hmm. And we all rely on each other. And without polarity, we're not going to survive. And so we need to start to re-embrace the polarity of differences. Yeah. And so that I enjoy the polarity of differences between us. 'cause without those differences, we wouldn't even have a conversation.
It would be boring to have me
Dave: here. And so it's totally true. One of the, the frameworks that my girlfriend, uh, Christina taught me, you know, we we're doing heavy duty relationship coaching. And when you do like typ of the way people see the world, about half of people will seek commonality. Like, oh, you know what, what do we have in common?
And half the world will seek differences. And it doesn't cross with age or gender or race or anything. It's kind of randomly distributed. And so if you're someone who seeks commonality you know, say you're like, I, I have a whatever, you know, I have a, a Ferrari, I'd be like, oh, me too. And you'd be like.
Bastard. Mm-hmm. You're trying to one up me if you're a different seeker. And if you're a commonality, see, you'd be like, that's cool. We both have Ferraris. Let's go driving. And so if you're different seeking, you'd say, I have a Ferrari. And, and I'd say, well, I have a Porsche. And then you'd be like, oh cool.
We're different. Let's go driving. Right? Yeah. And so to me, that's one of those lenses on reality where I recognize that I'm always commonality seeking and that half the world will think that that's negative and half will think it's cool. And so that, because I know that about myself, I'm also like, okay, I love the differences.
'cause that's where all the learning comes from. Exactly. Like what do you know that I don't? Yeah. Right. And so just understanding, I have these lenses and some of them I'm not aware of and growing awareness of my own biases. That may be genetic, they may be early childhood, they may be spiritual. I don't know where the hell they come from.
So I'm like, how many different lenses can I install? I. How many different apps on the phone in my brain can I saw that let me perceive things that I wouldn't otherwise know. And like that's kind of the basis of how I'm trying to figure out the world. So I would forecast based on that, that you are a differences seeker and that I'm a commonality seeker.
Does that seem like a, that's spot on. Yeah. That's definitely how I've lived in my life, for
Zach: sure. Yeah. Got it. So I can piss you off by saying me too profoundly. Yeah, no, I think, and, and that's the beauty of it, is the more we look into the differences, the more we find the commonalities. It,
Music: they're,
Zach: they're polarities.
I mean, difference in commonality is the polarity, right? Yeah. I mean, honestly, you will not find a difference that doesn't point to the commonality. Mm-hmm. And nailed again, that's why I really enjoy sitting with you, is it's fun. We are coming to the same conclusion over and over again. Mm-hmm. And if we weren't looking through different lenses, then we wouldn't see the whole beauty of at all.
Mm-hmm. And I really admire the way that you've ignited individuals who, by my field would've been told they weren't empowered to know any of this stuff. You've shown us that a, a computer programmer can come along and really master a set of data that's relevant to their own body and then start to use your own body as your own laboratory.
And so I would just encourage everybody who's out there biohacking, is move beyond the data as much as you can and feel into the entire experience of being human. And then understand the data in the context of your feeling body. I love this. And you'll see a different beauty. You'll see a different beauty.
Dave: One of the secret goals of biohacking is to get the data to validate the ancient practices so that people who are in their heads can say, oh, there's data to support that I should do a shamanic initiation, or I should do a for breath work or forgiveness, or any of the altered states. And that's why I finally wrote a book about altered states because like, okay, there's so much evidence.
The ancient Chinese acupuncture system, you, you're like, oh yeah, we have our camera that does that, and we can measure it ly. So if I, if we go back 20 years in our lives, if you talked about meditation or acupuncture, you were an idiot. Yeah. And like there were, you would be shamed and like kicked out of med school.
Yeah. And ostracized. And now like, no. We have the data. Yeah. So you can't, you can't use that power of using the brain to shut down the spirit.
Zach: That did happen. I would say. I would say the world is not changing for the data though. I've actually seen, no, I've testified in front of the EPA over and over again on glyphosate.
I've seen absolutely no effect of that lab science. Oh, that's the government. They're not the world. Well, no, it's human. Yeah. It's, they're humans. You haven't seen any change awareness of glyphosate damages. It's increasing. I just sat with six senators who run the whole Senate ag committee and all this, and three of 'em didn't even know what glyphosate was.
And so, you know, they've put out a trillion dollars of tax putting You do offer them glasses of it. That's what I just drink this. So it's, the fact is you don't change minds through science, but you change science, you change the world through the feeling again. Mm-hmm. We started storytelling instead of the science about six years ago, and the traction was huge and suddenly we made it relevant to every single household.
So no longer did you have to be a scientist for me to tell you exactly which g proteins were being disrupted by glyphosate. I could tell you a story of what it felt like when a farmer stopped spraying it and when their family came back to the farm and they three x their bottom line and they got reconnected to their community.
'cause now they had a farmer's market on there. Beautiful. Now all the farmers like. Let's do that. You know, and they, and you don't talk about glyphosate at all. You talk about what is the human experience of plugging back in nature, and then you create the revolution. And so this is how the, the data is real.
And for some of us, it's enough. Like, as a scientist, I get fascinated by it and will take me down a path and then I will realize, oh, the data was pointing to me something more marvelous than I could have imagined, you know? Mm-hmm. And so, I, I would encourage everybody, you know, check your own addiction to the data, because I can guarantee you I spent 30 years of addiction to data.
And I, that's everybody here is triple board certified. And some people think that's quack. But the fact is that was 'cause I was afraid I did all of that because I was afraid I didn't know enough yet. Ah, and I was afraid to be sitting in ICUs with patients who were dying and with the possibility that I didn't know enough to throw absolutely all the best opportunities at them.
And so I was terrified of not enough data. And so triple board certified means that's probably the most frightened doctor you've ever met. And I found my way outta fear when I realized that the information wasn't in the data that I was looking for. And wow.
Dave: That's been my gift so profound. I start with an inner knowingness and I find the data that validates it and I've been using that as a way to unlock resistance so people will look for the inner feelings.
The great, the vast majority of, I didn't create the idea of putting butter and MCT in coffee. I intuited that and then I found the data that supported it and talked about it. So there's bes have been doing it for 9,000 years. Well, they're the ones who gave me the idea on butter and the mc t and all that.
And, and you know, so certainly this, the bets inspired me and just Mount Kage where I had this idea for it. 'cause I drank their yak butter tea. Right. So the, the idea though is, so I felt that, and then there were some upgrades, but we didn't have the science and the data other than try it. And you'll feel better.
And so there are so many people who are stuck in their heads and data serves as a key to give them permission to look down, right? They're like, oh, what's going on in the body? But there's so much programmed resistance. Well, if there's not science or data behind it, then I can't look. I'm like, there's enough to look.
And like, that's one of my major motivations for, for biohacking. Uh, my internal process is not data first, it's intuition first and felt sense first, and then questioning for the data, and then presenting the data to help people look deeper and to give them, well, now you have permission from your own head to do the thing that you would've never considered.
So does com Does computer hacking increase or decrease community? Oh, it's massively, massively. Community-based. I just had one of the, the top hackers in the world on the show. Who, who, uh, kind of was funny. We had dinner afterwards and it was, it's a community. It's a tight knit community of people who see the world through systems and they are constantly in contact with each other.
And it has its own culture and its own language. And in fact, when I signed his book I wrote a very old hacker code from my days in hacking and it, and he just laughed. I was like, oh my God, that's awesome. So the community is there and just like if you were to go, you know, to a, a healing conference, people doing energy healing, there's community there.
Like there's, so, there's just, it's a sub community I think. Yeah. That's
Zach: a sub-community.
Dave: Yeah.
Zach: And does the hacking itself create community? When you hack the common paradigm, does it plug you back into that community or does it polarize you against that community?
Dave: I think
Zach: it creates community. That's
Dave: been my experience with biohacking.
Zach: So when the
Dave: government's computers get hacked, it increases relationship to the government. The people who did the hacking. It, it doesn't, it also depends. There, there's two kinds of, of hackers out there. There's what we call polarity, black hat and white hat. Mm-hmm. White hats are explorers and they're figuring how stuff works, and black hats are like, how do I steal money and cause chaos?
Music: Mm-hmm.
Dave: It's the same thing if, if any system on earth, there's people trying to break shit and people are trying to make it better. No. Right. It depends on which, which one you are. Right.
Zach: I, I'm just wondering if what would happen if we tried bio weaving instead of biohacking? What is bio weaving? I think what you just, I mean, just thinking of that computer hacker getting into the bank code or the government code.
It's breaking your relationship as soon as you hack something.
Dave: No. It. Hackers are the ones who upgrade the world. The first hackers would take their cars in 1929 and say, I'm gonna make it better than stock. Uh, they were doing it so they could run moonshine. Right. And then after that, it was a conscious, how do things work so we can improve them?
That's the original meaning of Hacker. So what year was that? That was when was prohibition in 1920s?
Zach: Yeah. Alright, so 29 or something. All right. So, so would you say that the technology of computer hacking has improved our connection to nature or decreased our connection in nature or the last a hundred years?
Dave: The first technology that we developed was probably clothing.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Dave: And fire separated ourselves from nature of the clothing.
Zach: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Dave: I, I mean, so all technology, so the first, I mean, if you wanna go that way, the first users of technology were weavers.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Or people who cut skins and sewed them.
Music: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Right? So you could say all technology does that. However. We are part of nature. Everything we make is part of nature.
Zach: I agree with that strongly. It's not how we define nature, though. If you look up the Oxford English dictionary, it says that nature is everything in the firm of the earth, including minerals, plants, animals, as opposed to humans or anything humans have made.
Sounds like whoever wrote that definition needs an update. It sounds like that's human species has seen itself in opposition to nature for we're a part of nature. You can't separate us from nature. That seems pretty obvious. So why did we define it that way? And so the colonial mind that's so represented by the English language is this, the colonialism of, and all of its tragedies is produced, is because we thought we were separate from nature at a deep level.
And so we could develop technologies and sociopolitical systems that further divided us, further disconnected us from nature. And so I'm just wondering about this bio weaving thing because. When we hear that there's something in a hack, we feel like it's against us as a possibility. Wow. Yeah. And like the, the hackers where I'm from, they're, they see the go government computer system as part of their,
Dave: their health.
And well, there there's two flavors. There's a kind of hacker who might log into the government computer system and change some data to make the world a better place. Right? Oh look, you know, everyone's tax return just got tripled. Right? And if the person who does that is doing that because they believe that they're making the world a better place, they're gonna stop an injustice.
Okay? And someone else, they're gonna log in and hack it 'cause they wanna create chaos or they want to steal people's identity. It's all about the motivation and all about whether you were correct in your action with the motivation.
Zach: Well, it sounds
Dave: like
Zach: the outcomes would be both the same in both cases.
It would be a disaster for the entire economy if you tripled everybody's tax return and it would be a disaster if you can go the other direction and steal
Dave: stuff as well. So I'm not, I'm not convinced of that. The government seems like it can just print as much money as it wants and give it to other countries.
So they could just do some of that for their own citizens as well. And that might be a better thing.
Zach: Well that worked up until they did that and then the US dollar stopped being the reserve currency for the world. And there was, yeah, there was an immediate federal problem there. There was a balancing act there.
Mm-hmm. Um, but I guess I've just encouraging all of us to just maybe take a step back and wonder, do we really want hack biology or do we wanna start to see biology as our path forward? And then is there something to hack there or is there something to follow there? You
Dave: do you know the definition of biohacking?
I wanna hear it. It's the art and science of changing the environment around you and inside of you so you have control of your biology. And you could also say, so you have control of your state. It's how do you make the environment stronger and better, which makes you stronger and better? I guess the only part that we differ on is the control of your state.
I'm looking to be in a state of kindness and a state of non-reactivity so I can choose my state so I can show up in a way that is best for the world around me. And so to be chaotic for me is not a
Zach: goal. So the data, the data that you're getting from all of the biohacking is, is taking you towards kindness?
Absolutely.
Dave: Mm-hmm. In fact, I believe we're wired inside our mitochondria to be kind to our community. Just that we allocate our energy first to fear, then to hunger than to reproduction and if we have any energy left because the system was strong enough, it goes into friend for, into community. And it's an energy allocation problem fundamentally in that we are wired to give to our community, and our community becomes a source of nourishment.
And if there's any energy left after that, we put it into evolution and like that, that's a mitochondrial operating system imperatives. And the upgrade that I'm working to install societally is let's allocate a little bit less energy to fear so we can have more attention to what we're eating and putting in our body and where it comes from.
But
Zach: isn't this pursuit of longevity, the fear of death?
Dave: It can be if, if you're into anti-aging or not dying, there's actually two different groups, and I've been in the longevity field for 25 years. Some groups are terrified of death. They're gonna freeze their bodies. They're like, I, death is horrifying.
There's another group of which I'm a member, which is like, I'd like to die at a time. And by a method of my choice, I have no fear of death whatsoever. Like I'm, I'm totally, totally down for it when my time is there. No fear, no fighting, full integration, and. I don't really like pain. Nobody does, but I'll accept it.
And so wanting to have the most energy possible and the most positive impact and to enjoy every curiosity there is on the planet and maybe make it even better, that is also in the longevity field. And the flip side of that polarity is, oh my God, I'm gonna die. I can't die. That energetic is not it's repellent to me.
Actually, I, I don't, I don't resonate with it at all. 'cause then you're just in fear all the time. Right. It also depends on whether you've done the work that I've suspect you've done where like. In fact, you already said it. You know, death is really not the end. It's just a state change. So
Zach: you've stated a lot on your social media that you're, I think it was 180 years or something like that.
What's, what's that? My goal is to, where did that come from?
Dave: Oh, it's 50% better than our current best. That's it. Was it 50% better? Oh, that was just, 'cause when I came out with that and 2016, I'm like, I spent $2 million on reversing my age and fixing a lot of health problems. An enormous number. And I didn't think that I could get on the news if I said I was gonna live for hundreds of years, and I'm not sure I want to.
Right. The longest recorded is Methuselah 969 years. It seems like an awful lot, but if I wanna live that long, when I'm 960, then damnit I will. And if I decide, you know what, like it's time to move on. There's time to move on, right? And it's like when there's, there's no more experiences that I want to have or there's no more interesting things to understand or to improve, then I'm done.
And that's okay. Right. And you know, I think a lot of people listening may just be like, he is totally nuts, but it's not about running away from death. And I, I think running away from something or fighting something just makes it stronger.
Zach: I agree with that very strongly. I agree with that very long, and I think that's important for everybody in the longevity because I'm not sure everybody's aware that that's your perspective.
And I think it's super important reframing. Mm-hmm. We cannot be afraid of death. And the moment we do, we, we shorten life. And so and so, uh, we've got to begin to really embrace elderhood as well. I think is another piece of this is trying to preserve our youth at the cost of wisdom is scary. And I, I fear that I, I've done that in my life.
I think we got all capable of doing that, where we shy away or we look in the mirror and be like, oh, I got wrinkles, or I got the thing. You or I, I'm always frustrated with my vision these days. I can't see you stretch my arms. Now, was I supposed to see all the details for my whole life? Or was my eyes supposed to fade enough so I'd stop her lying so much on that ridiculous lie that everything I see around me is real and start to feel something more real so that I would tell my children and grandchildren before they were eight.
Don't believe everything you see. Mm. Feel what you. Your reality is telling you feel deeper. And that elder wisdom that comes outta my fading vision is probably something I could really embrace and I might become more childlike in my journey If instead of trying to correct my vision, I, I start to embrace the vision change.
And instead of trying to reduce the wrinkles and start to really remember what it looked like to look into my great-grandmother's face before she died at 102, she was beautiful. I mean, unbelievably radiant. She's shone so much light into this world at 102, you know, and so then I'm like, well, what part of that am I trying not to live into?
It was her wrinkles at the corners of her eyes from her smiling for a hundred years that made her just the most beautiful being you've ever seen. And so, what beauty am I running away from if I put a definition on it? Like wrinkles. And so I think there's an opportunity for us to just make sure we're checking in with each other of like.
What are we loving about each other? What, where's the beauty in one another? Is it your fasting glucose, or is the fact that you're able to create unconditional level and you see beauty is it the fact that you've got a telomere length? Or is it the fact that yesterday you came to the possibility that you could actually forgive your mother no matter what condition she was in?
Mm. And and our conversations might change a lot if we start to go into the resonance of this is the only thing that's important about being alive is we can feel things devolving. That feeling sensation down to a series of data that when create abstract constructs around that would then fuel our fear or avoidance of something that's inherent.
It's inevitable is what humans all do. So I'm not saying this is unique to bio. This is what we're all doing all of the time. We look at it a social media feed and how many followers, how many things. So we are so quick to reduce the miracle life down to a data set and then start valuing the data set instead of the miracle.
Dave: We're not just feeling things, we're radiating things. Mm-hmm. We have an. Epidemic of EDD Elder deficiency disorder because our people as they age Yeah. Are losing energy. They're getting Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, and they're too tired and too mitochondrial broken to function as the elders with the wisdom that they're supposed to.
And part of the reason that longevity is such a big part of biohacking is I want a bunch of vibrantly healthy people who are twice my age to tell me all this stupid shit not to do. And I'm so blessed that I learned all this stuff in my twenties from people in their seventies and eighties who were doing the longevity movement in the nineties, and they took me under the wing and they mentored me.
And I wouldn't be here today without them. So we gotta have our, our elders back at their full power as elders. And that's a mitochondrial problem. It's an, it's an environmental problem, and that's a part of the mission.
Zach: Beautiful. I love that. Well, I'm excited to hear that part of the mission and, uh, that part will serve us well.
I'm sure it will.
Dave: Zach, you're a profound guy and I'm so happy you're back on the show and it's been too long since you were on for the first time. And, uh, your website for listeners, zach bush md.com, and you were kind enough to, uh, give everybody a gift to use Code Dave 10 to try the supplement that he makes called Ion Gut Support.
Zach, you're doing cool stuff at all sorts of levels. So happy you came into the studio and let's hang out some more. That's awesome. Let next time we'll talk about Africa. Hey man, see you next time on the Human Upgrade Podcast.