Dave: [00:00:00] You are listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.
Our guest today is Ulrich Dele, who's [00:00:10] CEO and founder of Carroll Bike. And this is a really cool biohacking technology. Like I am allergic to this [00:00:20] mindset. Well, if you wanna die at the normal age, but at least be healthy until you die because longevity is impossible. You have to do zone two cardio for 12 [00:00:30] hours a week.
Um, and there's a guy who, who says he's a longevity doctor, who doesn't believe in longevity, who's promoting this? And I'm like, I don't have 12 hours a week to spend on [00:00:40] that because I want that time back to do things that actually matter with my life. And if I want to do zone two with a friend or something, that's great.
I just. Fundamentally, I wanna get [00:00:50] the results in the least possible time. So there was a time in my life where I would do an hour and a half of exercise, including 45 minutes of hard cardio [00:01:00] six days a week. And I never lost any weight on that. And it really pissed me off even after 18 months. And or it comes along, it's like, oh, I [00:01:10] have this new research.
Um, there's three studies now supporting this, that show you can increase your VO two max. VO two max is a major thing for, for, [00:01:20] um, aging. And you can do it in 15 minutes a week and it works six times better than an hour a day of cardio. So that's what we're gonna talk about in the episode [00:01:30] today, is the Carroll bike and the technology behind it called re-hit.
And Ulrich, how much have you increased your VO two max using this 15 minutes a week [00:01:40] kind of protocol?
Ulrich: Over 50%. So I've actually, I've, I've looked this up, uh, again. 12 years ago when I was 35, I had a [00:01:50] V two, Microsoft 32, which that's low, but I was, I had three young children, job as a management consultant and didn't focus on that.
[00:02:00] Today I'm 47 and I have a V two max of 53, and I do that literally with 15 minutes a week. So it's, it's 50 [00:02:10] 60% increase. Um, and it works.
Dave: This is so cool. And you're not just an inventor sort of thing. [00:02:20] Uh, you also sort of helped pioneer AI within UK National Health Service, like, like you're a true scientist nerd.
And like me just saying, [00:02:30] you know what, like, I don't have time for this. I got kids, I got stuff to do. And so I'm, I'm super grateful that you're just poking holes in some of the [00:02:40] beliefs. And the primary belief is that working harder or struggling or working longer gets results and it doesn't appear to be linear.
What is [00:02:50] a JS shaped curve for exercise and why does it matter?
Ulrich: For most exercise, it is true that if you do more, longer or harder, you [00:03:00] get better results. Um, but if you trigger or, or cause and pull specific triggers, you can get [00:03:10] a much stronger training stimulus much, much faster. And that is essentially, you achieve that by ramping up the intensity with, with which you [00:03:20] work out very rapidly, almost instantly from zero to max.
And then you only have to hold it for a very short moment. Two times 20 [00:03:30] seconds is enough to get your body to release very powerful signaling molecules like A MTK pgc one Alpha. [00:03:40] And create and, and saturate the, um, adaptation pathway that creates that training stimulus. And it's, in [00:03:50] fact, you, you don't have to, um, do more sprints or longer sprints, um, because it's like flipping a switch.
Um, getting that [00:04:00] stimulus once into the system, saturates the pathway and you get already maximum benefits.
Dave: You said that for most types of exercise, um, that [00:04:10] doing more gets you better results. But CrossFitters they get overtrained, um, they get injured. And a lot of, in [00:04:20] fact, 80% of the people who come into upgrade labs we're measuring all these biological parameters.
They do not need more exercise, they need more recovery. And, [00:04:30] and so it feels like even for strength training, the speed of of exhaustion is more important than the volume of work. Are you seeing that [00:04:40] pattern as well?
Ulrich: Oh, absolutely. That's true in cardio, where you can do an exercise like re-hit reduced exertion, high intensity into mode training to [00:04:50] 20 seconds, all out sprints.
And you can achieve the same thing with, uh, strength training where, um, if you have AI controlled [00:05:00] resistance like mechanized resistance, that delivers exactly the maximum force that you can, um, basically, uh, [00:05:10] uh, move at that point in time, you can also get a much better result in much, uh, in a much shorter period of time.
But the thing is, you need [00:05:20] to have access to that, uh, technology and understand the training methodologies and then you can basically create this, this alternative stimulus. But if you [00:05:30] are, say you do moderate intensity, uh, training. You go jogging or, so then generally speaking, it's true that if you put more time into [00:05:40] that, you get better results.
And um, for things like zone two, uh, yeah, you do have to work out quite long. Um, [00:05:50] because otherwise you just don't create the training stimulus at all.
Dave: That is a valid point. Um, if you're jogging, you're wearing out your knees and your ankles and all that, 80% of people who start [00:06:00] running quit in the first year because they get injured anyway.
But it is gonna take a long time to get enough stimulus to have any effect. But the results of the stimulus are very [00:06:10] small because even like an hour a day in eight weeks, you're gonna improve by about 2% if you're doing a normal spin class kind of thing. But if you're doing [00:06:20] re-hit on Carroll, you're getting a 12% improvement in your VO two max in like 15 minutes versus several hours.
So when guys like. Say [00:06:30] Peter Atia are rather going like, you have to do zone two for two hours a day, and then, you know, rock something or, or whatever his latest, uh, over training regimen is. What do you say to the zone two [00:06:40] zealots?
Ulrich: What we tell them is, one, if you have a lot of time and you enjoy it, yes.
For all means it's fine. So if you're a
Dave: [00:06:50] masochist, like you move to Berlin or something. Okay. I, I gotcha.
Ulrich: Don't, um, that's all right. I, I, I mean, to be honest, if you, like, in summer, I love hiking with my family. [00:07:00] Mm-hmm. I, I guess I stay in zone two. That's a, that's a valid thing.
Dave: Yeah. Thats for fun. That's different, right?
Ulrich: Absolutely. But, um, what we say [00:07:10] is, um, yes, zone two has some evidence behind it, and if you do it right, and if you do it in the, uh, proposed, uh, [00:07:20] quantity, so like 60 to 90 minutes per session, three to five times a week. So, yes, we'll see some improvement in your mitochondrial density. [00:07:30] We'll see improvement in your mitochondrial efficiency.
Um, but should that be the top priority and the, the [00:07:40] basic recommendation for a broad audience? No would disagree. Wholehearted would repeated that. Um, that is something that, that [00:07:50] trickled out of athlete, like being elite athlete training into the mainstream with actually very little [00:08:00] scientific, um, evidence.
Especially some of the recommendations that I've given, uh, don't have much scientific evidence. Um, and it has picked up some [00:08:10] traction. It seems to, uh, become fashionable. Many people, uh, we seem to buy into that. I wonder how many people really do it because there's just, I, I think most people will [00:08:20] run into time constraints.
Eventually. 95% of Americans don't do enough. Exercise because lack of time. So then giving [00:08:30] a recommendation to spend what, like five to eight hours per week on mild cardio feels slightly misguided to [00:08:40] us.
Dave: Wow. I, I couldn't agree more. It, it's that you could be, if you had 10 hours a week to exercise and to become a [00:08:50] better human being.
You have to allocate some of this to meditation or you could do meditation, bl plus breath work, which works faster. And there's a, my newest book, heavily meditated, [00:09:00] that's all that stuff. And on the exercise front, if you look at smarter, not Harder, I write about your work. I write about re-hit in there like for exercise.
So if you only have 10 hours or you're [00:09:10] like a lot of people, you have two hours a week and that's gotta be everything. So do you want to take a cold shower or do you want to do cryotherapy? You wanna do cryotherapy? 'cause it's faster. [00:09:20] Right? And then do you wanna do all of your time on zone two and then, oh, I guess I'll just hire a babysitter while I do the rest of it.
Or do you want just do re-hit on a Carroll bike? I think you [00:09:30] have kinda a moral obligation to say, if my goal was this, let's get there quickly so I can do more important things in the world. What do you do with the time you save?
Ulrich: Oh, I mean, uh, first [00:09:40] I couldn't do other types of exercise, which are necessary and effective.
So that's strength training, mobility training. And then [00:09:50] as you said. Um, like there's so much more that you can do, like meditate, like, um, spending time with your loved ones. Um, and for me, [00:10:00] so I'll bite there and I think it's should be, this is slightly ironic that I advocate a little bit against zone too, because car bike is [00:10:10] probably the best tool to do zone two.
Mm-hmm. Because we have the coolest technology to help you find exactly the right intensity for [00:10:20] zone two. Um, so if you wanted to be zone two and you can listen to a cool podcast or watch your favorite, so uh, show on that, then it's, then it's a great [00:10:30] addition to it. Yeah. So we're, we're not, um, I don't want to put it all together.
It's just most people don't have spare time. Uh, there's intense [00:10:40] competition for our time. There's, there's trillion dollar companies that compete for our time and our attention. So, so therefore, just saying, well, you have to do it all. [00:10:50] Um. Seems unrealistic and in, in all fairness, the the big proponents, uh, I think they're all say no, you have to do zone two, you have to do zone [00:11:00] five, you have to do it all.
Um, uh, so they, they recognize that zone two alone is not enough. In fact, like for, for [00:11:10] anybody who's, who's under some misconception there, there's, there's good data that shows if you only did zone two at government guidelines level [00:11:20] of 150 minutes per week, that 40%, 40% of people would just not see an increase in their cardiovascular respiratory [00:11:30] fitness, in their view two max at all.
So, um, therefore, you, you have to listen carefully to what people say and you hear, yes, you have to do zone two and [00:11:40] zone five. And we say there's it's other way round. Start with the most efficient training as your base. Make that your [00:11:50] base. Um, then do strength, then do mobility. Do something for your mind.
Do something for your social connections. Make sure you get enough sleep so there's, there's enough [00:12:00] else you ought to be doing. And then if you have still more time and to really enjoy it, then yes, for all means in zone two and do it in the most effective and efficient [00:12:10] way possible. Um, and we help people with that too, but it's, it's somewhere later down the line list of priorities.
Dave: I'm with you there. If you are a pro [00:12:20] athlete or you have unlimited time and you love it, you do a bunch of zone two. Uh, I would just say re have so much more evidence behind it. In fact, you should do re-hit and then [00:12:30] you could do some zone two if you really wanted to. I don't know if you've ever looked into these things, but there's a substance I wrote about in Superhuman that's banned by [00:12:40] the International Olympic Committee, which means we know that it works.
Mm-hmm. And it's called GW 5 0 1 516 or tering that raises [00:12:50] PGC one alpha and increases mitochondrial density. So I would rather do re-hit plus something like Tering and get the mitochondrial density that would've cost [00:13:00] me like eight hours a week of zone two. So I'm like, guys, pick up some heavy stuff.
Learn functional movement in the time you save on this because re-hit frees up so [00:13:10] much. Yeah. And then you can have the VO two max that you want. But I have, I have a question for you. 'cause you've pioneered this, you've done heavy duty research on re-hit and built it into the [00:13:20] Carroll, um, AI capability set.
What do I do if I'm on the road? There's no upgrade labs where you can, you can do re-hit with Carol, but [00:13:30] like, can I go to a park and do it? What's the closest way I could come to what you're talking about if I don't have your tech?
Ulrich: Yeah, sure. So, um. There, there's a few things [00:13:40] that I wouldn't do. Yeah, I wouldn't do it on a treadmill, I wouldn't do it on a rower.
I wouldn't do it on, it's very difficult on a regular exercise point, to be honest. Um, and treadmill [00:13:50] rower is just the, the injury risk would be too high. Um, if you are good to run, if your joints, um, can [00:14:00] cope with sprinting and you have a hill, then um, hill sprints, for example, are a very effective tool, um, where you can [00:14:10] also increase the intensity, um, quite strictly.
So, so the rapid increase from zero to max is important, and where you can achieve [00:14:20] really, um, like all out intensity. So that would be, um, an alternative that probably works quite well. But there, there's a few caveats, like, [00:14:30] uh, first can your joints handle it? Um, there's a, maybe a trip hazard. And most people have like slight inhibition being seen [00:14:40] in public going all out.
So we, car bikes are, um, not only in the leading biohacking, uh, facilities like upgrade [00:14:50] labs, but also, uh, some offices have it because it's so quick. Um, most people don't sweat. You can do it in your lunch break. And what we've seen is if the bark is in [00:15:00] a, in a public area, it just gets much less usage than if it is in a secluded private area where you can go all out, um, [00:15:10] and, and not you'll somehow Yeah.
Funny about yourself. And I think the same thing happens if you run outside. Most people just don't, um, want to go, [00:15:20] um, especially if they don't look like, um, you know, an athlete yet. Uh, but they, they want to get there, uh, go all out, uh, in public. So [00:15:30] that, that's one. The other thing, if you have access to an air bike, um, like an assault bike or something like that, so if your gym has something like that, you could try.
[00:15:40] So those are bikes where you can also increase intensity quite quickly. Um, it's not perfect because it has essentially just one beer. So, um, [00:15:50] it might be optimal for a, you know, your 35, 30-year-old CrossFit athlete, but it's almost certainly not perfect for somebody [00:16:00] who's 60, 65, 70. And with terabyte, because we have, um, 255 and AI controlled, uh, [00:16:10] breaking mechanism and algorithms that tailored and personalize it too, we can every single time pro provide a optimal workout [00:16:20] for basically every age and fitness level.
And my mom use 81, she can do it. Um. Three times a week, and her workouts look [00:16:30] different than mine, but for her it's an optimal workout and, and she can do it. And so yes, there, there are some different options. Our bite [00:16:40] is very, very optimized
Dave: for it. I haven't found anything better, and that's why it's a part of our tech stack at Upgrade Labs.
Um, tell me more [00:16:50] about the specific benefits of, of what you can do with, with Carol. How does 15 minutes a week of re-hit training compare [00:17:00] to 150 minutes of jogging? Like gimme the hard numbers.
Ulrich: Yeah, sure. And so there we have really hard scientific data, um, like a [00:17:10] randomized controlled, peer-reviewed academic trial.
And we saw that through doing at least three short [00:17:20] workouts a week, the REIT that. Achieve a 12% improvement in be two max in only eight [00:17:30] groups. Um, and as you said, be two max is a really, really critical, maybe the most important help marker. There's a very, um, substantial [00:17:40] improvement. And if you, if you then continue further, so you see about 20% improvement, uh, on average over 20 weeks.
And, uh, the progress continuous product group, for me, it was over [00:17:50] 50% in the first year. The control group that spent, um, like, like six times as much time, uh, even more time, [00:18:00] um, on moderate intensity training. So they did five times a week, 30 minutes jogging. They also saw an improvement, so they saw an improvement of about 6% [00:18:10] in BO two max.
But if you, and so it's very clear exercise is good for you. No, so, so, uh, I don't wanna be any [00:18:20] misconception about that. Exercise is good for you. They have to spend a lot more time and, um, got less, got around half cardio [00:18:30] respiratory fitness benefit. Um, and that's, that's one big part of the story. Other big part of the story is around metabolic health.
[00:18:40] So, um, you can measure, uh, a basket of indicators, um, like your, your, uh, blood sugar [00:18:50] levels, um, cholesterol, HDL and so on, and then, uh, compute your risk of developing metabolic diseases. And [00:19:00] with the re-hit group, in that eight week period, they saw a 62% re risk reduction,
Dave: 62% risk reduction in 15 [00:19:10] minutes a week.
Absolutely. That's actually a greater risk reduction than you get from brushing your teeth.
Ulrich: Yeah, it's a very good thing to do. We, um. [00:19:20] It's a shame that not everybody does it yet, but um, we're, we're, we're working on that. Um, the, the other group also saw a, um, substantial risk [00:19:30] reduction. They got something like 27% risk reduction.
Um, so again, exercise is really good. If you don't do exercise yet, do something. Yeah. And if you love zone two [00:19:40] training, but means zone two training. Um, but if you want to get like maximum benefits in minimum time and do the most efficient, [00:19:50] um, exercise for your cardio, for your metabolic health, then something like, we hit this,
Dave: that is just incredibly cool.
I mean, we can, we can [00:20:00] transform our time. And so if you're on the road and you go to a hotel, they don't have, you know, an assault bike or anything like that. What if you skip for a week? Or what if [00:20:10] you, you only do it once a week. How many times a week do you have to do re-hit in order to get results?
Ulrich: Yeah, so.
Um, for the cardio respiratory, for the [00:20:20] VO O2 max benefit, um, two times a week is actually enough. That's what the, the latest research shows, um, or [00:20:30] metabolic health that affect the slightly shorter nip is a more acute effect. Uh, three times a week is better, so our recommendation is three times a week or if you pan just every other day.[00:20:40]
Um, and every other day is pretty much what, um, what I do. And then there is obviously this is, this is how exercise works. There [00:20:50] is a de training, um, effect. Um, and, and that's why it's so important that you have something you can stick to and not just say, [00:21:00] oh, I'm gonna do a big effort and spend now 10 hours a week and then, uh, get in shape and then you run out of time and reality catches up with you because [00:21:10] de training effect, um, tends to be.
As fast as the training impacts. So you can achieve, like the body [00:21:20] responds wonderfully to stimulus and to, to exercise is really magic. Um, but it also means, unfortunately, if you stop [00:21:30] detrained now, um, I had, uh, student experimentation on myself. I, I broke my collarbone, uh, scheme, [00:21:40] uh, around Christmas and had like a two months break on the bike.
And I did some, a reduction in my view to maximum. 'cause I, I couldn't do terrible much, uh, in terms of [00:21:50] cardio exercise or strength training. Um, and I saw maybe 15% reduction in that time. But I, uh, caught that arc, [00:22:00] uh, really fast again, um, and got back to yeah, a, a really, yeah, like a high level for [00:22:10] my age and, uh, I think very high.
Um, due to Max overall. So it's, it's really important that you find something you can do and you can stick to. [00:22:20]
Dave: Mm, okay. So it just doesn't have to be that hard. That gets you out of the way. Uh, and these are things you can get at home with a Carroll bike. You can come [00:22:30] and do an upgrade labs as part of your membership.
You can stack this on. What are the other most surprising benefits you found from REIT that just you would [00:22:40] not have predicted?
Ulrich: There's actually quite long list of benefits and, um, I think, again, it is just reflective of how [00:22:50] important exercise is. Um, and then it's really encouraging to see that you can get those benefits in a really short period of time.
So [00:23:00] beyond, um, so the, the headline is real two max Metabolic Health. Beyond that, it has, uh, good impact on your leg strength. So [00:23:10] in that eight peaks, we will also see. Um, on average an increase in 15% of your leg spring, so measured in one rep [00:23:20] max of a, of a squat because the, the PO are, but you exert, even those sprints are so high, they're relevant for strength training.
Two, the next thing [00:23:30] is, I'm absolutely convinced I haven't seen much data on that, but, um, just with greater, um, metabolic flexibility and greater insulin [00:23:40] sensitivity, that weight management becomes media. So, um, we, we, we hesitate to promise to [00:23:50] people, oh, you're gonna just lose weight, uh, like a miracle because nutrition is just the number one thing for weight loss.
Yeah. Um, it's, it's [00:24:00] the, your top priority is, is what you eat, how much you. Um, and, but exercise is, if it helps me to gain metabolic flexibility, [00:24:10] gain good insulin sensitivity, it just makes weight management so much easier because you can go for periods, um, without eat. You can fast, [00:24:20] for example, without stopping your brain because you actually have access to, um, you know, in the energy you carry around in your pat cells.
And then there's, there's a bunch of [00:24:30] other things. There's, um, or your circadian rhythm. If you, um, do it at the same time, often you get up, helps to set that. Um, if you have [00:24:40] problems sleeping high intensity exercise has been shown to, to offset of some of the damaging effect of, uh, lack of sleep. So even, [00:24:50] even one night, lack of sleep to to, to, uh, insulin resistance, like temporary insulin resistance and high intensity [00:25:00] taking helps to, to offset that and get, um.
In terms of brain, uh, health, uh, you, you get, um, with high [00:25:10] intensity exercise, uh, much higher BDNF uh, release than where, uh, regular exercise. So BDNF
Dave: helps. How much more [00:25:20] BDNF comes from re-hit versus normal exercise? BDFs really important. 'cause it makes your brain more neuroplastic.
Ulrich: Correct? Correct. And so there, there was a recent study out of EDEM that [00:25:30] has shown, uh, four to five times higher B DNFs, and they, so whoa,
Dave: okay.
Five times more BDNF from using re-hit versus zone [00:25:40] two. I think you just punched zone two in the nuts. I Is that so
Ulrich: that, that was specifically, that was a, a, a hit program that was not specifically wehi, but [00:25:50] I think it's quite easy to, um, presume and surmise that, um, that applies to Wehi. But because we hit mimics in many ways, uh, it, it takes hit [00:26:00] to.
The next level. So you, you get hit benefits in a very, very compressed way. So yes, no, that's, uh, it's very, very, [00:26:10] um, rewarding in a way and, and fascinating like how so little, um, effort, perhaps so many, like such a long list [00:26:20] of benefits. Another thing is, um, so this is again, a study or research more done on hit more broadly is around, um, anxiety and [00:26:30] depression that, um, exercise and specifically high intensity exercise is, um, as effective or [00:26:40] more effective than psychotherapy or, um, medication in managing anxiety and depression.
So [00:26:50] there's, wow, there's a, a, a long list of benefits. I think most of it is just a testament, uh, for, for exercise being so important and so beneficial. [00:27:00] Then leave it, um, achieves to capture those benefits in an incredibly short amount of time. And so, so you [00:27:10] can basically tap into that long list of benefits in a very, very efficient way.
Dave: What's the difference between 22nd and ten second? [00:27:20] Exercise intervals during reset
Ulrich: 20 seconds are our kind of main go-to protocol. It has most research [00:27:30] and, and has been basically rated to, um, in the minimum effective dose of getting the whole benefits of, [00:27:40] and 20 seconds. It, it doesn't sound like terribly much, but if you've done two 20 seconds all out sprints, we will notice like the first 10 [00:27:50] seconds you are actually really e then the next five seconds feel a bit harder and, but the last five seconds are actually quite hard.
Beauty is you always see the light at the end of the [00:28:00] tunnel and, um, psychologically it's quite easy to, to push through. Um, but nevertheless, um, for some people it is too hard [00:28:10] and then 10 seconds, um, is a much, much easier way, uh, of doing. So it, it feels, it [00:28:20] is not half as hard. It's like a 10 or so in terms of how, how, how hard it feels and it still offers meaningful benefits.
And, um, so, [00:28:30] um, to where we saw like the 12% improvement in B build two max over in weeks with the 22nd protocol, I [00:28:40] think it was four to 5% improvement of the ten second protocol. Um, so it's a, you know, there, there, there comes then a trade [00:28:50] off where Nest is led. Um, but if that's what helps you get started.
And that's what allows you to do [00:29:00] it, then it's a wonderful way to, to get it in. And it's also, um, like a good energizer. So if you, um, [00:29:10] if you want to do it and work with and you just need to, um, kind of question up a little bit and, and want to get crisp and sharp again, that's a wonderful way [00:29:20] without, um, kind of getting heavily out of breath and, um, um, just we need to, to get that quick boost in energy.
Dave: That's just incredible. It, [00:29:30] it, it almost sounds too good to be true. What do you say to people who say there's no way re-hit is dominating older cardio methods this much?
Ulrich: So, uh, try it, [00:29:40] try it. Uh, if you, um, and the, the threshold's not that high. Like, you know, I'm sure you offer some, um, uh, people can go to, to [00:29:50] upgrade labs and, uh, try and see for themselves.
Um, in fact, um. We offer. So if you, we, we don't have showrooms. [00:30:00] It's, uh, that's not something we offer. We sell our bikes directly to customers. But if you purchase a bike, um, we offer a 100 day, uh, [00:30:10] what we call whi free trial, which means you can, uh, you get your Caral bike and then you have a hundred days to see whether it's effective, [00:30:20] whether it works for you, whether you, um, like it and whether you can stick to it.
And if it isn't, then we just take it back, like, [00:30:30] uh, yeah, we'd like to know why you don't. It's, it's good pass to learn. Yeah. We didn't like the color. Okay. But you can, um, we can think about that for our next, uh, version of [00:30:40] whether we want to have a white bike or so, but, um, we we're not gonna haggle or so No, we just get a full refunder and we take up the bike and, um, [00:30:50] we can only offer that because for most people.
It works really well. Um, it delivers amazing results. They like it [00:31:00] and they can stick to it. That's, that's why we're able to operate. Like, I don't think there's anybody else who, um, gives you a hundred day, um, whi free home trial.
Dave: It's kind of [00:31:10] ridiculous because within a hundred days most fitness devices become clothing racks.
It just happens. And you're saying if it becomes a [00:31:20] clothing rack because you just don't use it, send it back. And I've never heard of that before. Yeah. We,
Ulrich: we pick it up. Exactly. We pick it up. You have to take your clothes off, but we are, we're happy to pick it up. Um, [00:31:30] so no, we're, we're that confident in our bike.
And we have by now thousands and tens of thousands of riders and millions of rides. [00:31:40] And we see the improvement. We see it in our data mirrors. What is achieved in, uh, clinical trials. And so yes, we're, we're now really very [00:31:50] confident that this is real.
Dave: I have no doubt about it. I mean, I, I've written about it in the books.
I've built it into our tech stack at Upgrade Labs where people can come in and you, [00:32:00] you can come in, you can try out the bike and you can even measure other physiological things using other tech there to see what's changing in your body. So guys, if you're in one of the [00:32:10] nine cities that have an upgrade, labs, you should swing by and check it out.
And if you're not, you can pick up a Carroll bike or, uh, come visit and we're happy to do it. It's upgrade labs.com if you [00:32:20] wanna find if there's one near you. And it's carroll bike.com, right? That's right,
Ulrich: yes.
Dave: Alright. It's carroll bike.com. You can use Code Dave, which usually works some [00:32:30] places and they have a special deal.
They'll give you at least a hundred dollars off. And if there's any better special anywhere, they'll just automatically give you the best pricing. [00:32:40] So if you're interested in. Saving a whole bunch of time. This is way more important than an electric toothbrush. I mean, it, it's, [00:32:50] uh, it, it's kinda ridiculous what it does.
The, the one area that really does deserve more attention in the world's [00:33:00] diet has to do with mitochondrial effectiveness or insulin sensitivity, which is a measure of that. What does re-hit do for insulin [00:33:10] sensitivity versus zone two or other types of cardio?
Ulrich: Here's, uh, actually a little bit of, um, debate and, um, [00:33:20] evidence that points in different directions.
So the, the zone two proponents and some research points towards, um, [00:33:30] greater benefits from zone two if you do it for all those many hours in terms of mitochondrial density, so [00:33:40] how many mitochondria you have. How, um, large they are. And, um, high intensity training like we hip, [00:33:50] um, seems to be more effective in increasing mitochondrial efficiency.
So how well your mitochondrial work. [00:34:00] And so that kind of makes an argument, um, to say, well, if you have all the time in the world, uh, you might as well do both, um, [00:34:10] and, uh, use one to, uh, develop as many and as large mitochondria as possible. Uh, use the other to make them as efficient [00:34:20] as possible. Now, um, some of the scientists, uh, that we work with, um, I, I know, um, don't [00:34:30] necessarily agree with those findings and say No, you get with, we hit and get really strong PGC one alpha activation and there's actually.
Not much [00:34:40] reason to believe that zone two training was better at, um, improving mitochondrial density. Um, but [00:34:50] that's, that's really, if you look through the literature, there's kind of, um, yeah, there's a discourse and, um, I [00:35:00] think current state of the art would be, um, if you want to do it all, you do it both.
If you want maximum results with minimum time, [00:35:10] then you do something like Wehi and, um, you have, like, we know that we get fantastic results in terms of year two max improvement [00:35:20] and, and, uh, improvements in mitochondrial health and uh, mitochondrial efficiency. And I think that will be. The right [00:35:30] advice for the big majority of ju
Dave: and very well said.
And I like your, your levelheadedness about zone two and that if you're willing to put in all the time, it does have [00:35:40] additional marginal benefits. It's benefits that I know how to get with supplements anyway, but, uh, it's not that it's zero benefits, it's just the benefit [00:35:50] per minute is just so low. That's why it, I find it just kind of sad when people are just, just going out and pushing this because like, you're [00:36:00] not seeing your kids, you're not doing other things.
So I mean, yeah,
Ulrich: I, I think it's quite good to understand where this [00:36:10] current type of zone two, that's at least how we understand where it came from.
Dave: Where, where, where did the world get this zone two fetish.
Ulrich: So [00:36:20] if you look at, um, really elite athletes Tour de France cyclists, um. Who do this for a living.
They're [00:36:30] professionals. They train 25 to 35 hours per week. And if you just cannot do more than five to seven hours at [00:36:40] high intensity each week, um, if you did more at high intensity, you, you would clearly be over training. It would be counterproductive. So once these [00:36:50] top athletes have five to seven hours at high intensity in their workout schedule, they fill up the rest of the time with low intensity work.[00:37:00]
Um, and that means another 20 hours or so of low intensity work. And, and that's then where recommendations like, uh, we should do 80% zone, two 20% [00:37:10] zone five come from because, well, if like the, to the frost winner does that as his exercise program, then it must be good for everybody. But that's [00:37:20] just, so that split 80%, zone two versus 20% zone five.
So to the best of my knowledge and the researchers we work with just does not have [00:37:30] scientific evidence. It's, yes, elite athletes do that. Um, but whether it's good for, you know, the, the masses [00:37:40] out there, that's less fear. And, and even so we, we are like, even like in really [00:37:50] strong advocates, um, like Professor Lan are, that high intensity training is critical.
So I, I can [00:38:00] quote in pretty much directly are saying kind of high intensity politic training is essential and it is where the magic [00:38:10] happens. So it's, it's not that they say, oh, you only have to do zone two at all. And so they, they're very clear. Um, you, you have to do you high intensity [00:38:20] work as well. It's just then, uh, somehow it led to, um, a, i, I think quite wrong advice that [00:38:30] zone two should be your base.
And, um, but like this 80 20 split should be good for everybody when um, it's good for eeb [00:38:40] athletes.
Dave: I feel like zone two has become the new low fat, like everyone believes it based on a study, but it, it's more like, oh, if it works really well for a Formula [00:38:50] One driver, it's what you should do. So you have a bunch of people swapping their tires out every time they come home from work for new tires.
'cause they could be worn out and doing all this crazy, you know, a hundred octane [00:39:00] fuel, none of which your Camry needs, right? So unless you are an, a really ultra elite athlete, then maybe there's a case for this because [00:39:10] you're getting paid. To go do that, that zone two time like that, that is what your primary focus is.
For the rest of us, we wanna live a very long time, we wanna look good, we [00:39:20] wanna feel good, we wanna have lots of energy, we wanna have mitochondrial density, all that stuff. So I think Rhit is so much more powerful. It's not just twice as good. It, it's like [00:39:30] 10 times as good as the type of exercise people are doing.
But what I wanna know is how much better is re-hit than hit because I've [00:39:40] recommended, you know, do five one minute sprints with a minute or two of, of calming down between them as being more effective for years. And then I switched to recommending re-hit [00:39:50] in my last book. But what's the delta between old style hit and re-hit?
Ulrich: So the, the delta comes down to, uh, first time [00:40:00] and how doable it is. So, no. Okay. That's accurate. You, you get good results with hit, no question. Yeah. And [00:40:10] there's, um. So again, like that's under, under Carroll bike by the Norwegian protocol. Four times, four minutes in five in zone [00:40:20] five with three minute, uh, rest periods in between.
Has, uh, a ton of research, highly effective. [00:40:30] It's just, it takes half an hour. You're absolutely sweat, sweat, wrenched. Um, and it is really hard. It's really hard [00:40:40] mentally because the weight of perceived exertion is very, very high. And so, um, yeah, I, I would again argue that the Carroll bike is probably the [00:40:50] best tool to do that if you want to do it.
We want to give people the best tool for what they want to be.
Dave: It is a, a versatile tool, uh, in that [00:41:00] there's a heart rate monitor built in. There's an AI system watching what you're doing. It can guide what you're doing. It, it's, it's an all encompassing thing and it does have a zone two setting on the car bike.
I just have [00:41:10] never turned it on because I value my life. But like you're saying, it's, everything is so quantified that compared to just using a, a Peloton or something, it's not even the [00:41:20] same universe, um, in terms of, of the feedback and the data. So I'm, uh, I'm just a big believer in effectiveness on something like this.
Yeah, exactly. [00:41:30] There's, there's something else that happens. Ulrich, when you combine cold plunges and you combine saunas and you [00:41:40] combine any other emotional or physiological stresses, maybe fasting, intermittent fasting, each of these increases the amount of stress on the system and it's good stress [00:41:50] until it becomes bad stress.
Yeah. Right, and you, the stress handling systems become overwhelmed. And that's why a lot of the tech that I work with is around recovering from stress so that you can [00:42:00] handle more of it. But the population that hits the stress wall first is usually perimenopausal women, [00:42:10] and that's because they're DHEA and pregnenolone and progesterone levels have tanked, and those are anti-stress hormones.
So cortisol's, higher [00:42:20] adrenaline is often higher without the corresponding hormones of youthfulness and resilience. So for perimenopausal women, [00:42:30] why would re-hit work better than hit or zone two?
Ulrich: As you say, the, um, at rhit it's reduced exertion, high intensity [00:42:40] interval training. So you get this, um, the, the training stimulus with a very, very short, um.
Very intense, but very [00:42:50] short amount of stress. And with the, um, the overall level of exertion is very low. And so, um, that is just, [00:43:00] uh, especially for, uh, uh, women, paramount al women, uh, beneficial because, um, [00:43:10] well long zone, two, long cardio training, things that traditionally would've been done would have all those other, you know, unwanted [00:43:20] effects.
Uh, high cortisol, some argue even catabolic, um, and, and kind of making it even harder to maintain [00:43:30] and, and build muscle mass. And so having cardio covered with a, like reduced exertion [00:43:40] hip program is I. Just incredibly beneficial. And then you can focus on like other things that become really important in that, um, [00:43:50] uh, for, for that group or, and resistance training.
So it, I I would very much, um, uh, yeah. Female listeners, [00:44:00] like before you do zone two, please make sure you have done resistance and strength training because it's just so much more important for you.
Dave: It's a beautiful picture, you're saying. All right. Your [00:44:10] ability to manage stress of all forms is likely a little bit compromised in perimenopause or frankly in andropause For men as well.
We have similar problems, but not as dramatic of a [00:44:20] decline. We do get andropause, so during that time, you wanna provide enough stimulus to stay healthy so that you don't get insulin resistance, which is going to [00:44:30] take down everything else and is gonna make you old. So what's the right dose in order to do it?
And if you do re-hit, which provides less overall [00:44:40] stress on the body, but strong adaptation, you have enough energy left to pick up some heavy things or do some planks so you don't get the lack of bone density. And all of a sudden you [00:44:50] don't have the weight gain that comes from perimenopause because you didn't get insulin resistant and you didn't overwhelm your stress handling systems.
And you might wanna do some things like take DHE and [00:45:00] pregnant alone and hormone replacement and all so that it's less of an issue. That's a different biohack, that's pure longevity. But most women I know who are in [00:45:10] perimenopause have no desire to go do zone two training all the time, nor do they have time.
Right? So that's out the window. And if they were to try and do Norwegian protocol, high intensity [00:45:20] interval training, it's gonna overwhelm the system, right? So what's left will re-hit is manageable, right? And then even if they were to lift [00:45:30] one time a week. On top of re-hit the lifting is gonna take, what, about a half hour and re-hit is gonna take 15 minutes.
So now you're like 45 [00:45:40] minutes total per week, but that's three five minute Carol sessions and one half hour, let's pick up some heavy stuff. Or at least do squats and they can be squats in the kitchen while you're [00:45:50] blending something if you want to. I've seen that work just fine. Right. It's manageable.
Right. And for most of us, including me, when I was really fat, it [00:46:00] feels like there's this insurmountable amount of work you have to go do at a time when, you know, for me, my adrenals were blown out, my testosterone was lower than my mom. And I'm like, I, I'm willing [00:46:10] to go to the gym, but it's taken everything I've got and I'm not changing because I was already depleted.
So I, I feel like this is a way out of the, uh, kind of the, the [00:46:20] trap that happens around middle age where, you know, I can't exercise the way I did when I was 25. Right. Because it doesn't work. Right. Even if I do put that amount of energy out, [00:46:30] I don't feel the way I did back then. Right. And you can get that back and I certainly have, but for most people it, it's not there.
So this is the path forward as far as I [00:46:40] can tell. And I, I'm not, I'm not trying to, to sell Carol to anyone. Uh, what I am trying to sell is the advice from Smarter Not Harder, which is my most, my, my [00:46:50] last book, not heavily meditated. My next one. I'm just, guys, there's so many ways to get the signal in without breaking yourself.
And I take it personally 'cause I did break myself when I was 26 and I'm [00:47:00] going to the gym 90 minutes a day. Like, it was ridiculous. What advice would you have for someone who's 19, who's interested in doing rehab?
Ulrich: They can. [00:47:10] Absolutely, they can. Um, so we have, in fact, we don't have a lower age limit for the bike.
So we, we do kind of our times and conditions stipulate than [00:47:20] if you're a child. You have to do it under adult supervision. But you can start doing, we, um. As soon as you're fallen up, use the bike. [00:47:30] So for a 19-year-old, absolutely you can. Um, and if I look at my kids or they're two 16 year olds, um, they use the [00:47:40] bike, um, not necessarily because they need it to, um, to, uh, get their, their cardio [00:47:50] fitness in, um, because they don't have other time, but to help them compete in their sport.
So, uh, we in Europe, soccer players and, and at a [00:48:00] fairly competitive level, uh, to get training sessions in additional training of sessions, but don't stress the body spur body further. So if they have, um, two [00:48:10] matches, three training sessions with a team or so, then they do some additional training sessions, uh, kind of in their off days almost.[00:48:20]
Um, to get additional stimulus that doesn't, again, doesn't break them and doesn't create unnecessary stress, um, rather than beyond what they, what [00:48:30] they get already through their other training.
Dave: I'm pretty passionate about this. I guess people, people can tell. Uh, I look at how much of my life I spend doing things [00:48:40] that weren't very effective from an exercise perspective, and it's at least two years of full-time work.
Like I would've rather had the salary and the [00:48:50] same results, and that's why I get all excited about it. Um, there are other things though that, that [00:49:00] are a part of how you built Carol. You didn't just look at re-hit, there's some AI components that I think are critical to [00:49:10] us continuing to do exercise. How do you use AI to make exercise easier?
With Carol?
Ulrich: It's a critical part for us to personalize and optimize the [00:49:20] workouts, um, and to actually get, to be able to replicate the benefit but have been demonstrated [00:49:30] in a lab in real life. So when we, when we press came across when we had, that's, uh, that in 2012, [00:49:40] um, we, we just heard about it, but, and, and I got myself a, a normal exercise bike, was very disappointed that I couldn't replicate, um, [00:49:50] what, what scientists did in the lab.
And that was because they had a second person operating the bike. Call you, applying the right resistance at the right [00:50:00] time. And that, that's just impractical for, um, for, for like normal people. And what [00:50:10] wool can do, because we have the data, therefore we have, um, the data from tens of thousands of users, millions of rides, [00:50:20] we can run sophisticated algorithms, and they, they get better and better, um, uh, reinforcement learning [00:50:30] algorithms over the data to identify what an optimal right looks like.
And not just engineering terms, but for somebody [00:50:40] exactly like you, and then dial the resistance very quickly to that optimal level of resistance that helps you to, [00:50:50] to get to your maximum intensity, um, to, to hit your P power and keep the, um. The [00:51:00] workout, effective, efficient, optimal for you as you get better and stronger?
Or what happened with me, if you, if you have an injury, [00:51:10] um, and you, you lose some fitness as well, or you, whatever, life caught up with you and you have to take a break, um, to, to then very quickly [00:51:20] find again your optimum, create a, a, a lighter workout for me to then build up your, your strength and, um, your condition again.
And that's, [00:51:30] that's where we can use ai, um, because we have the data and that's really what, what sets us apart because nobody else have that. Um, even the scientists we work [00:51:40] with, uh, I mean, uh, usual epidemic, uh, study is, um, you know, eight weeks, 12 weeks has 40, 50 [00:51:50] participants or so. So you, you, you are talking about hundreds of workouts.
We have millions and, and thereby can. Develop more things [00:52:00] on the back of that and there's, there's cool stuff coming. So, um, uh, for, for the people who want to do zone two, um, because one, one [00:52:10] difficulty with the zone two is what's the right level of intensity? Here are all sorts of suggestions. Oh boy.
Should be able to talk but not sing [00:52:20] or, or should be uncomfortable and so on. Um, even if you are, we have access to that of course, but if you use, um, like [00:52:30] gas analyzers also to, to, uh, measure your, your respiratory exchange rate, um, it's all a bit unc practical and not that precise. So you're, if you, [00:52:40] if you want to really, okay, there, there are people who want to do zone two and they want to do it optimally.
So, um, a very cool new thing that is coming is [00:52:50] looking at, um, heart rate variability in real time and, um. Not looking at only at heart rate [00:53:00] variability, but, and looking at the complexity, oh, so that's like higher orders. So you have heart rate, heart rate variability, and then the complexity of your heart rate variability.
[00:53:10] And by analyzing the complexity of your heart rate variability, you can um, right when reliably prime that optimal point, um, where you're [00:53:20] switching from fat metabolism to, uh, carb and glucose metabolism. Um, and so that, that's something We'll, we'll, so I'll, I'll, I'll, uh, there, let's put a [00:53:30] time on Andrew, but in the next three months we'll have that available on our bikes to uh, be so if, if you are so, and, and there are, there are some people who, who make this.[00:53:40]
You must know some professional biohackers
Dave: who, oh well most professional biohackers don't want to do zone two. 'cause they have things like, you know, stuff to do. But [00:53:50] professional athletes I'm friends with Yeah, do want to do that.
Ulrich: Exactly right. Exactly. And for example, if you're, if you're competing and you can't take those band substances and you want to do it all, and you have the [00:54:00] time, then we, we can help them with that.
Um, like new analysis there, there's, there's compelling new research and we can implement it on their bind to, [00:54:10] to make it optimal for them. So there's, there are lots of full things that can be done once you have, um, a ton of data and the, um, yeah, the, the [00:54:20] algorithms get more and more powerful. And, and having the data is then just such a big asset to develop.
Muta,
Dave: what you said about heart rate variability just warms my heart. [00:54:30] Um, many years ago I was an advisor to the HeartMath Institute and I brought them into the quantified self in biohacking movement. And Roland McCready's been a friend now for almost 20 [00:54:40] years, who's the head of, uh, research and development and has shown this incredible, like, symphony of mathematical beauty that's in your [00:54:50] EKG tracings from the heart.
And it's a lot more than the spacing between your heartbeat or how frequent it is. And because you have so much data, you can dig in on that in a way [00:55:00] that's unprecedented. And I fully believe that if you did want to do zone two or just re-hit, there's a unique personal dose [00:55:10] that changes every single day based on all kinds of hidden variables, including how well you slept, whether you had a glass of beer last night, did you eat a bunch of carbs or not?
How much lactate you have, all [00:55:20] these things and you're gonna be able to get that straight from the body and in real time provide exactly that. So if I was gonna do zone two or re-hit, I would want to do it with [00:55:30] ultra personalization. And that's why we built you guys in to upgrade labs, to be honest. And we do the same thing with muscle building with a different system.
And all of our systems we're integrating into our [00:55:40] master data system because I just want to do what works right. And I cannot wait to see that I, you might even convinced me to try some zone two. I. [00:55:50] Um, because it'll be personalized for me, and at least if I'm gonna waste two hours of my life, I might as well waste it with the ultimate efficiency to get results.
Yeah, exactly. '
Ulrich: cause that's the other thing then, then if you do it too low, then [00:56:00] it's like a complete waste of time. You get nothing. If it's too high, then they say like, oh, but now you, you went into car metabolism and it doesn't count anymore. It's, [00:56:10]
Dave: um, you, uh, you nailed it. Uh, that's exactly, um, exactly what happens.
Oh my gosh. I, I didn't realize you were coming up with that, [00:56:20] that, that genuinely makes me happy. Let's talk about this. Why do most people quit their workouts?
Ulrich: That's a great question. So, um, like if [00:56:30] you, if you survey people, the number one answer is lack of time. Um, and I think secondary [00:56:40] answer is something like boredom.
Um, and you can. You can. Then there's different approaches to it, like some people, and they're, they're, they're all valid. [00:56:50] And, um, I would say whatever works best in. So, um, some people try to make it really fun and have like super [00:57:00] soundtracks and, and very attractive, um, uh, celebrity instructors that, that work out with you in front of you on a big screen and so on.
[00:57:10] Um, and other people like us try to make it very, very efficient and, um, or just [00:57:20] get me help you get it done in minimal time. Um, and maybe there's, you know, there are many people out there. For some people the, the music and the, the [00:57:30] very attractive instructor is the thing that helps them get it done. Um, and wonderful.
Yeah, so, so no seriously, the, the number [00:57:40] one thing for exercise is adherence. So. Um, the, the best workout does nothing for you if you don't do it. So, so adherence is the number one. [00:57:50] So if you found something that works for you and, uh, that you enjoy and that you can stick to, that's beautiful. Um, [00:58:00] it hits own tool with a podcast.
That's great. Yeah. Um, but if you like many, yeah. The majority of the American [00:58:10] population, then lack of time will play a big role. And, um, uh, yeah, attention, your attention is, is a very [00:58:20] precious, um, commodity that people compete very hard for. And, and there's great, great companies that are very, very efficient [00:58:30] at, at, at, at stealing their attention in some ways.
Yeah. Um, and so, uh. Like, we are not gonna be more exciting and, [00:58:40] um, than TikTok and Instagram and kind of not more, uh, kind of instant gratification and satisfaction. So, so we felt we had to [00:58:50] go down a different path and just help people get the benefits in as little time as possible.
Dave: Not having enough time is very, very meaningful.
I deal [00:59:00] with it too, and I'm pretty darn optimized. So I, I feel like we don't have enough time to go through everything that we could talk about, because [00:59:10] you've gone so deep on all the science. Uh, but there is one more topic I want to go in on. If you have another couple minutes. Can you talk to me about lactate and how important that [00:59:20] is and what it does in exercise?
Ulrich: Lactate actually, um, if you switch from fat metabolism to, uh, [00:59:30] glucose and blight, um, workout. You just break the, um, the lygen, uh, molecules down, and a very [00:59:40] important, um, metabolic product of that cross is lactate. And, um, on the one hand, um, [00:59:50] it creates then a threshold for how hard and how long we can work.
So for athletes, um, improving their, their, [01:00:00] um, lack tolerance and their ability to be ate, um, in their mitochondria is really important for competitive [01:00:10] performance. Um, uh, but lactate is thought to have, um, also a bunch of, um, [01:00:20] positive, um, effects. So when it comes to, um, for example, your mental health, uh, as far as I understand.[01:00:30]
Lactate is transported to the brain and plays their really important role in your, in your neurotransmitter household, [01:00:40] and is, uh, an important, uh, actor in the production of serotonin. And so, um, while yes, uh, [01:00:50] the stuff that makes your legs burn and it also helps you, uh, kind of feel happy after workout and improve your, your mood and, um, has, uh, a [01:01:00] number of positive, um, uh, kind of, uh, results.
And I don't wanna call side them side effects, but effects,
Dave: I think lactate [01:01:10] is, is not, it, it's not respected enough as, as being both good for you and bad for you. And it's a complex thing to manage. [01:01:20] One of the technologies I use that modulates lactate is blood flow restriction bands. So you put these things on your arms or legs or both, and they restrict some blood flow, which [01:01:30] causes an increase in lactate.
And then when you take them off, you get a surge of lactate that's good for your brain and your metabolism. Can I use blood flow restriction bands with the Curl Bike? [01:01:40]
Ulrich: So, uh, I know people who do and um, I very clearly bought some of the workouts as entirely possible [01:01:50] now for we hit and just how our bike is built and how our, also our algorithms work.
Um, [01:02:00] it wouldn't be our first choice, um, for Wehi. So there's, um, if, if you want to do some of the lower intensity workouts with blood blow [01:02:10] restriction bands, absolutely. So if you, uh, especially if you had like say an injury or something that, um, limits how much [01:02:20] force like in, can we. Even if it's so short, it can even go all out.
Then I think blood flow restriction bans are entirely, um, [01:02:30] yeah, like, like good thing to use and also to use with a bike. Um, or we, it specifically, um, maybe you could, if you, if you did [01:02:40] it all the time, then maybe that would work. I wouldn't do, like sometimes with, sometimes without that, that would seem a wrong choice and Interesting.
Dave: Okay, so consistent use of [01:02:50] blood flow restriction and probably not necessary. Uh, it, it seems like you're better off to do your re-hit session Yes. 'cause it only takes five minutes and then put [01:03:00] on your blood flow restriction bands. And you can read all about this in smarter, not harder. I, I guess that tech, you can put those on and then lift some weights or just go for a walk, correct?
Yes. There's, there's good studies about [01:03:10] walking.
Ulrich: Yes, correct. So, so, um, blood flow restriction has, uh, good evidence behind it's a good thing to do. Um, especially if you [01:03:20] can't go through for, for whatever physiological, uh, like if something stops you from going, um, like up to really high [01:03:30] force. It's also a strength training if you, if you can't n super heavy and, and to get, uh, a very, very efficient, effective stimulus via, um, [01:03:40] like just going to your maximum weight.
Um, blood flow restriction bans are a very good way to get a very effective training stimulus [01:03:50] with just lower weights and lower load.
Dave: Uh, that makes good sense. So you don't need to combine the two. Um, have you heard of interval walking training?
Ulrich: I
Dave: [01:04:00] haven't.
Ulrich: Tell me about
Dave: it. Well, I came across some Japanese research and I just posted about it and the summary was twice [01:04:10] the benefits of 10,000 steps a day, and it takes 30 minutes a day and it reminded me of your work.
And they found four times the improvement in [01:04:20] blood pressure from 10,000 steps a day. A reduction of stroke risk by 40%. An improvement in sleep efficiency by 12%. This is 30 minutes a day. [01:04:30] Okay, just re-hit, takes five minutes a day and is different than this, but it's similar thinking. And here's what you [01:04:40] do.
You walk really slowly for three minutes, like with your dog, and then you walk fast for three minutes, kinda like zone two, walking for three minutes. You, you [01:04:50] know, where you're almost outta breath. And then you repeat that five times. Walks low for three, walk fast for three, and. That outperformed 10,000 [01:05:00] steps a day, which is a made up number.
Anyway, it, that was invented also by Japanese researchers in the 1950s trying to sell pedometers, like the first fitness tracker ever made up 10,000 steps a day. And [01:05:10] to this day, your Fitbit still tells you to do it and it's nonsense. I know I was CTO of the first company to get heart rate from the wrist.
I went into that history. And so what are your comments [01:05:20] on this? Crazy, intermittent, uh, whatever you wanna call it, interval walking training. The idea is rest intense, rest intense. And it's getting better results than the [01:05:30] old way of walking. It feels like it's the same algorithm. You're applying to intensity.
But just to walking
Ulrich: my, uh, you know, uh, obviously not fully informed, but [01:05:40] instant reaction would be that it's entirely plausible and that, uh, I think with exercise and hit, it's been shown, uh, quite conclusive knee that, [01:05:50] um, alternating, um, higher, lower intensity periods is more effective. Then just steady state.
[01:06:00] So I, I think it's entirely plausible. I've not read the research myself yet, but, um, I, I think this, uh, would make very good sense. And, um, it's, it's, [01:06:10] I I wouldn't be surprised if that were
Dave: beautiful. I'm, uh, I'm, I'm really impressed with your physiological knowledge and your [01:06:20] level of biohacker, cred, nerdiness and this dedication to just finding out what works, especially using the data you have that's very [01:06:30] precious.
Find out what works not for everyone, because let's face it, the 70-year-old man and the 16-year-old [01:06:40] woman or girl, whatever you wanna call her, outta my daughter's 17, I haven't figured that one out yet, but whatever that difference is, it's so broad that you can't make anything [01:06:50] up that's going to, to apply.
So let's measure and let's customize and personalize, and let's do it. Effectively and efficiently. So I, I just think that's the only [01:07:00] future that makes sense for humans when we're gonna go force ourselves exercise. So thanks for being at the very cutting edge with your work at Carol Ulrich. Appreciate you.
Ulrich: Thanks to [01:07:10] you also for, I, I meant just creating this movement and, and getting awareness to all the like, really exciting new things that, that are, [01:07:20] um, being developed. Um.
Dave: It's, it's an ex, it's very
Ulrich: necessary.
Dave: It's an exciting time. And guys, car bike.com is Code Dave, and [01:07:30] you can do this and you'll save so much time in the first a hundred days that it pays for itself if you have a decent hourly wage.
Like it, it's that big of a [01:07:40] savings. So I, I'm a big fan of doing that. Or come into Upgrade Labs, become a member and we'll do all the other stuff that stacks along with this. Either way you win. [01:07:50] So, uh, anyway, full respect and I can't wait to see what the Biohacking Conference in Austin, May 28th. You'll have tons of carols there for people to try, right?
Exactly that.
Ulrich: Yes. So [01:08:00] that's another way, um, how you can try the Carroll Bike and we'd love to see you there. Of course.
Dave: Alright guys, biohacking conference.com, uh, the original conference, and you can actually [01:08:10] meet Ulrich and all the other inventors of the cool tech that's there when you come and hang out with yours, Julie, as well.
We'll see you on the next episode. See you next time [01:08:20] on the Human Upgrade Podcast.