Nick: [00:00:00] So much better to be consistently good and [00:00:02] just push a little bit more as opposed to [00:00:04]
Dave: emptying the tank over and over again. [00:00:06] There's something that entrepreneurs do [00:00:08] and just high performance people do. There can be [00:00:10] something around like a fear of
Nick: [00:00:12] mediocrity. Mm-hmm. This fear of [00:00:14] being inferior to your [00:00:16] potential self is actually like [00:00:18] one of the strongest drives that you can.[00:00:20]
Utilize and have
Speaker: a college [00:00:22] startup success story. One decade [00:00:24] ago, our next guest turned his passion [00:00:26] for fitness and nutrition into a business, [00:00:28] and today is worth $40 [00:00:30] million. Joining us right now is Army Veteran [00:00:32] founder of Bear Performance Nutrition, [00:00:34] Nick Bear.
Nick: I think what happens and why people [00:00:36] fail is that they, instead of going [00:00:38] into the day and into life, into a [00:00:40] season, being proactively prepared, [00:00:42] it's all reactive.
Dave: How do you match [00:00:44] willpower to physiological [00:00:46] limits, or do you just assume you're gonna handle it? [00:00:48] You [00:00:50] are listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave [00:00:52] Asprey.[00:00:54]
[00:00:56] There's something that entrepreneurs do [00:00:58] and just high performance people do, and I've [00:01:00] studied high performance as much as I can, [00:01:02] you know, 1300 episodes in. I've [00:01:04] talked to some, you know, people in different [00:01:06] fields. They're like, wow, I can't believe that [00:01:08] there can be something around like a [00:01:10] fear of
Nick: mediocrity.
Mm-hmm. Is that a [00:01:12] trap? I don't think it's a trap. I [00:01:14] think it's a. A [00:01:16] necessity. Mm-hmm. I think that [00:01:18] is like the drive. [00:01:20] There's this book that I [00:01:22] absolutely love and I'm drawing the blank of the [00:01:24] name right now. The [00:01:26] Courage to Be Disliked. Yeah, that's what it's [00:01:28] called, the Courage to Be Disliked, and it [00:01:30] talks about the difference between [00:01:32] feelings of being [00:01:34] inferior and.
[00:01:36] Inferiority complex [00:01:38] where the feelings of being [00:01:40] inferior are actually a [00:01:42] strength and required to [00:01:44] succeed, but there's, [00:01:46] there's negative consequences [00:01:48] of an inferiority [00:01:50] complex. So I think this, this [00:01:52] fear of being [00:01:54] mediocre. Mm-hmm. This fear of being [00:01:56] inferior to [00:01:58] your potential self. [00:02:00] Is actually like one of the strongest [00:02:02] drives that you can utilize and [00:02:04] have.
I mean, I, that's what drives me. [00:02:06] Like I, [00:02:08] I visualize where I [00:02:10] could be where I want to go, [00:02:12] but I have to make the [00:02:14] choices to get there. Mm-hmm. I'm not gonna just get [00:02:16] there on autopilot. So [00:02:18] there is this constant [00:02:20] fear of. Not being able [00:02:22] to reach what I could have, [00:02:24] and especially once you gain some momentum, [00:02:26] right?
You know, I've been building [00:02:28] now for over a decade, [00:02:30] and once you start gaining some momentum and you [00:02:32] start getting some wins, you don't [00:02:34] wanna lose that momentum. You don't wanna go [00:02:36] backwards, you don't wanna maintain. [00:02:38] So it's like foot pressed against [00:02:40] the floor, gas pedal [00:02:42] down. How do I [00:02:44] keep improving? How do I keep getting [00:02:46] better?
Right. And that's what going more [00:02:48] is all about. It's, it's an outcome. It's not just [00:02:50] doing more to do more. [00:02:52] How do I actually progress? [00:02:54] Mm-hmm. Maybe it's doing different [00:02:56] to achieve
Dave: Yeah.
Nick: All the [00:02:58] things that I want to,
Dave: I, I really [00:03:00] like that nuance where it's not [00:03:02] necessarily doing one more of [00:03:04] what you just did, but it's, it's like one [00:03:06] more unit in the direction you're [00:03:08] headed and that's how I'm approaching [00:03:10] my longevity stuff.
You know, I've read a [00:03:12] major longevity book plan to live to at least [00:03:14] 180. And it, it's [00:03:16] all right. Is there one more thing I can do that's [00:03:18] gonna move the needle in the right direction? And [00:03:20] just constant application of [00:03:22] technique and force [00:03:24] versus just a constant application of [00:03:26] force. So that becomes more elegant [00:03:28] over time as you get more wisdom and you know what works [00:03:30] better.
And I'm getting that vibe from [00:03:32] your book for sure.
Nick: How do you, [00:03:34] so there's a, like [00:03:36] in terms of longevity, [00:03:38] uhhuh, there's all these things that you can be doing. [00:03:40] Yep. How do [00:03:42] you measure [00:03:44] what is considered successful, and [00:03:46] then what do you leverage because. [00:03:48] You can't spend all your time doing a million different [00:03:50] things.
How do, how do you decide what's [00:03:52] incremental?
Dave: This is [00:03:54] the most fun thing. And it's [00:03:56] funny, I'm friends with Brent Johnson [00:03:58] who's, you know, been in the media late. You, you've probably [00:04:00] come across this stuff. [00:04:02] And I did this campaign a while ago. I'm like, I spent [00:04:04] $2 million to reverse my age by 20 [00:04:06] years, et cetera, et cetera.[00:04:08]
But I spent that over 20 years. [00:04:10] So you measure it with lab [00:04:12] tests and you measure it with, oh, there's about [00:04:14] 50 different ways you can measure [00:04:16] the functionality of, of [00:04:18] your body and your mind. So [00:04:20] EEG grip [00:04:22] strength is one way to do it. Lots of [00:04:24] lab tests. Think of it like this. [00:04:26] Uh, what do you drive? What kind of vehicle?
It's [00:04:28] a Ford F-150 [00:04:30] Raptor. Nice. I'm actually thinking about [00:04:32] buying one of those right now. Um, I had a [00:04:34] F-150. I tricked out when I lived up my [00:04:36] farm. It's exactly the [00:04:38] Raptor I'm looking at buying, actually. Uh, you wanna sell me yours? [00:04:40] I'm kidding. Uh, but, [00:04:42] uh, if you were to take it into a [00:04:44] mechanic and say, I wanna do preventative maintenance on it.[00:04:46]
There's a maintenance schedule, [00:04:48] right? And you gotta change the transmission [00:04:50] fluid at a certain time. You gotta change the [00:04:52] windshield wipers at a different time, [00:04:54] right? Rotate the tires. Like all this stuff [00:04:56] that you probably don't do. No one rotates tires anymore, but you're [00:04:58] supposed to. So if you were to say, [00:05:00] I want you to keep this truck new, it's [00:05:02] as close new as possible, and I don't [00:05:04] care if you have to change the oil every [00:05:06] 1000 miles versus every 5,000, right?[00:05:08]
And I want you to [00:05:10] preventatively. Stop anything [00:05:12] catastrophic. So we're gonna, you know, put [00:05:14] gaskets in the engine. We're gonna change out [00:05:16] the um, [00:05:18] uh, that's actually a, a [00:05:20] turbocharge V six, right? Twin turbos. It is, [00:05:22] yeah. Yeah. Uh, same one ahead. [00:05:24] So, uh, with that, [00:05:26] alright, what's the turbo maintenance cycle that [00:05:28] the manufacturer recommends and what's the [00:05:30] optimal one so that when you had a [00:05:32] hundred thousand miles.
Well, it [00:05:34] probably needs paint, but everything else is fine. [00:05:36] Right? And to build to 200,000, [00:05:38] 300,000, our bodies have the [00:05:40] same thing. So there's about seven different [00:05:42] systems that are the things that cause you [00:05:44] to, to, you know, to age. [00:05:46] And there's four things that are gonna kill [00:05:48] you. So prioritize, just like you're saying, [00:05:50] you know, going more, well, let's not die of the [00:05:52] stupid stuff that we know is gonna get you like [00:05:54] diabetes, right?
So you put that at the [00:05:56] top, don't get diabetes, which is a [00:05:58] precursor to cancer. And a [00:06:00] precursor to heart disease and a precursor to Alzheimer's. [00:06:02] So number one, don't die of stupid [00:06:04] shit. Stop the four [00:06:06] killers and then everything else is [00:06:08] maintenance. But if, [00:06:10] if you're time limited [00:06:12] on your truck, the windshield [00:06:14] washer system, not [00:06:16] mission critical, you might maintain that [00:06:18] one less.
[00:06:20] So I set aside [00:06:22] X amount of time every day for my [00:06:24] longevity practice and. [00:06:26] You look at some of the people in the [00:06:28] longevity movement in the last couple years, [00:06:30] they'll spend eight hours a day [00:06:32] on their longevity. And I'm like, you [00:06:34] gotta, you're only awake for 16 [00:06:36] hours a day, so you spent 50% of your [00:06:38] waking life investing in [00:06:40] longevity.
That means you gotta live [00:06:42] 30% longer just to break even. [00:06:44] And I'm hour a [00:06:46] day, sometimes more if I want to, and it's [00:06:48] fun. And so for me it's [00:06:50] allocating time and then allocating [00:06:52] effort within the time. So it's like I'm gonna [00:06:54] go one more, but I'm gonna [00:06:56] cram it all into that, [00:06:58] into that one hour as best I can.
Yeah. [00:07:00] And everything else, habits, [00:07:02] what we talked about. My house is [00:07:04] built, so my environment helps me stay [00:07:06] longer. My bed is often optimized, my bedroom's [00:07:08] optimized, but I'm not spending time on it. I [00:07:10] just set it up. Right. And there's [00:07:12] some element, I think, as an [00:07:14] entrepreneur, as a dad, right. [00:07:16] You know, I, I'm sure, 'cause [00:07:18] you're ex-military, you've got a go bagg at [00:07:20] home, right?
Mm-hmm. You also have a [00:07:22] diaper go bagg, and it's all set up, right? [00:07:24] Imagine how much time that buys you, [00:07:26] right? So it's time to go, let's [00:07:28] grab a versus, oh man, [00:07:30] let's take an hour to get out, out the door, right? So [00:07:32] like, organization and [00:07:34] making your environment [00:07:36] functional, I think is, is [00:07:38] underrepresented as it's so [00:07:40] important for health and for longevity and [00:07:42] for parenting.
I think you can squeeze [00:07:44] two hours a day. Uh, for doing [00:07:46] stuff that matters by [00:07:48] consciously planning things or getting rid of things that [00:07:50] don't matter. Yeah. Just 'cause you're doing it wrong. Do you [00:07:52] spend a lot of time optimizing like that? [00:07:54] Like more Tim Ferris style?
Nick: [00:07:56] Yeah, but it's more so that [00:07:58] forward thinking, backwards [00:08:00] planning approach where I'm [00:08:02] constantly [00:08:04] optimizing, but optimizing for [00:08:06] efficiency.
Whether that's [00:08:08] in my workouts [00:08:10] or diet [00:08:12] and yeah, meal prep and just having [00:08:14] things accessible. [00:08:16] Like if, if I look in the [00:08:18] freezer and we [00:08:20] have less than two weeks [00:08:22] worth of meat in there, I am ordering meat [00:08:24] so we don't run out. You know, I'm at a [00:08:26] point where like, I don't wanna. [00:08:28] Not have the things that I [00:08:30] need, I want in [00:08:32] excess and optimize to set [00:08:34] me up for success.
That comment [00:08:36] kind of makes me think of [00:08:38] something around going more. I'm [00:08:40] curious your thoughts around it [00:08:42] in terms of like this, maintaining this new [00:08:44] car approach. Mm-hmm. [00:08:46] I'm a big advocate and fan of [00:08:48] in certain times and [00:08:50] places really pushing.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. [00:08:52]
Nick: Whether that's an [00:08:54] endurance effort, an ultra, like [00:08:56] really digging in deep.[00:08:58]
Yeah. Which is not optimal, [00:09:00] but I believe that it [00:09:02] unlocks these new [00:09:04] perspectives and thoughts mm-hmm. [00:09:06] That are [00:09:08] absolutely critical and beneficial [00:09:10] mentally and can be physically [00:09:12] and emotionally as well. Mm-hmm. Like when I've [00:09:14] done these alters before, they are by no means [00:09:16] healthy. But I've come out on [00:09:18] the other side with this new perspective [00:09:20] that I've been able to apply and, [00:09:22] and grow from.
Mm-hmm. [00:09:24] With that being said, you know, that is part [00:09:26] of going more and then [00:09:28] with your approach to longevity of [00:09:30] trying to maintain the [00:09:32] car as new as possible for as long as [00:09:34] possible. Mm-hmm. How do you think [00:09:36] of that? And [00:09:38] then certain times and places really [00:09:40] pushing. So this,
Dave: this [00:09:42] is a fun conversation. So [00:09:44] there's, there's the, the [00:09:46] crucible, these points where you [00:09:48] think you're at rock bottom.
[00:09:50] You're not, and you discover a new [00:09:52] capability, a new layer. Right. And [00:09:54] that's some of the most [00:09:56] powerful spiritual growth you can do. [00:09:58] Yeah. I agree. Right. And [00:10:00] there's also near death experiences, [00:10:02] which usually precede a shamon [00:10:04] awakening. And I've had a couple near [00:10:06] death experiences, and. [00:10:08] The idea here is you don't [00:10:10] want to go that far where you [00:10:12] actually die.
Or [00:10:14] actually, I was here a guy who's, you know, [00:10:16] explored glaciers and on and he's [00:10:18] missing a finger because of [00:10:20] frostbite. Like he went too far.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. [00:10:22]
Dave: Right. [00:10:24] What I think we can all learn from is, [00:10:26] uh, Marx Sisson was just here a [00:10:28] couple, couple weeks ago talking about [00:10:30] his, his cool new shoe company. [00:10:32] And he, he is like, you know, I [00:10:34] wish I'd have done less endurance work [00:10:36] when I was younger.
'cause I'm feeling it [00:10:38] now. And he's, you know, an epic [00:10:40] epic runner and, uh, endurance [00:10:42] thing. So he changed his training [00:10:44] to, to push much less [00:10:46] in the training, but to have more efficiency. [00:10:48] He just did it later in life. And I [00:10:50] think there's a big lesson for that. 'cause man, when [00:10:52] you're, you're 25, [00:10:54] you have this abundant, uh, [00:10:56] q you know, you could call this, this, this [00:10:58] energy and you can.[00:11:00]
You can spend it on running long [00:11:02] distances and say, [00:11:04] ah, my knee hurts a little bit, it'll be fine. It's [00:11:06] actually not gonna be fine. Like [00:11:08] when, when you're 50, [00:11:10] if you don't maintain that system, [00:11:12] it's like, yeah, that bearing made a little noise. [00:11:14] Well, that whole front end is gonna need [00:11:16] a replacement if you don't Yeah, if you don't [00:11:18] fix that.
So there's this, [00:11:20] this desire to push versus [00:11:22] maintain and. [00:11:24] I think all men especially, and [00:11:26] some women too, but it may be more of a male thing. [00:11:28] Like we're, we're just wired to do [00:11:30] that, you know, get it done. And mother nature [00:11:32] wires us that way. 'cause it's like, well, [00:11:34] you know, make sure that you, you know, [00:11:36] protect the, the castle, [00:11:38] you know, kill the deer, whatever your, [00:11:40] your job is.
As long as you have a [00:11:42] couple babies and you know it's alright, you [00:11:44] get disabled, you either become an elder or they'll [00:11:46] push you off the cliff. Right? And that's [00:11:48] kind of the way of things. And if we want to [00:11:50] change the way of things, it [00:11:52] means that we talk with our younger [00:11:54] men, like, all right, here's the maintenance cycles, [00:11:56] here's the necessary maintenance cycles, and here's the [00:11:58] optimal maintenance cycles.
And you get to choose. [00:12:00] Mm-hmm. And we apply our [00:12:02] willpower to that. And for me that was a big shift. [00:12:04] 'cause like I said, you know, multiple [00:12:06] surgeries before I'm 25, just from pushing [00:12:08] myself. Well, yeah, I [00:12:10] pushed myself till I couldn't walk. That wasn't a [00:12:12] good move. So [00:12:14] we know that ultra endurance [00:12:16] events, the [00:12:18] benefit of those is, [00:12:20] uh, bill Andrews a [00:12:22] TA 65, uh, [00:12:24] proponent talks about lengthening [00:12:26] telomeres.
So there's something about ultra endurance [00:12:28] that does that, and [00:12:30] we know from Marxist. And then, you know, look at [00:12:32] any old endurance athlete. [00:12:34] They, they show the miles, right? [00:12:36] Right. So your job [00:12:38] is okay. You wanna do [00:12:40] it because it brings you joy, [00:12:42] right? And I respect that. And it [00:12:44] brings you spiritual growth. And I respect that even more [00:12:46] than joy.
So [00:12:48] what do you do before, during, [00:12:50] and after so that you [00:12:52] recover faster than humans are supposed to? [00:12:54] And this has been my, [00:12:56] my whole thing, how do I push myself and [00:12:58] still have the powers? [00:13:00] That's what Upgrade Labs is for. Like, I'll [00:13:02] walk on a tour of the place here [00:13:04] in um. Here in Austin, [00:13:06] and we use all this crazy [00:13:08] gear that most people don't even know exists [00:13:10] to cause recovery faster than Mother [00:13:12] Nature.
But you know what most people [00:13:14] do when they finish a [00:13:16] marathon? They celebrate with [00:13:18] pizza and beer. Like, yeah, I can go eat some dude, [00:13:20] don't you celebrate with [00:13:22] ribeye and some collagen, right? An [00:13:24] extra sleep. And if I was you. [00:13:26] And it, there's no rules against it [00:13:28] in whatever, uh, competing body. [00:13:30] But like I'd hit the growth hormone for a [00:13:32] week, I'd make sure my testosterone [00:13:34] levels are artificially elevated [00:13:36] just for a brief period afterwards.
And you're on [00:13:38] the perfect amino amino acids and [00:13:40] you're doing crazy amounts of [00:13:42] electrolytes and like you're stacking [00:13:44] it. So your body's like, yes, like I [00:13:46] got everything. I took a [00:13:48] hit. But I didn't take a, a [00:13:50] damaging hit and you know, that [00:13:52] limit that you feel like I really don't have any more to [00:13:54] push. Mm-hmm.
It's actually a cortisol and adrenaline [00:13:56] production limit. So you might as well take [00:13:58] some of the tyrosine precursors that let you [00:14:00] make more of those and you might wanna [00:14:02] extend their, in their life, in your [00:14:04] body with adaptogens. [00:14:06] So when you start, one of these things I like, I [00:14:08] got actually more stress hormones.
[00:14:10] I would treat yourself after a hundred [00:14:12] mile race or something like you just had surgery, [00:14:14] like literally resting that [00:14:16] much. I'd be taking [00:14:18] low dose bioidentical [00:14:20] cortisol because your body can't make [00:14:22] enough. Right. And if you do that, you're like, [00:14:24] wow, I did it. [00:14:26] I pushed the limit. I. Then [00:14:28] I recovered. And my issue has [00:14:30] always been, I don't wanna recover.
As soon as I'm [00:14:32] 20% recovered, I'm gonna go push again. [00:14:34] Right. And it shows in my entrepreneurial [00:14:36] success and all the stuff I do. And there's, [00:14:38] I'm, I'm sure it'll, it my, [00:14:40] when I'm 180 years old, I'll be like, [00:14:42] shit, I shouldn't have done that because I [00:14:44] probably had another, you know, another [00:14:46] 50 years I could have squeezed out.
That's not gonna happen though. [00:14:48] 'cause we got other tech coming. But [00:14:50] I would just say, oh and hyperbaric, man. [00:14:52] You know, you have a hyperbaric chamber. I don't have [00:14:54] one now. So get yourself an Oxy Health Chamber. [00:14:56] Right. I got Does it make that big of a difference? [00:14:58] Yeah. I got one downstairs, I'll show it to you.
Right. I have [00:15:00] a whole lab downstairs. That's my recovery [00:15:02] place. It's mostly in, mostly what's at [00:15:04] upgrade labs and uh, [00:15:06] there's a place called a TX hyperbaric, so you can go, [00:15:08] I dunno how far that is from you, but [00:15:10] B caves I think is where it's, but [00:15:12] um, that makes a huge difference. [00:15:14] So if you were to do, you know, five or 10 of [00:15:16] those after a run, like, you're like, [00:15:18] wow, my body stayed [00:15:20] young.
Right. And that's pretty [00:15:22] incredible.[00:15:24] [00:15:26]
Do you get your lab work done [00:15:28] regularly? I do. Yeah. Good deal. So you keep monitoring your [00:15:30] testosterone. If your free testosterone [00:15:32] drops below 20, do [00:15:34] something about it. It means you're over training, [00:15:36] you're not eating enough fat and protein, uh, [00:15:38] or maybe you need to supplement the [00:15:40] testosterone. 'cause man, that's the [00:15:42] first thing.
Like right now, [00:15:44] I could tell, I mean, you've got the muscles, your [00:15:46] testosterone levels are fine, but. [00:15:48] If your testosterone drops, your dopamine [00:15:50] drops.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Dave: And dopamine is what makes [00:15:52] everything in. Go one more. [00:15:54] Go. Right. Dopamine [00:15:56] motivates you to move towards the goal, but if you get the [00:15:58] goal, you don't get, you know you're not [00:16:00] happy.
Yeah. Right. It's just about [00:16:02] motivation. So T drops, [00:16:04] dopamine drops, and you're screwed. [00:16:06] Guess what? Reliably drops [00:16:08] testosterone. Lack of sleep. [00:16:10] Diet over [00:16:12] training stress. Those are [00:16:14] all true and [00:16:16] and well known. Here's the one no one knows about. [00:16:18] Having babies drops. [00:16:20] Testosterone. Really? The smell of [00:16:22] babies drops.
Testosterone. Yeah. As soon [00:16:24] as you have a baby in the house, [00:16:26] especially the first couple years, your testosterone levels are [00:16:28] lower. Does it come back as they get older? [00:16:30] It it does. If you're maintaining your health, [00:16:32] right? So if you're sleeping and you're [00:16:34] exercising, eating the right stuff, [00:16:36] right, and it'll come back.
'cause why does Mother [00:16:38] Nature do that? [00:16:40] So you don't kill your kids [00:16:42] for real. 'cause the link [00:16:44] between. Is this only in men, not women? The link [00:16:46] between sexual desire and [00:16:48] aggression or violence, they're [00:16:50] same part of the brain.
Nick: Does that have [00:16:52] anything to do with, is it [00:16:54] directly related to the lack of [00:16:56] sleep? I.
From having [00:16:58] newborns in the house, or is
Dave: it indirectly? It [00:17:00] actually isn't. I'm sure lack of sleep from [00:17:02] newborns always, always affects [00:17:04] it. This is the smell of [00:17:06] babies, the pheromones and the chemical signals [00:17:08] that come off babies. It's very interesting. Yeah, it's [00:17:10] super interesting, like we respond to all [00:17:12] these invisible signals, the environment.[00:17:14]
And that's why I'm so keen on [00:17:16] the definition of biohacking. It's like [00:17:18] change the environment around you and inside you. So you [00:17:20] have full C control of your biology, right? [00:17:22] Which you can do longevity, you can do physical performance, mental [00:17:24] performance, but knowing that the [00:17:26] smell of the people around you, [00:17:28] whether it's, you know, the smell [00:17:30] of a fertile woman or the smell of a [00:17:32] baby in the house, your body will respond [00:17:34] and then you'll feel something, [00:17:36] right?
And you're like, wow, maybe I'm less [00:17:38] motivated 'cause my [00:17:40] testosterone, that's kind of weird. [00:17:42] Right. And it is not a huge [00:17:44] drop from just the babies, but if you [00:17:46] look at people's blood levels before and [00:17:48] after they have kids, it's gonna be [00:17:50] down. And all the contributing factors, I don't know what all I don't [00:17:52] think anybody does, but they can find this in mice.[00:17:54]
That's super interesting. [00:17:56] Right? And so like we want to [00:17:58] maintain our vibe as guys and [00:18:00] as dads, and as entrepreneurs, and [00:18:02] as people doing things in the world. [00:18:04] So then the next question is, [00:18:06] you are doing ultra endurance because it [00:18:08] shows you something right? [00:18:10] Is there another way [00:18:12] that takes less hits on your system that [00:18:14] shows you the same thing?
Nick: Not that [00:18:16] I've been able to find it. Yeah. I [00:18:18] wonder. And for me, I think if a lot of [00:18:20] people look at my, [00:18:22] like if, if you go on my YouTube channel, for [00:18:24] example, where we have documentaries and we've mm-hmm. [00:18:26] We've showcased a lot of these [00:18:28] preps and races. Yeah. [00:18:30] I think a lot of people assume that [00:18:32] I'm out there running.
[00:18:34] 20 to 30 miles a day. [00:18:36] Sometimes when I come across people, they think I trained four to [00:18:38] five hours a day. That, that's [00:18:40] crazy. Which is the furthest thing from the truth. [00:18:42] Yeah. How, how much time do you train? One to two [00:18:44] hours. Okay. Like this morning I [00:18:46] ran, uh, and just based off my [00:18:48] schedule today, that I'll be my only workout.
But there are [00:18:50] days where I, I run in the morning, then I lift in the [00:18:52] afternoon, but really it's not [00:18:54] over two hours a day right [00:18:56] now. And there are definitely. [00:18:58] There's times where my [00:19:00] training increases and mm-hmm. I'm, I'm [00:19:02] getting closer to a prep, but I build into that. [00:19:04] It's very structured, so [00:19:06] it's, it's [00:19:08] seasons and the training [00:19:10] is specific to the goal that I'm trying to [00:19:12] accomplish.
And if I have a very [00:19:14] specific goal that requires a very [00:19:16] specific structured training
Speaker 4: mm-hmm. [00:19:18]
Nick: That is like [00:19:20] the, the exception [00:19:22] that is the outlier. It is not [00:19:24] that daily. If I did that daily [00:19:26] for an extended period of [00:19:28] time, I'd be [00:19:30] dragging really hard. It would, it would ruin you. [00:19:32] Right. But there, there are seasons and I think this [00:19:34] is why it's really [00:19:36] important to look at life in certain [00:19:38] goals.
The way that athletes look at their, their [00:19:40] goals. You have in season [00:19:42] and you have off season. Off [00:19:44] season you are building in. [00:19:46] Redundancies and working on [00:19:48] weaknesses and resting a [00:19:50] little bit more. Recovery is a [00:19:52] priority, right? When you're in [00:19:54] season, you're getting beat down, but you [00:19:56] need that off season to [00:19:58] reset, prepare, [00:20:00] and then go into the next season [00:20:02] as ready as possible.
How long is the [00:20:04] season for you? Is can you
Dave: have a season for [00:20:06] one week, like a week of pushing a week of [00:20:08] recovery, or a day of pushing a day of [00:20:10] recovery?
Nick: No, it's, it's [00:20:12] like extended weeks. Okay. It's like [00:20:14] right now I am in a season of a, [00:20:16] a sprint, right. Of a lot of things [00:20:18] in terms of business, [00:20:20] family, [00:20:22] very ambitious goals.
So when [00:20:24] I'm in a really busy [00:20:26] season where I'm trying to accomplish a lot of [00:20:28] large goals, I get [00:20:30] very strict and rigid [00:20:32] with my boundaries. I set [00:20:34] very strict boundaries [00:20:36] in terms of like. Who am I [00:20:38] speaking to? What am I consuming? What [00:20:40] am I traveling to? Yeah. Teach that to [00:20:42] everyone, man. So I can just focus. I [00:20:44] have found so much power in the ability [00:20:46] to, to focus.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Nick: As [00:20:48] a young entrepreneur growing [00:20:50] up, every [00:20:52] opportunity was the right opportunity. [00:20:54] If there was an opportunity presented in itself in [00:20:56] front of me, I said yes to everything. [00:20:58] I got really good at saying [00:21:00] no to a lot of things over time. [00:21:02] And that allowed me to [00:21:04] hyperfocus and go all in [00:21:06] on very few things.[00:21:08]
So for the thousand things I [00:21:10] say no to when I say [00:21:12] yes, it's a really strong yes. [00:21:14] And I can dedicate a [00:21:16] lot of time to that. I've [00:21:18] had to learn that the hardest way ever. [00:21:20] Yeah.
Dave: But [00:21:22] it's been powerful. It, it [00:21:24] is it's one of the most important [00:21:26] things and I still say [00:21:28] yes. A lot, but only [00:21:30] to the good stuff.
And if [00:21:32] there's an abundance of good stuff, I, I, [00:21:34] uh, I'm always working on making [00:21:36] sure that my team is in place to support [00:21:38] that. I focus on sprints and I focus on [00:21:40] recovery, and I use [00:21:42] tech to recover, uh, whenever I [00:21:44] possibly can. So if I have an hour, I'm gonna [00:21:46] recover. It's like how many different [00:21:48] things can I layer in?
Right? [00:21:50] Uh, I just got a new [00:21:52] morphous. Which is, uh, one of the, [00:21:54] the companies at the, the conference, [00:21:56] it's this big whole body vibration [00:21:58] chair. Like you, you sit in the thing and [00:22:00] put on goggles and just go on a [00:22:02] journey that's not, so I'm, I got [00:22:04] lasers on my head. I got compression, [00:22:06] uh, sleeves on my [00:22:08] legs and I'm like, what else can I [00:22:10] stick on my body for recovery if I'm gonna [00:22:12] spend 40 minutes right now?
What have [00:22:14] you noticed from, from using [00:22:16] that? It's kind of like. [00:22:18] Like an exceptionally deep [00:22:20] meditation, uh, and the physical [00:22:22] vibration affects your [00:22:24] mitochondria. It, it really shifts you [00:22:26] out of paras or out of [00:22:28] sympathetic into parasympathetic. So it [00:22:30] drops you into a deeper relaxation more [00:22:32] quickly. And the ultimate I.
[00:22:34] Goal, even when you're doing these endurance things, [00:22:36] is to be able to go into sustained [00:22:38] sympathetic drive and then to be able to [00:22:40] quickly and effort effortlessly [00:22:42] switch into deep [00:22:44] parasympathetic recovery. So the harder [00:22:46] and longer you go hard, [00:22:48] the, the, [00:22:50] the faster and deeper and longer you [00:22:52] want to go in recovery.
So for me [00:22:54] it's like how do I control the switch to move [00:22:56] between the two? And it's, [00:22:58] it's interesting because [00:23:00] the endurance stuff is [00:23:02] one thing, right? It's [00:23:04] one form of stress, but so is entrepreneurial stress, [00:23:06] so is parenting stress, right? So you've [00:23:08] built yourself be an incredibly resilient [00:23:10] person, and also with wisdom, [00:23:12] because you're saying, well, all right, how do I [00:23:14] not take the hits for the things I I [00:23:16] love?
And I've, man, have you [00:23:18] ever, um, ever [00:23:20] been dropped off in a cave in [00:23:22] darkness for a while or done a [00:23:24] vipasana or [00:23:26] done. Some sort of, I mean, there's a bunch, there's [00:23:28] like a bullet and ceremony, [00:23:30] like, so something that's gonna push you to [00:23:32] your limits [00:23:34] over a one to three day period [00:23:36] that isn't physical endurance.[00:23:38]
Speaker 4: Mm.
Dave: To be honest, I [00:23:40] don't, I don't think so. See [00:23:42] that, that might be an interesting way to, to [00:23:44] look at this. All right, so what are my [00:23:46] limits for tolerating [00:23:48] pain? Right. [00:23:50] How can I stay calm and peaceful and [00:23:52] surrendered? Not harm. Not damage, [00:23:54] just pain. And it's [00:23:56] funny, there's a, a practice in, [00:23:58] uh, in my new [00:24:00] book I.
It's called [00:24:02] bicep. It's brief, intentional, [00:24:04] conscious exposure to pain. [00:24:06] And I'm guessing you do cold plunges some of [00:24:08] the time. Yep. Yeah. Right. So [00:24:10] that's the biohacker equivalent of that. [00:24:12] But monks used to whip themselves on their [00:24:14] back and yogis, [00:24:16] you know, lay on beds and nails. And [00:24:18] there's other practices where, [00:24:20] um, people will, [00:24:22] uh, like they'll get piercings, like the [00:24:24] Native American, the sun dancers, you know, [00:24:26] they'll, they'll do some crazy stuff.
It looks crazy to [00:24:28] us, but they're entering altered [00:24:30] states. By pushing the limits of [00:24:32] their pain receptors. What that [00:24:34] does, uh, even getting a lot of [00:24:36] ink, you've got some ink, you know, it hurts, but [00:24:38] afterwards you're in a different state. Right. [00:24:40] Would a sauna like a really hot [00:24:42] sauna categorizes it? If it's, if it's [00:24:44] hot like a sweat lodge hot [00:24:46] where it's really uncomfortable, it [00:24:48] probably works.
Nick: I mean, I stay in my sauna [00:24:50] until. I can't take it [00:24:52] any longer. Yeah. And I have to get out. [00:24:54]
Dave: Yeah. I get in there for a long time in mind [00:24:56] too. What that's doing though [00:24:58] is changing dopamine receptor [00:25:00] sensitivity, and that's why this is a practice that's [00:25:02] interesting. It means it takes less dopamine to motivate [00:25:04] you.
So because you're in your sauna until [00:25:06] it really hurts and because you're doing a cold [00:25:08] plunge, it doesn't feel good. [00:25:10] That's changing your motivation [00:25:12] and I think some of the ultra endurance, [00:25:14] you're entering an altered state for sure, [00:25:16] but you're also. [00:25:18] Experiencing a level of pain [00:25:20] that's changing your motivation [00:25:22] for long periods of time [00:25:24] and understanding the neuroscience brand, that for me, [00:25:26] is fascinating.
I don't think I'm [00:25:28] ever likely to be doing endurance events [00:25:30] just because, you know, I've, I've had enough, [00:25:32] uh, enough surgeries on my joints that that's [00:25:34] not a good plan for me. [00:25:36] But experiencing [00:25:38] altered states because you're pushing yourself [00:25:40] harder than you think you can, [00:25:42] I think it's part of continuing to evolve.
[00:25:44] And it's like when you're 50 or [00:25:46] 60, how are you gonna do it? Right? [00:25:48] And it may be, you see, like Laird [00:25:50] Hamilton and Mark Sisson are talking about, you know, they're [00:25:52] surfing, but they're doing a lot of breath work. Mm-hmm. You [00:25:54] do a lot of breath work? No, none. [00:25:56] Oh, okay. So there's, there's an edge for [00:25:58] you. Like if you were to go [00:26:00] do a really deep holotropic breathing [00:26:02] session, this is like taking [00:26:04] LSD, the guy who invented it actually used [00:26:06] LSD therapeutically with patients [00:26:08] legally.
Uh, it was on the show years [00:26:10] ago and something like that. Like, wow, [00:26:12] okay. I thought I was pushing [00:26:14] myself hard. And then you're, you're now [00:26:16] facing an inner demon, [00:26:18] right? That, so I, I'm, I'm [00:26:20] getting a vibe and I'm interviewing [00:26:22] here. I'm learning from you too, [00:26:24] that you're seeking a [00:26:26] state from these alter endurance runs.[00:26:28]
I am, yeah. That's the, the only reason that I [00:26:30] do it. Okay. So [00:26:32] then in your business, [00:26:34] you're looking to sell something, [00:26:36] so you do. Testing [00:26:38] of different platforms to see what your [00:26:40] ROAS is, right? Your return on ad [00:26:42] spend. Alright, if I run an ad here, I get [00:26:44] someone to come to these epic races you're [00:26:46] putting together, right?
And if you run it over here, it [00:26:48] doesn't pay off, right? Or it pays [00:26:50] off, but you only, you know, it only pays half as [00:26:52] much. And so [00:26:54] if we reframe what you're doing [00:26:56] as you're seeking a state, what's the [00:26:58] state you're seeking and what's the way to [00:27:00] get there? Right. And how do you [00:27:02] stay fit and [00:27:04] hard and motivated and [00:27:06] focused?
And [00:27:08] have less, either less [00:27:10] wear and tear on the system [00:27:12] or less maintenance cycles required [00:27:14] to get the same or better results. [00:27:16] And I, it's not the [00:27:18] same as a run, but high altitude [00:27:20] mountaineering, I, I did a lot of this. I went to [00:27:22] remote parts and AAL and Tibet, you at [00:27:24] 18,000 feet elevation and, [00:27:26] you know, 10 degrees below zero and just [00:27:28] miserably cold and like you gotta make [00:27:30] it to the next place or you'll actually freeze to [00:27:32] death.
Right. And I [00:27:34] did a lot of that before I had kids. [00:27:36] And there's some something [00:27:38] spiritual and special about that. I just don't [00:27:40] do that anymore, but I, I [00:27:42] do a lot of altered states work, [00:27:44] so we're trading books anyway, so I'm gonna get to [00:27:46] dig in on, go one more and I'll give you heavily [00:27:48] meditated and talk about some of those texts.
[00:27:50] Yeah, I'm very curious. Maybe come on over some [00:27:52] time and we will, uh, we'll do some breath work [00:27:54] and. And see go, oh wait, that state [00:27:56] is like 80% of what I'm getting over there [00:27:58] and let's come up with your recipe book for [00:28:00] that. And I think for, for new [00:28:02] dads, this is pretty [00:28:04] powerful. 'cause there's gonna be times when you're, I gotta, [00:28:06] you know, either I drop the kids off at school, which I [00:28:08] don't love doing, but it's your [00:28:10] job 'cause you have their dad.
They gotta see you doing that. [00:28:12] And if you're gonna do that this [00:28:14] morning, you may not go on the run. You want to go on. Mm-hmm. Like, [00:28:16] you gotta make a trade. But how are you gonna get [00:28:18] there anyway? Right. So I, I think [00:28:20] there's some tools that could be kind of cool to, we'll [00:28:22] swap some notes here. Yeah.
Nick: Right. [00:28:24] Yeah.
Running and endurance [00:28:26] training has always [00:28:28] been my form of [00:28:30] meditation. Meditation, yeah. [00:28:32] And the amount of [00:28:34] just transformation [00:28:36] and clarity and [00:28:38] ideas that I've, I've gained [00:28:40] from those early morning runs. [00:28:42] I mean, I've. [00:28:44] If there's a problem in my life mm-hmm. [00:28:46] I know it's a problem that I need to solve [00:28:48] because it will keep popping up in my mind, [00:28:50] naturally.
Run [00:28:52] after run after run. And until I [00:28:54] solve it or address it, [00:28:56] it will occupy my mind the entire [00:28:58] time when this morning runs. So you're thinking time, [00:29:00] are you listening to music or [00:29:02] just occasionally I will listen to a [00:29:04] podcast or an audiobook, but [00:29:06] never music when I'm running, [00:29:08] it's always like I can. [00:29:10] If I'm listening to an audiobook or a [00:29:12] podcast while running, I can consume [00:29:14] digest.
And assimilate that [00:29:16] information much [00:29:18] more efficiently than [00:29:20] if I'm driving. Mm-hmm. Or if [00:29:22] I'm reading at night, I will soak [00:29:24] it in and then as soon as I [00:29:26] get back from that run, I have my next [00:29:28] clear action steps of how do [00:29:30] I apply. I. What I just [00:29:32] learned to today. [00:29:34]
Dave: There's studies of that, that [00:29:36] moving and exercising helps [00:29:38] you remember stuff.
That's why it's, I believe it. [00:29:40] Put kids in school and sit in your, a little plastic [00:29:42] chair and just try to learn like, man, [00:29:44] that's just speeding 'em down. [00:29:46] So, all right, so you're absorbing [00:29:48] information. [00:29:50] Um, and you're mostly just [00:29:52] contemplating. Interesting. All right. That, [00:29:54] that's good to know. So you're building time [00:29:56] in to solve problems, which is, [00:29:58] which is cool.
So you're doubling down [00:30:00] it. It's one of these, Tim Ferris is really good at [00:30:02] Yeah. Is, you know, how do you stacking habits, how [00:30:04] do you do it? Yeah. How do you stack habits? And [00:30:06] I, I like that too. [00:30:08] And, and it's like, all right, what are all the [00:30:10] things you can do? Like when I'm in the sauna. [00:30:12] I could meditate.
Sometimes I'll do [00:30:14] like breath training. [00:30:16] Um, but lately, like that's become my [00:30:18] thinking time. So you're sweaty and kind of [00:30:20] suffering, but. I'm like, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna [00:30:22] ask the really hard questions. And [00:30:24] I've been working with AI [00:30:26] lately, and I've had some of the most [00:30:28] profound breakthroughs on [00:30:30] understanding stuff that would've taken me months to do [00:30:32] just by sitting there and being [00:30:34] curious and asking a bunch of questions.[00:30:36]
So that's becoming my [00:30:38] thinking time or my meditation [00:30:40] time, but my, most of my meditation's in the ice [00:30:42] water. So I think [00:30:44] curiosity
Nick: is a [00:30:46] trait and a characteristic [00:30:48] of I. The most highly [00:30:50] successful people. Mm-hmm. You know, like we [00:30:52] are curious and then [00:30:54] we take action, we act [00:30:56] on and we have the courage to act [00:30:58] on those curiosities.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. [00:31:00]
Nick: And you would never [00:31:02] have started a business, you would've never have [00:31:04] engaged a conversation. You would never have built [00:31:06] something unless you acted [00:31:08] on that curiosity.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. [00:31:10]
Nick: And I don't think people give enough value to [00:31:12] curiosity. Yeah.
Dave: They always [00:31:14] say, you know, curiosity killed the cat. What [00:31:16] they don't say is that curiosity is [00:31:18] the most reliable way to [00:31:20] extinguish fear.
That's why it killed the [00:31:22] cat. But you know, [00:31:24] some, if you feel like something's trying to kill you and you [00:31:26] get curious, I wonder what that is, [00:31:28] then you can think about the thing that's trying to [00:31:30] kill you instead of just being in a state of [00:31:32] fear. Yeah. Right. And that's, [00:31:34] that's a, a huge thing. And curiosity [00:31:36] about pain.
Like, oh wow, I'm [00:31:38] freaking out. Like, actually, what [00:31:40] is that? And you realize it's not what you [00:31:42] thought it was. And I [00:31:44] feel like curiosity resolved [00:31:46] suffering. Like suffering is how you [00:31:48] handle pain.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Right? And [00:31:50] if you become curious about the pain, you stop [00:31:52] suffering and you're just experiencing it. [00:31:54] And you know, [00:31:56] Elon has said [00:31:58] that.
And being an [00:32:00] entrepreneur is like staring into the abyss and [00:32:02] eating glass. You see that quote? [00:32:04] Yeah. Yeah. And others [00:32:06] have said the biggest thing that [00:32:08] determines whether you're a good entrepreneur is your capacity for [00:32:10] suffering. Oh, I, I agree [00:32:12] with that. I do too. Yeah. Right. And [00:32:14] being an ultra endurance athlete and you know how to [00:32:16] handle suffering.
Right. I think it gives you [00:32:18] unique skills.[00:32:20] [00:32:22]
But I gotta ask like, is this [00:32:24] David Goggins the goal here,
Nick: or is [00:32:26] that insanity? I mean, for me, the goal [00:32:28] is suffering [00:32:30] with a reason. Okay. Like there has to [00:32:32] be meaning behind the suffering, [00:32:34] and it is like, what am I trying [00:32:36] to unlock?
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Nick: And I [00:32:38] think about life. Like there's all [00:32:40] these doors in rooms that [00:32:42] we can unlock, but you have [00:32:44] to.
Do something to [00:32:46] earn the key to unlock [00:32:48] that door. So of every [00:32:50] big effort I've ever done, [00:32:52] there's been an unlock during that [00:32:54] effort where I come out of it, [00:32:56] you know, the goal for me isn't [00:32:58] always to, in some races or [00:33:00] or efforts, there are, it's not a certain time [00:33:02] or it's a certain place, but [00:33:04] it's knowing that when I go into it, [00:33:06] when I finally start to suffer, [00:33:08] there's going to be an unlock [00:33:10] or an outcome that is [00:33:12] applicable to all parts of my life moving [00:33:14] forward.
I.
Speaker 4: Mm, [00:33:16]
Nick: so like these big [00:33:18] endurance efforts, these preps, these structured [00:33:20] workouts, the training, I love the training [00:33:22] because of what it [00:33:24] produces through the [00:33:26] process and on the back end. [00:33:28] There's reason, there's meaning, there's [00:33:30] purpose.
Dave: I wonder, you [00:33:32] ever done a vision quest? [00:33:34] No. So, I mean, ranger [00:33:36] school is just a, a really intense [00:33:38] version of that.
I, I would imagine ha not [00:33:40] having gone through it, uh, but [00:33:42] being dropped off [00:33:44] in, you know, in the desert [00:33:46] or in a forest somewhere and like, you're, you're, [00:33:48] here's a circle of 30 feet. You're [00:33:50] gonna stay in that for four days. You got [00:33:52] no food and you got some water every day and [00:33:54] you know, maybe not enough sleeping bag and you [00:33:56] just.
Sit there, got nothing to [00:33:58] do. Just contemplate. Just [00:34:00] think and have you done right something like [00:34:02] this before. Done something similar. I had a, a [00:34:04] shaman drop me off in a, in a cave in [00:34:06] Sedona with just water [00:34:08] for four days and no [00:34:10] people, no company, no tech, no [00:34:12] nothing. Just, you know, fire and water [00:34:14] and maybe salt.
And I wrote one of my [00:34:16] books about it, and I have a few friends [00:34:18] who've done it as well. And it, it's like a [00:34:20] different kind of pain. Like you get all the [00:34:22] discomfort, you get the hunger, uh, you [00:34:24] get the sun or cold or [00:34:26] whatever. And loneliness [00:34:28] is also a form of pain, right? Like, oh, I'm by [00:34:30] myself. And, um, [00:34:32] yeah, that, that was, that was [00:34:34] a meaningful transition for me too.[00:34:36]
And, and, uh, was [00:34:38] there an unlock coming outta that? [00:34:40] Any perspective. There was a bunch of [00:34:42] 'em. Yeah. One [00:34:44] was, I knew that I [00:34:46] knew I'd eat and I'd already [00:34:48] lost, you know, all the weight, but I knew that I'd eat [00:34:50] if I was lonely and [00:34:52] I still had some part of me that's like, if I don't [00:34:54] eat, you know, multiple meals a [00:34:56] day I'm gonna get hypo gly bitchy.[00:34:58]
So like, I'll, I'll be mean. [00:35:00] Right? And so [00:35:02] I'm like, I got no people. I got no food. [00:35:04] There's nothing to lose. So I came outta [00:35:06] that. Thinking I'd be [00:35:08] just weak and, you know, [00:35:10] depleted. I climbed the [00:35:12] wrong mountain to get picked up [00:35:14] afterwards and I had more energy [00:35:16] than I had in a long time. It felt amazing. [00:35:18] And I walked down, you know, found, found the [00:35:20] truck eventually, and I was just [00:35:22] on fire and it was like, well look [00:35:24] at the capacity that I didn't know I had in [00:35:26] there.
And, uh, that was one of the things that [00:35:28] led me into the intermittent fasting [00:35:30] world and writing my first big book was the, [00:35:32] the first big book about intermittent fasting. [00:35:34] It was a bulletproof diet. And, [00:35:36] um, did you, did you have something to keep time [00:35:38] when you were in there or were you unaware? [00:35:40] I was mostly unaware.
I had a [00:35:42] mobile phone and you'd turn it on when the [00:35:44] sun came up every morning [00:35:46] just to to text. I'm not [00:35:48] dead to the shaman. And she was [00:35:50] like, you really don't have to text me. I'm [00:35:52] watching you anyway. With remote shaman powers. [00:35:54] And but that was [00:35:56] like a safety check-in and other, and then it was turned [00:35:58] off after that.
So there was no, no timing [00:36:00] and it was kind of weird 'cause the first [00:36:02] night I was in a cave and I didn't want to be in that cave for [00:36:04] whatever reason. And the next [00:36:06] morning I turned on my phone and there's a text [00:36:08] message. She said Last night you were thinking [00:36:10] you wanted to go to the other cave, so I'm picking you up [00:36:12] in an hour to take you there.
And I'm like, [00:36:14] she read my mind. 'cause I did not tell [00:36:16] her and I had not talk to her. [00:36:18] She knew. I was like, okay, there's [00:36:20] some, some, you know, spiritual stuff going on [00:36:22] here. And yeah, it was actually [00:36:24] a, a big breakthrough. And there's other ones too, [00:36:26] where I had a young baby at the [00:36:28] time. My daughter was almost one, [00:36:30] and it was some weird stuff, you know, [00:36:32] my, mother mother from my wife at [00:36:34] the time was, was like.[00:36:36]
As I'm there, she's like, I don't want you to go. [00:36:38] And if you go, there's gonna be [00:36:40] consequences. And I'm like, if I don't go, there's gonna [00:36:42] be consequences. And [00:36:44] it was really weird, like there was, there was [00:36:46] stuff happening. 'cause that's not how she talks. [00:36:48] That's that's not who she is. But it was, it was like [00:36:50] you pushed some old buttons for both of us.[00:36:52]
So there was, yeah, there was, [00:36:54] uh, there was an upleveling that [00:36:56] happened from that for sure. And [00:36:58] so it's, it's one of the [00:37:00] practices, right. And. [00:37:02] I've done sweat lodges, I've done, [00:37:04] you know, a week of shamanic training where you know, [00:37:06] you're just doing the craziest stuff and every [00:37:08] time there's an upleveling, you could [00:37:10] do it with psychedelics, you do it with breath work [00:37:12] and for me, I'll do [00:37:14] those things.
And it sounds like you're using ultra [00:37:16] endurance to have similar like [00:37:18] uplevel progressions [00:37:20] and neither way is the right way at [00:37:22] all. I just, I wanna know the whole menu of [00:37:24] options. 'cause I'm probably not the a hundred mile running [00:37:26] guy. 'cause I would have to have another knee surgery if I did [00:37:28] that.
Nick: Right.
It's very [00:37:30] interesting 'cause I've never considered. [00:37:32] Other options to [00:37:34] experience the outcome that I get from some of these [00:37:36] endurance efforts. Yeah, let's, let's hang [00:37:38] out. I,
Dave: I think there's multiple [00:37:40] paths and, uh, uh, check out heavily [00:37:42] meditated and, and the [00:37:44] goal of that book is you, you read it, be like that [00:37:46] one, like it's intuitive.
Like that one sounds [00:37:48] really interesting. Like, let's, let's, [00:37:50] let's look at that. Right. And that [00:37:52] way you still do your al Ultra endurance, right? [00:37:54] Like that's, that's, you love it. It's what you do. [00:37:56] And you end up being able to [00:37:58] mix the ingredients of your altered [00:38:00] state's work. 'cause I think you're, you're doing [00:38:02] ultra
Nick: marathons for altered states work [00:38:04] if you have a menu of options.
Do you have [00:38:06] one for yourself personally though that is [00:38:08] tried and true, it is [00:38:10] one that you get the most return [00:38:12] from with incremental [00:38:14] benefit. Yeah, I do.
Dave: [00:38:16] Um, I. [00:38:18] When I hook a computer up to my head to do [00:38:20] advanced like forgiveness [00:38:22] work, where instead of just meditating, I got a [00:38:24] computer telling me that I'm not meditating [00:38:26] perfectly.
It'd be kinda like if you were on a run [00:38:28] and you had something in your shoes [00:38:30] and anytime your gait wasn't perfect [00:38:32] in every way, it would, it would tell [00:38:34] you. So eventually your gait would become [00:38:36] more and more perfect. I do that [00:38:38] for meditation. So that's what [00:38:40] my, my 40 years of Zen Company in Seattle [00:38:42] does.
So for me, if I can go and spend a few [00:38:44] days hooked up doing these really [00:38:46] deep states, that's [00:38:48] magical. And we [00:38:50] have ketamine as an option there, and [00:38:52] ketamine is the other way. Uh, for me, that's very [00:38:54] powerful. I don't take it like [00:38:56] regularly. People get addicted. The whole [00:38:58] recreational thing is not a good move.
But [00:39:00] doing it for like [00:39:02] spiritual progression work, I've had really [00:39:04] powerful breakthroughs from that. And [00:39:06] for me, I go to Burning Man, [00:39:08] stay up all night dancing for a week. That's altered [00:39:10] Endurance. Yeah. And altered [00:39:12] space for sure.
Nick: Um, I'm [00:39:14] curious, you know, you were previously talking about the, [00:39:16] like turning off between the [00:39:18] sympathetic and the [00:39:20] parasympathetic.
Mm-hmm. And that's something that I found [00:39:22] after these big endurance [00:39:24] races, like these a hundred mile races. Yeah. How
Dave: do you do [00:39:26] that?
Nick: Well, you would think that, [00:39:28] you know, you finish a hundred miles. [00:39:30] I remember my first a hundred mile [00:39:32] race ever was the LED to 100 out in [00:39:34] the Rocky Mountains of Colorado. Wow.
[00:39:36] High altitude. Also. High altitude. [00:39:38] It starts at 10,000 feet. You [00:39:40] reach like [00:39:42] 13 five at its peak. [00:39:44] And it was [00:39:46] brutal. I mean, it was extremely humbling [00:39:48] and you're exhausted [00:39:50] afterwards. And I, I finished, I believe, just [00:39:52] under 28 hours. Wow. [00:39:54] And you would think that [00:39:56] as soon as you got back to your bed [00:39:58] that day.
You'd fall asleep, [00:40:00] but I couldn't sleep for [00:40:02] three days afterwards. Yeah. My [00:40:04] body could not rest and recover and get [00:40:06] into that appropriate state. [00:40:08] So like taking what I [00:40:10] experienced from that and [00:40:12] that being one type of [00:40:14] stressor and then making [00:40:16] it more applicable to other people's lives [00:40:18] in general. How do you switch [00:40:20] from sympathetic to [00:40:22] parasympathetic and back to [00:40:24] deregulate
Speaker 4: mm-hmm.
Nick: [00:40:26] And come to a rested state after [00:40:28] this heightened sense of awareness, whether that [00:40:30] be trauma mm-hmm. [00:40:32] Or stress in a business or physical activity. [00:40:34]
Dave: This is such a [00:40:36] cool conversation. I, I'm loving [00:40:38] this. For me, the way I [00:40:40] first learned, I, I didn't know this as a young [00:40:42] entrepreneur. I was always in fight or flight in [00:40:44] business, and actually my personal life [00:40:46] too all sympathetic, [00:40:48] you can get a device [00:40:50] called the, the HeartMath [00:40:52] feedback sensor.
Eclipse [00:40:54] on your ear, and the [00:40:56] guy who does the more research side [00:40:58] of that business is speaking at the Biohacking [00:41:00] conference this year. Um, Roland [00:41:02] McCrady, who's been on the show, maybe check out [00:41:04] those episodes. Yeah. But [00:41:06] you can you get your morning [00:41:08] readiness score from your Garmin or from [00:41:10] whatever you got that's based on heart [00:41:12] rate variability as.[00:41:14]
How, how is my heart [00:41:16] rate spaced out through the night? [00:41:18] And that says how recovered or [00:41:20] parasympathetic, or how stressed and [00:41:22] sympathetic you are. Well, [00:41:24] if you have real time feedback on [00:41:26] that, you can learn how to, when [00:41:28] you take one breath to [00:41:30] change your state [00:41:32] consciously and took about [00:41:34] six weeks. For me to [00:41:36] learn how to do this, and I'm like, wait, [00:41:38] all day long, my body's just going sympathetic [00:41:40] without my permission.
And then I was like, [00:41:42] goddammit. And you like play whack-a-mole with it [00:41:44] and then put it back in [00:41:46] parasympathetic. And [00:41:48] I still have that ability to this day, like before I go on [00:41:50] stage, I just put myself [00:41:52] in parasympathetic, so I'm chill. I've [00:41:54] walked out on Tony Robbins stage, the [00:41:56] microphone screws up and I have zero [00:41:58] stress.
Zero. How do you do [00:42:00] that? I learned using the HeartMath, [00:42:02] right, and I've, I do some other, you know, the, I've [00:42:04] done a lot of esoteric [00:42:06] lineage work, but [00:42:08] between neurofeedback and just that [00:42:10] ability to, to do it, when [00:42:12] you're, when you're doing this little thing, [00:42:14] you put the clip on your ear, you look at your phone, it [00:42:16] says, breathe in, breathe out.
Like we can all do [00:42:18] that, but you gotta make the light turn [00:42:20] green when you breathe in and breathe out and make the [00:42:22] light turn green. It's really [00:42:24] hard to figure it out. But there's a little switch [00:42:26] inside your body that is unlabeled and [00:42:28] invisible. And you start, [00:42:30] well, that time it turned [00:42:32] green and that time it turned red.[00:42:34]
And this time it's gonna stay green for two [00:42:36] breaths. And you, you suddenly realize [00:42:38] there's something going on in there that [00:42:40] would, it's meant to be invisible, but it [00:42:42] becomes visible. And once you have it, you have [00:42:44] it. So what I do [00:42:46] is I would learn how to do that before [00:42:48] the race so that you [00:42:50] have the switch and afterwards you do the [00:42:52] switch.
And then you're also [00:42:54] just stuck in sympathetic. So you need to [00:42:56] take the things like [00:42:58] adaptogens, like ashwagandha, [00:43:00] rhodiola, uh, [00:43:02] probably tyrosine's gonna help your body [00:43:04] regulate. And a ton of [00:43:06] gaba might try some kava. [00:43:08] And then I would actually get [00:43:10] on one of those. Uh, [00:43:12] definitely do some cold bath, some cold [00:43:14] ice baths 'cause that'll help.
[00:43:16] But then I look at that whole bit of [00:43:18] vibration stuff. Like get on one of [00:43:20] those, those sound lounging lounger [00:43:22] things that will drop you into [00:43:24] parasympathetic, right? Put on the light sound [00:43:26] goggles that are blinking, right? [00:43:28] You can do vagus nerve simulation. [00:43:30] Um, there's a new company called Zen Budd [00:43:32] that does an ultrasound, [00:43:34] looks a little headset you put in your ear, [00:43:36] and [00:43:38] it turns on your vagus nerve, [00:43:40] which is where sympathetic and [00:43:42] parasympathetic reside, [00:43:44] right?
So like all these things are [00:43:46] available, but. Who talks about [00:43:48] them in the context of athletics, but they're [00:43:50] so powerful for recovery. And [00:43:52] if you were to come into upgrade labs [00:43:54] afterwards, I'll throw you on this, [00:43:56] this, uh, it's not just a [00:43:58] light bed. It does a lot more than just, [00:44:00] just red and infrared light. [00:44:02] And we, about half the tech, there is [00:44:04] recovery tech.
Actually 70% of [00:44:06] it's recovery tech people come in, we [00:44:08] stimulate 'em real quickly, and then we make 'em recover [00:44:10] faster so that they lose weight faster, put [00:44:12] on muscle faster.
Speaker 4: Hmm.
Dave: So I do a whole [00:44:14] cycle through there [00:44:16] and. Like it's, it's so [00:44:18] much easier to recover than you think. [00:44:20] It's just you gotta have the [00:44:22] right framework.
Uh, [00:44:24] for food, the substrates, [00:44:26] minerals, protein, like I [00:44:28] had surgery about [00:44:30] a couple months ago. They took [00:44:32] about like the passport [00:44:34] cover from each side of my face because I used to be able to grab [00:44:36] a handful of skin just 'cause I was obese. [00:44:38] Five, 6% body fat Now. [00:44:40] And I decided, you know, [00:44:42] I don't recognize myself 'cause I just don't [00:44:44] like having, you know, a lot of extra [00:44:46] skin.
And I recovered crazy fast. [00:44:48] Three pounds of ribeye a day during [00:44:50] the recovery. 'cause the body needs the protein. [00:44:52] So you probably gotta eat more than you [00:44:54] want. And you already know [00:44:56] you gotta have enough calories when you do it. But [00:44:58] it's like, how much protein, how are [00:45:00] you gonna absorb that much protein? You take [00:45:02] enzymes.
So there's, I think there's a [00:45:04] path there. Yeah. You know about baking [00:45:06] soda, you take that when you run.
Nick: No, [00:45:08] but I know of, um, like the [00:45:10] pri the properties of like bicarbonate and [00:45:12] Yeah. Extremely. [00:45:14] Popular in the endurance space right now. [00:45:16] Do you microdose when you run? No. [00:45:18]
Dave: Have you ever talked to someone who does?
[00:45:20] No. So [00:45:22] an an old ultra endurance [00:45:24] friend, he said, Dave, it's a, an open [00:45:26] secret. He said A lot of people are taking [00:45:28] LSD micro doses for a hundred mile runs [00:45:30] and a micro dose. You don't feel [00:45:32] it, you're not high at all. It just [00:45:34] does something to, [00:45:36] to make the run different. [00:45:38] Um, and James Fat is [00:45:40] the guy who invented that.
In [00:45:42] Austin, they'll say it's a microdose, [00:45:44] but it, it's just like a party dose [00:45:46] you if you can feel it. So this is about [00:45:48] neuroplasticity and like really [00:45:50] invisible things. Hmm. That's another thing [00:45:52] that I think if I was gonna do an ultra [00:45:54] endurance, aside from having to get a [00:45:56] new knee, I would probably [00:45:58] be doing
Nick: Yeah.
I'm, I'm curious [00:46:00] the, um, the problems that [00:46:02] constantly being in a [00:46:04] sympathetic fight or flight state. [00:46:06] Calls for so many [00:46:08] people and not being able to, to transition into [00:46:10] that parasympathetic. [00:46:12] Mm-hmm. And I think from my [00:46:14] perspective, a [00:46:16] lot of it outside of just like the actual [00:46:18] physical, it's a lack [00:46:20] of having vision [00:46:22] into where you're heading, [00:46:24] knowing how to make decisions [00:46:26] that are actually going to help you get to where you [00:46:28] want to be based off that vision.
[00:46:30] And it's being overwhelmed by. [00:46:32] Decision fatigue. Mm-hmm. [00:46:34] And options and [00:46:36] opportunities and their stress that comes with [00:46:38] that. Not being able to, to [00:46:40] set and create boundaries. [00:46:42] Correct. And just main [00:46:44] maintaining that [00:46:46] sympathetic state you just [00:46:48] wears and tears
Dave: on you. You, you know what, [00:46:50] what I'll do it reliably is [00:46:52] feeling helpless.
[00:46:54] That's makes, even in mice, it [00:46:56] makes you feel [00:46:58] sympathetic activated. And if [00:47:00] there's one thing you learn with, go one [00:47:02] more is that you're not helpless. Like [00:47:04] there's always something you can do. And, and that's [00:47:06] going to make a huge difference for like, [00:47:08] that I've got this energy.
Nick: [00:47:10] Hey, you're, you're one decision [00:47:12] away from changing the [00:47:14] course and trajectory of your life.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Nick: I [00:47:16] truly do believe that. Yeah. And that's. [00:47:18] You know, that's what a lot of the book is [00:47:20] about. It's like that one day where I [00:47:22] found it going more on that training run in Austin, [00:47:24] Texas. Mm-hmm. That was [00:47:26] one decision. [00:47:28] The decision to turn around and go back to the [00:47:30] trail, that one decision [00:47:32] changed, [00:47:34] transformed my entire life.
[00:47:36] Mm-hmm. And that's what I wanna share [00:47:38] with so many people is your life [00:47:40] is one decision away [00:47:42] from. Going in a [00:47:44] different direction. It's actually [00:47:46] achieving and succeeding, but you have [00:47:48] to have the responsibility to actually [00:47:50] make that decision. I. That's where that [00:47:52] curiosity comes from. That's a, that's the courage.
That's [00:47:54] the consistency. That's the [00:47:56] commitment. Okay. There's power there. [00:47:58]
Dave: I there is power there. [00:48:00] And Nick, this, this has been a [00:48:02] fascinating conversation [00:48:04] and, uh, I love getting to learn from you and, [00:48:06] and look at your mindset on, [00:48:08] on recovery. And I'm pushing yourself and [00:48:10] Yeah, I've, I've enjoyed the hell out of [00:48:12] this.
I appreciate that. Yeah. After [00:48:14] the conference come on [00:48:16] over and we'll, we'll do some breath work [00:48:18] and, uh, see if. Like, see if there's [00:48:20] a, a parallel to some of the stuff [00:48:22] you're doing. Not at all encouraging you to stop doing [00:48:24] what you're doing, saying what are [00:48:26] all the paths to get to where you want to go the [00:48:28] fastest.
'cause that,
Nick: that could be a lot of fun. Yeah. Because it's [00:48:30] an outcome that I'm trying to
Speaker 4: [00:48:32] Yeah.
Nick: Achieve. Right. And I'm sure I'll [00:48:34] be humbled by many of the [00:48:36] other practices that you [00:48:38] incorporate. And you've tried and [00:48:40] tested and curious,
Dave: some of 'em are really scary, right? [00:48:42] Yeah, yeah. And, uh, yeah. [00:48:44] Facing, facing your demons.
I, I know you know [00:48:46] how to do that. 'cause you made it through ranger school and [00:48:48] all that, and a lot of people never have a [00:48:50] chance to do that. Yeah. Never gotten a fight in high [00:48:52] school. They just never pushed [00:48:54] themselves. And you're teaching a whole [00:48:56] generation of people to push in a, in a way [00:48:58] that's, that's incredibly [00:49:00] valuable.
Uh. Especially just [00:49:02] for being a man. Like you gotta know that you have it [00:49:04] right and you know that you have it and you're teaching [00:49:06] people to know that they have it. Yeah. [00:49:08] Um, and that's, that's epic. [00:49:10] So thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks for having [00:49:12] me. You got it guys. The book is, [00:49:14] go one more and [00:49:16] check it out.
See you next time [00:49:18] on the Human [00:49:20] Upgrade [00:49:22] podcast.