Ben: [00:00:00] Steak and Shake who are saying, Hey, we're [00:00:02] frying our french fries and beef towel, which [00:00:04] is a good fat. But when I did some research [00:00:06] on steak and shake, they pref [00:00:08] fry their french fries and canola and soybean [00:00:10] before it's in beef tall.
Dave: I have [00:00:12] not in 18 years eaten a [00:00:14] seed oil, at least not on purpose. I've been [00:00:16] on national news getting criticized for [00:00:18] saying I would smoke a cigarette before I would eat a [00:00:20] plate of french fries.
If I could eat a plate of [00:00:22] fries or smoke a cigarette, I'll take the [00:00:24] cigarette.
Ben: If you've never smoked a tobacco [00:00:26] cigarette before, but you've eaten [00:00:28] 10,000 french fries, you've essentially [00:00:30] smoked 20 or 10,000 [00:00:32] tobacco cigarettes because of the aldehyde content.
Host: [00:00:34] Today we're joined by Bedi, a [00:00:36] bestselling author and health coach who's best [00:00:38] known for his work with keto fasting and [00:00:40] helping people reset their metabolism.[00:00:42]
Ben: We know these CI oils, they're highly [00:00:44] unstable because of the chemical nature of [00:00:46] them. They're called polyunsaturated fatty [00:00:48] acids. If the word poly means many, they [00:00:50] contain many double bonds. What's [00:00:52] your take on avocado? [00:00:54]
Dave: You your listening to the [00:00:56] Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.[00:00:58] [00:01:00]
Ben New [00:01:02] York Times [00:01:04] bestseller. First time this [00:01:06] week as we're recording this. [00:01:08] Congratulations.
Ben: Thank you, Dave. You have led the [00:01:10] way, my friend. It's uh, it's super cool. [00:01:12] I'm, I'm very grateful.
Dave: Wow. I, I [00:01:14] know much work it is and how exciting [00:01:16] it is and, and well [00:01:18] deserved. This is a fantastic [00:01:20] book that you've written.
Ben: Thank you.
Dave: [00:01:22] And I wanna know, [00:01:24] given the research you've done, I [00:01:26] think we might agree on some things, but I'm not [00:01:28] sure why are [00:01:30] 93% of Americans [00:01:32] metabolically unhealthy?
Ben: It's a crazy stat, [00:01:34] isn't it?
Dave: It went up from like 88% [00:01:36] when I, it,
Ben: from my stock. It did 88% in [00:01:38] 2018 to 93% in [00:01:40] 2022. So it's going in the wrong [00:01:42] direction.
So why, uh, many [00:01:44] reasons why of course, I would say [00:01:46] it starts with being a sugar burner. [00:01:48] When your metabolism is locked in, [00:01:50] only burning sugar and glucose, [00:01:52] of course there's going to be high levels of [00:01:54] insulin. And we know you talk a lot about [00:01:56] insulin. Insulin is an energy sensor. [00:01:58] It's this hormone that when it's [00:02:00] elevated signals growth, [00:02:02] and these 93% of Americans that I [00:02:04] call, they're in a keto deficiency, they're in a [00:02:06] fat burning deficiency.
They [00:02:08] forgot how to burn stored body fat. [00:02:10] So when we're locked into burning [00:02:12] glucose, it ages us faster. We [00:02:14] start duplicating cells faster, we [00:02:16] reach senescent cells much [00:02:18] quicker. And what's crazy, Dave, when I was [00:02:20] doing the research on insulin and insulin [00:02:22] resistance, mm-hmm. There's a study called the [00:02:24] White Halt two Study, ah, [00:02:26] which shows that the average person that [00:02:28] has insulin resistance can have it for [00:02:30] six to 14 years [00:02:32] without their blood sugars changing [00:02:34] at all.
They're fasting glucose and [00:02:36] even their A1C, which is [00:02:38] insane. So we know that when your levels of [00:02:40] insulin are elevated, it lowers [00:02:42] nitric oxide, creates vasoconstriction, and then [00:02:44] it triggers a cascade of metabolic [00:02:46] disease. So I would say high insulin [00:02:48] levels is probably the major cause and the [00:02:50] most common cause
Dave: E something really important, [00:02:52] even if you have one of these, you know, the [00:02:54] continuous glucose monitors, [00:02:56] it doesn't mean.
[00:02:58] Anything about your insulin levels, right? [00:03:00] 'cause your insulin can be high and your glucose can be [00:03:02] normal, or your glucose can be [00:03:04] high and your insulin can be low. Right. [00:03:06] And insulin does more damage than glucose. But [00:03:08] glucose causes its own damage. Yeah. [00:03:10] What is the over insulin [00:03:12] damage versus over glucose damage?
Ben: [00:03:14] Well, what's interesting with insulin when they're testing [00:03:16] it, first of all, most doctors are not testing [00:03:18] it. Conventional doctors. Yep. Because there's not a [00:03:20] medication for high insulin. There's only a [00:03:22] medication for high glucose. So why should we [00:03:24] test it? Shocking. Shocking. [00:03:26] And even if you do test it well, the [00:03:28] good news is this, it's a cheap test.
You [00:03:30] could pay out of pocket. It's like 30 or [00:03:32] $50, but the reference range will [00:03:34] be three to 28 on that [00:03:36] insulin. Fasting insulin is a blood test. It's a blood test. [00:03:38] Yes. But if you're over [00:03:40] six, to me, that's a problem. If your [00:03:42] fasting insulin is consistently over six, [00:03:44] let's say it's 11 or 12 or 21, [00:03:46] it might not be flagged as being a [00:03:48] problem, but that's insulin resistance.
And as it [00:03:50] progresses, what's gonna happen is [00:03:52] first, high blood pressure is one of the most common [00:03:54] things, and that's because we're stripping nitric [00:03:56] oxide. As you know, it's a very important [00:03:58] gaseous molecule that creates [00:04:00] vasodilation, the opening of our [00:04:02] blood vessels to allow nutrients and [00:04:04] oxygen and blood flow, blood flow to [00:04:06] look, deliver to tissues.
When you [00:04:08] have elevated levels of insulin, [00:04:10] it constricts those blood vessels, [00:04:12] which makes your heart pump harder, which [00:04:14] is what Dave, high blood pressure. It's not the [00:04:16] sugar. I mean, excuse me. It's not the salt, it's the [00:04:18] sugar. It's the insulin levels. Thank you. [00:04:20]
Dave: This drives me crazy. [00:04:22] High insulin [00:04:24] causes high blood pressure, and they blame [00:04:26] salt.
But what happens when people get [00:04:28] way more sodium who are insulin [00:04:30] resistant,
Ben: it actually helps them. Exactly. It helps them, [00:04:32] prevents them from overeating, helps [00:04:34] them feel satisfied, regulates their [00:04:36] potassium and sodium levels. It can even
Dave: lower [00:04:38] insulin over
Ben: it could even over lower insulin. [00:04:40] Yeah.
Dave: So I have to [00:04:42] say, I've been on [00:04:44] about six grams of sodium per [00:04:46] day for 20 years because [00:04:48] the first talk I ever gave in [00:04:50] public about health was [00:04:52] about how sodium was [00:04:54] actually good for you.
Of course. [00:04:56] And I was highly [00:04:58] influenced by Gary Tobbs. Yeah. Who we both [00:05:00] know. In fact, Gary. Who [00:05:02] wrote a couple of fantastic books in the [00:05:04] keto world, he helped me get my first [00:05:06] book deal. So kudos. Gary, if you're [00:05:08] listening.
Ben: Yeah. We love you, Gary.
Dave: Yeah. [00:05:10] And he gave, he wrote something, I think of [00:05:12] The Atlantic, about sodium and [00:05:14] the connection there.
If [00:05:16] you're wanting to fix your [00:05:18] insulin, you're going to have to read Metabolic Freedom, [00:05:20] which has Ben's new book. You're going to, of [00:05:22] course, cut your carbs, but adding some extra [00:05:24] salt to your rib eye would be a [00:05:26] really important step. It would be [00:05:28] what other minerals are gonna help people with their [00:05:30] insulin?
Ben: Well, I love fulvic and humic [00:05:32] acid, just because, you know, it's such a powerhouse for [00:05:34] the, for the mitochondria, it's
Dave: like there's some [00:05:36] kind of coffee that contains those. Ah, yeah. [00:05:38] Can you think of which one that is?
Ben: Danger [00:05:40] coffee.
Dave: Who knows what you might
Ben: [00:05:42] legit. So yeah, [00:05:44] putting fulvic and IC in your coffee is a [00:05:46] game changer because as you know, when you drink coffee, you lose some [00:05:48] electrolytes and minerals.
Yeah. So, brilliant [00:05:50] marketing, brilliant idea to put that in your [00:05:52] actual coffee. Oh, so I love that. I, you know [00:05:54] what's interesting about the salt Dave? [00:05:56] I actually have salt sensitivity. [00:05:58] So even though I knew Yes. Oh, you're in the [00:06:00] 5%. I am in, the 5% was, [00:06:02] I know. Oh shit. Thank you [00:06:04] mom and dad, what do
Dave: you do? Okay, so [00:06:06] let's explain this.
Yeah. About [00:06:08] 5% of high blood pressure people are [00:06:10] actually sodium sensitive. Yeah. For everyone else, you [00:06:12] just need more salt and more potassium, [00:06:14] but if you're in that 5%, [00:06:16] it's gonna raise your blood pressure much [00:06:18] more.
Ben: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Yeah. And [00:06:20] for normal people, no offense, [00:06:22] the amount [00:06:24] that salt could raise your blood pressure is within [00:06:26] the error margin of a blood pressure cuff.
Like it [00:06:28] is nonsense. But for you, [00:06:30] you're gonna get like 20 points or something for [00:06:32] too much sodium. So how do you handle that?
Ben: And I've seen [00:06:34] that too, and I, I noticed when I have too much salt, [00:06:36] like for dinner, my resting heart rate [00:06:38] overnight is, it's up like five or 10 points [00:06:40] as well. Wow. So I balance that out [00:06:42] with potassium.
I'll take potassium [00:06:44] with the sodium and I'll find [00:06:46] electrolytes that don't have a huge sodium to [00:06:48] potassium ratio. Right. I can even balance. [00:06:50] And when I go to restaurants, I'm not telling them to [00:06:52] salt my steaks. I'm telling them to actually go moderate [00:06:54] on the salt because I have that [00:06:56] sensitivity. But I'm rare, so there's some [00:06:58] workarounds, but I always take potassium.
I carry it [00:07:00] with me all the time.
Dave: What's your favorite form of [00:07:02] potassium? I. Um,
Ben: I use the one from [00:07:04] Designs for Health. They have some capsules that I [00:07:06] take with me. I forgot the form of it. Was it citrate? Probably. [00:07:08] Probably citrate and it has K two I think [00:07:10] with it as well.
Dave: One of the things that, [00:07:12] that drives me nuts with potassium, number one, [00:07:14] most people are deficient in it.
[00:07:16] Number two is you [00:07:18] have to have potassium and [00:07:20] magnesium for each of them to work. And if you're [00:07:22] deficient in potassium, you take [00:07:24] magnesium until you fill your pants, you're still not [00:07:26] gonna make full use of it. [00:07:28] But potassium [00:07:30] matches sodium so well, and we put salt, [00:07:32] even sea salt on everything and it doesn't have enough [00:07:34] potassium.
Host: Yeah.
Dave: So I [00:07:36] take about four grams, but I use [00:07:38] potassium bicarbonate [00:07:40] because bicarbonate, just like [00:07:42] sodium bicarb or baking soda, is [00:07:44] associated with extending human [00:07:46] lifespan.
Ben: Hmm.
Dave: So you might wanna add some bicarb in [00:07:48] there.
Ben: I'm sold. I will. Okay.
Dave: In [00:07:50] Metabolic Freedom, your new New York [00:07:52] Times bestselling book.
Let's go. Dave, [00:07:54] do you talk about [00:07:56] things like uric acid [00:07:58] versus acid alkaline [00:08:00] and things like that? Like how deep on that [00:08:02] side of metabolism. Are people [00:08:04] gonna learn in your book?
Ben: I do discuss uric acid. I [00:08:06] I referenced a lot of, uh, your friend David [00:08:08] Perlmutter's work and Richard Johnson's work. [00:08:10] Yeah. Great guys.
And, and the role of, um, [00:08:12] fructose, excess fructose and frank [00:08:14] fructose corn syrup on uric acid levels. [00:08:16] And how, how we should be testing that. You know [00:08:18] what's interesting? A couple years ago [00:08:20] they, they banned these, uh, at [00:08:22] home uric acid meters, uh, uric [00:08:24] acid test. They ban those. Seriously? Yeah, they, they, uh, the test
Dave: [00:08:26] strips or the meters,
Ben: the, the meters and the test [00:08:28] strips, who bans
Dave: them?
Ben: I, I forget who did [00:08:30] it, but it was not available. It might have gone. [00:08:32] Back to being available, but two years ago they [00:08:34] stopped allowing you to purchase it. There was a [00:08:36] product called UA shirt. Yeah,
Dave: I used to have [00:08:38] that. Me too. In me. I have it in a closet somewhere probably. Yeah, [00:08:40] me too.
Ben: And they, they, they stopped allowing you to [00:08:42] purchase it.
Now I think that might've changed. I don't know. [00:08:44] But I remember two years they took it off the market. Well
Dave: [00:08:46] they did increase the size of the [00:08:48] FDA by 38% 'cause the [00:08:50] DMV wasn't hiring enough. So they put those [00:08:52] guys at the FDA. But I'm pretty sure [00:08:54] that Bobby Kennedy cleaned out the [00:08:56] bureaucratic side because just look, if [00:08:58] you're in regulatory or you're in government or [00:09:00] whatever else, stop [00:09:02] preventing me from having my own data.
Mm. Like that [00:09:04] is an actual act of [00:09:06] sovereignty that you are interfering with. And if you [00:09:08] take my data, I get to take your [00:09:10] data. This is a tit for tat world. [00:09:12] Don't fuck with biohackers. [00:09:14] Sorry. Let's
Ben: go. I'm with you [00:09:16] a hundred percent. It's like that's such a [00:09:18] valuable tool to know your uric acid levels, which are [00:09:20] transient.
Like blood glucose or [00:09:22] fasting glucose, you're not looking at one reading. [00:09:24] Mm-hmm. You're looking at trends and overall we wanna see that under [00:09:26] six. Okay. Uh, and we know that [00:09:28] when it's elevated, it's gonna lead to gout, it's [00:09:30] going to lead to, um, your metabolism's [00:09:32] going to be blocked to put it [00:09:34] lightly, but the number one cause [00:09:36] that drives up uric acid is, is [00:09:38] fructose.
Mm-hmm. Specifically high [00:09:40] fructose corn syrup, nasty stuff, which [00:09:42] is nasty. It's, it's the mitochondrial [00:09:44] poison, but also juicing a lot of [00:09:46] fruit is gonna be a [00:09:48] concentrated dose of fructose, which we know the liver [00:09:50] metabolizes of 90% of [00:09:52] fructose. Uh, and you're gonna notice that when [00:09:54] I asked Dr. Promart, what are your, what are the [00:09:56] top five mm reasons why uric [00:09:58] acid is elevated?
He said, number one, [00:10:00] fructose, number two, [00:10:02] fructose number three, fructose, [00:10:04] number four alcohol and number five, [00:10:06] high purine foods. Exactly. Yep. Yeah. [00:10:08]
Dave: Now this will, this is a [00:10:10] little bit embarrassing but I gave myself [00:10:12] gout,
Ben: how
Dave: it [00:10:14] took me three days. What did you do? [00:10:16] So [00:10:18] I've, I [00:10:20] was experimenting with a supplement called ene.[00:10:22]
Have you heard of it? [00:10:24] No. It's a, it's an unusual supplement, [00:10:26] and I was looking to tweak my [00:10:28] sleep a little bit, so I added inosine [00:10:30] for some a TP [00:10:32] mechanics, let's say. And I take [00:10:34] a normal amount of [00:10:36] like my organ formula, so one ounce of organs a [00:10:38] day. That's all the purines I get. Right. And I [00:10:40] don't eat fructose and meaningful [00:10:42] amounts.
I might have an occasional piece of fruit, but [00:10:44] same, I'm, I'm not a, not a [00:10:46] alcohol guy, not a hyper [00:10:48] ose grown syrup guy. And I started taking [00:10:50] inosine within three days. [00:10:52] I'm like, why do I have this weird [00:10:54] pain in my joints and my right knee [00:10:56] swelled up in a way? I'm like, oh my [00:10:58] God, that was me when I was obese.[00:11:00]
Ben: Hmm.
Dave: And it's a very different pain [00:11:02] than an oxalate pain, which my oxalate [00:11:04] metabolism is trashed as well. So I manage [00:11:06] all that stuff and I'm, I don't have any pain in my body. I [00:11:08] can do full squats. Like everything. It, it works [00:11:10] so good. As long as I know [00:11:12] what I'm doing and I'm going, [00:11:14] God, I remember this [00:11:16] and thank God I'm a bio [00:11:18] hacker to another day to figure [00:11:20] out what was going on.
And then [00:11:22] I reversed it. Took about a week and a [00:11:24] half to get rid of it, but man, I, [00:11:26] for, I guess I forgot what gout feels like. Shit. That [00:11:28] was nasty. Wow. What a good reminder though. [00:11:30] I, I can't imagine [00:11:32] that I was living with that [00:11:34] in my, like when I was 20 years old. How [00:11:36] many young people do you think today have gout [00:11:38] and don't even know it?
They just think they hurt?
Ben: [00:11:40] I don't know. Do you know the percentage? I don't. [00:11:42] Yeah, I, I know that, you know what's interesting? 'cause [00:11:44] I, we have similar stories. I used to be [00:11:46] obese. Yeah. As a young 20-year-old as well. Mm-hmm. [00:11:48] Never had gout, but I had erectile [00:11:50] dysfunction. High blood pressure, blood sugar [00:11:52] imbalances.
And I never [00:11:54] want to go back. Just like you never want to go back. So [00:11:56] what an important reminder that you [00:11:58] never will go back to that way that you were [00:12:00] living your life. Even. I, I, you know, I was looking [00:12:02] at photos of you, Dave, like in 20, [00:12:04] I think, uh, Isabella Wentz had posted some [00:12:06] photos supporting your book.
Uh, I've [00:12:08] shifted a lot. Yeah, you've looked completely [00:12:10] different. Like, you look so much healthier. You're so [00:12:12] much, you're completely aging in the, in the [00:12:14] right direction, the opposite direction. It's just [00:12:16] incredible to see.
Dave: I, I appreciate [00:12:18] it. It, it makes me [00:12:20] kinda laugh because, I [00:12:22] mean, I'm on the cover of my book and [00:12:24] I'm, we're gonna do, we're gonna do an interview about my [00:12:26] book, but I'm just gonna show this off for a second here.[00:12:28]
So, great photo. I did not [00:12:30] take diuretics. I got off an airplane [00:12:32] and shot this, and I'm about [00:12:34] 5% body fat according to the medical [00:12:36] grade stuff that I use regularly. [00:12:38] And. People still like, you are [00:12:40] not five or 6% body fat. You're [00:12:42] 12. And I'm like, [00:12:44] okay. You realize there's a small amount of [00:12:46] health trolls out there, and no matter [00:12:48] what you do, they're gonna be [00:12:50] like that.
Lane Norton guy. Yeah. He, they're [00:12:52] just angry. Right?
Ben: He's [00:12:54] gone after me several times. Do you, do you think
Dave: [00:12:56] that he has erectile dysfunction? [00:12:58] I, because the metabolism things? [00:13:00] 'cause I'm getting a sense that he might,
Ben: yeah. I [00:13:02] don't know. I, I think, yeah, I'm pretty sure. I think he has, [00:13:04] scientifically
Dave: speaking.
Ben: Yeah. You think so?
Dave: [00:13:06] Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I asked Chad [00:13:08] GPT for all the logical fallacies that [00:13:10] guys like that make. 'cause there's a pattern, a [00:13:12] recipe for health trolls and he's [00:13:14] just like a quintessential health troll.
Ben: Oh yeah. [00:13:16] And
Dave: it's like, oh yeah, the ad hom attacking [00:13:18] people the way I just did his small penis.[00:13:20]
So see how that worked? Lane, um, that [00:13:22] worked really well on you and you're triggered [00:13:24] right now. And so I just gotta say [00:13:26] like. If you're feeling triggered by [00:13:28] me, that means you're carrying a loaded gun. But [00:13:30] my fingers on the trigger. I love [00:13:32] you. Okay. Anyway, I'm sorry I [00:13:34] got distracted. I know he is coming after you.
That was just [00:13:36] a gift. Yeah. From both of us to you Lane.
Ben: Yeah. [00:13:38] Thanks LA. Yeah, he's, he made nine videos [00:13:40] about me. I've counted all nine of them. It's fun,
Dave: [00:13:42] you know, um, it, it makes me [00:13:44] laugh because the, the pattern is [00:13:46] there and then they oversimplify your [00:13:48] arguments, then they insult you. [00:13:50] Uh, and most of the time that [00:13:52] disregulates people.
But if you've learned how [00:13:54] to meditate and how to just be a New [00:13:56] York Times best long author, oh, by the way, he never [00:13:58] has. But if you're doing something [00:14:00] like that, I. You can [00:14:02] just say, that's not what your mom said, [00:14:04] lane. Mm. And when you say stuff like [00:14:06] that because you weren't triggered, they [00:14:08] just get triggered more and more.
And it's like winding up one of [00:14:10] those little like Barbies where you pull the string, it's like, rah, [00:14:12] rah, rah, rah, rah, rah rah. And you can just watch him. [00:14:14] Rah, rah rah, rah, rah.
Ben: So that's, [00:14:16] that's his thing though. That's how he's [00:14:18] grown his follow uhhuh. And it's not how we [00:14:20] grow ours. We don't, no. It's go and attack people, but [00:14:22] it, well actually I just kind of did.
Does that make me a [00:14:24] bad person? Well, you know, you did it in a fun way here, [00:14:26] but that's not your social media platform, is [00:14:28] what I'm saying. You're not making videos every week [00:14:30] about somebody you hate in our space.
Dave: [00:14:32] No. And, and also this is in [00:14:34] my mind, playful, like, 'cause [00:14:36] I, by the way, I'm doing this in part 'cause I know he is [00:14:38] come after you.
He's come after me for 10 [00:14:40] years, I've seen it. Um, oh yeah. And [00:14:42] uh, he just came up to me like a few days ago [00:14:44] saying, I'm gonna do a mean video about Dave. [00:14:46] And I'm like, oh no, [00:14:48] you're gonna do a mean video and tell [00:14:50] more people about my work that [00:14:52] that has its own merit. Just like, [00:14:54] so, I just want to point that [00:14:56] out, that.
[00:14:58] You will face more criticism. Mm-hmm. [00:15:00] Now that you're a truth [00:15:02] speaking New York Times bestselling author [00:15:04] and you have my support and all the good [00:15:06] people in the space, we all know the [00:15:08] pattern. Right. So just, [00:15:10] you've got a lot of support. Thank you, Dave. And, [00:15:12] uh, we talked about salt. We talked [00:15:14] about insulin. We talked about glucose.
And you [00:15:16] didn't once mention seed [00:15:18] oils. Talk to me about seed oils. [00:15:20]
Ben: Yeah. Well it's, it's a fun conversation. What's [00:15:22] interesting is now seed oils are, are [00:15:24] mainstream, which is. I guess [00:15:26] great, but also really bad. 'cause there's a lot of [00:15:28] misconceptions and people saying it's actually really healthy [00:15:30] for you. First of all, when we, when [00:15:32] we talk about seed oils, we're talking about [00:15:34] processed seed oils very different [00:15:36] than, uh, unadulterated seed [00:15:38] oils.
It's very different. And [00:15:40] chapter four, in chapter seven of [00:15:42] Metabolic Freedom, I, I dive into, uh, seed [00:15:44] oils and of, of course, our mutual friend Dr. Kate [00:15:46] Shanahan, has been a leading voice here. Kate's so [00:15:48] fun. We she's so quirky and fun, right? [00:15:50] Yeah. And we know these CI oils, [00:15:52] they're highly unstable because of the [00:15:54] chemical nature of them.
They're called [00:15:56] polyunsaturated fatty acids. Of course, the [00:15:58] word poly means many. They contain [00:16:00] many double bonds. The more [00:16:02] double bonds a fat contains, mm-hmm. The [00:16:04] more unstable they are, the more [00:16:06] reactive they are to oxygen [00:16:08] pressure and heat. How do they [00:16:10] process them? Oxygen, [00:16:12] pressure and heat. The three things that make [00:16:14] them go rancid.
Mm-hmm. And of course, they [00:16:16] add chemical agents to cover it up, [00:16:18] put it into a bottle, canola, soybean, [00:16:20] and then the American Heart Association [00:16:22] puts their stamp of approval saying it is [00:16:24] heart healthy. And it is [00:16:26] complete opposite of heart healthy. [00:16:28] It's one of the driving forces for oxidative [00:16:30] stress accelerated aging.
Dr. [00:16:32] Martin Felds study looking at french [00:16:34] fries cooked in, uh, vegetable oil. [00:16:36] Mm-hmm. Analyzing the aldehyde content showed [00:16:38] that essentially 25 french fries [00:16:40] cooked in vegetable oil is [00:16:42] equivalent to 25 tobacco [00:16:44] cigarettes smoked. Which, which means, and [00:16:46] I think that goes over people's heads. If you've [00:16:48] never smoked a tobacco cigarette [00:16:50] before, but you've eaten [00:16:52] 10,000 french fries, you've essentially smoked [00:16:54] 20 or 10,000 [00:16:56] tobacco cigarettes because of the aldehyde [00:16:58] content.
Dave: You nailed it. [00:17:00] And I've been on national [00:17:02] news getting criticized for saying I would smoke a [00:17:04] cigarette before I would eat a plate of french [00:17:06] fries, but that is just following the science. Yes. [00:17:08] So you are a hundred percent correct [00:17:10] about that. And if you're listening to this [00:17:12] going, oh, but I like french fries.
I don't [00:17:14] care. But I like, okay, [00:17:16] if you liked heroin. What would that [00:17:18] mean? Right. Maybe [00:17:20] you shouldn't do it except, well wait. [00:17:22] Pharmaceutical, heroin in low doses is a [00:17:24] longevity drug, but let's not go there. [00:17:26] Is it really? Yeah. Okay. [00:17:28] I wrote a, I wrote part of a chapter about that, my longevity [00:17:30] book. It's because blocking the [00:17:32] opiate receptor it's something that you can do [00:17:34] with low dose naltrexone, which is a much [00:17:36] more preferential root.
Ben: Yeah.
Dave: [00:17:38] But, uh, and so please don't use heroin or [00:17:40] tobacco as a result of listening to this. [00:17:42] You know, I don't use either [00:17:44] one, but I do use nicotine.
Ben: I do too. I actually [00:17:46] have it right here in my pocket.[00:17:48] [00:17:50]
But let, let me go back to [00:17:52] this, uh, seed oil thing. [00:17:54] Linoleic acid, which of course is this, omega [00:17:56] six fat. The half-life, as you know, is [00:17:58] 680 days. Which [00:18:00] means if you stopped eating it [00:18:02] today, half of these fats will be [00:18:04] in your cell membranes, mitochondrial [00:18:06] membranes, two years later, six to [00:18:08] seven years to remove it if you don't, you know, [00:18:10] replenish the, the fats in your, in your [00:18:12] body.
And the re they're an [00:18:14] 80% of our food supply. And Dave, I don't know what you [00:18:16] do when you go to restaurants. We haven't had dinner yet, [00:18:18] but I, I actually used something called, [00:18:20] um, I created this. Seed [00:18:22] oil allergy card. Oh, sweet. And I'll [00:18:24] give you one, but I go to restaurants and it says, dear [00:18:26] chef, I'm allergic to these oils.
Can you please [00:18:28] use the f following alternatives? That's [00:18:30] cool. And I use this 'cause I don't want to take the [00:18:32] hit. Yeah. But these companies like [00:18:34] Steak and Shake who are saying, Hey, we're [00:18:36] frying our french fries and beef towel, [00:18:38] which is a good fat, they're gonna [00:18:40] jump on this seed oil free train. But [00:18:42] when I did some research on steak and Shake, [00:18:44] they pre fry their french fries [00:18:46] and cannoli soybean before it's in [00:18:48] beef towel.
So when you use the [00:18:50] allergic word or an allergy card, [00:18:52] you, you're gonna make sure you don't take that hit. [00:18:54]
Dave: I, I love it [00:18:56] that you've got that. And, and thank you. [00:18:58] I have not in 18 years [00:19:00] eaten a seed oil. At [00:19:02] least not on purpose, except for [00:19:04] about three months. I did a little bit [00:19:06] of Udo's oils after [00:19:08] meeting with Udo, so I'll give it a try.
Ben: But [00:19:10] those are not processed.
Dave: They're completely unprocessed. [00:19:12] Yeah. I, I'm a fan of those. And you do [00:19:14] need a little bit of these [00:19:16] omega sixes. Yeah. About [00:19:18] 1.6% of grass fed beef. [00:19:20] Linoleic and I was a [00:19:22] little bit low on my labs, so I'm like, I'm gonna raise [00:19:24] my linoleic. And it's very hard to get [00:19:26] low. Right. But it, it takes [00:19:28] years of Oh yeah.
Eating. Oh yeah. You are
Ben: very rare.
Dave: [00:19:30] Yeah. So I think [00:19:32] my ratio of of six to [00:19:34] three was down to [00:19:36] 2.6 to one. That's great. Yeah.
Ben: Yeah. Like four to [00:19:38] one is a good ratio. Yeah. Four
Dave: is the target, but [00:19:40] under four is actually maybe [00:19:42] pro-inflammatory. So I, I overdid my [00:19:44] omega six avoidance, but that's, that's rare. It's [00:19:46] very rare.
So I could just eat some more walnuts or [00:19:48] something too. Yeah, exactly. It's not that hard to fix. [00:19:50] So. [00:19:52] What do I do at restaurants? I just [00:19:54] don't order stuff that they cook in oil. [00:19:56] And I, I [00:19:58] remember I was recently in Maryland, [00:20:00] uh, with my girlfriend and we went to a restaurant [00:20:02] and they had beef towel fries. I'm like, that's great.
You should [00:20:04] order this. And they brought this huge plate of fries [00:20:06] and I'm thinking that's like $18 [00:20:08] worth of Tao in there. That can't [00:20:10] be tall fries. Mm-hmm. So then we ask [00:20:12] like, oh yeah, we just pour some taot on top after [00:20:14] we fry them in the canola fryer. So [00:20:16] basically Tao fries are probably not [00:20:18] Tao fries unless you use Ben's [00:20:20] allergy card.
Can people get that card on your website? [00:20:22] They could
Ben: get it over at, uh, seed oil [00:20:24] card.com.
Dave: Okay. I also brought a whole bunch for you, [00:20:26] Dave. I used to say. [00:20:28] So going back 20 years ago, [00:20:30] no one at restaurants would [00:20:32] listen to that. They would just make fun of you for allergies. [00:20:34] So I would say, is that cooked in canola [00:20:36] oil?
And they'd be like no. And, [00:20:38] and then I'd say, oh, thank God. Because if it [00:20:40] is, I'm gonna, and I'd point to the floor, [00:20:42] I'm gonna fall down and have a seizure. I [00:20:44] froth at the mouth. It's really inconvenient. [00:20:46] And then they would turn white and go, let me check. And then they [00:20:48] come back.
Ben: That's good. [00:20:50] That's good.
Yeah. So when you state that it's an [00:20:52] allergy versus a preference, they're gonna pay [00:20:54] attention and, and also they don't wanna get sued.
Dave: [00:20:56] And also guys. Be [00:20:58] respectful with your server. Yeah. I, I just have to say that. [00:21:00] Yeah.
Ben: Tip 'em well be respectful. Yeah.
Dave: [00:21:02] Like if you're, if you're high demand, you have to be a [00:21:04] high tipper and if not, you're probably a bad [00:21:06] person.
Ben: Yeah. Right on. [00:21:08] Exactly. Treat, treat 'em well. And when you have a card, they could [00:21:10] just show it to the chef. It makes it a lot easier. [00:21:12] Uh, and, uh, you treat 'em well. You do a good [00:21:14] job. And when you, when you swap these [00:21:16] fats out, the bad fats mm-hmm. With, [00:21:18] with avocado oil. Olive oil. [00:21:20] Butter gh. Okay. Uh, let's, you [00:21:22] wanna talk about that?
Yeah, you gotta talk about avocado [00:21:24] oil. Let's talk about avocado oil. Okay. Yeah,
Dave: let's, [00:21:26] good. What's your take on avocado oil? 'cause this, this [00:21:28] is always a conundrum for me.
Ben: Yeah. Well, [00:21:30] organic cold pressed avocado oil, it's a [00:21:32] monounsaturated fat, so of course it has a [00:21:34] single double bond, so it's a more stable than [00:21:36] poly, but not as stable as saturated fat.[00:21:38]
But
Dave: is it really mono? It's a [00:21:40] substantial amount of oleic in there.
Ben: [00:21:42] It is. But if it, but it's not [00:21:44] processed the way that canola and soybean is. [00:21:46] So then for salads, they're using hex same, they're not [00:21:48] using. Right. Yeah.
Dave: You could use it for salad, but [00:21:50] not for cooking.
Ben: Yeah. No, for, I eat [00:21:52] like it for salad dressing, like Primal Kitchen [00:21:54] products.
It has there. There you
Dave: go. Yeah. Yeah. Mark's [00:21:56] Mark Sisson's stuff. Mark was just on the show too. [00:21:58]
Ben: New shoes. Yeah. Mark's great. He is my neighbor down in Miami. Yeah. That's so cool. I [00:22:00] love Mark.
Dave: Yeah, he's great. Old, [00:22:02] old school biohacker.
Ben: Yeah. He is the [00:22:04] father of metabolic flexibility. We gotta give him a [00:22:06] shout out 'cause this book about metabolic [00:22:08] flexibility and we, we'd be remiss if we didn't mention [00:22:10] Mark a
Dave: hundred percent.
So [00:22:12] thanks Mark.
Ben: Yeah.
Dave: [00:22:14] Now. Back to avocado oil. [00:22:16] Yeah. It has a high smoke point. That means I [00:22:18] can cook with it, right?
Ben: No, it doesn't. Thank [00:22:20] you. Yeah. So there tell me, there was really interesting [00:22:22] study, Dave, that was done in New Zealand, [00:22:24] um, a few years ago. And they looked at polar [00:22:26] compounds versus smoke point.
[00:22:28] Polar compounds are carcinogenic. It's what's [00:22:30] produced when you heat these fats. Mm-hmm. [00:22:32] And it used the top eight cooking [00:22:34] oils. So it used avocado, [00:22:36] canola it used virgin olive oil, extra [00:22:38] virgin olive oil. And it, it had [00:22:40] two different trials. They, they [00:22:42] heated, it heated these fats to [00:22:44] 464 degrees Fahrenheit.
They fried with it [00:22:46] and the other one was uh, [00:22:48] 360 degrees Fahrenheit for four hours. And they [00:22:50] looked at the polar compounds. The [00:22:52] smoke point didn't matter because these [00:22:54] vegetable oils had the highest smoke point, [00:22:56] but they also produced the most of these [00:22:58] carcinogenic polar count compounds. [00:23:00] Coconut oil was stable.[00:23:02]
Mm-hmm. Avocado oil was kind of mid. [00:23:04] Yep. But you know, it was interesting right. [00:23:06] Extra virgin olive [00:23:08] oil produced the least amount of [00:23:10] polar compounds, even though it had a [00:23:12] lower smoke pool.
Dave: Lower than [00:23:14] coconut. Lower than
Ben: coconut. But if you [00:23:16] smoked it, what happened? Even [00:23:18] at the frying point with smoking where
Dave: it's [00:23:20] smoking coming off
Ben: the top, yes, they did a four [00:23:22] hour frying with it, but it [00:23:24] has to be real [00:23:26] extraversion, organic olive oil [00:23:28] because all the polyphenols, the oil [00:23:30] canals, oil canol protect it [00:23:32] from going rancid.
But if it's cheap olive [00:23:34] oil, no, that it's not good.
Dave: It's not [00:23:36] good. I have not recommended cooking olive [00:23:38] oil. You can taste when it goes [00:23:40] rancid and it can, and it goes rancid pretty [00:23:42] easily when you cook with it. And [00:23:44] I feel like we're cheating when. [00:23:46] So with olive oil, you should [00:23:48] remove the polyphenols [00:23:50] or you should add polyphenols back [00:23:52] into any other oil.
So if you take Talo [00:23:54] or GI and you throw [00:23:56] rosemary or oregano, which [00:23:58] are really good antioxidants, they [00:24:00] protect the oils. Good tip. [00:24:02] Similarly to doing olive oil. So [00:24:04] I will never cook with olive oil because why [00:24:06] would you waste all those precious antioxidants you're [00:24:08] supposed to be eating? Fair point. And And I [00:24:10] take a hundred milligrams of [00:24:12] hydroxy tyros, which is the active compound in [00:24:14] olive oil anyway, which is about a thousand [00:24:16] bottles worth.
I feel like we're at the [00:24:18] stage with olive oil. Like we were with [00:24:20] wine. Wine has resveratrol, therefore I'll get [00:24:22] drunk off my ass and giving myself cancer and [00:24:24] aging and high uric acid and all the [00:24:26] crap that alcohol causes. So [00:24:28] cooking with olive oil is the same dumb [00:24:30] thing. Don't do it. Yeah. Cook with butter [00:24:32] or ghee or whatever.
Yeah. [00:24:34] And just add some herbs. Yeah.
Ben: I, [00:24:36] I just take a shot of olive oil. Oil or [00:24:38] sometimes put it in my coffee too. I like the taste of it. Ew [00:24:40] dude. It's not
Dave: bad. Oh, [00:24:42] man. Do you know about the [00:24:44] Starbucks version of that?
Ben: I heard about it. [00:24:46] I've never tried it.
Dave: Can I share a little [00:24:48] story with you? Of course. All right.
It, I mean, this [00:24:50] is your interview, but, uh, I just, I [00:24:52] I want to, uh, I wanna show, 'cause you'll, you're gonna [00:24:54] laugh so [00:24:56] people kind of know I did oil infused coffee. [00:24:58] Mm-hmm. Like MCT and butter is the thing. [00:25:00] Right. And [00:25:02] Howard Schultz came out with his, I forget [00:25:04] what they called it now, olive oil infused [00:25:06] coffee.
And he said, this is the [00:25:08] industry's first oil infused coffee. [00:25:10] Wow. Right. And. So I [00:25:12] told a little story on social media. I [00:25:14] hired the first Starbucks employee back when I [00:25:16] was at, at Bulletproof, and [00:25:18] she parked next to Howard at his $10 [00:25:20] million coffee shop in Seattle. And he goes, what are you doing? [00:25:22] And she goes, I'm [00:25:24] working for this company called Bulletproof.
[00:25:26] They put butter in coffee. And he goes, I [00:25:28] hope they paid you up front. And [00:25:30] so and so [00:25:32] in my social media posts, I'm like, [00:25:34] Howard. We did pay up [00:25:36] front. Thank you. Right. And then, [00:25:38] uh, since you're the industry's first, let me give you [00:25:40] some hints about disaster pants. Oh
Ben: [00:25:42] yeah, yeah. And
Dave: then a month later, [00:25:44] all these media reports came out that people drinking [00:25:46] the Starbucks olive oil coffee were filling their [00:25:48] pants because, well, there are [00:25:50] problems if you don't do it Right.
So anyway, it, it just made [00:25:52] me laugh. It was like the full circle 10 [00:25:54] years later thing. And [00:25:56] you, that's funny. I have no beef with Howard at all. I, you know, he's, [00:25:58] he's an amazing entrepreneur of course. And he brought [00:26:00] coffee, like quality coffee to the country and like [00:26:02] all kinds of good stuff. But like, the [00:26:04] story there around olive [00:26:06] oil and coffee just triggered me to think about [00:26:08] that.
You also coin in good coin
Ben: you also coined the [00:26:10] term disaster pants. I think I heard it from you.
Dave: [00:26:12] No, it wasn't me, it was Kelly Starrt.
Ben: Oh, [00:26:14] was it Kelly Star?
Dave: Yeah. Yeah, the old [00:26:16] leopard. Yeah. He, he was on one of my [00:26:18] shows and we were kind of joking about [00:26:20] street grade MCTs before I came out with the, [00:26:22] the old stuff.
I used to use the C eight [00:26:24] MCT that didn't cause that. [00:26:26] He came up with that and my daughter [00:26:28] updated it. Now it's underwear. Surprise. So [00:26:30] thanks Anna. [00:26:32] Underwear. Surprise. Either way, [00:26:34] guys. If you blend too much olive oil, which I [00:26:36] don't love the taste of or butter [00:26:38] and especially mct Oh yeah. Into your [00:26:40] even endangered coffee, you can overdo it.
[00:26:42] So yeah,
Ben: I've seen
Dave: that. [00:26:44] Now, do you use MCT for your metabolic [00:26:46] flexibility or ketone supplements at all? What's your [00:26:48] take on those?
Ben: Uh, I don't u use [00:26:50] too, too much MCT, but, uh, when I do, [00:26:52] it's a C eight variety for ketone [00:26:54] production. I talk about it in chapter 11 as a way [00:26:56] to enhance ketone production.
Mm-hmm. C eight seems to be [00:26:58] the best for, for ketone production.
Dave: And there are [00:27:00] studies supporting that now. Yeah. There weren't, [00:27:02] when I first, I, I could just feel the difference, so I [00:27:04] talked about it, but yeah. Okay. [00:27:06] So you don't use much, um, but you [00:27:08] recommend it as being one of the things you can do or you [00:27:10] don't recommend it?
I'm good either way. Don't start, I do
Ben: recommend it, [00:27:12] especially for somebody who's transitioning from sugar [00:27:14] burner to fat burner. It, I want, I want to [00:27:16] help their metabolizes and produce ketones. [00:27:18] Endogenously versus exogenously. [00:27:20] Not that I'm opposed to exogenous ketones. [00:27:22] I'll take that for me. Like when I [00:27:24] travel Yeah.
To help with radiation. I'll take it [00:27:26] before like an interview. I'll take it as a biohack. I'll [00:27:28] take it before like, uh. I play a lot of [00:27:30] basketball and when I do carnivore, [00:27:32] uh, which I tend to do a lot I, and I [00:27:34] play two hours of basketball in the Miami Heat, [00:27:36] I could bonk. Yeah. So I'll take exogenous [00:27:38] ketones and it helps kind of prevent that [00:27:40] bonking.
So I use it strategically.
Dave: [00:27:42] Why don't you just have a little bit of [00:27:44] honey if you're bonking [00:27:46] in the Miami heat?
Ben: Well, when I do [00:27:48] carnivore, sometimes I'll do carnivore without [00:27:50] honey. I know technically it's, uh, it can be [00:27:52] part of a carnivore approach, but [00:27:54] depending on how you do it. So if I do like a strict [00:27:56] carnivore approach, there's no sugar, no honey.[00:27:58]
Uh, but no, I love honey when I'm not doing [00:28:00] a strict carnivore approach.
Dave: Got it. I [00:28:02] tried a carnivore [00:28:04] thing before Carnivore had a name. So, so [00:28:06] before I wrote the Bulletproof Diet, this [00:28:08] is the first big intermittent fasting book that [00:28:10] talked about intermittent fasting. Yeah. And keto [00:28:12] and, well, I mean, I mean, let's face it, [00:28:14] Dr.
Atkins owned the keto the year I was [00:28:16] born. He came out with a great book about it. I just [00:28:18] didn't know about it until I was later in life. [00:28:20] He missed the seed oil thing. That wasn't his thing. Correct. And he [00:28:22] missed the bad sweetener thing and even the [00:28:24] low quality protein thing, but. You know, [00:28:26] kudos to the innovators.
[00:28:28] So the Bulletproof Diet was [00:28:30] probably, I, I don't, it was [00:28:32] one of the first big keto books, if not the [00:28:34] first. Yeah. And certainly the first big [00:28:36] intermittent fasting book. But [00:28:38] I, before I wrote this, 'cause I, I'd [00:28:40] been working on keto for years, [00:28:42] trying to lose the 50 pounds. I couldn't lose, I [00:28:44] lost 50 pounds in three months on old [00:28:46] fashioned keto.
And the other 50 pounds took 10 years [00:28:48] of tweaking. So it was about [00:28:50] metabolic flexibility. And you've got so many [00:28:52] updates in Metabolic Freedom in your new book, which is [00:28:54] great. And thank you for doing all that work. [00:28:56] What I, what I found was I could [00:28:58] go full keto and I did [00:29:00] it where I was, or not full keto.
[00:29:02] I could go full carnivore, I guess [00:29:04] carnivore plus butter, I was still doing, 'cause it, I [00:29:06] just was trying to get enough calories in. So I was doing [00:29:08] carnivore. Yeah. Like four or 5,000 calories [00:29:10] a day. I was doing less [00:29:12] sleep and I felt [00:29:14] just amazing and [00:29:16] grew my first six pack, [00:29:18] uh, which was, uh, which was amazing.
I, I [00:29:20] posted a picture of it and then Joe Rogan said it [00:29:22] wasn't my six pack, which was kind of funny. Like he [00:29:24] was in the, I hate Dave phase of, [00:29:26] of our relationship. And I'm like, [00:29:28] what did I do? But, [00:29:30] um, it was, in fact it was on a trip to Singapore [00:29:32] when I took that picture. I remember it. And [00:29:34] so I'd grown these abs going, God, [00:29:36] I'm just doing this thing and I feel so good.
I'm not [00:29:38] gonna stop. But after three [00:29:40] months I realized I'd given myself [00:29:42] leaky gut. I developed an egg [00:29:44] allergy. I was just [00:29:46] not sleeping. I was sleeping with the headband though. Track [00:29:48] my sleep and my sleep just went all to hell. [00:29:50]
Ben: Was it just red meat and butter that you were doing?
Dave: [00:29:52] Yep.
Ben: Okay.
Dave: Yep. [00:29:54] And I think what happened is [00:29:56] that I just didn't have any more lining of my [00:29:58] gut, which is made out of polysaccharides, [00:30:00] right?
And so then Akkermansia starts to [00:30:02] tunnel through and like you can get leaky [00:30:04] gut. I did get leaky gut. [00:30:06] So that was what led me to recommend [00:30:08] Cyclical Keto in the Bulletproof [00:30:10] Diet. So what, it was a long [00:30:12] story, but here's the big question for [00:30:14] you. What is the right amount of [00:30:16] time to do carnivore before [00:30:18] you cycle out of it?
Or do you recommend [00:30:20] just endless carnivore?
Ben: I don't recommend [00:30:22] endless carnivore or endless keto at [00:30:24] all. And I speak at a lot of keto conferences [00:30:26] and do keynotes and my colleagues. Thank you you for your work on that. [00:30:28] Yeah. My colleagues do not agree with me. It makes [00:30:30] them very angry, doesn't it? Yeah.
They just, [00:30:32] they, they, uh, I, I'm wrong about [00:30:34] this. That's another form of metabolic and [00:30:36] flexibility, by the way, only burning fat.
Dave: [00:30:38] Thank you. It, it is another [00:30:40] form. Now I gotta ask you this question. Mm-hmm. [00:30:42] You've noticed that vegans are very easily [00:30:44] angered. Yeah. Have you noticed that [00:30:46] people have been in ketosis for a year straight or [00:30:48] also easily angered?
Yeah, I have noticed [00:30:50] it. Yeah. I wonder what's going on with that. Yeah. [00:30:52] I wonder if metabolic [00:30:54] inflexibility equals [00:30:56] mental and flexibility. Yeah, it
Ben: does.
Dave: [00:30:58] I believe it does. And
Ben: hormones, [00:31:00] uh, you know, to the carnivore thing, [00:31:02] I did an experiment last year, Dave, [00:31:04] and I've done carnivore 40 days, [00:31:06] 30 days since like 2019.
But [00:31:08] last year I decided to do 90 days. So three [00:31:10] months similar to yours. I. But before I [00:31:12] went into it, I did extensive blood [00:31:14] work on day one. Uh, I did a full [00:31:16] lipid panel, thyroid panel and inflammatory [00:31:18] marker. It was like $3,500 worth Yeah. [00:31:20] Of blood work. I did a stool [00:31:22] test on day one and I put on a [00:31:24] continuous glucose monitor on day one.
And I [00:31:26] also had all my ora ring stats to see what [00:31:28] it looked like before and then after, and then I did 90 [00:31:30] straight days of, uh, carnivore diet [00:31:32] wasn't just meat and butter, it was, [00:31:34] um, all red meat, poultry. It [00:31:36] was eggs and it was sheep and goat dairy. Mm-hmm. [00:31:38] But, but no plants, no fiber, dairy helps [00:31:40] a lot. 'cause you get some carbs from that.
It does. [00:31:42] Yeah, it does. But no, no vegetables, [00:31:44] no plants. Mm-hmm. Uh, no fiber. Mm. [00:31:46] And when I, when I got the stool test [00:31:48] results back, it was about three weeks into already [00:31:50] being carnivore. My, my [00:31:52] diversity was, was average. It wasn't great, [00:31:54] it wasn't poor, it was average, but the [00:31:56] recommendations on that stool test said [00:31:58] less keto, less meat, [00:32:00] more plants, more fiber, more [00:32:02] polyphenols, the standard way of [00:32:04] thinking, that's how you increase diversity.
Uh, [00:32:06] I did the complete opposite. I kept going for [00:32:08] 90 days just doing carnivore, and then when I [00:32:10] retested on day 90, the same stool [00:32:12] test. You would think that it would [00:32:14] have shown a disaster. Like I would've seen a [00:32:16] decrease in my gut microbiome [00:32:18] diversity. My diversity actually [00:32:20] increased, and I developed [00:32:22] five keystone bacteria [00:32:24] on day 90 that didn't show up there on day [00:32:26] one.
Wow. And seven core [00:32:28] bacteria on day 90 that [00:32:30] didn't show there. On day one, the, the chief [00:32:32] scientific officer like reached out to me and [00:32:34] said, was it Biome or which one it was? Um, it [00:32:36] was Tend Health. Okay. They're, they're a [00:32:38] smaller company, but their chief [00:32:40] scientific officer reached out to me [00:32:42] 'cause he, he, it changed the way he [00:32:44] viewed the gut microbiome.
Now. Wow. With [00:32:46] that being said, if I would've continued [00:32:48] doing that approach, I think I would've seen [00:32:50] the opposite effect. Mm-hmm. [00:32:52] Uh, where my diversity increased and it would've [00:32:54] led to problems. But that seemed to have been a good, [00:32:56] sweet spot for me, the 90 days. But, [00:32:58] but here's the interesting thing about the [00:33:00] cholesterol panel.
Oh yeah. Let's get into [00:33:02] that. Because my total cholesterol on [00:33:04] day one of the carnivore approach [00:33:06] was already over 300. I, I [00:33:08] tend to eat a lot of fat and I, I am I'm a [00:33:10] responder to that. Not a big deal. [00:33:12] My LDL was one 50 on day [00:33:14] one and on day 90 my [00:33:16] total cholesterol went to [00:33:18] 450 and my total LDL went to [00:33:20] 350.
Dave: So there are [00:33:22] people who are
Ben: freaking out right now.
Dave: Yeah.
Ben: [00:33:24] Yeah. Heart attack, stroke.
Dave: Okay, so Nick [00:33:26] Norvis was just on the show. I'm talking [00:33:28] about guys just like you. Yep. Okay. [00:33:30] Tell me about that.
Ben: I am [00:33:32] what, what Nick and other researchers call a [00:33:34] lean mass hyper responder. Okay. [00:33:36] And if I would've shown those labs to [00:33:38] a cardiologist or a conventional [00:33:40] doctor, they would've freaked out.
Somebody [00:33:42] watching and listening right now is probably like, dude, that's [00:33:44] sounds dangerous. [00:33:46] First of all, total cholesterol is, is a [00:33:48] almost meaningless number. More people [00:33:50] die. Thank you. From heart disease with normal to low [00:33:52] cholesterol than high cholesterol. Yes. [00:33:54] Total, LDL is also [00:33:56] kind of a meaningless marker if [00:33:58] you didn't look at the panel, the, the particle [00:34:00] sizes.
So I got the NMR profile mm-hmm [00:34:02] where I looked at the particle sizes. [00:34:04] Pattern A is the good [00:34:06] large and fluffy LDL particles that go [00:34:08] right through your arteries. It doesn't cause any [00:34:10] damage. Almost all of [00:34:12] my particles were pattern A versus [00:34:14] the pattern B, the small sticky that we [00:34:16] don't want. So I got the pattern sizes done and it [00:34:18] looked really good.
But I also [00:34:20] got my HDL done. Mm-hmm. And that was [00:34:22] over 60. Both times my [00:34:24] triglycerides were below 70 times [00:34:26] Protective. Protective. My C-reactive protein [00:34:28] was under 0.5. Both times [00:34:30] protective homocysteine was in the single [00:34:32] digits both times protective [00:34:34] and. Fasting insulin, although it's [00:34:36] not a direct inflammatory marker [00:34:38] to me, it's, it's a very important [00:34:40] inflammatory marker.
Mm-hmm. It was 3.2 both times. [00:34:42] There you go. Sensitive. Right. So when we looked at the full [00:34:44] picture, and I had Dr. Philip [00:34:46] Obia, do you know who that is? He's a, [00:34:48] he's a carnivore heart surgeon who wrote a [00:34:50] book called Stay Off My Operating [00:34:52] Table. He's based out of Oh, interesting.
Dave: I haven't [00:34:54] interviewed him. Okay.
Ben: Yeah, so I would [00:34:56] connect you if you want, but he reviewed my labs because [00:34:58] I wanted to bring somebody who's done [00:35:00] 5,000 heart surgeries. And he [00:35:02] said in a nutshell, and you could watch this on [00:35:04] YouTube, I put all my labs on there. But he said, in a [00:35:06] nutshell, you were healthy on day one [00:35:08] before you started carnivore, and you were at [00:35:10] low risk of heart disease on day one.
After [00:35:12] 90 days of carnivore, you were even healthier [00:35:14] and even lower risk of, of heart disease. I [00:35:16] that even though
Dave: you had such high cholesterol, [00:35:18] correct. From a heart surgeon. From a heart surgeon, yes. [00:35:20] See so many people, [00:35:22] guys like, play this part [00:35:24] twice. Just hit rewind for 15 seconds. If you're [00:35:26] worried about high cholesterol, it's the [00:35:28] inflammatory markers.
That's right. That's where it's [00:35:30] at. I remember back in [00:35:32] my late twenties, I [00:35:34] must have been about 30 and I started doing [00:35:36] all this, this kind of dieting. I [00:35:38] went into one of the first longevity doctors. There [00:35:40] was the same one who said, Dave, your [00:35:42] testosterone's lower than your mom's. Oh, he [00:35:44] put me on testosterone.
Is that true story? Yeah, that's a true [00:35:46] story. Yeah.
Ben: Geez.
Dave: And it, it [00:35:48] helped me so much to get my testosterone levels back [00:35:50] where they should be in almost every young [00:35:52] man. Actually women, they're in [00:35:54] that same situation right now. I know where you feel like [00:35:56] crap. It's 'cause you don't have the hormones to feel good.[00:35:58]
But I was an early [00:36:00] adopter of low t [00:36:02] well what, when he looked at my labs, [00:36:04] he just scratched his head. Same thing. My [00:36:06] triglycerides like 39 or something. [00:36:08] 'cause I wasn't eating fructose and [00:36:10] very many carbs. And my [00:36:12] HDL was 87 or [00:36:14] something. This is going back in 25 [00:36:16] years. So I'm remember, but these are pretty well [00:36:18] stuck in my head.
I don't remember what the LDL [00:36:20] was, but my total was [00:36:22] probably like two 50. Two 60 or something. [00:36:24] And you just scratch his head and he said, well, [00:36:26] your blood panels are technically [00:36:28] disordered but low risk. [00:36:30] And it was like, they're not supposed, you're not supposed to do [00:36:32] that. Right. And that's that thing [00:36:34] where just [00:36:36] because the average looks like [00:36:38] something
Ben: mm-hmm.
I
Dave: don't care about [00:36:40] average because no one listening to this is [00:36:42] average. We're all, some mix of, some of [00:36:44] our, some things are above, some are [00:36:46] below. And what you wanna do is, well, what are [00:36:48] the things that make you an [00:36:50] outlier with low risk? And [00:36:52] that might mean you have high HDL, which [00:36:54] is highly protective.
Right. [00:36:56] And to your point, try [00:36:58] carnivore, get your labs. I think 90 [00:37:00] days at the upper limit of where you'd want to do it.
Ben: Yeah, [00:37:02] I agree. Unless you have like severe autoimmune. Yeah. [00:37:04]
Dave: And even then I would [00:37:06] suggest that you do 30 [00:37:08] days and then see what happens. [00:37:10] Because even if you have severe autoimmunity, which I have [00:37:12] had, and I still have a bunch of autoimmune [00:37:14] stuff.
Which autoimmune do you have? [00:37:16] I've had Hashimoto's. I got, I've gotten rid of my [00:37:18] markers a few times, but they'll come creeping back. It'll just [00:37:20] expose people to toxic mold. If you [00:37:22] have the HL a DR four thing, like you're gonna [00:37:24] get some autoimmunity. So [00:37:26] that's, that's an annoying thing. [00:37:28] And there's probably a few others that float around and there [00:37:30] just runs genetically in the family and all [00:37:32] and just highly [00:37:34] resilient to that stuff compared to [00:37:36] any point in my life.
And it's something I [00:37:38] actively manage. 'cause I know that it's one of the [00:37:40] things that I'm susceptible to.
Ben: Yeah, same. I [00:37:42] have, uh, reyna's and ery [00:37:44] myalgia.
Dave: Oh, interesting. Reyna's the cold [00:37:46] hands kind of thing, right? Yeah.
Ben: Yep.
Dave: I used [00:37:48] to get incredibly [00:37:50] cold hands and feet to the point that [00:37:52] I would've probably qualified if I'd have [00:37:54] been diagnosed with it.
I don't have it anymore. Great. [00:37:56] Because I, with the cold exposure and [00:37:58] training and all that stuff, but it took a long time [00:38:00] and enough thyroid hormone.
Ben: Yeah.
Dave: [00:38:02] And there's, there's all these things where. [00:38:04] Everybody listening to this, [00:38:06] you are not normal. If you [00:38:08] look at 10,000 variables in your [00:38:10] biology, there are some where you [00:38:12] have weaknesses and some where you're extra [00:38:14] resilient.
So you get your [00:38:16] metabolic freedom, get your metabolic [00:38:18] flexibility down. So now your [00:38:20] mitochondria can help to fill in the gaps and [00:38:22] then find out, don't eat that food. It will [00:38:24] trash you. In my case. Don't take eocene [00:38:26] like that's not good for me. You'll pick gels, [00:38:28] right? Um, but it might be really good for [00:38:30] you, right?
Yeah. Who the heck knows. That's right. That's right. [00:38:32] So data-driven [00:38:34] approaches work and being [00:38:36] cautious of something like [00:38:38] fasting, maybe starting with a 30 day fast [00:38:40] is a bad idea, right? Or even [00:38:42] a 10 day fast, right? And with [00:38:44] keto, do it for a week or with [00:38:46] carnivore, do it for a week, do it for a [00:38:48] month, and go in and out.
[00:38:50] What I found when I was doing [00:38:52] carnivore ish things, when [00:38:54] I started working on my longevity book, there's [00:38:56] very clear [00:38:58] associations with the amount of gut [00:39:00] bacteria and the abundance, the [00:39:02] different, uh, number of species. Yep. The [00:39:04] diversity, um, that those, the higher, [00:39:06] those are the younger you are biologically.[00:39:08]
So I'm like, what can I do? So I took a [00:39:10] combination of prebiotics every day [00:39:12] in my coffee and [00:39:14] magically I quadrupled the [00:39:16] number of species while I [00:39:18] was on a fully keto diet. [00:39:20] How long did that take? Oh, it took about a [00:39:22] month. That's it. It's not that [00:39:24] hard. Try taking 40 grams [00:39:26] of prebiotic [00:39:28] fiber every day of mixed types.
Did you [00:39:30] notice a difference in how you felt? I should, I [00:39:32] definitely noticed a difference in how I pooped. I've [00:39:34] never had a hard time pooping on, uh, [00:39:36] on a carnivore diet, um, or a keto [00:39:38] diet. That's same. Not my, not, not a problem [00:39:40] for me, same. But they were, they were [00:39:42] definitely healthier, let's say. Okay. [00:39:44] Um, some of my inflammation markers went down.[00:39:46]
I'm also. I wanna go [00:39:48] deep with you because the [00:39:50] act of writing a book, especially [00:39:52] one with as much detail as metabolic [00:39:54] freedom, it makes you learn the content so [00:39:56] deeply, so it's all fresh in your mind. [00:39:58] I'm torn about gut [00:40:00] bacteria, so I have an early [00:40:02] advisor investor and huge [00:40:04] proponent of viome and getting the [00:40:06] data right, [00:40:08] and I've recommended that test I know seven [00:40:10] times.
Um, Naveen, um, his [00:40:12] dear friend on the board at Upgrade [00:40:14] Labs, uh, he'll be at the biohacking conference, [00:40:16] um, so they can show me [00:40:18] what's going on. It, it was their test that showed what [00:40:20] was there. But then I also look [00:40:22] at germ germ-free mice. [00:40:24] Right. Germ-free mice have no [00:40:26] gut bacteria. They're completely [00:40:28] sterile and they live in little bubbles.
Right? [00:40:30] And you can feed them as much food as they [00:40:32] want, and they're just lean and ripped and [00:40:34] just like super powerful. [00:40:36] And as soon as you put some mouse poop in there, they just [00:40:38] get obese and get diabetes. Hmm. [00:40:40] So why are they so [00:40:42] lean, ripped and metabolically [00:40:44] healthy when they don't have any bacteria?
Ben: Yeah, that's an inter, [00:40:46] I don't know. That's an interesting question. Uh, [00:40:48] I kind of go back and forth with the gut [00:40:50] bacteria. Conversation [00:40:52] two. I used to think it was everything like the [00:40:54] Yeah. King, queen, and everything in between of [00:40:56] longevity. The more diverse your gut bacteria, the [00:40:58] better it is for you.
Mm-hmm. And there might be some, some [00:41:00] components to that, but I'm also seeing [00:41:02] that it's the type of bacteria Yeah, of course. [00:41:04] We know akkermansia is, is, uh, the [00:41:06] skinny bacteria. It's either good or bad [00:41:08] though, right? Yeah. Right. There's a balance there. [00:41:10] So I think it's not about [00:41:12] total, like increasing diversity [00:41:14] total, but the right amount, the right, [00:41:16] yeah.
Type of bacteria in [00:41:18] relation to different bacterias, like [00:41:20] bacterias to akkermansia and looking at the [00:41:22] ratios. Mm-hmm. Which you have to understand [00:41:24] when you look at it. But the thing about the [00:41:26] gut microbiome testing, Dave, the gut [00:41:28] microbiome is always changing. I could do a [00:41:30] stool test today and [00:41:32] then do it again in seven days, and then in 14 [00:41:34] it'll continuously change and it's, it's hard to [00:41:36] kind of get a good, accurate picture.
[00:41:38] Unless you think differently, but that's what I've seen
Dave: it, [00:41:40] it can change as little as three [00:41:42] days. And there are some species that take longer to [00:41:44] change and the, the one [00:41:46] company that would know this better than anyone is [00:41:48] via, I think they have a million plus samples now. Yeah. So [00:41:50] we have enough of a data set that, [00:41:52] oh my gosh.
The, the knowledge there's [00:41:54] incredible. But [00:41:56] I just realized [00:41:58] that I'm opposed to [00:42:00] mindless diversity.
Ben: Yeah. [00:42:02]
Dave: It's like this, oh, we need [00:42:04] more diversity. So we want a [00:42:06] psychopath, a sociopath, a [00:42:08] terrorist. Right. An arsonist. [00:42:10] Right, because we've gotta make sure that they're all [00:42:12] represented here. I'm like, no, I want [00:42:14] curated diversity.
That's right. Yeah. Where [00:42:16] we're choosing like a [00:42:18] team of the right team [00:42:20] members that have all the [00:42:22] different skill sets that we want in our [00:42:24] gut. And I want this one that [00:42:26] makes glutathione and this one that makes [00:42:28] propionic acid, this one that makes but [00:42:30] butyric acid. Right. And I want them to [00:42:32] be all competing with each other and like [00:42:34] friends and whatever, but just saying [00:42:36] I have more, it [00:42:38] seems a little bit childish.
Ben: [00:42:40] Yeah. It's not giving you the full picture. That's why when [00:42:42] I did my report, I was looking at the keystone [00:42:44] bacteria. Yeah, the core bacteria and then the [00:42:46] ratios in between those. That's the full [00:42:48] picture. That's the best way to do it.[00:42:50] [00:42:52]
Dave: Do [00:42:54] you recommend prebiotics or [00:42:56] soluble fiber?
Ben: I like for [00:42:58] some people, yes. Some people who, [00:43:00] uh. Have [00:43:02] severe leaky gut, intestinal permeability. [00:43:04] Sometimes you could, um, create some irritation in [00:43:06] the gut lining. Mm-hmm. I like it personally though. Yeah. I'll, [00:43:08] I'll take it. I, I'm really fascinated [00:43:10] with you taking, you said 40 grams [00:43:12] of the prebiotics mm-hmm.
In a month and seeing [00:43:14] that Yeah. Quadruple you said, quadruple [00:43:16] you.
Dave: It quadrupled it. It was a mix [00:43:18] of rabano [00:43:20] galatin and [00:43:22] mostly acacia gum [00:43:24] and, um, hydrolyzed [00:43:26] guar gum. Okay. Yeah. Those are, [00:43:28] those are each feeds different groups. You could also have [00:43:30] added some like green banana flour, but not [00:43:32] too much because of oxalate.
Ben: Interesting. You, [00:43:34] you know, I think. A [00:43:36] hidden way or a not talked [00:43:38] about way to increase healthy gut [00:43:40] bacteria or stressors to the gut [00:43:42] microbiome like fasting or [00:43:44] even red light. Yes. Cold plunge, [00:43:46] sauna. I think if we stress it, [00:43:48] this is besides eating different foods [00:43:50] mm-hmm. We could create this diversity.
[00:43:52] Fasting is one of my favorite ways to create [00:43:54] a healthy gut microbiome. Totally. It's [00:43:56] incredible what you can do. And I, in [00:43:58] chapter seven of metabolic freedom, it's all about [00:44:00] fasting. And I talk about, uh, [00:44:02] energy diversion where you're not, when you're not eating [00:44:04] food, you know this, you talk about [00:44:06] this for a very long time.
It takes a lot of [00:44:08] energy and bandwidth and blood flow to, to [00:44:10] digest food. Correct. So when you don't eat, let's [00:44:12] say 14, 16 hours without food, [00:44:14] all that energy that was being spent [00:44:16] on digestion is now being [00:44:18] diverted towards healing energy diversion. [00:44:20] Correct. So it resets the gut [00:44:22] microbiome. Of course, there are studies on mice showing 24 [00:44:24] hours in a fast creates intestinal stem [00:44:26] cells that are produced.
So I think [00:44:28] fasting is an underrated tool for the gut [00:44:30] microbiome.
Dave: I love [00:44:32] your perspective on that. There's something [00:44:34] else. That is [00:44:36] maybe the, the red herring. [00:44:38] I wanna mix my metaphors like the red [00:44:40] elephant in the room. What
Ben: is
Dave: it? [00:44:42] What's the red
Ben: elephant? Dave?
Dave: [00:44:44] Saturated fat escorts, [00:44:46] lipopolysaccharide, bacterial [00:44:48] toxins across the gut more effectively [00:44:50] than anything else.
Yet you and I are fans [00:44:52] of saturated fat. How do you, [00:44:54] how do you respond to that?
Ben: [00:44:56] Well, I think when you have [00:44:58] saturated fat in combination with [00:45:00] carbohydrates, that is the issue. [00:45:02] High fat, high carb
Dave: because the [00:45:04] carbs feed the bacteria more that create more [00:45:06] LPS,
Ben: that's part of it. But [00:45:08] also the Randall cycle will, [00:45:10] will prioritize the, the, the [00:45:12] glucose versus the fat.
The fat [00:45:14] will pull up in the bloodstream raising [00:45:16] triglycerides and raising LPS levels. [00:45:18] Correct. So when you have high [00:45:20] saturated fat with a low [00:45:22] carbohydrate diet is incredible for your [00:45:24] body. It's not gonna raise LPS. It,
Dave: it [00:45:26] is, well it won't raise LP s in the gut, [00:45:28] but it does stress gut [00:45:30] bacteria. Yeah. But it is the stress bad.
Well, [00:45:32] stress increases LPS if you [00:45:34] have the species present that make [00:45:36] LPS. So it, it, [00:45:38] part of it I think may come down to [00:45:40] everything you said [00:45:42] and gut barrier function.
Ben: [00:45:44] Yeah.
Dave: And for that, if you're on a carnivore [00:45:46] diet, there's this thing [00:45:48] they sometimes call it animal [00:45:50] fiber, which is collagen protein.[00:45:52]
Ben: Yeah.
Dave: And having [00:45:54] some collagen, but not too much [00:45:56] is a really good idea.
Ben: I've heard you [00:45:58] say, and I want to get some clarification here. [00:46:00] Mm-hmm. You said. I think the threshold was [00:46:02] 30 or 40 grams of collagen. It's too much. It, [00:46:04] it's
Dave: likely [00:46:06] 20, but it could be 30 or 40 if you're on a high [00:46:08] protein diet. So if you're not on a high protein diet, it'd be [00:46:10] 20.
If you're on a high protein diet, it's [00:46:12] 30 or 40. Why is that? [00:46:14] Because the proline and [00:46:16] hydroxyproline that's present in [00:46:18] collagen can go down the oxalate [00:46:20] formation pathway. [00:46:22] Ah. And so if you're an old school [00:46:24] paleo person, or even, you know, my [00:46:26] Bulletproof diet book is now, what, [00:46:28] 14 years old or [00:46:30] something? I mentioned oxalate [00:46:32] and lectins and a lot of things.
There's been [00:46:34] whole branches of biohacking about them since [00:46:36] then. They're, they're all in the first [00:46:38] chapter. But I [00:46:40] under-indexed the importance [00:46:42] of oxalate as a [00:46:44] toxin compared to things like lectins. [00:46:46] They're both important, right? But oxalate [00:46:48] is a toxin for [00:46:50] everybody. I. On the planet, [00:46:52] and some people clear it a little bit better than [00:46:54] others, but it will kill anybody.
[00:46:56] Lectins either you're sensitive to [00:46:58] nightshades or you're not. Mm-hmm. Right. So there are [00:47:00] people, I can eat that one all the time, all day long, and [00:47:02] nothing bad happens. And other people, they eat it and they [00:47:04] get arthritis. Right? Yeah. So it's very, it's [00:47:06] very selective. [00:47:08] So if you're doing things [00:47:10] like xylitol, which I was also a fan of, that [00:47:12] also goes into [00:47:14] oxalate.
You're doing collagen and then [00:47:16] you're eating a lot of these paleo [00:47:18] foods. Certainly, I've talked about [00:47:20] kale forever, uh, [00:47:22] because the fetishization of kale is [00:47:24] just like morally repugnant. [00:47:26] Okay. I'm just kidding. But kale, that's [00:47:28] spinach. Kale, spinach is higher [00:47:30] than kale. Yeah. But kale is like waved [00:47:32] around as a health food when it's the dumbest food on the [00:47:34] planet.
Ben: Yeah,
Dave: and I've talked on [00:47:36] actually on the Joe Rogan show about which forms of [00:47:38] kale are higher in oxalate versus lower in [00:47:40] oxalate. So if you're, you're like [00:47:42] a kale masochist, you can eat [00:47:44] dino kale, like the dark dino kale [00:47:46] versus the, the lacy kale, which is the [00:47:48] worst. But like, there's no [00:47:50] reason to do that, that I can find.
Mm-hmm. There's all kinds [00:47:52] of downsides, but [00:47:54] oxalates one of them. And then you have raspberries and you [00:47:56] have almonds. And [00:47:58] like so many of these, in fact, almost [00:48:00] every single low [00:48:02] gluten flour is exceptionally high [00:48:04] oxalate. I know that buckwheat.
Ben: Dude, [00:48:06] when I was doing keto hardcore in 20 [00:48:08] 15, 20 16, almond [00:48:10] flour Almond Flo, it'll mess you up.
You know what [00:48:12] happened to me? I was getting reoccurring sty [00:48:14] in my eye. That is
Dave: [00:48:16] absolutely [00:48:18] 100% caused by [00:48:20] oxalate pistols coming out through your tear ducts.
Ben: It [00:48:22] would happen year after year. Yeah. [00:48:24] And it's so painful. It's so ugly. [00:48:26] And when I got rid of all these [00:48:28] oxalates, or I didn't, I shouldn't say get rid of [00:48:30] when I dramatically, you don't have to get rid of 'em, [00:48:32] de decreased it.
200
Dave: milligrams a
Ben: day per
Dave: [00:48:34] limit.
Ben: Yeah. Yep. Ha. Haven't had a stein in years. [00:48:36] Mm-hmm. I thought I was like [00:48:38] touching my hand at the gym and touching my eyes, and I [00:48:40] realized it's actually the freaking almond flour. [00:48:42] Almond flour. I was consuming high [00:48:44] rate. So my body was dumping those oxygens [00:48:46] and sweet potatoes.
Yeah. I didn't do too [00:48:48] much of those. It was, for me, it was the
Dave: almond
Ben: flour. I, [00:48:50]
Dave: I definitely over promoted sweet [00:48:52] potatoes. Um, I said, look, the two [00:48:54] lowest toxins are white rice and sweet potatoes. [00:48:56] Because soup potatoes have more nutrients [00:48:58] and they're better for you than white [00:49:00] potatoes, which have oxalate and lectins.
[00:49:02] But unfortunately I was overdoing those [00:49:04] as well. Mm-hmm. So I've double down on the [00:49:06] blueberries and [00:49:08] maybe don't eat the [00:49:10] raspberries, which are exceptionally high. They are. [00:49:12] And I look at this and then I, I [00:49:14] look at people who read your book, [00:49:16] read, you know, any, any of, of the, the [00:49:18] kind of keto paleo, like in our, [00:49:20] our quadrant of the map things.
[00:49:22] And we're gonna get metabolic [00:49:24] flexibility and we run a risk of getting [00:49:26] oxalate sensitivity [00:49:28] if we eat too many of these alleged super [00:49:30] foods. But then I [00:49:32] compare this to the way I was when I was a [00:49:34] vegan or a raw vegan, or, [00:49:36] you know, all respect to the, uh, [00:49:38] medical medium guy. [00:49:40] I, [00:49:42] I, I'm sure he is got his connection to the [00:49:44] angelic realms and all that, but his [00:49:46] connection to nutrition is [00:49:48] from the 1970s.
[00:49:50] And it is not okay to [00:49:52] do that kind of thing. It will, [00:49:54] it will mess you up. And it takes, [00:49:56] like you said in your [00:49:58] book, 680 days mm-hmm. [00:50:00] To get rid of half [00:50:02] the bad omega six fats [00:50:04] in your body. Yeah. Right. [00:50:06] And you're one of the few guys who knows that number. [00:50:08] I, I put it in the Bulletproof Diet too. [00:50:10] And it's, uh, an old study from [00:50:12] Ray Pete actually found that in [00:50:14] the 1950s, and I think Ray Pete's [00:50:16] half brilliant and half insane.
Yeah,
Ben: yeah. Yeah. [00:50:18] It's interesting. It's got quite the, the cult [00:50:20] following
Dave: too. Yeah. But, but like, [00:50:22] yeah, I, I went down that path [00:50:24] in the nineties and like, well, all, all the people [00:50:26] around that right now, like, you'll, you'll see what happens. [00:50:28] Yeah. So that said [00:50:30] that number six, eight days, if you start [00:50:32] on a medical medium or [00:50:34] if you start on a plant-based [00:50:36] sort of.
It's [00:50:38] gonna take a little while for it to catch up.
Ben: Mm-hmm. [00:50:40]
Dave: Just like it did for me. I felt great [00:50:42] on carnivore and I did it for, you know, six [00:50:44] months and I'm like, what has just happened to my body? [00:50:46] And the recovery period can be several [00:50:48] years. Yeah. Especially from plant [00:50:50] toxins and the recovery period [00:50:52] from excessive carnivore that [00:50:54] gives you leaky gut.
Mm-hmm. It's gonna be [00:50:56] faster, but you may have allergies [00:50:58] that you have a hard time getting rid of. Like [00:51:00] my, I'm still sensitive to eggs.
Ben: Yeah. Yeah. [00:51:02] No, it's interesting. The medical medium guy's very [00:51:04] popular. Mm-hmm. I saw him [00:51:06] post the other day on Instagram. Somebody [00:51:08] shared it with me. While the [00:51:10] blueberries removes heavy metals from your brain was [00:51:12] the post.
I haven't seen one [00:51:14] study on humans that have sh [00:51:16] has shown that. But if [00:51:18] somebody comes across that and they think they're removing [00:51:20] heavy metals from wild blueberries, look, I love wild [00:51:22] blueberries, but it's not pulling [00:51:24] mercury and cavium from [00:51:26] your brain and aluminum at all. [00:51:28] Right? Can
Dave: I
Ben: be really [00:51:30] controversial?
You, you always are. Go for [00:51:32] it.
Dave: I used to love wild blueberries, [00:51:34] but how? I don't,
Ben: ah, why, why is that? [00:51:36]
Dave: Because they're [00:51:38] moderate and sometimes even high [00:51:40] oxalate food. And organic [00:51:42] blueberries are not, because all [00:51:44] plants, even coffee, they [00:51:46] increase the amount of protective [00:51:48] compounds they make based on the amount of [00:51:50] predation and stress they are.
Right. [00:51:52] So you have a drought, you [00:51:54] have fungus in, in the soil or [00:51:56] on the plant. You have insect threats. [00:51:58] The more of those there are, [00:52:00] the more, even just big temperature [00:52:02] variations, the more the plant becomes [00:52:04] protective and the more protective sometimes. [00:52:06] Okay. It makes more nicotine, it makes more [00:52:08] caffeine, it makes more polyphenols.
Ben: Mm-hmm.
Dave: But [00:52:10] it turns out blueberries in addition to more [00:52:12] polyphenols when they're wild, they also make a lot [00:52:14] more oxalate.
Ben: Hmm.
Dave: And I, [00:52:16] I've found that when I. [00:52:18] Carefully pay [00:52:20] attention to oxalate. I [00:52:22] have zero pain in my [00:52:24] body and what's really interesting [00:52:26] is Viome picks [00:52:28] up oxalate sensitivity for me, [00:52:30] not based on my gut bacteria alone, but [00:52:32] based on, uh, looking at my [00:52:34] mitochondrial function, things like that.
So different [00:52:36] people have different levels of sensitivity to [00:52:38] oxalate. So for me, I tested [00:52:40] a whole bunch of blueberries that are wild versus [00:52:42] organic. And my test is where I've [00:52:44] had joint replacement or joint [00:52:46] repair surgery from an old yoga [00:52:48] injury. It either hurts or it doesn't based on my oxalate [00:52:50] intake.
Ben: Interesting.
Dave: So [00:52:52] blueberries are great. But [00:52:54] what is the number one thing you believed [00:52:56] about health that you no longer believe after writing? [00:52:58] Metabolic freedom?
Ben: Um, that the [00:53:00] metabolism operates in speed. What does [00:53:02] that mean? The [00:53:04] metabolism doesn't necessarily operate by [00:53:06] fast or slow. It's either [00:53:08] efficient or inefficient.
Dave: Ooh, I [00:53:10] love this. Okay,
Ben: so [00:53:12] there's a study done by Duke University, [00:53:14] 20 21, 8, uh, [00:53:16] 6,800 people in the study [00:53:18] worldwide. Stu worldwide study [00:53:20] involved multiple countries, and it [00:53:22] looked at. In these thousands of [00:53:24] people from age one, [00:53:26] Dave, all the way to age 95, and [00:53:28] everybody in between using a, uh, [00:53:30] gold standard for metabolism testing if [00:53:32] it was a urine test measuring their [00:53:34] metabolic rate and their metabolism.
[00:53:36] And the study showed that between [00:53:38] ages 20 and 60, [00:53:40] there were no significant [00:53:42] changes in the metabolism whatsoever [00:53:44] in the speed in, in [00:53:46] either slow or fast because a lot of people [00:53:48] are using an excuse, oh, I'M [00:53:50] 50. Nothing I can do about my [00:53:52] metabolism. It's slowed down because of age, et [00:53:54] cetera. The study went on to say that [00:53:56] once they reach age [00:53:58] 60 and and, and [00:54:00] beyond, there's a 0.7% [00:54:02] decline in metabolic [00:54:04] efficiency every year after age 60.
But [00:54:06] here's the reason why you're gonna [00:54:08] love this. It said, the reason why [00:54:10] we see this decline is loss of [00:54:12] muscle mass. Right. [00:54:14] So if you preserve your lean muscle [00:54:16] mass, build it, preserve it. If you're under [00:54:18] 60 or if you're over 60, you start building it. [00:54:20] You could be 95 years old [00:54:22] with the same metabolism as when you were [00:54:24] 25 years old.
It's not about [00:54:26] speed. And on top of that, [00:54:28] the animals in the [00:54:30] wildlife that have the fastest metabolism [00:54:32] have the shortest lifespan. So it's not [00:54:34] about speeding it up, it's not about fixing [00:54:36] a slow metabolism, it's about having a [00:54:38] flexible, efficient [00:54:40] metabolism. That's something that I didn't believe [00:54:42] before.
Dave: It is so cool to hear [00:54:44] you say that it's metabolic [00:54:46] efficiency.
How good of a job [00:54:48] do you [00:54:50] do of turning 30 pounds of air and some [00:54:52] food into heat, [00:54:54] electricity, and other building blocks? Right. [00:54:56] If you're good at that, you're gonna [00:54:58] live a long time. And if you're bad at that, [00:55:00] it's not gonna work. That's right. [00:55:02] And when you say things like turtles with a [00:55:04] slow metabolism, halibut, some of [00:55:06] these long, long lived species, they have [00:55:08] very slow metabolism lobsters too.
Yeah. Okay. [00:55:10] Let's get a little bit [00:55:12] controversial.
Ben: Okay,
Dave: let's
Ben: go, [00:55:14]
Dave: doesn't it then follow that You should [00:55:16] lower your metabolic grade. Like [00:55:18] maybe keep your body temperature down to 94 [00:55:20] degrees, like somebody in the
Ben: [00:55:22] space that we know. Oh,
Dave: no, Brian's been on me. Okay. [00:55:24] I'm talking about Brian Johnson. Okay. Uh, and [00:55:26] Brian's a friend.
And I [00:55:28] look, we need lots of, lots of people in [00:55:30] longevity. Yeah. And you know, I, I [00:55:32] love his rigor. I don't agree with all of his conclusions. [00:55:34] Uh, but that's okay. I probably don't agree with all of yours either. [00:55:36] It's not about a green day. Yeah, I know exactly. I can be friends [00:55:38] with people who even vote differently than [00:55:40] me.
That's, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I, [00:55:42] I, I'm not sure that voting changes [00:55:44] anything, so like, [00:55:46] whatever. I'm having lunch with my sister after this. Yeah. [00:55:48] She's
Ben: a hardcore liberal, by
Dave: the
Ben: way. Exactly. And I love
Dave: [00:55:50] her and she loves me. Yeah. And thank [00:55:52] you for being an adult. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Right. [00:55:54] So, so Brian, love [00:55:56] you brother.
Uh, and sometimes you're [00:55:58] fucking weird and so am I. And that's all [00:56:00] good. It's
Ben: also what makes you and him brilliant [00:56:02] too.
Dave: And you,
Ben: man. Thank you. [00:56:04] Thank you.
Dave: Now.
Ben: [00:56:06] Should we slow down our metabolic s then likestyle? [00:56:08] Should we? Exactly. No, because it's not about [00:56:10] speed, it's about efficiency. [00:56:12] So no, we shouldn't we [00:56:14] know the Biosphere two project.
Do you remember [00:56:16] that, that study? Absolutely. They controlled every [00:56:18] calorie for uh, uh, I think it [00:56:20] was two years, or it was over a year.
Dave: I met someone [00:56:22] who was in that.
Ben: Oh, did you? Okay. So [00:56:24] what ended up happening? Yeah. They activated their [00:56:26] sirtuins, their longevity genes, the [00:56:28] FOXO genes, and it showed these [00:56:30] biomarkers of longevity [00:56:32] are, are activated.
Mm-hmm. What? Great. But what [00:56:34] happened to their organs? What happened to their quality of [00:56:36] life? Their organs shrunk, their thyroid slowed [00:56:38] down, their testosterone plummeted. [00:56:40] Their quality of life was, [00:56:42] was, uh, decreased. So [00:56:44] yeah, maybe if you find ways to slow your [00:56:46] metabolism down, it might extend your lifespan.
But [00:56:48] will it increase your health [00:56:50] span? No, it's gonna do the opposite. So [00:56:52] I know you're all about health span and lifespan. [00:56:54] Mm-hmm. And I don't think it's about slowing the metabolism [00:56:56] to accomplish both. It,
Dave: it doesn't [00:56:58] seem like that's a good idea [00:57:00] because, you know, metabolic freedom [00:57:02] and metabolic flexibility.[00:57:04]
That means your body can turn [00:57:06] on heat when it needs it. That's right. Right. [00:57:08] And if you're suppressing your [00:57:10] body temperature, I don't think that's a good [00:57:12] thing. For a long time when I was [00:57:14] quite unhealthy with chronic fatigue and all [00:57:16] this in my late [00:57:18] twenties, early thirties, my average [00:57:20] body temperature was 96.8.[00:57:22]
And if you're not from the us, [00:57:24] that's substantially low. Yeah. It's, it [00:57:26] should be 98 6 in Fahrenheit. [00:57:28] And it took me about 10 days [00:57:30] to raise my body temperature [00:57:32] subpoint. And I used a protocol [00:57:34] designed by one of the members of the [00:57:36] Longevity group, uh, that I ran the [00:57:38] nonprofit there in Palo Alto. [00:57:40] He was an industrial control systems engineer.
He goes, [00:57:42] oh, systems work on set points. [00:57:44] Like, like original biohacker thinking. Right? [00:57:46] So it was 10 days, [00:57:48] it was hellish. I [00:57:50] wore parca all the time. I drank [00:57:52] only super hot water. I took [00:57:54] relatively high doses of [00:57:56] thyroid and just sweated my ass off. [00:57:58] Right. And I, I did [00:58:00] that and it was a, a defined protocol and [00:58:02] guys, you probably shouldn't do this without [00:58:04] electrolytes and doctors and all that kind of [00:58:06] stuff.
And at the end of [00:58:08] that, my body temperature [00:58:10] was 98 6 again, and I felt [00:58:12] so much better. And [00:58:14] the reason is that enzymes in the [00:58:16] body only operate within a very [00:58:18] narrow temperature range.
Ben: Hmm.
Dave: So if you [00:58:20] have a fever, some enzymes turn off, some turn [00:58:22] on if you're suppressed, [00:58:24] enzymes turn off. Right. [00:58:26] So I was just wondering [00:58:28] if people are fasting or they're doing cold [00:58:30] plunges, which are things that you write [00:58:32] about in metabolic freedom.
Yeah. [00:58:34] What do you think that's doing to their metabolic [00:58:36] flexibility?
Ben: I think in the right [00:58:38] dosage is incredible if they stay within [00:58:40] the hormetic zone. And in, in your [00:58:42] book, uh, heavily meditated, you talk about the [00:58:44] bicep protocol. Is that what it's called? [00:58:46] Protocol or, yeah, but it's not like
Dave: this
Ben: biceps Yeah.
It's an [00:58:48] intentional stress, right? Correct. Which we'll talk about [00:58:50] next, but as long as you stay within the [00:58:52] hormetic zone with fast fasting is a [00:58:54] stressor. Correct. Doesn't mean it's bad unless you do [00:58:56] too much of it. Cold plunging is a [00:58:58] stressor. All these biohacks are stressors is what it has in [00:59:00] common.
Mm-hmm. If you do too much [00:59:02] fasting, too much cold plunging, then it has a [00:59:04] negative effect. I've seen, I've, I've, [00:59:06] my colleague Dr. Rob Errick, [00:59:08] has three patients [00:59:10] that started doing cold plunging and, and they got [00:59:12] strokes.
Host: Three
Ben: of
Host: them,
Ben: they got strokes. [00:59:14] Strokes, wow. FAFSA, constriction. And they [00:59:16] weren't healthy enough to go in there.
And most people, [00:59:18] you know what's interesting, Dave? I've spoken at [00:59:20] several biohacking conferences. I [00:59:22] haven't had the honor of, of doing yours [00:59:24] yet, but when I talk about [00:59:26] hormesis in our space, you [00:59:28] understand hormesis. I think, I don't [00:59:30] know, 75% of the [00:59:32] people in the biohacking spaces [00:59:34] space talk about hormesis, but don't really [00:59:36] understand it.
Dave: You know, what [00:59:38] they'll say is, dude, what [00:59:40] doesn't kill me makes me stronger [00:59:42] and. Actually, this is true, but [00:59:44] unless it's so, well, it's not true. Okay. Taking a [00:59:46] punch to the face just gives you a [00:59:48] traumatic brain injury. That little bit [00:59:50] of mercury lead and [00:59:52] cyanide did not make you stronger. It is [00:59:54] an idiot's statement, [00:59:56] right?
It it's like, oh, I'm so tough. [00:59:58] And I absolutely believe this when [01:00:00] I was 19 and there's a reason I've had three knee [01:00:02] surgeries before I was 23. Oh. [01:00:04] Because what didn't kill me didn't make me stronger. [01:00:06] It fucked up my knee and I had to fix it. [01:00:08] Right? So like [01:00:10] this isn't about being [01:00:12] indestructible, it's about being flexible.
That [01:00:14] old story, like do you wanna be the oak tree [01:00:16] that cracks in the storm or the willow that [01:00:18] bends? You want to be the willow that bends [01:00:20] and probably grows really quickly when you need to. And [01:00:22] is drought tolerant? Yeah. Which would be [01:00:24] metabolic flexibility, right? That's right. Yeah. [01:00:26] So anyway, so I go, [01:00:28]
Ben: yeah, no, you're right.
And the best way [01:00:30] to, uh, gauge if you are [01:00:32] adapting to these stressors or not. I [01:00:34] think is, is heart rate variability?
Dave: Yes. [01:00:36] Thank you for saying that.
Ben: Yeah. I love [01:00:38] H rv. Mm-hmm. It's something that I have all my, uh, [01:00:40] clients and students track, also [01:00:42] resting heart rate and your sleep. Mm-hmm. And [01:00:44] then also how you feel.
Correct. I, [01:00:46] if you're doing it wrong, doing too much, your h RV [01:00:48] will drop, your resting heart rate will, will [01:00:50] increase, your sleep will be sacrificed, and you're gonna feel [01:00:52] tired and wiped out.
Dave: Those are the [01:00:54] signs that you're over keto. [01:00:56] Mm-hmm. Over fasting, plunging, [01:00:58] over plunging, sauna for [01:01:00] exercising, overheat, all of it.
Yeah. Right. [01:01:02] And it's, it, [01:01:04] people will, will say, what's the number one most [01:01:06] important thing to track? Uh, if you're getting your [01:01:08] data, if usually say HRV or [01:01:10] sleep, what do you say?
Ben: [01:01:12] Oh man, that is tough, Dave. If [01:01:14] we're thinking about. [01:01:16] The stressors in the hormetic zone? I [01:01:18] will say HRV. Okay. But if we're [01:01:20] thinking about just health in general, I will say [01:01:22] deep in REM sleep, sleep in general.[01:01:24]
Dave: Interesting. So amount of deep in rem. [01:01:26]
Ben: Yeah. And then how many times you wake [01:01:28] up throughout the night. Yeah. Okay. But deep in rem. Yeah.
Dave: [01:01:30] What's your target amount for deep in rem?
Ben: [01:01:32] Hour 45 each. Wow. Do you get [01:01:34] that? Yeah. Uh, last night in the [01:01:36] hotel I got in last night to be here with [01:01:38] you, Dave, let's go to the stats here.
I [01:01:40] got two hours and one minute of [01:01:42] REM at hour and 42 of, [01:01:44] of deep. Very nice. So I usually get an [01:01:46] hour half of each on a consistent basis. [01:01:48] Hour and a
Dave: half of each is my goal. Yeah. [01:01:50] I'm usually closer to like an [01:01:52] hour, hour and 15. [01:01:54] Um, unless I, I, I'm [01:01:56] really cautious. I just travel too [01:01:58] much, I think, but Yeah. But I think, think you [01:02:00] also
Ben: spend less time in bed [01:02:02] than I do.
I've heard you say. How [01:02:04] much time do you spend in actual [01:02:06] bed?
Dave: It's under
Ben: seven hours. Yeah. So certainly it's [01:02:08] like eight, usually six and a half. Me, it's like eight, eight and a [01:02:10] half. Right. So that's how I'm, I'm [01:02:12] getting a little bit more deep in rem but I've [01:02:14] also heard you say like, more sleep is also a [01:02:16] sign that your mitochondrial damage.
So it's not [01:02:18] about the quantity, it's about the [01:02:20] quality. It, it's a, it's a tough
Dave: one [01:02:22] because the studies really [01:02:24] do show that people who require [01:02:26] eight hours of sleep to feel good, [01:02:28] they die more of all cause mortality [01:02:30] that people require six and a half, [01:02:32] which is the peak for [01:02:34] longevity. That said, [01:02:36] those studies do not track exercise.[01:02:38]
So if you're. Exercising or [01:02:40] doing other metabolic stressors, you're [01:02:42] going to need more sleep. Yeah.
Ben: And yesterday I [01:02:44] worked out too, so that showed a little bit more [01:02:46] sleep from it. Right? Yeah.
Dave: So I would say you're [01:02:48] shortening your lifespan if you didn't get eight [01:02:50] hours of sleep because you lifted. [01:02:52] Right. And, and, and all [01:02:54] these big data sets, what it [01:02:56] really comes down to usually is toxins and [01:02:58] cumulative life stressors.
So [01:03:00] people with fewer toxins, better [01:03:02] mitochondria require less sleep. [01:03:04] Mm-hmm. Right. So it, it's very [01:03:06] nuanced, but as long as you're getting [01:03:08] those numbers, I'd be very happy with where [01:03:10] your sleep is. Yeah.
Ben: Yeah. Thank you. I'm [01:03:12] happy with it.
Dave: Yeah. I'm kidding. Well, [01:03:14] you're, you're, you are. [01:03:16] You're one of those guys whose [01:03:18] work stands for itself.
You've [01:03:20] experienced obesity mm-hmm. Which is really [01:03:22] important. And you recover mental and it [01:03:24] Yep. You've had the mental issues that come with [01:03:26] it. Right. And [01:03:28] so now you're standing here, you just hit the New [01:03:30] York Times list, you've written a book about metabolic freedom, [01:03:32] what you do and what you teach people.[01:03:34]
And you can be an example of [01:03:36] that, which is fantastic. Thank you [01:03:38] Dave. And I, I, I would [01:03:40] encourage listeners, and you're very [01:03:42] welcome. Look at the people [01:03:44] who are sharing advice with you. If they [01:03:46] are angry, [01:03:48] if they are obese if [01:03:50] there's other things that are just off [01:03:52] about them, that's okay. [01:03:54] Look at the advice they're offering, [01:03:56] and if they're offering advice about the [01:03:58] things they haven't been able to, to [01:04:00] get working on themselves, [01:04:02] that's still okay.
As long as they [01:04:04] will tell you why. Mm. Right. [01:04:06] So you can go to your doctor and your doctor says, well, you should lose [01:04:08] weight. And you're like, Hey, doctor, you're a hundred pounds [01:04:10] overweight. You should lose weight. Why does your advice not [01:04:12] work? And if your doctor looks at you and goes, [01:04:14] I'm gonna fire you as a patient.
[01:04:16] Get, get a new doctor. Yeah. But if your doctor says, you know [01:04:18] what? I have this disre, this [01:04:20] dysfunction, this dysfunction, and I'm [01:04:22] working on 'em and here's my strategy and I know [01:04:24] what's going on and I'm a work in [01:04:26] progress. We are all works in progress. [01:04:28] Mm. Right? And so you can give people [01:04:30] grace for that. And, [01:04:32] uh, that said, [01:04:34] just be discerning.
Right? [01:04:36] So if that, that [01:04:38] vegan is losing their hair and is yelling at [01:04:40] people all the time, like, do you want to be like them? [01:04:42] Right. And yes. Am [01:04:44] I triggering vegans right now? I'm sorry if I am. [01:04:46]
Ben: I don't think they watch your show. [01:04:48] They
Dave: they do. How do they, they, well, half [01:04:50] their energy comes from anger. Right.[01:04:52]
That they, they need, sorry guys. [01:04:54] They need content idea. [01:04:56] I, I was a devout vegan. I, I [01:04:58] only, I only kind of rail and vegan [01:05:00] and vegans and uh, I do it [01:05:02] because I became a vegan for [01:05:04] all the right reasons. Mm-hmm. And. [01:05:06] It trashed me and I, I feel [01:05:08] so bad when I see people doing [01:05:10] that, thinking that they're doing the right [01:05:12] thing.
I know. So me too. I was for a year and a [01:05:14] half. Okay. Yeah. In 2012, we have so much in [01:05:16] common. We do, Dave. Yeah,
Ben: we do. [01:05:18] Cool. The China study fooled me back in [01:05:20] 2012. Me too, man. That
Dave: that book has harmed a lot of [01:05:22] people. Mm-hmm. Well, Ben, [01:05:24] your work stands on its own merits. [01:05:26] Welcome to the New York Times [01:05:28] list. I am so happy for you, [01:05:30] my friend.
Ben: I'm grateful to be a part of the club. [01:05:32] Dave, thank you so much for leading the way, my [01:05:34] friend. Of course.
Dave: Guys, if you like this [01:05:36] episode, you know what to do. You're gonna pick up a [01:05:38] copy of Metabolic Freedom [01:05:40] and heavily meditated, put 'em on the same order, [01:05:42] and then, and I'm really grateful if you do [01:05:44] this, what's gonna happen is [01:05:46] Amazon.
Is [01:05:48] going to show everyone these two books by [01:05:50] themselves, right? And say, look, you [01:05:52] should, if you buy this one, you should buy this one. And [01:05:54] seriously, if you wanna learn how to meditate and your [01:05:56] metabolism doesn't work, guess who controls your [01:05:58] meditation, your mitochondria. And [01:06:00] if you wanna learn how [01:06:02] to have metabolic flexibility, even if you [01:06:04] eat the right stuff and your mind is tweaked, [01:06:06] it's not gonna work.
So you gotta do both. [01:06:08] See you next time [01:06:10] on the Human Upgrade [01:06:12] [01:06:14] Podcast.