Dave: [00:00:00] Lipopolysaccharides are bacterial [00:00:02] toxins that are made in your [00:00:04] gut. You have leaky gut. They get through, they [00:00:06] inflame everything, including the
Greg: joints. Your joints can [00:00:08] be insulin resistant too, and can have [00:00:10] issues managing blood sugar just like your [00:00:12] brain could. Joints tend to become more and [00:00:14] more insulin resistant and [00:00:16] becomes harder and harder.
As [00:00:18] they get older,
Speaker: Dr. Greg is an [00:00:20] expert when it comes to the fields of [00:00:22] longevity, of sly [00:00:24] cells, of regenerative [00:00:26] medicine. You're gonna love this episode.
Greg: [00:00:28] There's no medical doctor [00:00:30] that can do imaging on your knee [00:00:32] and a hundred percent accurately predict what [00:00:34] your experience of pain or [00:00:36] comfort, or other things in your need
Dave: be.
[00:00:38] If your blood sugar's high because you have [00:00:40] insulin resistance, that's gonna gly your [00:00:42] collagen, which makes it dysfunctional and [00:00:44] makes it create inflammatory molecules, and you're [00:00:46] gonna have CRE joints. That hurt. [00:00:48] Can you actually reverse [00:00:50] joint damage or are you just slowing [00:00:52] down the inevitable? [00:00:54] You are listening to the Human [00:00:56] Upgrade with Dave Asprey.[00:00:58] [00:01:00]
Greg, you've [00:01:02] participated in 30 [00:01:04] published papers in the [00:01:06] field of aging. Based on [00:01:08] everything you've seen is joint pain, [00:01:10] a symptom of aging [00:01:12] or something else?
Greg: I would say like [00:01:14] most things, it's a symptom of something [00:01:16] else. Even going back to your book, you know, [00:01:18] your brilliant book, headstrong, right? Like there's a [00:01:20] lot going on with mitochondria [00:01:22] that then translates into [00:01:24] poor joint function for sure.
[00:01:26] Zombie cells, which you and I have talked about in the [00:01:28] past, and other clear link [00:01:30] to, you know, joint discomfort, joint [00:01:32] issues. So
Dave: I started getting [00:01:34] creaky knees when I was 14. And they would [00:01:36] literally make a creaky feeling like, [00:01:38] and, and it wouldn't quite make a sound, [00:01:40] but I could feel them gripping
Greg: [00:01:42] what's going on in there.
So the [00:01:44] joint structure is, I think, you know, like most [00:01:46] things, once you start to get smarter [00:01:48] about it, it's super. Interesting, [00:01:50] complicated, but you know, you have [00:01:52] cartilage, you know, so collagen, which [00:01:54] you've been a proponent of way before the [00:01:56] herd, so to speak, is an important molding [00:01:58] block. But then you have synovial [00:02:00] fluid, so the lubricating [00:02:02] fluid that, um, does a [00:02:04] lot.
You know, there's places that have [00:02:06] pain receptors is others that don't [00:02:08] within kind of the, the, the [00:02:10] knee overall structure. Um, but [00:02:12] that. Creaking. I mean, I [00:02:14] usually think in medicine you'd call that [00:02:16] crepitus and that can [00:02:18] happen really young. I remember, you [00:02:20] know, when I was a naturopathic student [00:02:22] 32 years [00:02:24] ago, I had a fair amount of crepitus.[00:02:26]
And I think some of that [00:02:28] is almost like cracking your knuckles, [00:02:30] right? There's not necessarily a [00:02:32] physiological deterioration going [00:02:34] on, but there can be, can be like a, you know, [00:02:36] a early sign [00:02:38] that something's not quite right there.
Dave: I [00:02:40] did notice it correlated with [00:02:42] hydration, which would be [00:02:44] drying out of cartilage [00:02:46] probably and much, much later in [00:02:48] life.
It's also based on uric [00:02:50] acid crystal formation, [00:02:52] or oxalate crystal [00:02:54] formation, or just straight up [00:02:56] damage to the cartilage, which can come from [00:02:58] high blood sugar levels. Probably all of those [00:03:00] are signs of metabolic dysfunction, which [00:03:02] are signs of aging, right.
Greg: [00:03:04] And then you also have things like Gly, [00:03:06] glycation of collagen, which you would know about, I'm [00:03:08] sure some of your listeners [00:03:10] would too, that you know [00:03:12] that that increases you.
[00:03:14] Glycated hemoglobin right is a, a marker [00:03:16] for long-term blood sugar [00:03:18] regulation, but you can gly [00:03:20] glycation cartilage, collagen, other [00:03:22] things, which, you know, really impacts our [00:03:24] joints tremendously [00:03:26] as we get older.
Dave: Okay, so if your [00:03:28] blood sugar's high because you have insulin [00:03:30] resistance, most likely, or you see a lot of [00:03:32] sugar that's gonna glyc your [00:03:34] collagen, which makes it dysfunctional and makes [00:03:36] it create inflammatory molecules, and you're gonna [00:03:38] have creaky joints that hurt.
Greg: [00:03:40] Yeah. The other thing that's interesting with, [00:03:42] um, like you would know [00:03:44] glucosamine, right? That's been [00:03:46] again, three decades of being used for [00:03:48] joint support, but almost no [00:03:50] oral glucosamine can make it [00:03:52] into. Um, like cartilage [00:03:54] tissue, the chondrocytes to make new [00:03:56] cartilage. And really it's [00:03:58] in part because it's not great [00:04:00] bioavailability.
It's a polar [00:04:02] molecule, but it also competes with [00:04:04] glucose for the receptor to be [00:04:06] taken into joint [00:04:08] tissues. And, you know, just think of all the, [00:04:10] the people in our society that struggle [00:04:12] with. Blood sugar regulation [00:04:14] issues. So long story short for [00:04:16] listeners, your joints can be insulin resistant [00:04:18] too and have, can have issues [00:04:20] managing blood sugar just like your brain [00:04:22] could.
Dave: I noticed when I was about [00:04:24] 16 and I was used to having really [00:04:26] painful knees and I was diagnosed [00:04:28] as having arthritis when I was [00:04:30] 14, and I was really exciting. [00:04:32] If I took glucosamine HCL, [00:04:34] my knee pain was way better. If I [00:04:36] took glucosamine sulfate, nothing [00:04:38] happened. Is there a difference between the two [00:04:40] forms?
Greg: So I think historically the [00:04:42] glucosamine sulfate has been [00:04:44] the more widely used and more widely [00:04:46] studied. Have you ever heard of the [00:04:48] gut joint axis?
Dave: [00:04:50] Absolutely. Tell me
Greg: more. Yeah, so the, I [00:04:52] mean, listeners know there's the gut brain [00:04:54] axis, but there's gut muscle axis and gut [00:04:56] skin axis, and there's a gut [00:04:58] joint, a axis, an old time nature [00:05:00] pass, which would've been my mentors, [00:05:02] you know, very much [00:05:04] focused on treating the gut, treating the liver [00:05:06] as.
The foundation [00:05:08] for almost whatever, ail their [00:05:10] patients. The gut joint [00:05:12] axis is just this same idea that [00:05:14] things going on in our gut can have [00:05:16] widespread impact, [00:05:18] including on our joint tissues. [00:05:20] And I. One of the mechanisms [00:05:22] is the, the immune system. [00:05:24] Another would be things like [00:05:26] lipopolysaccharides, right?
That are escaping the [00:05:28] gut through a leaky gut, [00:05:30] getting to our joints and causing issues. [00:05:32] And my guess is that [00:05:34] maybe for you, the HCL part [00:05:36] was. Important back then, right? [00:05:38] Just 'cause HCL stomach acid, [00:05:40] that, that maybe that it wasn't [00:05:42] the glucosamine as much as the little bit of [00:05:44] HCL helping you break [00:05:46] down things in your diet that probably weren't great [00:05:48] for you at the time.
Dave: You [00:05:50] could be onto something there. I had been on [00:05:52] antibiotics once a month [00:05:54] for about a week every month for [00:05:56] years because of. Chronic [00:05:58] sinusitis and strep throat, which was caused [00:06:00] ultimately by toxic mold. So that [00:06:02] meant I did have a leaky gut. And [00:06:04] we know that lipopolysaccharides or [00:06:06] LPSs are major [00:06:08] aging molecules, bacterial [00:06:10] toxins that are made in your gut, [00:06:12] either at low levels or high levels.
If you have leaky [00:06:14] gut, they get through, they inflame everything, [00:06:16] including the joints. So I know I had that [00:06:18] going on and. I did [00:06:20] notice when I had a bad gut, my joints [00:06:22] hurt more. So I had basically [00:06:24] inflammatory gut stuff causing some [00:06:26] of my joint issues and having [00:06:28] more stomach acid would probably help. [00:06:30] Um, so good [00:06:32] theory here.
What else? If, if [00:06:34] someone's, let's say under [00:06:36] 30 and they haven't injured [00:06:38] their joints, but their joints are hurting all the time, [00:06:40] if you were to just close your eyes and say, [00:06:42] you know, in order of likelihood, here's [00:06:44] the top five things causing joint pain, what would [00:06:46] it be?
Greg: Number one would be diet [00:06:48] that I believe most of [00:06:50] us have, you know, for a lack of a better [00:06:52] way to describe it, one or more kryptonite, [00:06:54] foods that we feel in our [00:06:56] joints when we have those, you know, nightshades [00:06:58] classically in, you know, [00:07:00] naturopathic wisdom.
We're wanting, you know, [00:07:02] gluten for many, many people. [00:07:04] Can be won even if they're not [00:07:06] celiac. So, you know, it's why [00:07:08] elimination diets or, you know, [00:07:10] cleaning up our diet, doing some of the [00:07:12] recommendations that you've championed over [00:07:14] close to 20 years [00:07:16] can make such a profound and almost [00:07:18] immediate impact on joint tissue.
So [00:07:20] diet would be for sure, [00:07:22] number one, number [00:07:24] two. There's, um, Lisa [00:07:26] Feldman Barrett, who I'm a big fan of [00:07:28] in her book seven and a Half [00:07:30] Lessons About the Brain. I think it [00:07:32] was lesson five, had to do with, you know, [00:07:34] our social brain and [00:07:36] said something like, you know, [00:07:38] the best thing for our nervous [00:07:40] system is other human beings.[00:07:42]
The worst thing for [00:07:44] our nervous system is other human [00:07:46] beings and exercise can be like that, [00:07:48] right? If we're exercising correctly, [00:07:50] we absolutely need that [00:07:52] for joints just to get blood [00:07:54] circulation, clean out metabolic ways, you [00:07:56] name it. And if we're [00:07:58] exercising incorrectly, we can be causing. [00:08:00] A lot of problems, especially [00:08:02] tendonitis things, which people often [00:08:04] experience as a a joint [00:08:06] issue.
Dave: So jogging or [00:08:08] cycling excessively or with a seat at [00:08:10] the wrong height or something could easily be a cause of [00:08:12] that pain.
Greg: Yeah, yeah. Repetitive [00:08:14] motion types of things where, you know, [00:08:16] like I. Maybe our, our shoes don't have the [00:08:18] right arch support, or maybe we're [00:08:20] not allowing enough time to recover [00:08:22] or we are doing and [00:08:24] exercising correctly.
But just think [00:08:26] of, you know, your classic tennis elbows [00:08:28] can affect people even at a young age. Okay. [00:08:30] Major. Sometimes
Dave: o [00:08:32] overuse, bad footwear, stuff like that. [00:08:34] Okay. I know I probably had all of the [00:08:36] above there. So I, I, I had been [00:08:38] flatfooted as a kid and. [00:08:40] I remember when I first got [00:08:42] orthotics in my early twenties, I'm [00:08:44] like, you're supposed to be able to walk without it hurting.
Oh [00:08:46] my God. So maybe I'm the worst use [00:08:48] case ever, uh, but [00:08:50] that could be a cause as well. Okay. [00:08:52] Let's fast forward now you're 60. What are [00:08:54] the top five most likely causes of [00:08:56] inflammation in your jaws?
Greg: So [00:08:58] it is just the passage of time, right? [00:09:00] Accumulated, like one of the main [00:09:02] theories of aging is this [00:09:04] idea of damage accumulation [00:09:06] over time.
So by 60, I'm for [00:09:08] listeners, I'm early sixties, right? That would [00:09:10] be you know, we're working against that. But [00:09:12] then within that framework you [00:09:14] have the hallmarks of aging, I think is [00:09:16] a really useful paradigm where [00:09:18] you have things like zombie cells [00:09:20] accumulating, which directly [00:09:22] affects our joints. And matter of fact, [00:09:24] it was, among the first [00:09:26] areas, the scientists looking at zombie [00:09:28] cells or senescent cells [00:09:30] investigated, and it's an area I know that [00:09:32] we've studied for Quaia, Seno, lytic. [00:09:34] Product you know, [00:09:36] autophagy becomes important, right? Because, [00:09:38] you know, things get gunked up and we need to [00:09:40] recycle and repair those. Chronic [00:09:42] inflammation is another hallmark of [00:09:44] aging, crazy important for [00:09:46] joints.
Dysbiosis, we've, we've [00:09:48] touched on right, leaky gut and things like that. [00:09:50] So you could almost really go through [00:09:52] most of the hallmarks of aging and [00:09:54] make the case for why they're [00:09:56] impacting chondrocytes. So [00:09:58] synovial sites or these [00:10:00] other. Cell types that we need [00:10:02] to build cartilage and to [00:10:04] create the lubricating fluid in our [00:10:06] joints and to repair tendons and, [00:10:08] um, stem cells.
I didn't mention, but [00:10:10] stem cells play a really important [00:10:12] role in, you know, repairing our [00:10:14] joints.
Dave: Going back to glucosamine for a [00:10:16] minute, um, I mentioned [00:10:18] glucosamine in, I think it was my longevity [00:10:20] book, um, talking about [00:10:22] how it could be beneficial for preventing [00:10:24] one of the seven pillars of aging [00:10:26] because it displaces.[00:10:28]
Um, sugar or no, it just places [00:10:30] some other protein in a, [00:10:32] a complex [00:10:34] glycosylation thing. So there's actually a couple [00:10:36] studies showing that glucosamine might not just [00:10:38] be for joints, but to your point, you can't really [00:10:40] absorb it. Is there like an [00:10:42] intravenous or injectable or rectal or [00:10:44] some weird way of getting glucosamine that [00:10:46] might actually work?
Or is it just [00:10:48] not that good of a thing?
Greg: I honestly don't know. [00:10:50] I know. Doing so [00:10:52] glucosamine is a pretty simple [00:10:54] molecule, used to build more complicated [00:10:56] things, and, and that category are, are [00:10:58] called glycosaminoglycans or [00:11:00] proteoglycans. And there your [00:11:02] hyaluronic acids. And chondroitin. [00:11:04] Sulfates and some of those things have been [00:11:06] used in injected into [00:11:08] joints, especially in veterinary medicine and [00:11:10] horses and other.
Things like [00:11:12] that. You know, human studies, they exist [00:11:14] too. So, but my guess would [00:11:16] be some of the same [00:11:18] limitations. That [00:11:20] cause glucosamine not to [00:11:22] be so great for joints. [00:11:24] Not, it's not that it's bad, it's just not [00:11:26] maybe as effective as people would [00:11:28] believe, is that it's the [00:11:30] joints still need a lot of a TP to do [00:11:32] their work and you know, without [00:11:34] correcting that it becomes hard for [00:11:36] them to work.
Well
Dave: I hadn't thought of that. Thanks [00:11:38] Todd. And upgrade collective for that question. [00:11:40] So I asked my research [00:11:42] assistant while we were doing this, its name [00:11:44] is cha, GBT, by the way. Uh, and [00:11:46] it's like, oh yeah, people do it, but only in [00:11:48] Europe and Asia. They do [00:11:50] intravenous glucosamine, and [00:11:52] they say that it's 800 [00:11:54] milligrams and it bypasses [00:11:56] the poor gut absorption, [00:11:58] and it might have more anti-inflammatory [00:12:00] effects, but it's not that well [00:12:02] studied, and so it, [00:12:04] it lowers inflammatory markers [00:12:06] faster.
So in other words, not worth it.[00:12:08] [00:12:10]
[00:12:12] You looked at more than a hundred [00:12:14] compounds to figure out what should you do for [00:12:16] joints. And I kind of take that personally [00:12:18] because I mentioned all the problems I've had, [00:12:20] um, as a young person [00:12:22] with, uh, with my joints, [00:12:24] and I can do full deep squats. [00:12:26] I can put an ankle behind my head like I've fixed my [00:12:28] joints.
Thank God. And like I, [00:12:30] I'm 52 if you believe the [00:12:32] calendar, which I don't. So it's, [00:12:34] it's, if I could do this, almost anyone [00:12:36] can, given how bad things were for me. So, [00:12:38] so when you came to me and said, look, [00:12:40] you know. We put [00:12:42] together something new for joints with [00:12:44] quaia, I'm like, all right. Like, I gotta look at this stuff [00:12:46] because I take really good care of my joints.
[00:12:48] And I gotta say, you put some stuff in there [00:12:50] that I don't know about, uh, [00:12:52] which is also very unusual. 'cause [00:12:54] like I, I formulate, like I, I work with [00:12:56] you guys. I'm an advisor to Quaia, so I'm [00:12:58] like, why did you do this? How did [00:13:00] you find all of this stuff? [00:13:02] So talk to me about how you [00:13:04] think about [00:13:06] building a joint supplement that isn't like [00:13:08] everything else on the market with, you know, [00:13:10] chondroitin and glucosamine and all the dumb stuff.[00:13:12]
Greg: Yeah, so I, I kind of [00:13:14] refer to those as the usual suspects. You know, [00:13:16] they're widely known, been used, like I [00:13:18] said, for three decades, and you may [00:13:20] not remember this 'cause um, it's going [00:13:22] back almost two years. But, um, I [00:13:24] actually scheduled time with you in the summer [00:13:26] of 2023 to go [00:13:28] over where we were at that point and [00:13:30] what ultimately became joint [00:13:32] health.
And at the time I shared a [00:13:34] spreadsheet where we listed, you know. [00:13:36] Many, many dozens of ingredients. [00:13:38] So just how some of our [00:13:40] research reviews where we'd, you know, [00:13:42] synthesize all of the, [00:13:44] the human animal studies [00:13:46] into very in-depth research [00:13:48] reviews that we never share with anyone outside [00:13:50] of the all inner circle.
Dave: [00:13:52] It, it's cool to be an advisor 'cause you [00:13:54] guys really do research that's. [00:13:56] Just I, stuff I haven't [00:13:58] seen and like this is, this is what I do. So [00:14:00] kudos. Yeah. And but you [00:14:02] had hundreds of ingredients on that, on that thing. Yeah. I [00:14:04] might have added a couple, but I do remember going through [00:14:06] and going, wow, this is exhaustive.
So how, [00:14:08] how do you narrow it down?
Greg: Yeah. [00:14:10] So, I. Really we start [00:14:12] with that big list. Sometimes we find out [00:14:14] things, you know, just in our literature search [00:14:16] that we didn't know about. And then [00:14:18] we read all the research. [00:14:20] At the end of the day, we grade it. So [00:14:22] for like, as an example, [00:14:24] there's a cucumber [00:14:26] extract in KU Health called Cuber up.[00:14:28]
Um, there's another [00:14:30] branded one too that also has [00:14:32] a, a Yuma study and. [00:14:34] We would've read the research [00:14:36] summarized and, and at the end of the day, for [00:14:38] joint health specifically, would we'd give it a [00:14:40] grade and say like, okay, [00:14:42] one is LOL. I can't imagine any [00:14:44] like person that ever read research would, [00:14:46] would pay money for this.
Five would be, [00:14:48] okay, this is a star. This can be a central [00:14:50] thing. And really who people. And [00:14:52] so really when we go [00:14:54] through those a hundred ingredients, [00:14:56] we're looking for things that are five [00:14:58] stars. It's a big plus [00:15:00] when you don't have to take massive number of [00:15:02] capsules to get [00:15:04] the five star result because [00:15:06] especially as people get older, you [00:15:08] know, it's harder sometimes [00:15:10] for people to swallow capsules or swallow [00:15:12] in general.
And then even in [00:15:14] younger biohackers, our, our core [00:15:16] audience, they're already taking a lot of capsules. [00:15:18] So, you know, we wanted things that [00:15:20] were effective and [00:15:22] also ideally at a low amount. [00:15:24] And then we like things that [00:15:26] compliment each other. So L [00:15:28] Carni is an example. There's [00:15:30] animal studies, there's human studies [00:15:32] on that for joints.
You almost never hear about it. [00:15:34] It's not a usual suspect for that. [00:15:36] But it does some [00:15:38] things that nothing else in the formula did. [00:15:40] And one of those is [00:15:42] helping turn fats into fuel [00:15:44] for a TP. Right. And [00:15:46] I mentioned. Earlier [00:15:48] that our joints use a lot of a [00:15:50] TP to make collagen, [00:15:52] to build proteins, to [00:15:54] make the lubricating [00:15:56] fluid and the molecules like hy [00:15:58] hyaluronic acid that give it, it's [00:16:00] um, you know, like it's cushiony [00:16:02] effect.
And the [00:16:04] joints tend to become more and [00:16:06] more insulin resistant and it [00:16:08] becomes harder and harder as they get [00:16:10] older for them to turn sugar.
Dave: You can [00:16:12] have insulin resistance inside [00:16:14] your. Your cartilage,
Greg: not [00:16:16] cartilage. Cartilage has really poor [00:16:18] white blood flow.
Dave: Yeah.
Greg: To
Dave: it. Okay.
Greg: [00:16:20] But the joint capsule [00:16:22] itself, like the capsule.
Okay. All the [00:16:24] other
Dave: surfaces, all right.
Greg: Yeah. To [00:16:26] 'cause cvi, syn, [00:16:28] cytes would make meat molecules like [00:16:30] hyaluronic acid and [00:16:32] require a TP to do that. [00:16:34] The chondrocytes that would make [00:16:36] the things like [00:16:38] collagen or other longer [00:16:40] glycosaminoglycans we're also using a TP. [00:16:42] So, and sugar would be, you [00:16:44] know, their, like the brain, their [00:16:46] preferred fuel, they just get less [00:16:48] good at using that as fuel to make a [00:16:50] TP as we age or as we [00:16:52] get unhealthy.
Right? Like metabolic [00:16:54] obesity would be the same [00:16:56] thing. And so one of the things I thought [00:16:58] was cool when I was reading the human [00:17:00] studies on. [00:17:02] Carnitine for [00:17:04] joints is that [00:17:06] they emphasized [00:17:08] overweight or obese women typically [00:17:10] middle age more, and it can kind of [00:17:12] start putting the pieces together That [00:17:14] carnitine might've helped them [00:17:16] disproportionately more than it would've an athlete [00:17:18] because they're likely to have more issues with [00:17:20] blood sugar.
Dave: That makes so much [00:17:22] sense and. [00:17:24] O Carnitine or acetylcarnitine has [00:17:26] been a part of my cognitive enhancement in [00:17:28] longevity stack since I was in my mid twenties when I have [00:17:30] really bad brain fog because there's so many [00:17:32] studies, but it's like the least sexy [00:17:34] mitochondrial nutrient there is. Like it's less [00:17:36] sexy than coq 10, but it [00:17:38] really works, and using it for joints is [00:17:40] really innovative.
So I was unaware of that. [00:17:42] So that's, that's a super [00:17:44] cool thing. And I [00:17:46] have been using the [00:17:48] new quality of joint health thing. You know, [00:17:50] it's kind of cool to go from hundreds of things on a [00:17:52] spreadsheet a few years ago, [00:17:54] um, down to a final product and to get to [00:17:56] be an early adopter of it. [00:17:58] And my joints feel really good.[00:18:00]
There's some other interesting [00:18:02] ingredients in here, like the cucumber [00:18:04] extract. That's one where I'm like, where did you [00:18:06] come up with this? I mean, I've seen [00:18:08] sea cucumbers for collagen, but [00:18:10] cucumber extract. What is like, isn't [00:18:12] that some kind of lectin food [00:18:14] or something? What do cucumbers do? Like [00:18:16] I thought they were for hydration.
If [00:18:18] anything, they're kind of a, a non-food.
Greg: [00:18:20] Yeah. cucumbers have [00:18:22] been used traditionally, actually even [00:18:24] within Ayurveda. For a [00:18:26] variety of purposes. And it turns [00:18:28] out cucumbers have these really [00:18:30] special, they're called amino [00:18:32] sugars with an I at the beginning [00:18:34] instead of amino. And [00:18:36] those seem to have a really [00:18:38] strong gut joint axis [00:18:40] impact.
So, there's not been [00:18:42] nearly the amount of research 'cause [00:18:44] they're a newer [00:18:46] innovation, but they seem to do a really [00:18:48] good job on, on what I would say is [00:18:50] neutralizing LPSs [00:18:52] impact. On joints.
Dave: Got it. [00:18:54] So blocking LPSV is some weird [00:18:56] mechanism we may not even understand yet. [00:18:58] Okay.
Greg: Yeah.
Dave: Yeah. [00:19:00] One of the things that Quali [00:19:02] is most known for now is [00:19:04] Quali.
Lytic. Now, [00:19:06] this is one of my favorite cell phones [00:19:08] because you just take it two days a month and [00:19:10] you're done. So it's the least pills of [00:19:12] anything I have to take, and it [00:19:14] works really, really well. [00:19:16] What is the connection between [00:19:18] slys and gut and gut health?
Greg: Well, [00:19:20] senescent cells can accumulate [00:19:22] anywhere and senescent immune [00:19:24] cells.
The, of the [00:19:26] three original types of cells [00:19:28] thought to be most prone to [00:19:30] becoming senescent cells or zombie [00:19:32] cells, fibroblasts were [00:19:34] one. So those are our connective tissue, and there'd be [00:19:36] a lot of fibroblasts in our skin and our [00:19:38] joints. As an example, immune [00:19:40] cells were number two and [00:19:42] endothelial cells.
We're number three, [00:19:44] and somewhere 65 ish [00:19:46] percent of our immune system resides in [00:19:48] or adjacent to our gut. So it's [00:19:50] just really you know, subject [00:19:52] to getting stressed out. I, I [00:19:54] generally think in a simple sense of [00:19:56] senescent cells, of cells that were [00:19:58] so stressed that they had no [00:20:00] choice but to become [00:20:02] senescent.
And, you know, without [00:20:04] question, our diet and other [00:20:06] things, our GI tract is, [00:20:08] you know, the front lines for being stressed [00:20:10] by at least part of the environment.
Dave: [00:20:12] Okay, so gut stress, [00:20:14] LPS, mitochondrial [00:20:16] stress, joint stress. Then you [00:20:18] get zombie cells in your joints and then you [00:20:20] gotta get rid of 'em. And so you can [00:20:22] use the qua lytic for that.[00:20:24]
What's different [00:20:26] between that and what you put [00:20:28] in the joint health formula that just came out? [00:20:30]
Greg: Yeah. Think of the qua [00:20:32] lytic as something to help [00:20:34] remove the cells that are interfering. [00:20:36] With joints doing their best, but [00:20:38] then joints need a lot of support [00:20:40] to do the, the building up and [00:20:42] repairing and making new cells and, [00:20:44] you know, support for the different [00:20:46] structures that they make.
So, [00:20:48] um, one of the ingredients in quiet joint [00:20:50] health is called OVO mat, which is a, [00:20:52] a. Unna [00:20:54] collagen eggshell membrane [00:20:56] from a company in Europe [00:20:58] called Egg novo. That [00:21:00] supplies both unna collagen and [00:21:02] by under natured what I [00:21:04] mean is it the collagen would still [00:21:06] be in its complicated biological [00:21:08] shape as opposed to [00:21:10] collagen that's hydrolyzed or made [00:21:12] into peptides.
Both can work, [00:21:14] but the unaged works at a much [00:21:16] lower amount for [00:21:18] things like joint issues. Um, but then [00:21:20] that, that also has. [00:21:22] Elastin, which is like a, [00:21:24] a stretchy compound and [00:21:26] hyaluronic acid, which you can think of as your [00:21:28] goo molecule and [00:21:30] precursors to, [00:21:32] to things like a small amount of [00:21:34] glucosamine and chondroitin and, and [00:21:36] those other glycosaminoglycans.
So it's [00:21:38] just a really versatile [00:21:40] nutritional building block. And [00:21:42] one of the things that really [00:21:44] originally grabbed my. [00:21:46] Attention with OVO Met was [00:21:48] meeting people from Ag Novo [00:21:50] and them mentioning that several [00:21:52] European, well, specifically La Liga, [00:21:54] the Spanish professional soccer [00:21:56] team or league had, you know, two [00:21:58] teams were taking their [00:22:00] product.
And I was like, well, why would they be taking it? [00:22:02] And they said, oh, like some of our studies [00:22:04] have looked at, uh, in one case, [00:22:06] CrossFit athletes mid [00:22:08] thirties, and over the [00:22:10] course of eight weeks, their, their [00:22:12] tendon strength and stiffness [00:22:14] degraded. Which then, you know, [00:22:16] makes it harder to sprint, harder to have [00:22:18] power and force through our [00:22:20] Achilles, and we end up with [00:22:22] micro tears that can subject us to [00:22:24] a rule, thematic injury.
And [00:22:26] what that eight week study did [00:22:28] in the CrossFit, CrossFit athletes [00:22:30] taking the over mat, it [00:22:32] maintained the right amount of stiffness in the [00:22:34] tendons through that and the attendance through that intense [00:22:36] exercise. Period where the placebo [00:22:38] group at weakened, progressively
Dave: [00:22:40] eggshell membrane is another one of those [00:22:42] weird ingredients like that.
It [00:22:44] doesn't trigger egg allergies for [00:22:46] people, does it?
Greg: I've never heard of that. In [00:22:48] part because it's such, we don't, we [00:22:50] wouldn't normally eat that because [00:22:52] it's. But it's [00:22:54] about roughly 90% [00:22:56] proteins, but the collagen kind of [00:22:58] things. And these, you know, like [00:23:00] elastin, like the same things that [00:23:02] make up our skin and joints.
Dave: What a [00:23:04] lot of people don't understand in the [00:23:06] world of collagen. And I think really deep [00:23:08] on this before I, I went on the Dr. Oz [00:23:10] show. He has incredibly [00:23:12] strong diligence before you can say anything. Like [00:23:14] everything is triple checked [00:23:16] and. People [00:23:18] like to say, oh, if you eat something with collagen, you [00:23:20] just digest it and it's dumb.
You should just [00:23:22] eat jello. But it doesn't work like [00:23:24] that because when the [00:23:26] body detects different types of [00:23:28] collagen in circulation, it means the [00:23:30] collagen's not in the joint and it says, [00:23:32] oh, maybe I should turn on [00:23:34] healing in the joint. So [00:23:36] the fact that there's such strong [00:23:38] clinical evidence for this, my guess is that some of the [00:23:40] proteins on the surface of the [00:23:42] oin that you're using are [00:23:44] probably signaling to the body that it's [00:23:46] time to take a look at [00:23:48] Collagen Health and then fix it.
Greg: [00:23:50] Yeah, there, there's a, a thought that [00:23:52] the under denatured collagens [00:23:54] really work more through the gut [00:23:56] joint axis and signaling [00:23:58] that occurs that way than [00:24:00] as the actual building block. And it's [00:24:02] why with the eggshell membrane it's only [00:24:04] at 300 milligrams. You don't need nearly as [00:24:06] much when you have these [00:24:08] undenatured collagen molecules [00:24:10] compared to, you know, the collagen I would [00:24:12] put in my.
Coffee or I'm, I'm [00:24:14] doing a scoop of it. So kind of working in [00:24:16] different ways, but both can be [00:24:18] useful and both, you know, I think are [00:24:20] important things to have in our diet.
Dave: [00:24:22] You have something else interesting in [00:24:24] there? Tamarind and I [00:24:26] have an unpublished article on [00:24:28] Tamarind, uh, that I just [00:24:30] wrote a couple weeks ago that I'm gonna put out soon.[00:24:32]
What is tamarind and [00:24:34] why would you include an extract of it [00:24:36] in the quality joint formula?
Greg: Yeah, so we [00:24:38] have this ingredient that's called Tam [00:24:40] Aflex. That's a combination of [00:24:42] turmeric and tamarind seeds. [00:24:44] And obviously both have been used in [00:24:46] Ayurveda. I, um, I did a [00:24:48] master's degree in Thai [00:24:50] Thai language culture, but my [00:24:52] focus was on medical and nutritional [00:24:54] anthropology at the time.
[00:24:56] And, um, tamarind's a really [00:24:58] important flavor. [00:25:00] Compound in Thai cuisine as well. [00:25:02] And um. [00:25:04] So it was embedded in Thai traditional [00:25:06] medicine, which largely they got [00:25:08] from Ayurvedic traditional medicine, [00:25:10] and it just has been [00:25:12] really somewhat overlooked in the [00:25:14] modern world, but it's high in pro [00:25:16] anthocyanins, which are a super [00:25:18] cool and important type of plant [00:25:20] polyphenol.
Usually you think of grape seeds. [00:25:22] As a, a source of those [00:25:24] and that combination [00:25:26] of the turmeric and the, [00:25:28] the tamarind seed extract [00:25:30] has been currently [00:25:32] used in three human studies. The most [00:25:34] recent had about 135 [00:25:36] people. So decent sized [00:25:38] study actually compared it to placebo [00:25:40] and against [00:25:42] turmeric and boswellia [00:25:44] combo and just rocked across [00:25:46] the board.
It was fast acting, [00:25:48] showed lots of benefits within the first [00:25:50] 28 days. Impacted [00:25:52] not only joint health [00:25:54] questionnaires, but range of [00:25:56] motion, knee strength. [00:25:58] Functional tests, like what [00:26:00] happens, you see these a lot in, in [00:26:02] aging studies. You know, things like grip [00:26:04] strength and timed up and go and stair [00:26:06] climbing and um, six minute [00:26:08] walk test.
So they, they used a, they didn't use [00:26:10] grip strength, but they used several of those others [00:26:12] and all of them improved [00:26:14] progressively in the Tamil Flex group. [00:26:16] So I love things like that where, [00:26:18] you know, not only. [00:26:20] Are, you know, like questionnaires [00:26:22] improving, but objective things that track [00:26:24] so much with [00:26:26] longevity are also improving.
[00:26:28] And in a, like, like I said, [00:26:30] a a lot happened within 28 [00:26:32] days in that that particular study, [00:26:34]
Dave: one of the things besides NI change [00:26:36] that really trashes people's joints [00:26:38] is higher oxalate levels in the [00:26:40] body. This is, you know, a plant [00:26:42] toxin. It forms razor sharp calcium crystals [00:26:44] in your joints, and it's the other [00:26:46] kind of gout and the, uh, [00:26:48] major cause of kidney stones actually ahead [00:26:50] of ahead of uric acid.[00:26:52]
So. It's an issue [00:26:54] and one of the things that breaks it up [00:26:56] is tamarind. Hmm. [00:26:58] Uh, so I don't know if tamarind [00:27:00] extract directly pulls it [00:27:02] out, but it's, tamarind [00:27:04] paste is one of the things you can use. And it's [00:27:06] probably through, um, the [00:27:08] amount of tar taric acid that's in it. [00:27:10] Um, but it's, it, it's an [00:27:12] interesting thing that could be part of it or it could [00:27:14] be that it's a gut bacteria [00:27:16] interaction.
Do you think you know how it works?
Greg: The, [00:27:18] when mechanistically, when they've [00:27:20] done studies on this, Tam [00:27:22] aflex, it, it really, they would think of it as [00:27:24] doing three main things, the cyclo [00:27:26] oxidase, lap oxidase, family [00:27:28] of enzymes. It, it helps to [00:27:30] normalize the activity of those, which is [00:27:32] super important for you know, [00:27:34] getting the inflammatory [00:27:36] balance of things back in [00:27:38] balance.
It does a lot to slow [00:27:40] down the molecules [00:27:42] like Metallo, [00:27:44] Metallo, proteinases that break down. Collagen [00:27:46] that these are like in the extracellular [00:27:48] matrix, so it tends to [00:27:50] normalize those as well. And [00:27:52] then they've not looked at this, [00:27:54] but just from a naturopathic, you know, [00:27:56] historical use perspective, [00:27:58] the turmeric and [00:28:00] Boswell would both be, you know, things [00:28:02] that have gut activity.
So I, [00:28:04] I would be shocked if there's not [00:28:06] some gut joint axis [00:28:08] benefits going on as well.
Dave: Totally, [00:28:10] totally believe you there. It's, [00:28:12] Boswell is one of my favorite ingredients. [00:28:14] And. It, it's, [00:28:16] it's so powerful and I've been using [00:28:18] Boswellia for 20 years [00:28:20] because I don't like having [00:28:22] sore joints and it's [00:28:24] exceptionally rare, like an [00:28:26] injury situation where I did something weird [00:28:28] in a sport, otherwise I don't [00:28:30] have joint pain, and, and it's been so [00:28:32] liberating for me to get there.[00:28:34]
I take regular [00:28:36] anti-inflammatories and I've switched to using [00:28:38] colia for the joint specifically now that [00:28:40] this is available. And then I also [00:28:42] have to limit the foods that I know give me [00:28:44] arthritis. And the most painful [00:28:46] is, I love hot peppers. I don't eat [00:28:48] them. They're a nightshade. If I eat nightshade, my [00:28:50] arthritis comes back.
I don't eat nightshade. It doesn't, [00:28:52] and that doesn't appear to be a [00:28:54] genetic thing or a gut bacteria thing that appears [00:28:56] to be, or sorry, that does appear to be a genetic [00:28:58] thing. It doesn't appear to be something [00:29:00] that's epigenetic like it. It. It's [00:29:02] either you have it or you don't, which [00:29:04] sucks. 'cause I don't want it.
Is there something [00:29:06] that people who are sensitive to nightshades [00:29:08] could do? So they could still [00:29:10] eat jalapenos until they cry without having sore [00:29:12] joints?
Greg: Yeah, that's a great question. I don't [00:29:14] have a solution. I mean, things [00:29:16] I would experiment with [00:29:18] that I don't have confidence would work, would be [00:29:20] like a brom lane, you know, like a, [00:29:22] yeah.
Oma Lane
Dave: helps to a [00:29:24] certain point and there are lectin blockers [00:29:26] that you can get. You just don't get enough [00:29:28] coverage. So, [00:29:30] that's, that's the problem anyway. I don't think that one's [00:29:32] gonna be solvable without maybe like a [00:29:34] mitochondrial transplant, but I'm up for that.[00:29:36] [00:29:38]
[00:29:40] One of the things that is missing [00:29:42] in the conversation around longevity [00:29:44] is functional movement or [00:29:46] mobility. Right. You [00:29:48] wanna tell how long someone's gonna live. Well, how [00:29:50] good is your grip strength? That's a function [00:29:52] of joints and muscles. But if your joints [00:29:54] don't work, you can't have strong grip strength.
And the [00:29:56] other one is, can you get up off the ground [00:29:58] without pushing down with your hands? And how long does it take [00:30:00] you? Right. These are [00:30:02] major things that are more predictive than some really [00:30:04] expensive tests, to be honest. And that [00:30:06] means mobility's important. [00:30:08] Why is mobility just [00:30:10] overlooked as something as important as VO [00:30:12] two max?
Greg: Yeah. Often these tests [00:30:14] don't sound like they're particularly [00:30:16] hard, right? Oh, like. Grip strength, or [00:30:18] you've probably seen recently there [00:30:20] was the ten second [00:30:22] stand balance test that had, [00:30:24] um, real long lasting [00:30:26] predictive value and [00:30:28] the things like that [00:30:30] balance test grip strength, [00:30:32] it's, it's tendons and [00:30:34] neuromuscular, right?
So our brains involved are [00:30:36] structures involved, like [00:30:38] nervous system integrity is [00:30:40] involved, right? And, and so they, [00:30:42] they seem simple, but it takes a [00:30:44] lot. Of things coordinated to do [00:30:46] those Well, and you know, for [00:30:48] listeners, you know, just [00:30:50] when you have an opportunity or now if the [00:30:52] situations, you know, stand on one, one [00:30:54] leg and you know, balance for [00:30:56] more than 10 seconds, right?
I would guess [00:30:58] most of your listeners can do that, but [00:31:00] many, many people [00:31:02] cannot. And that degrades with the [00:31:04] passing of ears for most people.
Dave: [00:31:06] One of the things that has me really [00:31:08] excited at Upgrade Labs, [00:31:10] we have a piece of tech that [00:31:12] uses AI to do a [00:31:14] functional mobility screen. So you [00:31:16] stand on the AI cheat machine, you're on a [00:31:18] force plate, and it says, you know, put your [00:31:20] shoulder up.
Rotate down, [00:31:22] rotate up, lift up [00:31:24] your hip and do the things and it will [00:31:26] score you. And I've been working on [00:31:28] something in my left hip, [00:31:30] which was my best hip until [00:31:32] like something happened. And [00:31:34] so I'm doing functional recovery on it, [00:31:36] but that AI picked it up [00:31:38] even though I done a bunch of work. So it's [00:31:40] kind of cool now.
Since the [00:31:42] beginning of, of my first book on [00:31:44] biohacking, like how do I teach people [00:31:46] this? And I talk about functional movement and standing on a [00:31:48] box and one arm is longer than the other and all this [00:31:50] crap, unless you're gonna go hire, you [00:31:52] know, Kelly Dart or someone, [00:31:54] or the human garage, or I. [00:31:56] Uh, Aaron Alexander, people who have been on the [00:31:58] show talking about this, you're, [00:32:00] you're just kind of stuck and you get all, oh, that doesn't [00:32:02] work the way it did before, and pretty [00:32:04] soon, your host.
So one [00:32:06] thing would be make sure that you [00:32:08] have some sort of movement [00:32:10] training, but you're not gonna do that [00:32:12] if your joints hurt. So then you [00:32:14] take a lytic once a [00:32:16] month. We know quality of lytic, which [00:32:18] is gonna reduce risk everywhere. [00:32:20] And then I think the quality of [00:32:22] joint health is the best formula that I've [00:32:24] seen in many, many years.[00:32:26]
Uh, for making your [00:32:28] joint stay young, flexible, [00:32:30] because it's a matter of [00:32:32] fascia, muscle, and joint. [00:32:34] And this is addressing the tendons and the [00:32:36] joint and the inflammation. [00:32:38] So you look at this as like a puzzle [00:32:40] piece. How am I going to live for at [00:32:42] least 180 years, walking [00:32:44] around under my own power, doing what I [00:32:46] want to do with a functioning brain?[00:32:48]
And like, okay, ultimately [00:32:50] mitochondria are important. [00:32:52] Inflammation's important mobility [00:32:54] drives both of those, so you [00:32:56] can't sacrifice that. [00:32:58] So this, this is a part of, of my new [00:33:00] regular practice. I'm on my [00:33:02] second bottle of it. Thank you for sending it. [00:33:04]
Greg: Yeah,
Dave: because before I was [00:33:06] trying to put this together with a bunch of single [00:33:08] ingredients and um, [00:33:10] if you're over here, Evan, you see my [00:33:12] supplement room.
Basically it's a [00:33:14] wall of shelves full of all my inventory. [00:33:16] I want to take less pills and the [00:33:18] quality of joint health lets me do that. And [00:33:20] guys, you already know, there's always a [00:33:22] discount whenever someone comes down to talk [00:33:24] about something. Cool. I did happen to [00:33:26] be a part of the invention process of this [00:33:28] one because I'm on Quality's advisory [00:33:30] board.
Uh, so I have [00:33:32] maybe some extra bias towards [00:33:34] it, but I think it's really good. [00:33:36] And of course, just go to qualia [00:33:38] life.com/dave [00:33:40] 15 and they're gonna give you 15% off your [00:33:42] subscription. If this is a thing you [00:33:44] want to get, and if it's not something you want to [00:33:46] get. Don't get it. You [00:33:48] just learned a whole bunch about joint inflammation and [00:33:50] longevity anyway, and that's totally cool.[00:33:52]
I wanna ask you some more questions if you're up for [00:33:54] it.
Greg: Oh, absolutely.
Dave: [00:33:56] How do you quantify joint aging? [00:33:58]
Greg: I don't know that there's a great, [00:34:00] I, I'm in the research I [00:34:02] read, the most widely used [00:34:04] assessment for joints is just a [00:34:06] questionnaire called the WOMAC [00:34:08] questionnaire, which stands, the Western [00:34:10] Ontario, blah, blah, blah.
[00:34:12] And, uh, but it's just a, it's a, you know, [00:34:14] asks about. Activities of daily [00:34:16] living, pain, [00:34:18] flexibility, stiffness, things like that. [00:34:20] And, and that will give a [00:34:22] numerical grade. So I think that's always [00:34:24] a great. Entry [00:34:26] point. You know, if you're, that even [00:34:28] has interpretation, meaning like [00:34:30] certain score ranges would move from [00:34:32] mild issue to moderate issue to [00:34:34] really severe issue.
So that would be a [00:34:36] way, not the perfect way, [00:34:38] but for listeners. [00:34:40] Quality actually has meaning, uh, you [00:34:42] know, before our supplement [00:34:44] company. And it, it has to do with [00:34:46] your subjective, conscious [00:34:48] experience of some sensory thing. You [00:34:50] know, we usually think of our senses as [00:34:52] vision and you know, the red of [00:34:54] red would be like, you know, maybe [00:34:56] different for you, Dave, than for me.
[00:34:58] But we all have the quality of our [00:35:00] joints going on all the time, right? Like, [00:35:02] there's no. Medical [00:35:04] doctor that can do imaging on your [00:35:06] knee and a hundred percent [00:35:08] accurately predict what your [00:35:10] experience of pain or comfort or [00:35:12] other things in your knee would be. [00:35:14] And I know when we decided to [00:35:16] work on this, one of my hopes is that, [00:35:18] that the quality of people [00:35:20] taking this would change from [00:35:22] maybe less great words to words like [00:35:24] feeling their knees are supportive [00:35:26] and comfortable and [00:35:28] fluid and things like that.[00:35:30]
Now here's a question.
Dave: And this is [00:35:32] something that people have asked me this more than [00:35:34] a few times, can you [00:35:36] actually reverse joint damage [00:35:38] or are you just slowing down the inevitable?
Greg: [00:35:40] So I would my [00:35:42] bias is always argue for the the [00:35:44] possible. I. Right. So [00:35:46] Amen. And so I would argue [00:35:48] for sure we can reverse it.
So as an [00:35:50] example, OMED, I mentioned that [00:35:52] study about their CrossFit, you know, [00:35:54] 37-year-old athletes. They did [00:35:56] another study that was in [00:35:58] sedentary, you know, more elderly [00:36:00] people and their [00:36:02] tendon strength. This was the Achilles [00:36:04] tendon. Um, that they measured [00:36:06] specifically actually [00:36:08] strengthened over the, the course of the [00:36:10] two months, right.
That they, it repaired [00:36:12] things and improved and made it more [00:36:14] healthy. So yeah, for sure. I [00:36:16] think we can do, um, really [00:36:18] at any age we, our body can [00:36:20] repair. So it just needs the right [00:36:22] inputs and we need to get rid [00:36:24] of the things that are gunking it up. [00:36:26] And acting as obstacles.
Dave: I had [00:36:28] been told three different times [00:36:30] in knee surgeries before I was 23, [00:36:32] that your body cannot build new [00:36:34] cartilage in your knees and they could only [00:36:36] repair damage by surgery and [00:36:38] take it out years later.[00:36:40]
There's a study, [00:36:42] actually more than one study out now that [00:36:44] shows that a sham [00:36:46] repair. Of your [00:36:48] cartilage has the same amount of pain [00:36:50] reduction as actually fixing the cartilage. [00:36:52] So they took people and [00:36:54] sometimes they did a cartilage repair. Other times they [00:36:56] just cut the knee open and then sewed it [00:36:58] back up.
And it had [00:37:00] exactly the same effect on reducing pain. [00:37:02] So there's something else [00:37:04] going on in there. And [00:37:06] then at the [00:37:08] Nonprofit Longevity Group that I used [00:37:10] to run, we had a new member show [00:37:12] up and she was [00:37:14] obese. I. Probably 400 [00:37:16] pounds on a walker. [00:37:18] And she probably was only [00:37:20] mid forties. And she came in and [00:37:22] she said, I have no, [00:37:24] uh, no cartilage in my [00:37:26] knees.
It really hurts. And she showed us her [00:37:28] x-rays and she said, I'm really, I'm determined I'm gonna [00:37:30] work on this. And she had something [00:37:32] called a Prolozone [00:37:34] injection. And I wrote about [00:37:36] this in, uh, in [00:37:38] superhuman as one of the stories of things that can [00:37:40] happen. That's my longevity book. [00:37:42] She had ozone gas injected [00:37:44] into her knees, and that's not for the [00:37:46] faint of heart, but it's not that expensive either [00:37:48] compared to stem cells or something [00:37:50] like 150, $200 cheap.[00:37:52]
And she came in six weeks [00:37:54] later with her new x-rays and you could [00:37:56] see a layer of collagen that did not [00:37:58] exist in her first x-rays in six [00:38:00] weeks. And at that point I [00:38:02] said, you know, those doctors who told me you can't grow [00:38:04] cartilage, they just didn't know. [00:38:06] Or maybe, 'cause I was younger, I was like those [00:38:08] liars, they were lying.
They were just [00:38:10] misinformed. So I know because I've [00:38:12] seen it and I've had it happen in my own body, [00:38:14] that you can reverse damage [00:38:16] and aging in joints. And I also know [00:38:18] that it doesn't happen without the right [00:38:20] nutrients. Like that's a a thing, and it doesn't [00:38:22] happen in the presence of constant inflammation and [00:38:24] constant toxins either.
Greg: Two other [00:38:26] things. I think going back to what you asked [00:38:28] me and we started off with, oh, like [00:38:30] diet would be one potential cause [00:38:32] and the wrong kind of exercise, [00:38:34] but you know, we never touched on sleep or [00:38:36] body clock and this oversimplifies it, [00:38:38] but joints are. During the [00:38:40] day, they get stressed with activity, [00:38:42] exercise.
That's all good, right? They're [00:38:44] able, but that's, you know, tends to cause more [00:38:46] catabolic things like breaking down. [00:38:48] And then nighttime is [00:38:50] when joints get to rebuild. [00:38:52] Repair. And nighttime does that for a [00:38:54] lot of things. Right. So because of [00:38:56] that, you know, there's an. Like [00:38:58] a built-in body clock rhythm to [00:39:00] joints and repair and rebuilding [00:39:02] and sleep becomes crazy important.
And [00:39:04] I know, you know, in my [00:39:06] university and Navy Times sleep and [00:39:08] body clock just got hammered, [00:39:10] right? So I had, you know, um, [00:39:12] at a young, our older age than you, [00:39:14] but by my mid twenties I was having quite a [00:39:16] bit of joint issues. And [00:39:18] remember, you know, doctor at the time [00:39:20] saying like, your knees look pretty [00:39:22] old for someone your age that [00:39:24] seems.
That they're doing well, eating and [00:39:26] exercising. But I think it was, those other [00:39:28] things were just so [00:39:30] imbalanced and outta my control.
Dave: I did [00:39:32] not think about it. But of course, joints [00:39:34] have to have circadian rhythm. 'cause [00:39:36] everything with mitochondria has a circadian [00:39:38] rhythm. Do we have any studies about [00:39:40] how important sleep is for [00:39:42] joint pain?
Greg: That's a great question. Off the [00:39:44] top of my head, I don't have [00:39:46] any that I can think of. But [00:39:48] without question, it maps in [00:39:50] patients and the like sleep [00:39:52] does. Two things. When we don't get enough [00:39:54] it, like one, it makes us more [00:39:56] susceptible to feel the same [00:39:58] amount of pain as more painful [00:40:00] or just less resilient to it.
But then [00:40:02] anything that would normally [00:40:04] need to have that [00:40:06] time of the body clock [00:40:08] for repair just doesn't get all the [00:40:10] work done. And that accumulates over [00:40:12] time. So, you know, it's, you [00:40:14] know, a night or two of sleep [00:40:16] deprivation will definitely, usually [00:40:18] feel. The [00:40:20] uncomfortable things in our body more in [00:40:22] a more pronounced manner, but it's the [00:40:24] slow wear and tear [00:40:26] over, you know, weeks, months, years of [00:40:28] not getting enough that just [00:40:30] cause that [00:40:32] beautiful dance or breakdown [00:40:34] and repair to get so [00:40:36] imbalanced that the repair functions just [00:40:38] never can keep pace and it catches [00:40:40] up with us eventually.[00:40:42]
Dave: It makes so much sense and [00:40:44] I just found a, a couple things that make [00:40:46] it, it makes a lot of sense when I, I look at the loop [00:40:48] here. So if you get bad [00:40:50] sleep, your IL six inflammatory [00:40:52] cytokines go up and there's a study [00:40:54] that says up to 40% [00:40:56] higher pain reports the next day, [00:40:58] which means you don't sleep. [00:41:00] Because you're in pain, which [00:41:02] means that your [00:41:04] inflammatory markers go up.
So it creates this nasty [00:41:06] cycle. And there's actually a study documenting [00:41:08] that, and another one that says [00:41:10] circadian misalignment, amplifies joint [00:41:12] stiffness and pain. So if you're on an [00:41:14] airplane, you have jet lag and [00:41:16] you do this sort of stuff, if you block [00:41:18] it, then you're not gonna [00:41:20] enter the cycle. And if [00:41:22] you take care of your circadian rhythm, [00:41:24] it's gonna work much better.
And the [00:41:26] quality of night is a good idea there. I take that, [00:41:28] especially for jet lag or to [00:41:30] prevent jet lag. So there's, [00:41:32] there's ways to solve all these [00:41:34] problems and I, I've just added the [00:41:36] quality of joint health to my, to my [00:41:38] regular, we'll say self maintenance [00:41:40] practice. And I know [00:41:42] for listeners, I talk about a bunch of [00:41:44] supplements and one strategy be [00:41:46] here.
Here's the list of everything I take all at [00:41:48] once. About [00:41:50] 10,000 listeners would copy me tomorrow. [00:41:52] I spend about $3,000 a month on [00:41:54] supplements, and [00:41:56] all of you would either get a [00:41:58] headache, start sweating, or fill your pants, or [00:42:00] maybe all three because my [00:42:02] protocol is highly [00:42:04] customized for someone who's gonna live to 180.
I know my [00:42:06] genetics, I know my microbiome, like I know [00:42:08] everything. And so [00:42:10] my job is to tell you the [00:42:12] things that I add or subtract. I'll tell you [00:42:14] individual things I take and why? [00:42:16] Because you are not me. You [00:42:18] have your own goals. You have your own [00:42:20] priorities, and if you're 25 and your joints [00:42:22] feel great and you got no issues, [00:42:24] don't spend your money on quality [00:42:26] joint health.
It's not the right [00:42:28] investment for you unless you have tons of [00:42:30] money and you're gonna live to longer than me, in which [00:42:32] case go for it, right? But if you've had [00:42:34] issues, then maybe you should take it. Maybe you wanna take it [00:42:36] every other day, whatever. Right. But [00:42:38] maybe you want cognitive function, so you invest [00:42:40] there, right?
And it's, [00:42:42] it's, there's an unlimited number of things you [00:42:44] can do every day to live forever and an [00:42:46] unlimited number of things you can take. I'm just gonna tell you [00:42:48] the good stuff and why you [00:42:50] have to decide your priority stack. [00:42:52] And so now you know a lot [00:42:54] about this one and why you might consider [00:42:56] this for me.
The only thing more [00:42:58] important than my knees not [00:43:00] hurting all the time was that my brain would [00:43:02] work because the knees were a big [00:43:04] issue and I wish I would've had this when I was in [00:43:06] college. It would've made a big difference.
Greg: I tend to think of [00:43:08] this in that hallmarks of aging [00:43:10] framework as like the quality of solution for [00:43:12] that inflammaging category.
Dave: [00:43:14] Yeah,
Greg: it exactly. No matter where that's [00:43:16] showing up, it could be our joints, but it could be [00:43:18] our brain, it could be somewhere else.
Dave: It [00:43:20] it is all about inflammaging and you've [00:43:22] documented very well the [00:43:24] connection between. [00:43:26] The, the joints and the gut [00:43:28] and the brain, right? And [00:43:30] fascia connects all of it. So [00:43:32] I, I feel like this is a necessary [00:43:34] thing, and if you're listening to this going, God, every time I, [00:43:36] I hear this like, there's another [00:43:38] system to manage, welcome to being human.
[00:43:40] Our bodies suck, right? They're also [00:43:42] beautiful and elegant and amazing and all that. [00:43:44] But man, it, it's like [00:43:46] having a Model T Ford. There are [00:43:48] people who still drive a hundred and [00:43:50] whatever year old cars, they just [00:43:52] maintain the living crap out of 'em. [00:43:54] The people who live the longest [00:43:56] usually have incredibly good [00:43:58] genetics, and most [00:44:00] importantly, they had really healthy [00:44:02] mothers and grandmothers, so they [00:44:04] got the vitality passed down, and they [00:44:06] took a lot of hits in this life.
[00:44:08] And if you're alive now, you [00:44:10] probably aren't one of those people, which means you [00:44:12] didn't have a mother who is as healthy, which [00:44:14] means you are going to have to do aggressive [00:44:16] maintenance cycles of multiple systems if you [00:44:18] wanna feel really good and live longer than you're [00:44:20] supposed to. It's the name of the game right now [00:44:22] and we're working on changing [00:44:24] that, right?
There will be [00:44:26] system wide, single injection [00:44:28] gene therapy things, some of which I've [00:44:30] already done that are gonna allow you to say, [00:44:32] you know what? That system, I can do a [00:44:34] one-time upgrade that just bought me 10 or 20 [00:44:36] years on that front so I can pay attention to something else [00:44:38] we're getting there. Or maybe you're gonna shine [00:44:40] a laser, you know, at your butt hole.
I [00:44:42] have no idea. But whatever it [00:44:44] is, uh, there's someone working on it [00:44:46] and I've never been more [00:44:48] excited than ever. In the meantime, I'm gonna keep [00:44:50] my joints really healthy, [00:44:52] so check out quality of [00:44:54] life.com/dave 15. They're gonna [00:44:56] give you 15% off [00:44:58] subscriptions for this [00:45:00] and, and do it if you feel called [00:45:02] to. And if you don't, don't.
But I will tell [00:45:04] you, Greg, here and 30 [00:45:06] published papers, I looked at his [00:45:08] spreadsheet a couple years ago. [00:45:10] They narrowed it down, they did their clinical [00:45:12] trials, and Quaia has earned my [00:45:14] respect over the years because they do more science [00:45:16] than anyone else I've seen, except [00:45:18] maybe my friends at Pipeline. Those guys do a lot of [00:45:20] science too, under one molecule.
They, they [00:45:22] might be up there with you guys, uh, [00:45:24] but there are so many companies that don't do [00:45:26] any. So, uh, great respect [00:45:28] and gratitude for all of your work. Thank you. [00:45:30]
Greg: You're welcome. Thank you for having me on the [00:45:32] show today, Dave.
Dave: See you [00:45:34] next time on the Human [00:45:36] Upgrade [00:45:38] Podcast.