Dave: [00:00:00] You've talked about nitric oxide at things like libido, things like energy, brain [00:00:05] function. Is it one of the master switches for our metabolism?
Nathan: If you want to heal and regenerate [00:00:10] and optimize your
Host: human performance, nitric oxide's really at the top of the list. Dr. Nathan [00:00:15] Bryan is one of the world's leading experts on nitric oxide, a molecule your body can't live without.
He's [00:00:20] the scientist behind hundreds of studies, multiple patents, and game changing breakthroughs that are [00:00:25] reshaping how we think about heart health, energy, and performance. We know that 50 percent of the men that are given [00:00:30]
Nathan: In Viagra for the past 26 years. Mm-hmm . Don't respond with better erections because these drugs [00:00:35] aren't affecting nitric oxide production.
If we give nitric oxide and restore the body's ability to produce nitric [00:00:40] oxide, blood sugar comes down, insulin comes down 'cause we're potentiating the effects of insulin and [00:00:45] overcoming insulin resistance.
Dave: Do we have any evidence that increasing nitric oxide helps in [00:00:50] real time with brain fog, or does it take a while?
You are listening to the [00:00:55] Human Upgrade with Dave aspr.[00:01:00]
I'm looking to define the master switches in biohacking and [00:01:05] I look at things like mitochondrial function and I look at things like blood flow or electrical [00:01:10] capacity and things like that. And you've talked about nitric oxide at things like [00:01:15] libido, things like energy, brain function. Is it one of the master switches for our metabolism?[00:01:20]
Nathan: It's what we call foundational. You know, it's not a panacea. It's like an end all be all cure all. It's not a [00:01:25] silver bullet. But what we do know is that it regulates blood flow, improves circulation, improves [00:01:30] libido. It activates your mitochondria. So your mitochondria become more efficient at [00:01:35] utilizing oxygen, less oxygen to make more cellular ATP.
Interestingly, it [00:01:40] induces mitochondrial biogenesis. So now we have, if you have adequate nitric oxide, you have more [00:01:45] mitochondria generating more ATP cellular energy more efficiently, [00:01:50] but You know, it controls cognition, improving blood flow when we recall memory, it improves [00:01:55] glucose uptake, uh, and insulin signaling, it prevents telomeres from shortening, it [00:02:00] mobilizes our own stem cells.
So if you want to heal and regenerate and [00:02:05] optimize your human performance, nitric oxide is really at the top of the list.
Dave: I believe it. [00:02:10] And I've, I've looked at all these things. You have CO2. You have oxygen, [00:02:15] and I manipulate those levels, and at Upgrade Labs, you can go in and do a [00:02:20] carefully scripted switching between breathing those things, and it causes widespread effects, [00:02:25] where I could do just breath work to become hyperoxic, and you start tripping balls.
Right. [00:02:30] And those are relatively easy to understand, but nitric oxide only lasts for a [00:02:35] brief period in the body. How long does it last and how do we make it?
Nathan: Well, if we look at the physical [00:02:40] chemistry of nitric oxide, so once it's produced, if it's produced in the lining of the blood vessels, [00:02:45] then it's gone in less than a second, about two milliseconds or one fifth of a second.
If it's produced [00:02:50] in a cell outside the blood vessels, it sticks around for a couple of seconds. But what I like to say is [00:02:55] it, it It's a, it's a signaling molecule, right? It activates second messenger systems. [00:03:00] So if you've got a string of dominoes, right? And you want to knock over that last domino or you want to start that [00:03:05] cascade, I would say nitric oxide is that first domino.
So once you generate nitric [00:03:10] oxide gas, all those second messenger systems, everything that's downstream of NO takes [00:03:15] place.
Dave: So it's fundamental. How do I get nitric oxide?
Nathan: Well, there's a [00:03:20] couple of ways the body makes nitric oxide, and so that was really what I was trying to do for the past [00:03:25] 25 years, right?
Because in late 90s, early 2000s, once the Nobel [00:03:30] prize was awarded, I had a conversation with Lou Ignaro, Dr. Ignaro, who won the Nobel prize
Dave: for nitric [00:03:35] oxide, for
Nathan: the discovery of nitric oxide. And he told me over dinner, he goes, Nathan, if anybody can figure [00:03:40] out how to restore the production or safely and effectively deliver nitric oxide, it'll change the world.[00:03:45]
It'll change the face of the landscape of medicine. So I go, wow, that's a pretty bold statement. [00:03:50] So you can't even think about developing rational therapies or improving someone's nitric [00:03:55] oxide if at first you don't understand how the human body makes it naturally. So that was [00:04:00] the road I went on 25, 26 years ago.
How does the human body make it? What leads to a [00:04:05] loss of nitric oxide production? And then once you've answered those two questions and only then can you [00:04:10] start to develop rational therapies. So, number one is produced by an enzyme called nitric oxide [00:04:15] synthase. That enzyme is found in our blood vessels, it's found in our brain, it's found in our immune [00:04:20] cells.
In fact, most cells in the body have a functional nitric oxide synthase. In fact, [00:04:25] now evidence showing that even red blood cells have their own nitric oxide producing enzyme. [00:04:30] So, that enzyme converts arginine to nitric oxide. Very [00:04:35] complex five electron multi step oxidation reaction. So you've got to be able to count electrons in order to [00:04:40] understand it.
So that's number one. Over time, that enzyme becomes dysfunctional. [00:04:45] It produces less nitric oxide. That's due to, really, a [00:04:50] western lifestyle, right? A diet high in sugar, refined carbohydrates, processed foods, [00:04:55] sedentary lifestyle, exposure to toxicants.
Dave: Like a lack of coffee, probably?
Nathan: [00:05:00] Lack of coffee. Preps, and then the other pathway is through the diet, the [00:05:05] foods we eat, the oral microbiome and stomach acid production.
And so we can, this is completely [00:05:10] independent, but compensatory, what we call a redundant pathway to make nitric [00:05:15] oxide. So then we can feel nitric oxide through our diet and maintaining healthy oral microbiome and maintaining [00:05:20] sufficient stomach acid production.
Dave: What is the worst food to lower [00:05:25] nitric oxide production?
Sugar, sugar, without a
Nathan: doubt. Anything that leads to an [00:05:30] increase in Blood sugar or glucose, because glucose, as the name implies, is glue, [00:05:35] right? It sticks everything together, so it not only locks these [00:05:40] enzymes in a specific conformational state and doesn't allow it to transfer electrons and basically leads to a [00:05:45] number of enzyme deficiencies and dysfunction, but it completely changes our microbiome.
[00:05:50] You eat a high carbohydrate, high sugar, it changes the gut microbiome, changes the oral microbiome, [00:05:55] and completely shuts down nitric oxide production.
Dave: How much sugar do I have to eat to shut [00:06:00] down my nitric oxide?
Nathan: You know, I don't know if that's ever been quantified, but certainly anything that [00:06:05] leads to an increase in blood glucose.
Hemoglobin A1c, if you have [00:06:10] insulin resistance, then you're completely devoid of nitric oxide. Wow. Because in order to get [00:06:15] glucose into the cell, for insulin to do its job, the cell has to be able to produce nitric [00:06:20] oxide. And we published on that in 2011.
Dave: Does that mean that if people can take [00:06:25] N1O1, your nitric oxide stuff, that that works very noticeably?
Is that going to change [00:06:30] HbA1c?
Nathan: Here's what we know. We know that if we give nitric oxide or restore the body's ability to produce [00:06:35] nitric oxide, blood sugar comes down, insulin comes down. Because we're [00:06:40] improving, we're potentiating the effects of insulin and overcoming insulin resistance. [00:06:45] But how long does it take?
You know, typically, if you don't change your lifestyle, look, if you [00:06:50] continue to be sedentary and you continue to eat a poor diet, enriched in carbohydrates, it's like, you [00:06:55] know, you continue overwhelming the system. And nitric oxide is as powerful as a molecule it is, [00:07:00] it's not, it can't overcome. You know, lack of discipline and poor [00:07:05] lifestyle choices.
Dave: What can? Because I would like to have less discipline in my life.
Nathan: Look, it takes the [00:07:10] discipline. I mean, as you and I both know, it's hard work staying healthy and not [00:07:15] getting sick. But it's harder work getting healthy if you're sick. I mean, I think you experienced it, right?
Dave: [00:07:20] Absolutely. Very strangely increased blood flow in the brain [00:07:25] get more willpower increased mitochondrial function get more willpower So it takes [00:07:30] less discipline if your cells work, right?
Correct. So, all right What is the [00:07:35] best food for raising nitric oxide
Nathan: anything that doesn't lead to an increase in blood sugar? [00:07:40] For me, it's about
Dave: steak.
Nathan: No, I look I think the data on [00:07:45] I'm not a big fan of these carnivore diets, personally, or the extreme diets, straight [00:07:50] keto and then straight vegan vegetarian.
I think different people require different, [00:07:55] different things.
Dave: I do have to say though, there are some very angry carnivore people, but they're [00:08:00] still less angry than the strict vegans. I mean, can we just call a fact a fact? That's [00:08:05] probably
Nathan: right. Now, look, I think good protein. With good fats a [00:08:10] combination of, you know, I think we need some antioxidants, some, some, a balanced diet in [00:08:15] moderation, but for me, it's high protein,
Dave: balanced in moderation.
It's like French fries. What are you talking [00:08:20] about? Probably not. Maybe
Nathan: French fries
Dave: fried in beef tallow, right? I'm still not going to recommend those. I've [00:08:25] heard either these weird vegan kale fetishists who are just into that, but. It [00:08:30] feels like a little bit of celery, or eating some beets, or something that has nitrate in it, some kind of [00:08:35] plant, is a good idea?
Is it necessary?
Nathan: Well, when we look at kind of what feeds [00:08:40] nitric oxide production in the body, one of those comes from a molecule called inorganic nitrate, which [00:08:45] is found primarily in green leafy vegetables. And so this molecule is inert [00:08:50] in humans. Right. Humans do not have a functional nitrate reductase enzyme.
Dave: So we just can't use [00:08:55] that.
Nathan: We can't use it. So we rely on the bacteria in and on our body to do that. [00:09:00] So if you eat a straight vegetarian diet or vegan diet, green leafy vegetables, but you [00:09:05] have fluoride in your toothpaste, or you have fluoride in your drinking water, or using antiseptic mouthwash, [00:09:10] or you're taking antacids, then you get no nitric oxide benefit from that.
Dave: [00:09:15] You
Nathan: just, you sweat it out, you, you poop it out, and you pee it out. Nitrate is [00:09:20] completely unchanged in the human body unless it's activated by the bacteria.
Dave: Got it. [00:09:25] So, do I need probiotics for this or just eat some stuff regularly that has nitrate in it?
Nathan: We're [00:09:30] still trying to understand the ecology of the oral microbiome, but what we've found is there's really no [00:09:35] commercially available prebiotic or probiotic to restore these, you know, I filed patents on [00:09:40] this years ago because we identified the specific bacteria [00:09:45] that we've identified that are responsible for regulating systemic blood pressure.
Are
Dave: you sure [00:09:50] there's no prebiotic? Cause I, I take your N1O1. [00:09:55] Tablet at night before I go to bed, then I put in a bite guard so I don't lose the height of my [00:10:00] molars as I age, and then I tape my mouth closed, which is good for my relationship and nitric oxide in the [00:10:05] brain. But when I do that, I have now filled my mouth [00:10:10] with nitric oxide.
Therefore, it's a prebiotic for the bacteria that like that.
Nathan: No, [00:10:15] I completely agree with you 100%. When you look, when I'm thinking prebiotics, things that are sold. [00:10:20] Oh, prebiotic. They're classified.
Dave: You don't sell your thing as a prebiotic, but it is because I know it is. [00:10:25] I
Nathan: mean, when we get into the weeds of that, I tell people because our lozenge does something that no other technology [00:10:30] does.
Number one, if your body can't make nitric oxide, we do it for you. We recouple the enzyme in the lining of the [00:10:35] blood vessel. And because it's an orally disintegrating tablet that's generating NO in the mouth, it's [00:10:40] killing the pathogen, overcoming the dysbiosis, and restoring these nitrogen [00:10:45] denitrification, or denitrifying bacteria.
So yeah, in that sense, it's [00:10:50] completely acting as a prebiotic.
Dave: I definitely have noticed we'll just say the [00:10:55] beneficial changes in the morning kickstand. As a result of, of N1O1, [00:11:00] and I have not seen that from the vast majority of nitric oxide, all this beet stuff out there doesn't [00:11:05] seem to do anything.
Nathan: No, that's, you know, you mentioned earlier, am I frustrated? And so part of my frustration [00:11:10] is with, you know, kind of the, the adoption of what we're doing in, in basic standard of care, [00:11:15] Western medicine. But my greatest source of frustration is dealing with these companies out [00:11:20] there that are selling so called nitric oxide products.
And these companies don't have a scientist. On [00:11:25] staff that understands the enzymology and the biochemistry and the production pathways. So they really have no [00:11:30] business making nitric oxide products because it could kill an entire industry, [00:11:35]
Dave: right? Because people sell stuff that doesn't work, right?
Nathan: Yeah, so that's the best, the most common [00:11:40] response.
Yeah, they go, Nathan, you talk about nitric oxide. I heard you on Dave's podcast, but I've been taking [00:11:45] nitric oxide for many years and it doesn't help my blood pressure. It hasn't helped my libido. [00:11:50] So nitric oxide doesn't work for me. And that's a very dangerous interpretation. Nitric oxide [00:11:55] always works.
That product didn't work for you.
Dave: I have tried over the years, um, [00:12:00] citrulline peptides and arginine and citrine. And there isn't a [00:12:05] noticeable difference, uh, in blood flow. And again, I'm using that morning kickstand as, as a thing. That's your best [00:12:10] dosimeter. I'm not so motivated to measure my nighttime erections.
I just [00:12:15] have better things to measure. Uh, and I'm just not worried about it. But in the morning, uh, You know, things [00:12:20] are, things are very, very working well. So there's [00:12:25] a correlation between taking N1O1 and, um, just the amount of blood flow. It's pretty obvious. [00:12:30] And I don't get that from arginine.
Nathan: Here's the problem.
When you look at the enzymology, [00:12:35] we have, we have excess arginine and citrulline in our blood, in our [00:12:40] cell, then what we need to saturate the enzyme to make nitric oxide. So there's [00:12:45] already an excess. We're never deficient. In these amino acids, so it doesn't make sense to [00:12:50] supplement what's not missing. So what's the problem then?
Why isn't it working? Well, because the enzyme that [00:12:55] typically converts the arginine to nitric oxide, when you get citrulline as a byproduct, by the way, citrulline is [00:13:00] not a precursor, it's a byproduct for nitric oxide production. So the dysfunction of that enzyme isn't [00:13:05] able to convert arginine to nitric oxide.
Dave: Why is it dysfunctional?
Nathan: Well, the rate limiting [00:13:10] step in that is the oxidation of tetrahydrobotrin. So it's oxidative stress that leads to [00:13:15] oxidation of BH4, and then you get NOS uncoupling. And now if you give arginine to an uncoupled [00:13:20] enzyme, you're generating superoxide. So now you're exacerbating an oxidative stress and [00:13:25] superoxide production cycle.
And
Dave: SOD or superoxide is tied to gray [00:13:30] hair and all kinds of aging. It's a nasty free radical, right?
Nathan: Well, superoxide [00:13:35] dismutase is what detoxifies superoxide radical. Converts it to hydrogen peroxide, [00:13:40] and we got an enzyme called catalase that takes that to water. But as we know, there's single [00:13:45] nucleotide polymorphisms and SOD in catalase.
So if you can't detoxify these [00:13:50] oxygen radicals, you age very quickly. So it's best to mitigate the production of [00:13:55] oxygen radicals, overcome the oxidative stress, and nitric oxide does that.
Dave: Okay, then you [00:14:00] make the nitric oxide lozenges. That are going to prevent the problem that arginine would cause.[00:14:05]
Nathan: That's right. So we, we, we address root cause, right? So we fix the enzyme. So [00:14:10] within taking one lozenge within 20 minutes, we see already a 20 percent improvement in [00:14:15] the function of that enzyme.[00:14:20]
Dave: Why is eating beets stupid?
Nathan: This [00:14:25] all started in London in the 2012 Olympic Games. Because there was some early data coming [00:14:30] out. I mean, everything has a reason right? There were data coming out primarily from some UK investigators showing that [00:14:35] if you drink beetroot juice that contained a standardized amount of nitrate, that the body would convert this into [00:14:40] nitric oxide and you could enhance it.
And improve physical performance, even in well trained [00:14:45] athletes. So during that time, most of these Olympic athletes, in fact, I think the, [00:14:50] the UK Olympic team won more medals than the 2012 Olympic Games than any other time in [00:14:55] history. And they attributed that to the beet juice. So then the market was flooded with beetroot [00:15:00] products.
And then I started testing them because we were, we were making nitric oxide [00:15:05] or contemplating making nitric oxide based product technology. So what's in beets? [00:15:10] Most of these beets products are what we call dead beets. All they do is turn your pee and your, your poop red and [00:15:15] cause a lot of anxiety. So there's no nitrate in them.
In fact, we've used a lot of these [00:15:20] commercial beet products as placebos in our randomized placebo controlled clinical trials for nitric oxide [00:15:25] active products.
Dave: Wow. Wow. So they truly don't work. And I've been to your labs and seen [00:15:30] your, your 65, 000 piece of gear. Like, look, there's no nitric oxide.
Nathan: Yeah, no, we measure it.
And we, we [00:15:35] hold these, these products to the account.
Dave: The other reason beets are stupid is they're very oxalate. [00:15:40] So you're drinking a bunch of beet juice. You're just clogging up your kidneys and getting [00:15:45] some gout and some sore joints and muscle pain and bad skin. And, uh, There's a lot of [00:15:50] foods you can eat if you're a peasant to get enough calories to stay alive.
They just come with toxins. Beets [00:15:55] would be peasant food. Sorry, guys. And the third
Nathan: least liked vegetable in the world.
Dave: What are the other [00:16:00] two?
Nathan: I don't know, but they got to be pretty bad to beat beets. Kale. Yes. [00:16:05] No, but I think here's, I mean, to address that, because it's a huge problem. So when [00:16:10] people are looking, when biohackers or consumers are looking for beats because they see the [00:16:15] commercials and they see them, the media out there, then I felt I had an obligation.
If you're looking [00:16:20] for beats as a source, as a way to deliver nitric oxide, then we know how to do that. So we ferment [00:16:25] beats. We start with A premium product. We ferment them, so we pre convert it. We [00:16:30] take out the oxalates, we take out the beet pulp, the beet fiber, the beet taste. And so our NO Beets [00:16:35] Powder is a white powder, doesn't look or taste like beets, no oxalates, nitric [00:16:40] oxide delivery, electrolytes, and we put in mitochondrial ATP.
So you want to [00:16:45] optimize nitric oxide, improve performance, and turn on your mitochondria. You know, beats products is [00:16:50] killer.
Dave: You know, this is kind of off the topic for what we're talking about, but having [00:16:55] ATP circulating as a signaling molecule, that's not inside mitochondria has all kinds of [00:17:00] beneficial effects because mitochondria, like a mitochondria must've popped and released ATP.
Therefore, let's get [00:17:05] stronger. Yeah. So the client, you know,
Nathan: lean muscle [00:17:10] mass, uh, sports performance, cognitive performance. I mean, 10 to 12 [00:17:15] clinically proven claims on improving mitochondrial ATP.
Dave: Speaking of, uh, blood [00:17:20] sugar, what does nitric oxide do to my blood sugar?
Nathan: It's going to improve fasting glucose [00:17:25] levels.
Dave: Okay.
Nathan: So we're going to potentiate the effects of insulin. So how insulin signaling works, right? Insulin [00:17:30] is secreted by the pancreas. It hits the circulation. It binds to the insulin receptors, primarily on [00:17:35] muscle cells, fat cells, and liver cells. And then tells that cell to bring glucose in. [00:17:40] Glucose transport.
There's a protein, a transporter called GLUT4. [00:17:45] And GLUT4 is what goes to the membrane, binds glucose and brings it in. [00:17:50] Well, that signal to tell GLUT4 to translocate and bring in glucose [00:17:55] is nitric oxide. So when insulin binds and it tells that cell to make [00:18:00] nitric oxide, To activate GLUT4 translocation, that's insulin [00:18:05] signaling.
If the cell can make nitric oxide, we call that insulin resistance. So [00:18:10] insulin resistance in type 2 diabetes is a symptom of nitric oxide deficiency. [00:18:15]
Dave: If I wanted to eat a whole lot of sugar tonight for some reason, we'll say cheesecake. [00:18:20] Should I just take like three N1O1 tablets first? Protect myself or to lower the [00:18:25] blood glucose more quickly.
Like I would take berberine.
Nathan: I've never done that experiment. It's time to [00:18:30] try. It makes sense. No. So I would take it like immediate, but maybe even immediately after, because it takes time [00:18:35] to see the spike in glucose. Okay. So maybe give it 15, 20 minutes, take a lozenge, and now you're going to [00:18:40] clear that glucose much quicker.
Dave: That's a cool hack. I think a lot of people are going to try that because [00:18:45] I'm actually not opposed to carbs and if you have a zero carb diet, it's actually [00:18:50] stressful over time
Nathan: and you need glycogen. You need glucose. You need an energy source. And if [00:18:55] you're physically active. You need that fuel, right? So it's everybody's [00:19:00] different.
If we're, you know, especially professional athletes, Olympic athletes, they have to feel on carb, [00:19:05] but the couch potato eating potato chips, that's not active. The [00:19:10] worst thing he can do is eat carbs because he can't, he going to store it as fat.
Dave: 100%. When people [00:19:15] don't eat carbs over time that their gut biome gets disrupted and there's all kinds of like angry people who are saying [00:19:20] that's not true.
Like I did a full almost a year of what we now call a carnivore when I was [00:19:25] testing the edges of the Bulletproof diet and I looked at my gut microbiome and it happens. [00:19:30] And you see actually declines in testosterone and increases in cortisol that [00:19:35] also correlate with ED. With very low sleep quality with less growth hormone [00:19:40] and I eat about two pounds of red meat a day So [00:19:45] I'm protein centric, but I eat some carbs and if you're lean you can eat [00:19:50] more carbs But when I do eat carbs, I would like my blood sugar to go up [00:19:55] But not to go up super high and not to stay up for too long So I take berberine if I'm gonna do [00:20:00] that and sometimes some other stuff But it's interesting, I'm going to start adding N1O1 when I do [00:20:05] that, so then I can literally have my cake and eat it too.
Nathan: That makes perfect sense. [00:20:10] And that's the beauty of biohacking, right? You can customize it to your physiology, and to [00:20:15] increase, or to meet your own metabolic demands, and how to optimize your performance, because everybody's [00:20:20] different.
Dave: Is there a drug or a medical procedure that just decimates nitric oxide?
Nathan: [00:20:25] The drug is there's two primarily proton pump inhibitors completely shuts down [00:20:30] systemic nitric oxide production. And we now know that people who have been on these drugs for at least three [00:20:35] years Have up to 40 percent higher incidence of heart attack stroke and alzheimer's [00:20:40]
Dave: It's really dumb because you can take an h2 blocker that does the same thing You know, you [00:20:45] take pepcid c and you'll turn off your stomach acid, right?
Nathan: Well, I don't think it's never a good [00:20:50] idea To shut down stomach acid production, right? You need stomach acid to absorb [00:20:55] selenium, chromium, iodine, zinc, B vitamins. You need stomach acid to break down proteins into [00:21:00] amino
Dave: acids. Wait a minute. Didn't you go to medical school? You're not supposed to know this stuff.
But we
Nathan: [00:21:05] have, we, our stomach is designed to make hydrochloric acid, but the PPI's are [00:21:10] the other worst. And then the other cholesterol lowering medications.
Dave: Okay, so got so statins. [00:21:15] Um, I like to call statins the Atea molecules. [00:21:20] Sorry, Peter. Maybe you shouldn't put those in your longevity book. You know, nitric oxide.
Nathan: No, it's awful. They're
Dave: awful drugs. [00:21:25] Like those, I'm not saying there was never a case for them. But, um, so statins, no, for [00:21:30] obvious reasons, we've talked about for 10 years on the show. But then, Um, when it comes [00:21:35] to the other drugs or stomach acid, there's a very interesting [00:21:40] connection between salt intake and stomach acid.
So if you get enough salt, you can make enough [00:21:45] stomach acid and most people are terribly salt deficient. Uh, and so I do eight or 10 grams of [00:21:50] sodium a day and it absolutely is life changing. In fact, I couldn't take N1O1, your [00:21:55] nitric oxide thing, because it causes vasodilation. If I don't get enough salt.
My [00:22:00] blood pressure drops. I feel the drop. My brain gets dumb if I take an n 101 [00:22:05] and I don't have enough sodium, right? Because I have a low blood pressure anyway, so [00:22:10] just looking at that get enough sodium Then your body can make stomach acid [00:22:15] and then you can digest your food you get your minerals and all that stuff in
Nathan: Well
Dave: that came
Nathan: at that [00:22:20] biochemical reaction That reaction that happens in the power excels of the stomach.
It's [00:22:25] very well defined You need sodium chloride. Mm-hmm . For sure. You need zinc, [00:22:30] you need iodine, you need sodium bicarb, and you need B vitamins. Actually, you [00:22:35] can't make, if B
Dave: bicarb doesn't have to be sodium. Could be pot bicarb. Yeah. It could
Nathan: be bicarb. Yeah. If youcar sodium. [00:22:40] So if you're taking an anac acid Yeah.
You can't absorb B vitamins. Mm-hmm . You can't absorb zinc. [00:22:45] You can't absorb iodine. So there's no way your calic cells can make hydrochloric acid. We have to give [00:22:50] the body what it needs, let the body do its job and get the hell out of the way.
Dave: For the long COVID [00:22:55] protocols that I've shared, I do recommend that people take Pepsodacy for six [00:23:00] months, and that's because you need to block H2 histamine receptors, but you always [00:23:05] take betaine HCL, which is stomach acid with your food.
Otherwise, it doesn't work because if you take [00:23:10] stomach acid, you can still do all the downstream things that you need, right?
Nathan: Well, the [00:23:15] signaling is when the, when the, when the stomach empties that acid load into the duodenum and [00:23:20] you get that acid load right in the duodenum. That's what signals the exocrine pancreas to [00:23:25] secrete bicarb, and that's your acid based buffering in the system.
If you have
Dave: bicarb available,
Nathan: [00:23:30] if you never get the acid dump, you completely become acidotic. In fact, that's what leads to [00:23:35] acidosis in long COVID patients, especially when you put them on a, a PPI, when they're admitted [00:23:40] for long COVID. And especially when you put them on a mechanical ventilator. They become acidotic and they [00:23:45] die.
Dave: It feels like it would just be cheaper and less cruel to just, like, drop them off the top of the [00:23:50] hospital, wouldn't it?
Nathan: Perhaps. I mean, look, that would I'm sorry, if you want a
Dave: recipe to kill someone, [00:23:55] you just said what it was.
Nathan: Yeah. Now, look, I looked at this as a biochemist and physiologist [00:24:00] thinking, That's the absolute worst thing I could imagine how to treat a patient.
I mean, [00:24:05] it's, it's exactly it gets, it goes against everything we know about physiology.
Dave: And so [00:24:10] when I see that sort of stuff, I'm like, man, your job is to not go to the hospital.
Nathan: No, stay out, [00:24:15] stay out of the hospital for sure.
Dave: That's one of the reasons I drive a heavy vehicle. That's
Nathan: a good [00:24:20] strategy.
Dave: That's part of my longevity strategy, [00:24:25] right?
And that said, I'm very grateful there are hospitals when you really need it, you know, they can [00:24:30] absolutely save your life. But this kind of nonsense that is not systems biology based, it ignores [00:24:35] nitric oxide. It ignores obvious pathways. Why do they do it? Well, an insurance company told him to, [00:24:40] it's all I can tell.
Nathan: It's the best financial model in the world.
Dave: Well, we're going to [00:24:45] fix it because biohackers are right now disrupting a lot of a lot of medicine, especially [00:24:50] chronic care. And it's really straightforward. I could hire a [00:24:55] general contractor to do everything in my house, or I could go to Home Depot and do it myself.
And everyone knows [00:25:00] you get what you want if you do it yourself. And if it doesn't work, then you hire the contractor, you [00:25:05] hire the expert, right? Or if you have something that's really wrong, okay, like, I don't know what's going on. You hire the [00:25:10] electrician. Bye. Bye. Having agency to take care of your physical environment around you, [00:25:15] or even inside of you, I think it's shifting things.
So, people do go to the doctor [00:25:20] less, and when they do go, it's to actually take advantage of the knowledge the doctor [00:25:25] has, instead of to come in and just, well, I don't know, the insurance company said to take a proton pop inhibitor. Yeah, turn your
Nathan: [00:25:30] health over to them. I mean, we have to take control of our own health.
Dave: And from what I'm hearing from doctors, [00:25:35] and I want to hear your opinion on this, they're actually liking that because yes, you get sometimes angry [00:25:40] patients who went to Dr. Google and think they know everything, but quite often you get someone who's [00:25:45] actually handled all the easy stuff. So you have to, well, maybe you should try to sleep and go for a [00:25:50] walk every day and like, well, doc, I'm doing all these things.
I took these supplements like, oh, you have a real problem. Let's, let's go in. So it [00:25:55] allows real care and real medicine the way it used to be versus. [00:26:00] This three minutes per patient thing, so I, I'm actually feeling like it's positive for medicine and lowers [00:26:05] health care costs and it's positive for people because now we're in charge of ourselves for sure.
When you
Nathan: start peeling [00:26:10] back the layers of the onion, you can actually get to the root cause of because people are so sick and multi [00:26:15] system disease, multiple symptoms, doctors can call it idiopathic fibromyalgia. [00:26:20] Yeah, when they don't know what it is, they call it idiopathic something or a syndrome [00:26:25] so that then they can treat it with a medicine, but a syndrome means they have no freaking idea what the hell [00:26:30] is going on.
Dave: When I hear idiopathic fibromyalgia, I just think about, I go, [00:26:35] yeah, that's just incompetent doctor because if you're not looking at mass cells and you're not looking at mold and [00:26:40] the other known contributors that are well known, And even if a doctor is not [00:26:45] trained in that, you could ask an AI agent or Google and they'll just tell you right there.
Like, like there's [00:26:50] patient advocacy groups trying to get doctors to know about these things. And what's the uniting element in all of them? [00:26:55] Mitochondria. And what else is nitric oxide, right? Because mitochondria fail if you don't have blood [00:27:00] flow. That's right. So I think the big problem with nitric oxide, [00:27:05] as we talked about last time you were on, it only lasts for microseconds, so no one could see it.[00:27:10]
Right. I want to go back. What made you [00:27:15] interested in a signaling molecule that barely exists before it's used?
Nathan: [00:27:20] The irony of this, when I was a biochemistry major at University of Texas here [00:27:25] down the road at Austin, the last, when I graduated, I said, I never want to deal with nitrogen based [00:27:30] chemistry again.
But then I was in, I was in a PhD program in, [00:27:35] uh, at LSU school of medicine, working on a PhD in molecular and cellular physiology and a Nobel prize had just been awarded. [00:27:40] And Lou Ignaro came and presented this kind of story of discovery and the [00:27:45] Nobel Prize. And again, that conversation kind of inspired me and he was very supportive.
[00:27:50] And look, he goes, we have to figure this out. There's still so much we don't know. So I trained under a [00:27:55] pharmacologist who had been in the nitric oxide field for the previous probably 20 years. Come from industry. So he [00:28:00] was had the mindset of understanding, figuring out and solving complex biological [00:28:05] problems to the extent that you could start to develop rational therapy.
So that was [00:28:10] really attractive to me that we could, if we could understand how the human body makes nitric [00:28:15] oxide, what leads to a loss of it. And then. How to fix it. Then as Lou said, we would change the world [00:28:20] and I've witnessed that over the past 15 years. We've certainly changed people's lives.
Dave: So straight from a Nobel prize [00:28:25] winner, just inspiring you.
Beautiful. How bad is mouthwash
Nathan: again? [00:28:30] Mouthwash is one of the things it's, it's, it's a really bad thing to do, but anything that [00:28:35] says antiseptic, I don't watch TV, but I see sometimes, you know, I'm in, uh, airports or [00:28:40] hotel rooms or lobbies and it goes this. This antiseptic mouthwash kills 99. 99 percent of the [00:28:45] bacteria in your mouth, and companies are advertising that.
Sounds like a dumb idea. No, it's an [00:28:50] awful idea. I mean, would you, would any, let's just say, physicians, any physician out [00:28:55] there that told you it was a good idea to take an antibiotic every day, sometimes twice [00:29:00] a day, for the rest of your life, would be negligent. Subject to [00:29:05] malpractice because we know that destroying the microbiome, the gut microbiome through overuse of [00:29:10] antibiotics causes systemic disease.
Dysbiosis is contributing to [00:29:15] most, if not all, chronic disease. So by the same argument, why would you throw an atomic [00:29:20] bomb in your mouth two to three times a day, killing all the bacteria, the good, the bad, the ugly, [00:29:25] because it's causing dysbiosis. We've shown and others have shown that it causes lack of nitric oxide.[00:29:30]
Your blood pressure goes up and you lose the protective benefits of exercise. I mean, I [00:29:35] couldn't think of a worse thing to do
Dave: in nitric oxide is way more important than washing your mouth out [00:29:40] with Lysol, basically.
Nathan: Well, it's like if you if you want to have fresh breaths, you want to have a day to [00:29:45] become intimate.
But yet if you have fresh breath because the mouthwash you're not going to be able to get an erection because you don't have any nitric [00:29:50] So you're really defeating the purpose of trying to get fresh breath
Dave: I think I just realized how to [00:29:55] create the perpetual motion machine of business We can start a company that makes [00:30:00] mouthwash And Viagra plus N1O1.
So you create the problem, sell the solution. [00:30:05] Sounds like Bayer buying, buying Monsanto. It's already been done. Oh, wait. Yeah, exactly. It's a multi, [00:30:10] multi trillion dollar business. What should people do instead of mouthwash?
Nathan: You know, certainly brush [00:30:15] twice a day with a non fluoride toothpaste. You know, we've talked about the, the, the harm [00:30:20] of fluoride in drinking water, fluoride in toothpaste, lowers IQ by as much as seven points in kids, [00:30:25] shuts down your thyroid function, and it's a neurotoxin.
So we still need to brush our [00:30:30] teeth. Right, to maintain good oral hygiene.
Dave: You know what I like to do? I like to take the fluoride [00:30:35] out. I just like to put lead and mercury in. Because they're also antimicrobial, right? Is that a good [00:30:40] idea?
Nathan: I mean, you probably get the same effect. Well, if you look at the back of a Colgate toothpaste, it says, if you [00:30:45] swallow this, call poison control and only use a pea sized amount because it's [00:30:50] poison.
It's insane.
Dave: And by the way, guys, please don't put heavy metals in your mouthwash or in your toothpaste, [00:30:55] but seriously, yeah, putting fluoride in is the same thing. It's that bad. [00:31:00] So, and that's going to disrupt it. So we want to brush with toothpaste. That's your [00:31:05] natural, probably baking soda, stuff like that.
Well, you know, I couldn't, you know,
Nathan: my frustration was trying to find. [00:31:10] A good toothpaste. And I could not find one. So I developed one [00:31:15] myself. Number one, it was fluoride free. Number two, there was hydroxyapatite base that could [00:31:20] remineralize the teeth, leave the strong teeth, and then could restore the oral [00:31:25] microbiome.
And so,
Dave: that is Does it have prebiotics in it, or We're
Nathan: restoring, we're [00:31:30] targeting the oral microbiome. Okay. The thought process was this. So we [00:31:35] showed that if you destroy the microbiome, you shut down nitric oxide production and blood pressure goes [00:31:40] up,
Dave: right?
Nathan: So the question was, if we target the microbiome, restore the ecology of the micro [00:31:45] oral microbiome, we improve nitric oxide.
Can blood pressure come down? And what we're finding [00:31:50] is, early on, people who switch their toothpaste from their Crest [00:31:55] Colgate Fluoride toothpaste to our CardioSmile, their blood pressure becomes normal. [00:32:00] Think about this. 50 percent of the people that are treated with a prescription medication for high blood [00:32:05] pressure don't respond with better blood pressure.
ACE inhibitors don't work. ARBs [00:32:10] don't work. Calcium channel blockers don't work. And why? Because their hypertension is a symptom [00:32:15] of oral dysbiosis. It's the wrong target. If we target the microbiome, We [00:32:20] enhanced nitric oxide production. And now, for the first time in the history of western medicine, [00:32:25] we have a conversation of how do we get people off of drugs.
Dave: Wow. So my new protocol apparently [00:32:30] is, I'm going to use the N101 toothpaste. The CardioSmile, or Breath of [00:32:35] Life. CardioSmile is what we're calling it. Okay, I'm going to use that. Then I'm going to chew up one of the N101 [00:32:40] lozenges, and I'm already chewing up every night after I brush my teeth anyway. Well,
Nathan: let it dissolve.
Dave: Okay, you know what, really, I'm
Nathan: supposed to [00:32:45] suck on it? Suck on it for five to six minutes, because we want a controlled release of it.
Dave: That's a lot to say. Can I [00:32:50] just, like, tuck it up in my cheek and go to sleep? You can do that.
Nathan: If you chew it, you're still going to get the nitric oxide. You're going [00:32:55] to compress the formicokinetics.
Dave: Okay.
Nathan: You're going to get a spike. It's still going to work for you.
Dave: Okay, I could just chew two of [00:33:00] them. Is that the same thing?
Nathan: Just make sure you don't lose an uns you have an unsafe drop in blood pressure and co you'll get [00:33:05] lightheaded. I'll be laying down, who cares. Yeah, okay. You'll direct
Dave: blood flow to other parts of the [00:33:10] body.
Exactly. And, uh, I, I will say, I, you know, people talk to me about all kinds of [00:33:15] hell stuff, and I've had a few friends here in Austin who are in their 30s, like, hey, Dave, like, things aren't working the way they're [00:33:20] supposed to, dude, you're in your 30s, like, what the hell, but we have this testosterone drop everywhere, so I'm like, okay, measure [00:33:25] your levels, get on testosterone, in the meantime, I've literally given them bottles of [00:33:30] your N101 product, just do this before a date, and it works very well, [00:33:35] and, um, I also take microdose Cialis for several [00:33:40] years because better blood flow in the brain really, really makes a difference.
So
Nathan: stack [00:33:45] those, well, those, those drugs. The, the Viagra is the mm-hmm . We call the PD five inhibitors, the low dose Cialis. They're [00:33:50] downstream of nitric oxide. Yep. Right. So they potentiate the effects of nitric oxide. I do both. [00:33:55] So here's the problem. Clinically, we know that 50% of the men that are given Viagra for the past [00:34:00] 26 years
Dave: mm-hmm
Nathan: Don't respond with better erections because these drugs aren't [00:34:05] affecting nitric oxide production. So if you don't respond, that tells us you're not making any nitric [00:34:10] oxide.
Dave: Oh, so then if you give them one of your lozenges, you give
Nathan: them a lozenge, you can turn the non responders into [00:34:15] responders and you can lower the dose, making it safer, more effective.
So the combination of low dose Cialis [00:34:20] with the lozenge is killer combination.
Dave: All right. I'm going to add this to my, my [00:34:25] protocols. Yeah, I, I imagine that you just. Totally made this podcast go crazy amongst like [00:34:30] swingers and people like the
Nathan: Pfizer's and the people companies who selling the pd5 inhibitors should be sending us [00:34:35] royalties because now because they only have 50 percent 50 percent of their customers get a benefit [00:34:40] now they throw in our nitric oxide they're going to get the benefit.
More sales because now there's 50 percent that [00:34:45] didn't respond are now gonna respond. So thank you very much[00:34:50]
Dave: since we're talking about that kind of stuff What [00:34:55] happened with nitric oxide during kovat?
Nathan: There was a lot of promise around nitric oxide and kovat and there [00:35:00] were lots of published Well lots several maybe half a dozen maybe in a dozen of published papers showing [00:35:05] that patients in critical care Low blood oxygen saturation that didn't get better on [00:35:10] supplemental oxygen.
They would give them inhaled nitric oxide The blood oxygen [00:35:15] saturation would improve And they seem to get better symptomology. The challenge was [00:35:20] people were already been critical in that stage. And in June of 2020, we filed [00:35:25] an IND, which is an investigational drug application, with the FDA for an early [00:35:30] therapeutic around using nitric, our nitric oxide delivery system for an early treatment for COVID.[00:35:35]
Because we knew the people that were getting sick and dying from COVID were the people who were nitric [00:35:40] oxide deficient. The elderly, people with high blood pressure, diabetes, previous heart attack, [00:35:45] kidney disease. These were the people who got sick. Those of us who were [00:35:50] healthy, I've never had COVID. I was exposed to COVID, but I never got sick [00:35:55] from COVID.
So the healthy people respond to viral infections, right? So we got [00:36:00] an IND approved in July. We mobilized a global force to have drug manufactured. We had drug [00:36:05] manufactured, I think by September. We had an IRB approved by November and we were treating [00:36:10] patients with COVID. In December of 2020
Dave: with nitric oxide, with
Nathan: nitric oxide [00:36:15] lozenge
Dave: and what happened
Nathan: the first 100 patients were will be considered a phase one [00:36:20] safety study.
So we would treat them. And these were patients within 72 hours of diagnosis. [00:36:25] So if we caught you within 72 hours of a positive covid test or onset of symptoms. We can enroll you [00:36:30] in our study and either give you a placebo or nitric oxide blossom, and then [00:36:35] our goal was to prevent hospitalization because you remember the problem was the hospitals and ERs being [00:36:40] overrun.
Yeah. Couldn't see patients. Well, and the patients
Dave: they saw, they just killed with [00:36:45] ventilators. There was that.
Nathan: Well, the previous Yeah. First Trump administration were [00:36:50] really champions of what we were doing because we were trying to prevent the [00:36:55] hospitalization and then when the administration changed and they become hell bent [00:37:00] on putting a needle in every arm around the world, early therapeutics were no [00:37:05] longer priority.
So the goalposts were moving and within a hundred in the first hundred [00:37:10] patients, we, we already saw a statistically significant difference. And the two [00:37:15] groups, we didn't unblind it, but we're pretty confident that the placebo group wasn't performing better than the drug [00:37:20] group. We went to the FDA and go, we want emergency youth authorization for this early [00:37:25] therapeutic because even in a hundred patients, we're seeing benefit.
And they told us, [00:37:30] no, complete the study. Because had we had an early therapeutic that was on the market, [00:37:35] they could not legally. Mandate vaccines.
Dave: It has to be frustrating to you [00:37:40] too, because you're a physician, a researcher you understand pathways. A lot of people don't like we [00:37:45] have an answer, right? And I was so naive.
I thought, oh, you know, this [00:37:50] is going to be the moment for ozone therapy because ozone therapy helps as well. So [00:37:55] finally, it's going to go mainstream because this can just fix everyone. And I realized the motivation wasn't to fix everyone. It was [00:38:00] to make sure people were sick so they could sell one treatment even if it didn't work.
And man, that makes me [00:38:05] mad.
Nathan: No, for sure. And they sell us the bill of goods, right? They said it's going to prevent transmission, which it didn't. It's going to [00:38:10] prevent illness, which it didn't. It's going to prevent hospitalization, which it didn't. It's going to prevent death. It didn't. It [00:38:15] accelerated all of that.
Dave: Oh, it's so disgusting. A lot of people who [00:38:20] had COVID got brain fog. In fact, a lot of people who didn't get COVID have brain fog. It's kind of a [00:38:25] thing that happens when you're under lighting and bad food. Just the, the world we built, right? [00:38:30] Do we have any evidence that increasing nitric oxide helps in real time with brain fog?
Or [00:38:35] does it take a while?
Nathan: Well, yeah, I mean, brain fog is really hypo perfusion, right? We call that focal [00:38:40] ischemia. So if you take patients who report brain fog or mild cognitive impairment, any [00:38:45] neurological disease and do spec scans or functional MRIs, you can demonstrate through noninvasive [00:38:50] imaging, there's reduced blood supply to that part of the brain, different regions of the brain, focal [00:38:55] ischemia, hypoxia, and all that's because your blood vessels can't produce nitric oxide to dilate, to improve [00:39:00] perfusion.
When we look at COVID, the COVID related effects. [00:39:05] So the spike protein binds to the ACE2 receptor. If your body can't make nitric oxide, you get [00:39:10] an up regulation of the H2 receptor. So there's more target for the virus to bind to, the spike [00:39:15] protein. If your body makes sufficient nitric oxide, you down regulate the H2 receptor.
So [00:39:20] there's no target for the spike protein to bind to. That's why people who are replete in nitric oxide are [00:39:25] resistant to COVID, resistant to flu, resistant to RSV, really any [00:39:30] respiratory virus. And then if it attacks and binds, what does our body's innate immune [00:39:35] system do? Mobilize an immune response. We go to the site of attachment.
We produce nitric oxide by our [00:39:40] macrophages and neutrophils, and we shut down viral replication. You can't make nitric oxide. The virus [00:39:45] attaches, replicates in the body, propagates throughout the body. Now you have spike protein all over your blood [00:39:50] vessels, clogs up the arteries. Platelets start to stick.
You get blood clots. You get D dimer [00:39:55] formation, heart attacks, strokes, brain fog. Wow. There's your mechanism.
Dave: So how many [00:40:00] lozenges a day? Is it going to take to keep my nitric oxide levels where they need to be?
Nathan: We know [00:40:05] everybody's different. It's hard to prescribe a one size fits all, but I developed [00:40:10] that lozenge for a very specific reason, based on the known formico kinetics and formico dynamics [00:40:15] of once nitric oxide is produced, where does it go?
What does it become? [00:40:20] And so based on that, we know that the formico kinetics have, you know, twice a day, one, 12 hours [00:40:25] apart. If I want to treat kind of proactively or prophylactically to maintain [00:40:30] optimal nitric But we know some people, and we published on this in 2011, a 15 year old [00:40:35] kid with a very rare genetic disorder needed one every four hours to manage [00:40:40] his blood pressure because he was resistant to all prescription medications.
And when we saw him, his [00:40:45] blood pressure was 200 over 115 in the pediatric intensive care unit. We dosed him with the [00:40:50] lozenge, within four hours, it was 130 over 80.
Dave: Wow, completely restored it.
Nathan: Completely restored it. And [00:40:55] within five days, we reversed his kidney disease. Within five months, we reversed his heart disease.
[00:41:00] Simply by giving nitric oxide and we got him off prescription medication. So here's what we [00:41:05] know. We know that one lozenge every four hours is safe. Okay. In a 15 year [00:41:10] old kid. So beyond that, we just don't have any clinical data. But if you want to take it [00:41:15] prophylactically and be proactive, I think one lozenge twice a day is sufficient.
Dave: Okay. Now, I do [00:41:20] live in Austin and couldn't I just go out and do some whippets in nitrous oxide? [00:41:25]
Nathan: Well, I think that's isoamyl nitrite, the, the, the whippers, [00:41:30] it's just nitrous oxide nitrous. Yeah. So nitrous oxide is [00:41:35] in two. Oh, yep. Right. That's the dental anesthetic laughing.
Dave: Yeah. People like to use that. [00:41:40]
Nathan: Yeah.
So nitric oxide is in. Oh, so they're both gases, but complete. [00:41:45] Physiological, different physiological
Dave: functions. Exactly. That was what I was hoping you would say. Because there [00:41:50] will be people listening who hear nitric oxide and they think nitrous oxide. So, [00:41:55] do you know the metabolic damage that comes from using nitrous oxide?
[00:42:00] I don't know if that's part of your science or
Nathan: not. No, it's not. I mean, we've certainly familiar with the [00:42:05] denitrification pathway from, From ammonia or from, um, nitrate all the way down to elemental [00:42:10] ammonia and nitrous oxide is part of that denitrification, but haven't studied a lot.
Dave: So [00:42:15] using nitrous oxide can have really profound negative effects on the brain, [00:42:20] especially people get hooked on it, just do it all the time, big areas of inactivation, [00:42:25] and it's also a mitochondrial toxin at those levels.
So you do not want to be [00:42:30] doing yeah, don't confuse the two and I think it also probably makes peroxynitrate at high levels I [00:42:35] remember I but so guys Nitric oxide good, nitrous [00:42:40] oxide bad, and what about nitrate that's in food, like the [00:42:45] celery powder and bacon and all the green stuff you're saying, we can't use that, right?
Nathan: No, that's, I mean, it's [00:42:50] a, it's a cardioprotective molecule. So this whole story, this myth, [00:42:55] similar to cholesterol causing heart disease, A myth perpetuated in the medical sciences [00:43:00] that nitrite cured bacon and hot dogs would cause cancer, right? That started in the 1950s, [00:43:05] and then the nutritional epidemiologists had a, they were looking for a biologically plausible [00:43:10] mechanism, right?
So nitrite would form nitrosamines. Nitrosamines [00:43:15] cause cancer. Therefore, nitrite causes cancer. If A equals B and B equals C, then A equals [00:43:20] C. The problem is, And we started on this about 25 years ago. [00:43:25] If that were true, vegetarians would have 10 times higher rates of cancer [00:43:30] than meat eaters. And we know it's just the opposite, right?
If you look at epidemiological data, they have [00:43:35] lower
Dave: It's because vegetables are full of nitrate, so nitrate isn't the cause.
Nathan: 85 percent of our [00:43:40] nitrate and nitrite burden comes from vegetables. Exactly. 5 percent comes from cured meats. The [00:43:45] other 10 percent comes from swallowing her own saliva.
Dave: So you can't blame the bacon for that [00:43:50] anymore.
Nathan: Bacon makes everything better.
Dave: There you go. And I went really deep [00:43:55] on this because I used to cure my own bacon. Cause I raised organic pigs on my regenerative [00:44:00] farm and carrying on bacon is like way better than sourdough for all you weird fermentation [00:44:05] people. I'm not that I'm opposed to a good sourdough, but you know what I'm saying?
You put bacon on it. It's better. [00:44:10] So. I use pink salt, which is just nitrate because that's what the [00:44:15] evidence says.
Nathan: Well, nitrite is the curing salt, right? If you go [00:44:20] back thousands of years ago, before refrigeration, the early cavemen would use sea salt.
Dave: [00:44:25] Yeah.
Nathan: And they would put it on the muscle of the meat, right?
And then there was [00:44:30] bacteria on there. So the bacteria would reduce the nitrate to nitrite. Nitrite would [00:44:35] bind to the iron of myoglobin and form this nitrozyl heme Which is the color of [00:44:40] cured meat.
Dave: Mm hmm.
Nathan: So you need bacteria to utilize nitrate hence the microbiome. [00:44:45]
Dave: Yeah,
Nathan: or you just use The nitrite salt and it
Dave: it's the curing [00:44:50] agent.
So there you go guys. It's not the bacon That's the problem and saying that it's [00:44:55] nitrate free, but has celery powder That's called wishful thinking because celery powder [00:45:00] is night is nitrate, right? We published in
Nathan: 2010 we published a paper [00:45:05] showing that no nitrite added bacon You Had three times more nitrite [00:45:10] than nitrite cured bacon.
Dave: I love it. There is one thing that [00:45:15] commercial bacon has, and my bacon had, you put a tiny amount of vitamin C in there and it completely [00:45:20] blocks nitrosamine formation. So you don't have to worry about it. So that said, I [00:45:25] think you got to be careful on the quality of the pig your bacon comes from, but that's a different animal, so to speak.
[00:45:30] Okay. So we talked about all that confusion between, you know, nitrous and nitric [00:45:35] and, yep. Nitrate. What about nitrite versus nitrate? What's the difference in those?
Nathan: Nitrite is a two [00:45:40] electron reduction product of nitrate, right? Nitrate is a nerd in humans. Nitrite is [00:45:45] biologically active,
Dave: okay?
Nathan: So you don't need bacteria to utilize nitrite because when nitric [00:45:50] oxides produced in the body, it forms nitrite and actually forms [00:45:55] nitrate from the reaction with the oxyhemoglobin in the red blood cell.
So when you produce nitric [00:46:00] oxide, your body's naturally producing nitrite and nitrate. So these are naturally occurring, [00:46:05] naturally produced molecules.
Dave: Perfect. So you don't have to worry about that stuff. No,
Nathan: and look, our [00:46:10] kidneys reabsorb it.
Dave: Because it's so toxic.
Nathan: Yeah. I mean, 25 percent of our [00:46:15] nitrate that we make in our body is reabsorbed in our kidneys.
And then 25 percent of that is [00:46:20] concentrated in our salivary glands. And that's meant to recycle these very important metabolites [00:46:25] so we can, our body can continuously make nitric oxide.
Dave: Wow. Okay. So it's a beautiful [00:46:30] system.
Nathan: The body is a lot smarter than we are, Dave.
Dave: Ah, I think you're right about that.
[00:46:35] What does a carnivore diet do to nitric oxide production and why should we care?
Nathan: Whenever one you're getting [00:46:40] amino acids to make nitric oxide through the nitric oxide synthase enzyme, but I think [00:46:45] most importantly It's the elimination of sugar that leads to dysfunction of the nitric oxide [00:46:50] synthase enzyme And without sugar you're maintaining oral microbiome as long as you're not using [00:46:55] fluoride and and the septic mouthwash And so I think the the carnivore diet [00:47:00] it's not so much as what it is I mean, it's good protein right good fats, but it's what [00:47:05] it's not It's not sugar, it's not refined carbohydrates, it's going to lead to an increase in blood sugar, increase in insulin.[00:47:10]
Dave: But earlier you said carnivore diet wasn't something you recommended, but it sounds like it doesn't [00:47:15] harm nitric oxide production?
Nathan: It doesn't harm nitric oxide production. I'm a fan of a carnivore [00:47:20] diet. Okay. Of a keto diet. I eat probably similar to you. Yeah. I eat a lot of red meat. [00:47:25] Mm hmm. Uh, I do eat some carbs.
Okay. Limited carbs. Yeah, I'm keto. It doesn't seem to spike insulin, [00:47:30] yeah.
Dave: Okay. So you're a general fan of it. And if people are eating a standard American diet, [00:47:35] which probably does just completely destroy nitric oxide production. Absolutely. Um, [00:47:40] then doing a lozenge twice a day would be necessary, [00:47:45] right?
Nathan: It's absolutely necessary because it's probably going to be the only source of nitric oxide their body's getting. Because if [00:47:50] you're in the standard American diet, you're sedentary and living in standard American lifestyle, your body can't make nitric [00:47:55] oxide. That's why you have high blood pressure.
That's why you have ED. That's why you have metabolic disease. Wow. Yeah. And [00:48:00] so if you, if you're doing an, and you're taking an antiseptic and you're taking an antacid and you're on a [00:48:05] cholesterol lowering medication, the only source, because people leave me all the time, well, I'm on a [00:48:10] PPI and I've been taking it for 20 years, so I can't take your lozenge.
And I go, no, you [00:48:15] absolutely have to take my lozenge. My lozenge overcomes all that. If your body can't make it because you're on, [00:48:20] uh, you're taking a mouthwash, you're taking a cholesterol medication, or you're taking an antacid, that [00:48:25] lozenge delivers nitric oxide the same in every single person. It's not dependent upon your bacteria.
It's not dependent [00:48:30] upon stomach acid. If you can't do it, we do it for you.
Dave: That's really powerful. So if you're on a proton pump [00:48:35] inhibitor, number one, you're listening to the show for a while. Why are you doing that? That's right. There's better [00:48:40] ways, right? If you've learned one thing, get all finished. Yeah.
And if you're on a statin, then you're probably [00:48:45] not on a longevity program. I hate to tell you that for sure. And you might wanna fix that, uh, by going off [00:48:50] of it and eating some goddamn butter . And if I just made you hate me, my brother, if I just made you [00:48:55] angry and you're a physician, well, here's the better physician.
I'm kidding. . But here, here's, here's a, a very well qualified [00:49:00] physician in the room is saying there's a point to that, and I would just say, if you're worried about it. [00:49:05] Do what we're talking about take some nitric oxide and eat [00:49:10] a keto diet, high in fat, all that stuff. Go off the statins and measure what's going [00:49:15] on in the lining of your arteries.
LP PLA2 is my favorite lab marker to tell you, is there [00:49:20] inflammation of the lining of the arteries. So if the scary cholesterol is the [00:49:25] problem, or if the statin was helping, well then you should see an increase in problems, and you [00:49:30] won't.
Nathan: Yeah, and your vitamin D levels will be better, your testosterone levels will be better, and you'll feel better.[00:49:35]
Wow. Your cell membrane will actually be better and healthier.
Dave: Okay, so there's a pretty strong [00:49:40] argument for this. I'm, I'm working on this problem. I take [00:49:45] 150 supplements a day. I have the world's most expensive pee, uh, more expensive [00:49:50] even than my friend, Brian Johnson, right? You know, it's a race to have expensive pee, I guess.
[00:49:55] And. I don't mind. People say, well, you might pee some of it out. I'm like, great. Then I had sufficiency and it was probably [00:50:00] good for my kidneys anyway, because I know what I'm taking. And most people are not willing to do that. It [00:50:05] costs around three grand a month for me to do that, depending, [00:50:10] depending on whether I'm taking some of the real expensive stuff.
Uh, like some of the peptides and whatnot could be up to five grand a [00:50:15] month. So people are saying, what, what is the minimum set of really [00:50:20] important things I should do? And I haven't published a like a post on that. And I'm putting a lot [00:50:25] of that knowledge in the app for Upgrade Labs, the Axo app that anyone can get [00:50:30] a rematch with the blood test.
But it really feels to me like the [00:50:35] N101 lozenges that you make ought to be on that list because the more foundational it [00:50:40] is, the more I'm going to recommend it. Like, I make a broad spectrum mineral [00:50:45] formula, you know, the, the minerals 101 and I put it in the coffee, a different type of things, because those are [00:50:50] things that affect almost every pathway via mitochondria, protein synthesis and things like that.
[00:50:55] But nitric oxide seems to be equally important.
Nathan: Well, if you want to deliver nutrients and [00:51:00] vitamins to every cell in the body.
Dave: Yeah.
Nathan: But yet those cells aren't getting adequate blood [00:51:05] supply because you have microvascular dysfunction. Right. You can, it's a, it's like I 35, [00:51:10] right? You got a traffic jam. You can't, you're not, your cargo is not going to be delivered.
So if you take [00:51:15] the N 1 0 1 before you start taking your supplements, we're going to dilate the blood vessels. We're going to open up the [00:51:20] microcirculation. Not before,
Dave: after. You should swallow your big handfuls of pills and then take it, because by the time the capsules [00:51:25] open in the stomach, the nitric oxide should be there, right?
Nathan: I mean, either immediately before or after.
Dave: [00:51:30] Yeah.
Nathan: But you know, we see the blood pressure the vascular compliance effects last, you [00:51:35] know, men, tens of minutes, hours after. Okay,
Dave: so it doesn't really matter. So basically take it before or after whichever [00:51:40] one. That's
Nathan: right. And now we're going to take, uh, you know, a traffic jam on 35 and clear it out.
Now you've got a four [00:51:45] lane highway and we're going to better deliver that cargo.
Dave: All right. Dr. Nathan [00:51:50] Bryan. You've done some incredible research work, just years and years of major [00:51:55] discoveries on this, you have a very clear scientific picture of how this works, we know the [00:52:00] mechanisms, we know the pathways, it's well established, it's been proven, there's been a Nobel Prize in this [00:52:05] field, and medicine has yet to catch up, so.
Just consider me a fan [00:52:10] of the stuff you do and thanks for supporting the biohacking conference [00:52:15] and for coming on the show multiple times and I'm serious. I actually take that lozenge every [00:52:20] night when I go to bed and if I don't, I notice the difference. So,
Nathan: well, look, you look great. I think you [00:52:25] feel great.
So whatever you're doing, um, You know, I always tell people keep doing what's working.
Dave: I do, [00:52:30] and we didn't talk much about it on this episode about topical, but I use the [00:52:35] the, the N one oh one serum. You call it a serum. I was like, it's a, what do you call it? It's got two pumpy things you mix together, [00:52:40] but basically yeah, dual
Nathan: chamber serum.
Dave: You do the dual chamber and mix it up and then if I put it on my face, you [00:52:45] can see it turn red. Not 'cause there's any red coloring there 'cause it's blood that just goes right there. There. [00:52:50]
Nathan: So you can see it. It's the it's a game changer in skin care and beauty. It's, you don't have to wonder if this product's [00:52:55] working for you.
You can really see it working for your eyes.
Dave: Well, here's the question just to end the show. [00:53:00] So what if I was to accidentally spill some of that and another area within skin that [00:53:05] can expand a little bit? It'll get
Nathan: the wrinkles
Dave: out.[00:53:10]
You heard it here first. So it does work topically for, [00:53:15] uh, intimate activities.
Nathan: Well there's a, there's a limit of diffusion of NO gas into the [00:53:20] tissue, so it's not going to penetrate deep into the corpus cavernosum, like the massive, but here's what we're finding. [00:53:25] There may be self experimentation maybe maybe feedback that if you if you have good [00:53:30] erection, it's going to amplify The erection if you have severe ed, it's not going to [00:53:35] raise the dead
Dave: You're going to need to do it orally and probably that's right
Nathan: But yeah, we say, you know hit it from the [00:53:40] inside out take the lozenge open up the microcirculation internally apply it topically Dilate the [00:53:45] the superficial blood vessels and you're off to the races.
It's
Dave: time to party. All right Thanks again [00:53:50] Thank you, dave See you next time on the human upgrade [00:53:55] podcast