Tom: [00:00:00] One of the people on our board of directors is a former astronaut. We've got a whole idea of what's going to be [00:00:05] needed for people going to Mars and people going to the
Dave: moon. There's a couple studies showing that a [00:00:10] mismatch of mitochondrial DNA with nuclear DNA equals animals that don't thrive.
Tom: The way [00:00:15] nature keeps us from aging too quickly in our mitochondria is just by giving us a ton of them in the [00:00:20] beginning.
We have 500, 000 copies of the mitochondrial DNA in each [00:00:25] egg cell. We're going to try to fix their mitochondria, grow a bunch of those, and then flush out their bacteria. [00:00:30] Bad ones and replace them with good ones. Wow.
Dave: When you fix them, are you crisping [00:00:35] them, or how do you do that?
Host: This is Tom Benson, a molecular biologist who's been asking one [00:00:40] bold question for over a decade.
What if we could take out your tired old mitochondria, give them an [00:00:45] upgrade and put them back in better than before from reversing disease to enhancing human? [00:00:50] He's working at the edge of what's possible for science to ever accomplish.
Tom: If you want to be a [00:00:55] good skier, you want the Eskimo mitochondria. If you want to be a really good long distance runner in the [00:01:00] Olympics, then you want the Ethiopian
Dave: mitochondria.
If it's okay to fix [00:01:05] mitochondria that have some problems and reintroduce them, can I take my perfectly good mitochondria, [00:01:10] give them some superpowers, and then introduce them back in? You're [00:01:15] listening to The Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.[00:01:20]
This is an episode that I am so excited to do for you. [00:01:25] And the reason is that I have fantasized about upgrading my mitochondria [00:01:30] for 25 years. It's been just a thing, right? I understand I [00:01:35] have unusual biochemistry in my cells and I understand how mitochondrial networks work. [00:01:40] I'm a network engineer by training.
And Tom Benson, who's our guest today, Well, [00:01:45] you're a scientist, an inventor, tech entrepreneur, and you've only started [00:01:50] three high tech Silicon Valley companies. And now you're working on a company [00:01:55] called Mitrex. Am I saying it right? Mitrex? [00:02:00] Mitrex.
Tom: Mitrex.
Dave: All right. And you're looking at, Oh my gosh, can we [00:02:05] take mitochondria, harvest them, restore them, and transfuse them?
And the answer is [00:02:10] yes, we can. And I want to do it. How do I sign up? So
Tom: I always tell people, I say my [00:02:15] goal is to pump as many younger versions of your mitochondria back into you as [00:02:20] we can get in there. I'm not trying to be too, like, I'm not like saying, oh, I'm going to put, you know, I could send them, [00:02:25] maybe I can send them to specific organs, but remember, we're not going to try to be too tricky in the beginning.
[00:02:30] We're just trying to do the basics. And the basics is, you know, for [00:02:35] people who haven't seen any of this data before, What, what, what. [00:02:40] Aging scientists have really come to grips with, is that [00:02:45] aging is caused by the accumulation, we think it's caused by the [00:02:50] accumulation of damage to the genetic structure of [00:02:55] mitochondria and the nucleus.
Okay, so they're both declining as you get older and [00:03:00] older and older. And of course the nucleus is better protected and it's more careful, it's [00:03:05] got better quality control, so maybe it ages slower. The mitochondria is [00:03:10] simpler and you start out with zillions of copies of it. The nature, the way [00:03:15] nature keeps us from aging too quickly in our mitochondria, it's just by giving us a ton of [00:03:20] them in the beginning.
We have 500, 000 copies of the [00:03:25] mitochondrial DNA in each egg cell, 300, 000 to 500, 000. And it's just [00:03:30] sheer numbers. That's just the way I like, like, you know, the nucleus has got this whole [00:03:35] different system of quality control for mitochondria. It's just sheer numbers. Okay. [00:03:40] And the other thing I always tell people is to remember that you are 10 percent [00:03:45] mitochondria, 10 percent of your body is mitochondria.
[00:03:50] Okay. So You're a, and they're all running like crazy generating energy and [00:03:55] they're little, they're like little jet, they're little jet turbines buzzing away. [00:04:00] And, you know, so you, when, when Yoda says we are energy beings, it's really [00:04:05] true. We are energy beings. Okay. Luminous beings are we, [00:04:10] not this crude matter.
If it wasn't for all that energy, we'd all just [00:04:15] collapse into a pile of, a puddle of goo, right? So, those mitochondria [00:04:20] are there. Yeah. I mean, your Buddhist friends are right. It's, it's [00:04:25] all these things are going to come together. And the science. supports it. [00:04:30] The other thing I always want like to mention is that, but the mitochondria are a billion years old.
And for the [00:04:35] first, for the first 500 million years, it was just single cell animals or maybe [00:04:40] two or whatever it is, 400 million years. So they had 400 million years to perfect [00:04:45] themselves. And then we came along, they built us, like we were built by the [00:04:50] mitochondria.
Dave: Yes. So,
Tom: yeah, these are, these are the things [00:04:55] to remember.
Dave: It's funny back when mitochondria first kind of became a thing around [00:05:00] 1990, really, we started talking about it. Right. I had chronic fatigue syndrome and my [00:05:05] career was taken off in Silicon Valley. I'm like, I think I have a power plant problem here. So I just [00:05:10] became obsessed with mitochondria and all the things you can do.
And [00:05:15] we have a very similar view now from what you just said. One of the things that [00:05:20] That came across my awareness is that you can look at mitochondria as [00:05:25] the the wiring diagram,
Tom: right?
Dave: And then you also have the [00:05:30] physical infrastructure like the walls and the building line, which is nuclear DNA, right?
[00:05:35] and there's a couple studies showing that a mismatch of mitochondrial DNA with nuclear [00:05:40] DNA equals Animals that don't thrive and that's right. He was done in sparrows, right? [00:05:45] So you're growing mitochondria, large numbers of them [00:05:50] in a vat, right? Now, are you growing my mitochondria or are you growing [00:05:55] someone else's?
No, no, your mitochondria. So I, I want like, who's [00:06:00] mitochondria would I want? Like I want, Hmm.
Tom: Well, all right. Let me tell [00:06:05] you, here's my, I'm going to tell you something is very speculative. I actually [00:06:10] have one of our volunteers for our group. actually went out and did a mitochondrial [00:06:15] study. You can get these for 140 bucks.
You can get your mitochondrial haplotype, right? And this [00:06:20] person did a mitochondrial haplotype and they found out that they had Inuit. [00:06:25] Eskimo mitochondria, literally. Okay. They had the same type as, as the Eskimos. And, [00:06:30] and so I said, do you get, do you get like overheated really or easy? And she [00:06:35] said, yeah, because I, I have this theory that, that [00:06:40] mitochondria have very subtle little changes that they've evolved as we've, as the human race [00:06:45] migrated around the world.
If you take a mitochondria from an Ethiopian and a [00:06:50] mitochondria from an Eskimo, they have different. Energy production,
Dave: [00:06:55] yes,
Tom: levels, and they keep though. So if you want to run, they, so [00:07:00] the point is, if you want to be a good skier, you want the Eskimo mitochondria. If you want to be a really [00:07:05] good long distance runner and the Olympics and you want the Ethiopian mitochondria.
Okay, [00:07:10] because they're going to produce different amounts of waste heat.
Dave: It makes so much sense. [00:07:15] And the difficulty is that if you have Yeah. say the Ethiopian [00:07:20] sourced mitochondrial DNA, but you have a hardware package that's [00:07:25] Northern European. You're probably not going to perform as well as if there's a better match.
Tom: I think, [00:07:30] I think that when the, when the, when conception happens, [00:07:35] there's this magic where the nuclear DNA builds itself from the two, [00:07:40] from the two, you know, male and female, the chromosomes rearranged, [00:07:45] and then it's got to negotiate with the mitochondria. And of course, the mitochondria comes straight from the mother.
[00:07:50] There's no male or female mitochondria. It's all maternal. And so it's like two different [00:07:55] worlds. They're alien species because the mitochondrial DNA is a [00:08:00] bacterial DNA and our nuclear DNA is a chromosomal DNA and [00:08:05] they're completely different chemistry even. Okay. So I think there must be some sort of [00:08:10] negotiation process and, and maybe.
Mixing a northern [00:08:15] European nuclear DNA with a mitochondrial an Ethiopian mitochondrial DNA, I [00:08:20] mean, it might be a great combination, you know,
Dave: It can be both. And, [00:08:25] and since there is no really, it's very rare to find, Oh, I only have [00:08:30] in northern European or, you know, South American DNA, our DNA has been mixed pretty [00:08:35] effectively.
So we all have like random building diagrams and then we just want a wiring [00:08:40] diagram that matches it. And. My theory, and this is very speculative, but [00:08:45] it was in my fertility book the only cells that have 100, 000, up to 600, 000 [00:08:50] mitochondria are ovarian tissue. So, I think those mitochondria have all that [00:08:55] power and all that compute because they're trying to decide which egg to drop based on the [00:09:00] environment around.
So, like, this is the egg that will thrive at this latitude with this kind of sunshine, this kind of nutrient, [00:09:05] this kind of temperature, and then that egg selects the right sperm, which is the source of half the nuclear [00:09:10] DNA. And like, that's how it has to work, at least in my engineering view of things, right?
Well,
Tom: [00:09:15] that's, that's very speculative. Of course, yeah. Ha! I [00:09:20] won't go there. I have so much speculation already that people nail me for. I'm going to [00:09:25] let you enjoy that one. And oh, yeah, I
Dave: get nailed all the time. It makes me laugh. And then I [00:09:30] just make fun of their mitochondria. I just, you know,
Tom: your, your mitochondria are weak.
But yeah, so [00:09:35] back to your question, our goal is to build an external bioreactor and to take [00:09:40] somebody who's 85, 90 years old and take their. [00:09:45] Mitochondria. And actually what we're doing is we're taking their stem cells, we take them from their body, but they've [00:09:50] got so they have damaged old mitochondria.
Okay. Also, we could take [00:09:55] people. There are kids who are born with mutated mitochondria from birth, and it's [00:10:00] horrible. They don't they don't live. I mean, it's a fatal disease, and it's completely [00:10:05] incurable. And It runs in families, and uh, [00:10:10] so, from my perspective, curing a kid with damaged mitochondria from [00:10:15] birth and curing an adult with damaged mitochondria from just living long [00:10:20] enough to accumulate all that damage, that's for me really the same job, [00:10:25] okay?
Dave: It really looks the same. Here's a question, though. If the [00:10:30] child has a genetic problem, if you culture mitochondria with a damaged problem, are you just [00:10:35] making more damaged mitochondria? Okay,
Tom: so we take their stem cells, we put them in our gadget, our [00:10:40] bioreactor. Step one is we have to fix the mitochondria, okay?
So I don't want to [00:10:45] grow a bunch of 90 year old mitochondria and just pump them back in. That's not doing any good. I have to find [00:10:50] a way to reverse the age of the mitochondria to make them healthy. 20 or 30 or [00:10:55] something, and then you try to push as many of those as you can into the 90 year old body, [00:11:00] and then you end up with maybe 60 on average, you know, you're kind of, it's like [00:11:05] mixing black paint, white paint, you're never going to get perfectly white again, but you can get it to gray.
[00:11:10] Okay. And so we're trying to, trying to flush out it. All the old [00:11:15] mitochondria in the case of the children. It's exactly the same thing. We're going to try to fix their mitochondria, [00:11:20] grow a bunch of those, and then flush out their bad ones and replace them with good ones.
Dave: [00:11:25] When you fix them, are you crispering them?
Or how do you do that?
Tom: That's I can't talk [00:11:30] about that.
Dave: That's okay. Got it. That's the secret sauce.
Tom: That's the secret sauce. [00:11:35] And it's so, I mean, we're talking way on the edge of edge of [00:11:40] science right now. It's the coolest stuff though.
Dave: Okay, I gotta ask this then. If it's [00:11:45] okay to fix mitochondria that have some problems and reintroduce them, [00:11:50] can I take my perfectly good mitochondria, give them some superpowers, and then introduce them back in?
Tom: [00:11:55] Maybe, 50 years from now. You know, we have to, right now, that's why I always tell people, I'm focused on [00:12:00] one thing at a time, okay? I respect that. Just doing what's in front of us is [00:12:05] plenty. Okay. And, and the other thing people always ask is they say, well, if you're doing [00:12:10] it, the autogalous approach, autogalous means that you're growing someone own [00:12:15] mitochondria and people always say, well, that's going to be very expensive.
And it is because he's a lot of work [00:12:20] involved. What about just mass producing mitochondria, which means you would have to [00:12:25] find a generic version of the mitochondrial DNA that would not hurt [00:12:30] people. And I mean, if somebody's in the emergency room and they've had a heart attack, you know, you're not going to care.
You're [00:12:35] going to give them whatever you have on hand, right? And by, by the way, emergency room doctors are starting to [00:12:40] look at this for all kinds of emergency. It would make
Dave: sense. I mean, you look at Blood [00:12:45] sepsis, you know, when someone goes into septic shock, it's mitochondrial network shutdown. Put in some [00:12:50] young fresh ones in there and watch what happens, right?
Tom: Well, I wrote a whole paper about that. About [00:12:55] carrying sepsis in mice with mitochondria. We did that. Wow. Two and a [00:13:00] half years ago. So look on our website. You'll find the paper.
Dave: Paul Allen would still be here [00:13:05] today if this was further advanced. Paul
Tom: Allen would still be here today, maybe. [00:13:10] And I, I always. I always feel sad when I say that because, [00:13:15] yeah, I mean, you know, oh, gee, if we just had this, but I mean, you just, you can't think about that too much.
You [00:13:20] just have to go on. So the allergenic question is, I think eventually in [00:13:25] order to scale this up really on a global basis, I mean, I think everybody over the age of [00:13:30] 55 at minimum. should get mitochondrial supplements. I think it's like a [00:13:35] vitamin. I think everybody should just get it.
Dave: I couldn't agree more.
And I've, I've [00:13:40] had my stem cells taken out my bone marrow and my fat cells. I've had them [00:13:45] culture expanded, reintroduced, and I've had my NK cells taken out, culture [00:13:50] expanded and introduced to give me a young, a young immune system. And why wouldn't [00:13:55] we do it with mitochondria?
Tom: The, the mitochondria literally are just a variation of what you [00:14:00] just told me.
I mean, the techniques we're using are the same as what you just described, okay? [00:14:05] Except, we're just doing it optimized for mitochondria, which [00:14:10] means When you got a stem cell treatment, you probably got, you know, maybe 150 million stem [00:14:15] cells, right? We figured that that's about three days worth of youth.
[00:14:20] Okay. It's unfortunately, most stem cell treatments, they're great, but they're just not enough. [00:14:25] Okay. And so what we're trying to do is say, we're going to do [00:14:30] trillions. Trillions of mitochondria, which is the equivalent of 5, [00:14:35] 000 stem cell treatments. That's the goal. But that's, you know, a challenge, of course, to [00:14:40] pull that off.
But if we can pull it off, then instead of three days of youth, maybe we can get years, [00:14:45] right? Or I say youth. I mean, health, you could say health. Same thing, right?
Dave: Yeah, [00:14:50] they kind of go together.
Tom: Health span.
Dave: I'm one of the few people I think, really, is our goal [00:14:55] actually just healthspan? I would like to live twice as long with my health.
So healthspan to me is [00:15:00] like, it's a weak goal. Come on.
Tom: It's, it's a little bit of a wishy washy term that somebody [00:15:05] invented in order to be politically correct. Okay. Exactly. I use it [00:15:10] all the time. And my, you know, My people are like, Oh, Tom, you're going to be more careful. You don't sound like you're being too extreme, [00:15:15] but people in the know, know when you say health span, what are you really talking about?
Dave: We're talking about [00:15:20] life extension and everyone extension. Yeah.
Tom: Or at the very least, you know, [00:15:25] we're going to be 60 up until we're a hundred. And then, you know, I don't know who, nobody knows [00:15:30] what's going to happen. But like when we do the tests in animals, we don't [00:15:35] actually spend a lot of time worrying about lifespan.
What we do is focus on can we [00:15:40] reverse their. Their physical age. in the moment. So [00:15:45] can I take a mouse and give it, and we do this all the time, give them a whole bunch of [00:15:50] mitochondria and maybe exosomes too. And then can I look a [00:15:55] month later and see that that mouse has became 30 percent stronger and [00:16:00] 30 percent better cognition and can knock out sepsis.[00:16:05]
And we've done all three of those things. We've done strength, we've done cognition, and we've done immune [00:16:10] system function and they all work.[00:16:15]
Dave: How much does it cost with the research levels you're doing now to do this [00:16:20] for a human? Is this like a half a million dollar thing? Is that We don't,
Tom: we don't, we don't even know. I mean, there's no way to say right [00:16:25] now. Okay. So, got it. It's, that's like saying how much is it gonna cost to go and rebuild [00:16:30] some old Castle in Scotland somewhere?
Well, nobody knows. You gotta go look, you know, it's like [00:16:35] nobody's tried it before, so,
Dave: wow. This is so cool.
Tom: It's, right now, it's about getting the [00:16:40] funding to do the research and get the, the first, I mean, we wanna do [00:16:45] five people. And just to do the first five people, I mean, that, you know, that's expensive, [00:16:50] but that's true of any, I mean, people are out blowing billions of dollars on all kinds of longevity [00:16:55] ideas.
So this is, yeah, yeah,
Dave: this is a very well founded idea that's [00:17:00] worthy of funding if anything ever was, uh, that's my
Tom: argument. Yeah,
Dave: I've [00:17:05] done, um, consulting work for multiple longevity venture funds and. I've [00:17:10] invested in some things in the space, and this is the kind of thing that's worth backing.
Tom: You know, it's very interesting.
I'll [00:17:15] just say one thing about funding. Having now been through it, of course, I [00:17:20] wasn't in biotech, so I don't know. I didn't know what I was getting into when I started the biotech thing. [00:17:25] You know, we've, we've raised about 4 million, which is very little, and we've kept it very [00:17:30] small, very tight, you know, fast moving, small team, the whole bit.
My experience is that [00:17:35] there's this huge difference. And maybe you've noticed this, there's a huge difference [00:17:40] between people, and it's kind of about 55, 60 years old, there's a cutoff. [00:17:45] And the people who are younger are focused on other kinds of longevity, [00:17:50] which is appropriate for them, which is things like, you know, extending what I already [00:17:55] have, which is very inexpensive.
And so I, I'm a big believer in that, right? Like take care of the [00:18:00] mitochondria you have now. Okay, because that's the cheapest way to [00:18:05] get longer health span. Just take care of what you have. Like if you smoke, you're taking 10 years [00:18:10] off your life right there. Whether you get lung cancer or not, you're, you're, [00:18:15] you're just nuking your mitochondria when you smoke.
If you're stressed, like [00:18:20] stress destroys mitochondria. And we all know it instinctively because we've, we [00:18:25] can see it in day to day life. You know, people who have stressful jobs, And the people who [00:18:30] live to be 105 are usually some guy who's like, you know, a hardware store. [00:18:35] And some little town somewhere that's just kind of has an easygoing life or he's a farmer or something [00:18:40] and doesn't worry about things.
Okay. So, [00:18:45] before 55 60, that's where most of the investment goes. And then to [00:18:50] get. The, what we're doing is really for people who are elderly. Okay. That's [00:18:55] reverse
Dave: it. Right.
Tom: Is reversing is much harder and it's much more complicated. And so we're [00:19:00] focused on people who are 75, 80, 85 years old. That's, that's our volunteer [00:19:05] crowd.
And those are mostly the people who, who invest is people who want it for [00:19:10] themselves,
Dave: you know, it seems like a lot of the. the most disruptive [00:19:15] and biggest swing for the fence longevity things are go through that same path. And I've also done gene [00:19:20] therapy. You know, that's not cheap, but I'm willing to overpay for [00:19:25] it because I want the, I want it to work now versus later.
Cause I, I feel like any [00:19:30] longevity thing you can do earlier in life, now the better off you are, because it's very cheap when [00:19:35] you're 16 to keep your healthy mitochondria. And it's very expensive when you're 65 to get [00:19:40] them to be 16 again. So. The highest ROI comes earlier in life.
Tom: That's right.
Dave: Yeah.
Tom: [00:19:45] Going backwards is really expensive.
We're going to get there. I think, I'm convinced we're going to do it. [00:19:50] And it will, I think it's going to give us much longer lifespans. And I think it's worth it because [00:19:55] obvious the cost of, of healthcare is so expensive and the cost of all these [00:20:00] diseases. The good thing about mitochondria is that there's thousands of uses for them in [00:20:05] traditional medicine anyway.
Like I'm working with people who don't have anything to do with longevity. They're just [00:20:10] trying to cure Parkinson's. I
Dave: Oh, yeah.
Tom: Okay. And Parkinson's is a very good, an ALS [00:20:15] and you know, we've looked at retinal diseases, even [00:20:20] glaucoma. It turns out glaucoma may be very much a mitochondrial disease. And so [00:20:25] there's all these opportunities that are not related to longevity.
They're just traditional [00:20:30] medicine. And so, but you still need a bioreactor because you need, there's no real sources of [00:20:35] mitochondria for all these great cures. So we need the bioreactor one way or the other.
Dave: [00:20:40] I was just. Talking with a friend who has Parkinson's and is a billionaire [00:20:45] and. I'm like, you don't have Parkinson's, you have a [00:20:50] mitochondrial disorder and Parkinson's is a symptom of mitochondrial weakness.
It's
Tom: the [00:20:55] expression of the premature mitochondrial weakness.
Dave: Exactly. And it just so happens the most energy [00:21:00] intense part of the brain that makes dopamine, your mitochondria failed there first because you have a systemic mitochondrial [00:21:05] problem. Let's address mitochondria. So I think when your technology matures and becomes [00:21:10] available, Huge numbers of incurable diseases will magically become [00:21:15] curable because mitochondria are foundational to so many things, right?
Tom: Right. I, I, [00:21:20] I am careful not to say magically because, you know, I don't want, you know, it's, it's, it's [00:21:25] complicated. We don't know yet, but the opportunity is huge and we should be chasing it. The other one is [00:21:30] that I've been, I, I have some people in my group who, who, for example, [00:21:35] fluoroquinolone toxicity, which is, which is Cipro.
Okay. [00:21:40] There's actually in statins, there's quite a few drugs that damage mitochondria and we're not paying [00:21:45] attention to that. Okay. And there are people who have [00:21:50] become absolutely damaged. Their lives are destroyed at age [00:21:55] 25, age 35. I mean, I know some people and it's horrible. And [00:22:00] so, um, there's this whole world of.
pharmaceutical interaction with mitochondria that we [00:22:05] have not been really carefully looking at as a, as a, [00:22:10] in medicine, and we have to because we're leaving behind this trail of these, of these [00:22:15] disabled people.
Dave: It's funny at the, the biohacking conference, uh, last year the [00:22:20] guys at me health launched their product, their mitochondrial health assay.
[00:22:25] Oh, yeah. No, I,
Tom: I, we're, we're, we're, we're, we've got one of those big.
Dave: Okay. You [00:22:30] have to be working with Hemal Patel, the PhD behind that. And he's been on the show as well. [00:22:35] Um, cause this really does feel like the future and Sachin Panda's work around [00:22:40] light and mitochondria. So almost every biohack, uh, that I'm, I'm teaching people are [00:22:45] around signaling to the mitochondria, what you want them to do.
So that they'll do [00:22:50] it. And it's really changed my cognitive function, all my markers of aging. [00:22:55] And I do all this stuff, but it seems like everything I do affects mitochondria. Like, oh, [00:23:00] testosterone affects mitochondria. You know, everything. Mitochondria make testosterone. [00:23:05] Exactly. And estrogen too, right?
And, uh, melatonin. A lot of people don't, don't think about [00:23:10] cellular melatonin and that's a big deal, right? And, uh, they actually don't make glutathione, but they power [00:23:15] glutathione production that they then use. And like, it's such an elegant system and it's, it [00:23:20] just seems eminently hackable from the perspective of someone's like, how do I increase performance and [00:23:25] availability of distributed systems, which has been my entire career before I turned biohacker, right?
Tom: Right. [00:23:30] And I'd also mention that like your friend with the Parkinson's, why does one person get [00:23:35] Parkinson's and another person gets ALS and another person gets early onset [00:23:40] Alzheimer's and somebody else might get early sarcopenia or whatever. Uh, you [00:23:45] know, the thing is what they found out and, and actually that paper just came out two weeks ago, there was this [00:23:50] great paper that said that it's Absolutely.
You cannot predict the [00:23:55] distribution of mitochondrial function in the body. Mitochondria kind of randomly scatter [00:24:00] when we're, when we're embryos and sometimes some bad ones get in there and they get [00:24:05] replicated and you end up with a bunch of bad ones in one organ and you end up with good ones in another organ.
Oh, [00:24:10] wow. It's chaotic. And so we're going to be at the point where I [00:24:15] think we need to, well, first of all, we need to do. Nationwide mitochondrial [00:24:20] testing, and so your me screen, we have a test that we've been working on that [00:24:25] is actually looks at the amount of deletions and and damage [00:24:30] in the nuclear in the mitochondrial DNA.
Dave: Oh, wow.
Tom: And we, we have a whole like program where [00:24:35] we've been doing that. We're going to use that as one of our, as one of our tools for our process. [00:24:40] And, um, But even that, like even if you look at the DNA, let's say you look at the [00:24:45] mitochondria from a blood sample, it's going to be completely different from the [00:24:50] mitochondria from a urine sample, or from a skin sample, or from, You know, a spit sample, [00:24:55] the mitochondria your body are all at different levels of health.
[00:25:00] And we think that they're actually being supplemented by the bone marrow. [00:25:05] The bone marrow is kind of the source of truth in, in our model. The [00:25:10] bone marrow stem cells are what are kind of creating all the mitochondria that it's using to supplement the [00:25:15] rest of the body where they're getting burned out.
And this is what most people don't understand. The [00:25:20] mitochondria in your cell, they may not last more than 10, 20 years. And they get burned out. [00:25:25] Because they're under stress, you're running from, you know, predators, whatever you do when [00:25:30] we're in the jungle, right? When you're an animal, you're, you're under stress all the time and that [00:25:35] causes your mitochondria to replicate too quickly to [00:25:40] accommodate the, the emergency.
But when they replicate really quickly, they get damaged really quickly. Their mitochondrial [00:25:45] DNA gets, it's lossy. You get, you get a lot of errors [00:25:50] and, and like transcription errors. It's like a hard disk with a lot of bad sectors. Okay. [00:25:55] And the bone marrow is the source of all the replacement [00:26:00] mitochondria that the body is using to replace the ones that are going bad.
And [00:26:05] our theory is the reason human beings live to be, 85, 90 [00:26:10] years old, whereas an antelope, the same size as us, antelopes only live to be about [00:26:15] 30. Okay, at best. I think the reason is because our bodies are been have [00:26:20] been programmed to ration the mitochondria more carefully and to reduce the [00:26:25] size of the skeletal muscles and do all these things because for humans, long life is a real [00:26:30] as a real survival advantage.
Okay. And so I think that [00:26:35] evolution has been programming mitochondrial usage for all the different species [00:26:40] and Like, we're going to find all this stuff out. It's going to be amazing. I think [00:26:45] the, the, the finding out, as you said, the network administration [00:26:50] aspect of mitochondria in the body, right?
Dave: I've been doing a lot of work on signaling mechanisms [00:26:55] and, and people who are not network engineers, you wouldn't, you wouldn't know that when you pick up a [00:27:00] phone, there's an entirely separate network called SS7 that's setting up your call and it's [00:27:05] invisible to you.
Like, I don't know, there's a connection there. But all the switching, all the stuff that happens, mitochondria [00:27:10] have a bunch of different ways of signaling, and we use light and photons and [00:27:15] electricity and heat and vibration and
Tom: Exosomes, lots of [00:27:20] exosomes. Yeah, lots
Dave: of exosomes, and just Hormones Chemical signaling is kind of a big thing too, right?
[00:27:25] Right. And so there's this beautiful, like Martin Picard, I think, writes about [00:27:30] it the best. There's this beautiful whole garden community. It's like people [00:27:35] who've made kombucha, get that scoby, or you make sourdough and you have the perfect [00:27:40] ferment. We're the same. We're a big scoby there. And there's all these variables that we can [00:27:45] change.
Are you familiar with Dr. Veitch's work?
Tom: No, I'm familiar with [00:27:50] Picard. He's great. I don't know about Veitch.
Dave: Dr. Veitch studied with Hans Krebs [00:27:55] and spent 40 years studying mitochondria and ketones. [00:28:00] And this show was the last, uh, last interview he ever did in his 80s before he [00:28:05] passed. And he talked about how, uh, ionizing radiation when you fly is so [00:28:10] bad for your mitochondrial DNA.
But that the presence of ketone bodies is protective against that. It's [00:28:15] like, we cannot go to space until we hack our mitochondria with ketones. And so [00:28:20] it's connected to like all human flourishing is really mitochondrial flourishing.
Tom: Oh, by the way, [00:28:25] I'll just, I'll just mention one of, one of the people on our board of directors is a former astronaut and he's [00:28:30] a Stanford doctor, a former astronaut who studies radiation.
Okay. The, we've got a whole, [00:28:35] we've got a whole. We've got a whole like idea of what's going to be needed for [00:28:40] people going to Mars and people going to, to the moon. It's going to, we're going to need mitochondrial supplements [00:28:45] for them because that radiation damages mitochondria. Yeah.
Dave: I [00:28:50] once asked the president of SpaceX, I'm like, well, you guys have hardened all the electronics going [00:28:55] to space.
What have you done to harden astronauts? Yeah. And she said, no one's ever asked me that in 17 years. I'm like, [00:29:00] well, you know, there are people thinking about that. You're one of them, obviously. And so I want to harden myself [00:29:05] just for life on planet Earth, you know, then I'll just live longer, but. Phantom going to Mars.
Hey, I want to be hardened for [00:29:10] that too.
Tom: That's right. I mean, the bottom line is, I don't think the human body is quite up [00:29:15] to the job as it is. We're too fragile and we need to not be so fragile, really. We [00:29:20] need to be, we always say, more durable, more resistant to [00:29:25] radiation. Cancer and infections, you know, and [00:29:30] like, I don't think that we're going to be super beings.
I think, you know, I think when you're [00:29:35] 25, that's about as you're about as strong as you're ever going to get. But certainly we can be more resistant as [00:29:40] we get older. And that's what I'm aiming for.
Dave: Do you think we'll ever get to the point where we can add a [00:29:45] USB charging port for us? I mean, they're running electricity.
Why [00:29:50] not? Right.
Tom: Well, this is the next thing. This is the next closest thing, but you know, [00:29:55] one of the things that people don't realize, like people talk about. You know, when, as you get older, you [00:30:00] know, I'm, I'm mature, right? Like I, so I, I'm old enough that I know what's going on. Right. [00:30:05] Got some
Dave: wisdom in there.
Tom: I got some wisdom in there, unfortunately. And, um, [00:30:10] one of the things people always complain about is as you get older, it's harder and harder to keep off the fat, right? [00:30:15] You're like men get this tummy fat and women get the thighs and. [00:30:20] For any mitochondrial person, it's like, oh, well, that's obvious because you're eating the same amount and your body [00:30:25] is supplying all those nutrients in the bloodstream.
But the last mile of [00:30:30] energy conversion is the mitochondria. It's like, it's like, If the, if the cell can't [00:30:35] get those nutrients through the mitochondria, it can't take them in. And so what happens, there's [00:30:40] not enough mitochondria to process all that fuel that you had when you were 30. Now [00:30:45] you're 60, you don't have the same number of mitochondria.
You don't have enough furnaces to burn all the [00:30:50] fuel. And so what happens, it all gets sent off to a dump pile, you know, [00:30:55] which is white. fat and your body's like, Oh, I'll keep it for later. And of course there never is [00:31:00] later because you always, you know, we're, yeah, I've like, so I think if [00:31:05] we can improve the mitochondria, if nothing else, maybe we'll all just be a little slimmer, you know,
Dave: [00:31:10] it appears that that's possible because I was the, you know, the, the [00:31:15] computer hacker from Jurassic Park 1.
I was 300 pounds when I was in Silicon Valley and I'm [00:31:20] 52 and I'm not on, I'm not on a ground bed. I look at you now,
Tom: all right. Yeah, good for you.
Dave: And, [00:31:25] and I, I don't limit my calories at all, right? Because I've literally done everything that I can think [00:31:30] of. And some that I think are going to work, but I'm not sure yet, to make my mitochondria really good [00:31:35] at processing air and food, right?
I think by popularizing this as [00:31:40] the next step beyond stem cells and exosomes, and as a major [00:31:45] part of longevity, as important as NAD even, this, this is, this [00:31:50] is where it's at. Right? I have a couple questions, so I understand this. So, I was blown [00:31:55] away in 2001. There was a book called The Daughters of Eve or The Seven [00:32:00] Daughters of Eve.
Oh, yeah, right. My grandmother, who was a nuclear engineer, actually [00:32:05] sent it to me. And she was so fascinated by this and saying, Oh, there's seven kinds of [00:32:10] mitochondrial DNA. That's true just of Europe, right? Because we didn't have data back then for [00:32:15] other cultures. But so there's what, 30
Tom: 26.
Dave: [00:32:20] Okay.
Tom: One, one per letter.
So it's A through Z.
Dave: A through Z. Okay, cool. Yeah. What [00:32:25] would happen, um, if say someone has, you know, one of the [00:32:30] seven European haplotypes and they get Some other haplotype [00:32:35] infused. Are these mitochondria going to form a new network, become friends, are they going to go to war? Has anyone ever [00:32:40] experimented with this?
We don't know yet. And that's why Do it in mouse and tell me what happens. I gotta [00:32:45] know.
Tom: We've no doubt. We've done. There have been studies, like someone took mouse egg [00:32:50] cells and they took out half the mitochondria and they put in a completely different type. And the mice [00:32:55] lived, but they weren't, it wasn't great.
Okay, they didn't, they weren't, they were runty. Okay, they didn't do well. [00:33:00] On the other hand, there have been, I mean, we've injected mice with vast, we're up to the point where, [00:33:05] in our animal injections, we're up 1 percent of the animal's [00:33:10] mitochondria. Per injection, that's how far we've gotten. And [00:33:15] that's getting to the limit of what the animals can handle.
And so, but we wanted to know how much we could do. [00:33:20] So, you know, in a human being, that's like an unbelievable amount of mitochondria. [00:33:25] Okay. That's 1 percent of your body weight per injection. And, and we, I think this would [00:33:30] be something where you do like these, you would do these every few weeks over the course of a year or [00:33:35] maybe once a month or whatever.
And you slowly build your stock back up. [00:33:40] The reason I want to use your mitochondria is because we don't know yet what happens if we use [00:33:45] someone else's, and it's just another variable we don't want to deal with. Maybe there's a,
Dave: [00:33:50] yeah,
Tom: maybe there's a type, maybe there's a typo mitochondria. See, [00:33:55] maybe after we go through all this, we'll find out that, you know, type L mitochondria actually work [00:34:00] fine for everybody.
And then we could just mass produce those. Okay. We just, [00:34:05] that's going to take research.
Dave: It is going to take research. And I'm so happy you're doing it. Do you [00:34:10] find that the mice who are receiving these high doses of their own mitochondria are [00:34:15] living longer? Like, what do you see?
Tom: They are living longer, but again, I don't like, I don't really trust [00:34:20] mouse life extension, because anything you do with a mouse will make it live longer.
So, no, it's true. There's [00:34:25] like a thousand different things you could do with a mouse that'll make it live 25%. I mean, just take it out and give it, and pet it [00:34:30] once in a while. It's going to live longer, okay? Mice, they're so variable. And [00:34:35] So I don't, we just don't put it, we don't hang our hat on that. We're looking at can we make them [00:34:40] stronger and better cognition and, and improve their immune system?
Because those are [00:34:45] real things that are right in front of us. Okay.
Dave: And they're, they're measurable. And, uh, [00:34:50] I always laugh when you see these, these studies to your point about mice. [00:34:55] Especially from the pharmaceutical industry, they're saying, well, you know, we control for all variables and you go, [00:35:00] Oh, was it a man or a woman who fed the mouse?
Tom: Yeah,
Dave: exactly. Right? [00:35:05] It turns out massive change in cortisol response because mice know that men kill them and women run away. So they're not [00:35:10] afraid of women. I'm like, that's a big variable guys, but they don't
Tom: even know. Right. And, and [00:35:15] is it the nice technician who likes the mice, or is it the technician that doesn't give a [00:35:20] crap?
The mice know that, all right? They totally know. They can bond, and they're very emotional. Mice are [00:35:25] very emotional little guys. Are they, do they have, you know, do they have a piece of fluff to [00:35:30] make a nest out of? Do they have a wheel? Do they have friends? I mean, they're in, they're in, Solitary [00:35:35] confinement really.
So I mean, yeah, I, I, uh, they, they made this, they made [00:35:40] it now where, you know, the FDA is no longer requiring all these animal studies. And I'm, I believe [00:35:45] I'm a believer in that. I don't think animal studies really are very good. So
Dave: they're better than [00:35:50] nothing, but now that we can fully create a virtual cell, uh, for the first time, [00:35:55] thanks to AI, and we can run experiments on that in a way that's pretty [00:36:00] accurate.
Uh, I think it does save a lot of, of messiness and frankly, I have no [00:36:05] problem with eating animals that are treated ethically, but I'd rather not have them suffer in labs [00:36:10] unless it's the only way forward, in which case I'm willing to do that.
Tom: Well, and also mitochondria are so different in [00:36:15] human beings compared to animals that we actually went through this whole process a year ago and we talked [00:36:20] to our 85 year old volunteers and they're like, yeah, there's no point.
Just, [00:36:25] just, let's just try it. You know, they finally, the decision was by the group [00:36:30] that going, trying to do this in animals just wasn't worth it. And we just do it in human beings, start [00:36:35] slow, do it very, very slowly, you know, be very, very careful and, [00:36:40] and do lots of, and that's what our human trials are going to be.
It's just slow increases in [00:36:45] dose.
Dave: Good for you. That is the future. And this idea that a government regulator [00:36:50] says whether a human. Is allowed to take certain risks when they're at the end of their life, or they have a [00:36:55] life that, I'm sorry, that's not a government decision. That's a, that's a me decision.
Uh, and [00:37:00] so, for someone to, who's an 85, saying, you know, I'd like to learn something before I go, and who knows, maybe I'll get some [00:37:05] benefits. Like, I respect that greatly. Like, I think that's, yeah. Well, and,
Tom: and again, there's children, there's children who have these [00:37:10] diseases, and so a lot of my old folk are like, hey, let me be the guinea pig.
I mean, they, they consider that to [00:37:15] be absolutely an honorable thing to do, and in fact, they're, they're just, They're just dying to do it [00:37:20] because they want to do something to help kids. And so
Dave: look at that, see, that's the [00:37:25] innate goodness in humans. And, uh, after I send you the book, [00:37:30] I actually make the case that kindness is wired into our mitochondria.[00:37:35]
Tom: Yeah,
Dave: but only under certain conditions. And I think a lot of our human emotions are actually driven [00:37:40] by a mitochondria network. That is speculative. It just makes sense.[00:37:45]
Tom: The other thing I just want to mention, it's funny because getting back to the very [00:37:50] beginning of our conversation, I said there was all this new research coming out. One of the things I didn't [00:37:55] mention was that You know, the textbook version of mitochondria is that they just sit in the cell [00:38:00] and the cell just remakes them whenever they want.
They're kind of stable, right? What we found [00:38:05] out is that's not true at all. Mitochondria are completely true. You know, this, they, they move [00:38:10] everywhere in the body. They're flowing between cells, cells are loaning [00:38:15] them. Okay. And then being, having them be returned. Stem cells are [00:38:20] mitochondrial loaners. Okay.
They, they have pictures of stem cells [00:38:25] where. There's a cell and it builds a little nanotube to the other cell. And you see that you can [00:38:30] actually see the mitochondria marching down this tube. It's really cool, right? [00:38:35] The body is those tissues. They're all about [00:38:40] keeping everybody healthy because if the cell next to you is dying, that's bad for you.
And [00:38:45] so you're going to loan your mitochondria to them to give them a jump start. Okay. If they've been damaged. [00:38:50] So it is. About kindness. Okay. And even at a [00:38:55] biochemical level, our, our cells are taking care of each other because they're a [00:39:00] society, right? It's like a, it's like a beehive. You know, the beehive is the same kind of thing.
[00:39:05] Bees are these, you know, they have to take care of each other to keep the hive going.
Dave: Is a single mitochondria [00:39:10] sentient?
Tom: I will not speculate on that. Why not? Because [00:39:15] I already have too many I already have too many speculative things out there. I don't know. Let's [00:39:20] put it
Dave: this way. You have a million dollars, and you have to bet on one or the other, and the proceeds go to charity.
[00:39:25] Which one would you bet?
Tom: It would depend on your definition of sentient. Sent it.
Dave: Okay. [00:39:30] I
Tom: just, did you see me just dodge? I just died.
Dave: Absolutely. But now the charity didn't get the [00:39:35] 2 million that was coming their way. But I
Tom: know, I know. I didn't get the money. What can I say?
Dave: [00:39:40] It's a, it's a fair question.
And I think AI is making us really ask questions about what [00:39:45] sentience really is and what consciousness is at all. Um, I am on the side of until [00:39:50] proven otherwise that, that it's very likely that they, that an individual one is, and as a [00:39:55] distributed network, they sure look like they are. Right. And your distributed [00:40:00] systems, multicellular systems can exhibit really complex behaviors, but I mean, that's the thing.
And if you
Tom: [00:40:05] said, does part of our, just part of our intelligence and our [00:40:10] consciousness reside in the mitochondria, I'd say, yeah, hell yeah. Because [00:40:15] You know, the mitochondria in the neurons are, I mean, we're, our, our [00:40:20] thoughts are mitochondrial. Okay. Because where our brain is a bunch of energy [00:40:25] gradients being maintained by those mitochondria.
And they're gone. I mean, you know, the brain is the biggest user of energy in the [00:40:30] whole body. It's got tremendous energy needs, and there's all these [00:40:35] specialized components that, that the mitochondria are very special, um, [00:40:40] in the brain, so, and, and, as you said, these things like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's that [00:40:45] come on, you know, when the mitochondrial When the mitochondria get prematurely [00:40:50] aged, you know, you start getting these mental diseases.
So, and by the way, there's a whole [00:40:55] bunch of work going into looking at mental illnesses in relation to mitochondria. You [00:41:00] probably know, you know about Chris Palmer, right? Dr. Chris Palmer. And. [00:41:05] Autism and schizophrenia and depression, and are they related to [00:41:10] mitochondrial weakness?
Dave: There's some pretty strong evidence that mitochondria and [00:41:15] autism are tightly linked.
I had Asperger's syndrome. It runs in my [00:41:20] family, and I say had because I don't meet the diagnostic criteria anymore. And
Tom: you're on, you're on, you're doing a [00:41:25] keto diet, right? You're on a
Dave: not always. I popularize the keto diet, but I [00:41:30] make sure there's ketones present most of the time. But I eat carbs frequently, but not [00:41:35] excessively.
but for a few years there, I didn't and what I. What I [00:41:40] came to understand from talking with a lot of mitochondrial researchers and autism researchers is that [00:41:45] a characteristic of autism is that mitochondrial energy production is [00:41:50] artificially low. And so when you have that in a kid, that means that their brain is [00:41:55] trying to make sense of a lot of signal processing without enough power.
So it develops low power [00:42:00] algorithms in the brain.
Tom: Yeah, that's good.
Dave: And then you,
Tom: You're a, you're a techie. [00:42:05] You're such a techie. You know, Oh, it's
Dave: stupid. Does it show?
Tom: Yeah.
Dave: All [00:42:10] right. So, but if you think about then, okay, let's reboot the mitochondria with maybe [00:42:15] your technology, right? Or anything else that gets mitochondria working better.
And now all of a sudden you have a brain that's [00:42:20] good. It's good. at low power things, but now it has adequate power, so it's a more efficient brain. And then you have [00:42:25] to fix all the signal processing that the brain never learned, and for me that was like a 10 year journey of [00:42:30] reprogramming my eyes and my ears and my tongue and all sorts of weird crap.
But the idea [00:42:35] that if we can get these kids, even when they're in the womb or when they're very young, and just get their mitochondria [00:42:40] healthy, we should see a massive reduction in autism and some of the other [00:42:45] childhood things like ADHD and all those. It just seems universal. You improve mitochondria with [00:42:50] known things that, just in the short term, improve mitochondrial function, symptoms [00:42:55] go down for almost all of that stuff,
Tom: right?
Well, and that's the thing, and of course I just want to mention, [00:43:00] we also don't know if those kids have mitochondrial dysfunction from birth. I mean, there [00:43:05] are low level mitochondrial mutations that are floating through the human gene pool that we don't know [00:43:10] about because we're not testing. That's why I said earlier, I think we should do [00:43:15] nationwide population level tests of mitochondrial, mitochondrial DNA to [00:43:20] see what the mutation load is out there in the gene pool that we don't know about.
We're only [00:43:25] tracking the ones that get up to the big enough level that people die. When people, when kids [00:43:30] start dying, then they look to see if they have mitochondrial mutations. Well, what about the kids that are just [00:43:35] not prospering very well, that might have a lesser, a lesser level of [00:43:40] mutations and nobody bothers to look?
Okay, so [00:43:45] yeah, and it runs in families. It can run in families for dozens of [00:43:50] generations. It could be passed down from 500 years ago and no one would know it.
Dave: And we always blame the [00:43:55] nuclear DNA, but it may be the mitochondrial DNA, or it may be the interaction of the two. So it skips a [00:44:00] generation here because that And now we can get the data.
How [00:44:05] many companies, or how hard is it to do a mitochondrial DNA test versus It's almost
Tom: impossible. I [00:44:10] mean, it's Yeah,
Dave: I haven't seen it commercially available. No,
Tom: it's not commercially available at all. You have to go, like, to get [00:44:15] one. Even if you have a child that's dying, you have to almost pull your teeth out to get [00:44:20] the mitochondrial analysis.
And it's very hard to do. And there's, like, maybe two people in the, three people [00:44:25] in the United States who can do it well. And, you know, no, it's so new. [00:44:30] And there's I just want to say again, there's no funding going into this, even [00:44:35] Tom, you know, you've got to start
Dave: 26 and me,
Tom: no, [00:44:40] no, no, we, we want to, we actually, we have a thing called mito clock and [00:44:45] we're thinking about spinning it off as a separate company.
I'm not here to promote, but I mean, we're, we're, [00:44:50] I'd love to turn that into a separate company or maybe this guy with this me screen thing, maybe he'll do something [00:44:55] that'll, that'll help. That'll give us the same information. Right? So we need to all come together and [00:45:00] come up with a really good mass producible mitochondrial tool [00:45:05] test, and we need to start using it.
Dave: This is music to my ears. And knowing [00:45:10] that a three times successful tech entrepreneur is working on this. Uh, gives [00:45:15] me hope because you learn something after a couple companies growing them, just [00:45:20] how to make stuff happen in large networks of humans. Like it's hard to be a [00:45:25] CEO in a, in a new field. So you're taking all that wisdom you accumulated and putting it [00:45:30] towards, uh, what I would consider to be one of the most important [00:45:35] longevity.
Projects underway right now.
Tom: Well, I can tell you that if I just wanted to have a [00:45:40] successful business and make money, I'd just do software. Software is a hell of a lot easier. So much [00:45:45] easier. Biotech is hard. And, you know, it's, it's also been [00:45:50] lately, it's just been really hard because it's just getting nailed from all directions.
So
Dave: Is this something you're going to [00:45:55] be able to do in the U. S. or are you going to have to go to somewhere like Abu Dhabi or Costa [00:46:00] Rica where the laws are a little bit more flexible on this kind of stuff. Abu
Tom: Dhabi is, they're making a [00:46:05] big play for this kind of stuff. Yeah, they are. We need to do, we have to do it in the United States because we [00:46:10] have a lead right now and we can't lose that lead.
I just, I mean, I'm just saying, you know, we need [00:46:15] to stay in the game. And, um, they are now talking about [00:46:20] reducing the FDA. Of course the FDA lag time has been horrible and [00:46:25] especially for biologics and the FDA has no conception of how to manage [00:46:30] Aging, as you already know, I don't have to talk about that.
They don't know what to do about aging and they're, they're struggling [00:46:35] trying to figure it out. So hopefully they're going to reduce the overhead. Also [00:46:40] at the same time, I don't know if you're aware of this, but individual states there, [00:46:45] I mean, Montana just passed a law that is breakthrough the Montana right to [00:46:50] try law.
Right. I mean,
Dave: I, uh, I think I know the guy who was, uh, the funding behind [00:46:55] that campaign. Uh, and yeah, so maybe the states will just reclaim some of their rights [00:47:00] and, you know, they'll
Tom: just say, Nope, we're going to just and doctors can make their own decisions. The FDA [00:47:05] should be a lot of people say the FDA should focus on small molecule drugs and let the biologics [00:47:10] be mandate be regulated by the traditional, you know, state.
Boards [00:47:15] and state organizations. And also there's this question of what happens when you have [00:47:20] individualized genetic treatments like you're, you're building a genetic treatment [00:47:25] for one person. You're going to go to the FDA with that. That makes no sense at all. They're going to have none at [00:47:30] all. So, um, we're, it's one way or another, we have to figure out how to make this [00:47:35] work in the United States.
And so, right now, I think between Montana and [00:47:40] Florida and Utah and some of these other states, I think we'll probably be able to do it here. [00:47:45]
Dave: I, I certainly hope so, because there's no reason we should be moving that offshore. [00:47:50] No. It's just that it's so slow and expensive, mostly because of over [00:47:55] regulation.
And, You know, there's all sorts of stuff. We could talk about the regulatory capture and all, but [00:48:00] yeah, that's a whole other. Yeah, we don't need to get into that. It's just what is the situation. And [00:48:05] so. I've seen, even when I worked with one of the, I think it was the first at [00:48:10] home cardiac monitor to replace a Holter monitor.
Tom: Oh, nice! They ended up
Dave: having a, this was [00:48:15] back, it was a Mayfield Bax company back in like 2001. And, um, they they [00:48:20] ended up doing all of their trials in India, and then coming back because there was another hundred [00:48:25] million to do it here, so. I feel like the U. S. is becoming a little bit more [00:48:30] open and a little bit more focused on like, this is a national kind of [00:48:35] economic survival thing.
Tom: Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you look at the [00:48:40] level of chronic disease, it's going to swamp us. In fact, it is already [00:48:45] swamping us. So we have to deal with chronic disease. And of course, that's [00:48:50] a big initiative already. They're talking about it. But mitochondrial. Treatments are one [00:48:55] really big, big, you know, thing in our toolkit to deal with [00:49:00] chronic disease.
So if we don't move, anyway, this is my, this is a [00:49:05] CEO. This is my claim that mitochondrial transplantation is a big [00:49:10] thing and we need to attack it. Aggressively, right? As a national initiative,
Dave: and [00:49:15] you, you could be biased because you're running a company and you're not biased because you chose to run [00:49:20] this company and you didn't have to do anything because you could have retired, right?
Tom: I could have [00:49:25] started another easy software company, you know, and just, yeah, I just done what I'd already do. [00:49:30] Yeah. But I mean, anyway, I'm not complaining. This is, you know, it's not often at this [00:49:35] point in one's career that you get a whole nother exciting, you know, [00:49:40] thing like this. It's very rare, actually. Oh, what a gift.
I'm the luckiest guy on the planet. [00:49:45] I really am. So
Dave: that is, it's so profound. And I'm I'm really happy to get [00:49:50] to, to chat with you about this. And this is planting a seed, you know, millions of people listen to the [00:49:55] show. And. A lot of the innovations that have come out in the longevity field, [00:50:00] this is a very early source of info and interest, and I know there's a lot of investors who listen to the [00:50:05] show, and I hope that just by shining a light on what you're doing, um, that it helps [00:50:10] to move it forward, there are probably some researchers who may reach out, you know, there's, there's just a whole community just [00:50:15] eager to support the kind of work you're doing.
I want to know, You've got some [00:50:20] wisdom, as you said earlier. So what is your longevity practice look like? I mean, are you doing little [00:50:25] lines of mitochondria at parties? How does this work?
Tom: I've got my secret [00:50:30] stash and I'm like, I'm like, I've got tracks on my arm. Well, you know, people [00:50:35] always say, You know, Tom, are you going to use this on yourself?
And I'm like, of course I'm going to use it on [00:50:40] myself. I mean, you know, I'm, I'm patient zero. Okay. You know, I have, I have my own [00:50:45] little problems that I've accumulated over the years. Just like everybody I'm in my mid sixties and [00:50:50] I intend to fix them. And I, yeah, I, I want to keep going. I, you know, [00:50:55] it's funny, cause one of our.
One of our, our kind of our number one volunteer is a guy [00:51:00] named John Kramer. And I know he's okay with me saying his name. He's 90 years old. He's [00:51:05] a former physics professor at, at university of Washington. He's [00:51:10] written books on quantum physics. He's like worked at, at, at the big physics [00:51:15] facilities like this.
And he's written three science fiction books. Okay. Just this incredible guy. [00:51:20] And he's a biohacker. He follows it. You know, I think he's, he watches your, your show. [00:51:25] He's our, he's our main volunteer because he's not, uh, yeah. Right. [00:51:30] He's 90 years old. And you know, we're like, okay, we're going to be, [00:51:35] we're going to be the first two.
So, you know, I've got 90 year olds. I've got [00:51:40] 85 year olds. I've got doctors, I've got scientists, I've got VCs. I've got a lot of people [00:51:45] who are kind of quietly volunteering to be, you know, the first [00:51:50] everybody. Yeah, yeah, you're in, you're in. If you want to try it, you're, you're, you're in. [00:51:55] We're not, as I said, it really isn't, I don't think this is going to do much for people [00:52:00] under 55 or 60 years old.
It's just your mitochondria are, they're still in pretty good shape. [00:52:05] So what we're saying is people over 55 or who have Parkinson's [00:52:10] or Alzheimer's or some other, other chronic disease, um, ALS is [00:52:15] a problem, but you know, and there's
Dave: any strong autoimmunity ought to improve with this. I would, I would [00:52:20] imagine.
I don't
Tom: know. I'm completely. I don't know about autoimmunity. [00:52:25] We don't want to try to mess with cancer yet. I think there's a lot of people who think that [00:52:30] cancer is going to be helped a lot.
Dave: I would bet. A lot of money on that, [00:52:35] knowing what I know about the Krebs cycle and all, and I know cancer treatment is just fraught [00:52:40] with risk and all, I wouldn't, I wouldn't make any claims about that until you have a lot of data.
No,
Tom: that's a toughie, but you [00:52:45] know, T cells, like killer T cells. If we can boost, I know [00:52:50] how to boost the mitochondria in T cells. We can do it anytime. It's easy. And so like if we can boost the [00:52:55] performance of the T cells and the killer cells in your body, then of course that's a [00:53:00] cancer. That could be potentially a cancer thing.
Dave: You just inspired me. Um, if you'd be up [00:53:05] for it, ask, uh, John Kramer, if he wants to come on the show, a physicist, science [00:53:10] fiction author. And biohacker is 90. I have something to learn from him. So
Tom: that's right. [00:53:15] We have, we have some great people in our group. It's just, we have a lot of ringers.
Dave: Well, Tom, right.[00:53:20]
I deeply appreciate that you chose to do this. And just, I can sense your [00:53:25] excitement about it. Like this is the coolest stuff I can think of to work with. And you're right at ground zero. Something [00:53:30] that, I am predicting, and I'm pretty good at predicting, this is going to be really, really [00:53:35] big.
Tom: Yeah, I hope so.
And, um, you know, I, uh, [00:53:40] I'd be more than happy to see it get big. And, you know, that would, that would be a big, uh, that would be a big [00:53:45] win for the world. So.
Dave: Well, your website is Mitrix, M I T R I [00:53:50] X dot bio.
Tom: Bio, and yes, and anybody who wants to just go to our contact [00:53:55] page. So we, we get, we get inquiries all the time.
And, uh, just [00:54:00] remember we're a tiny company. So if it takes a while to get back, just be patient.
Dave: [00:54:05] That's reasonable. I imagine you're going to get some very interesting contacts after this interview. And, uh, [00:54:10] yeah, so
Tom: I
Dave: am, uh, I'm even more hopeful than I was at the start of the interview. [00:54:15] So thank you.
Wonderful. Well, thank you very much. See you next time [00:54:20] on the human upgrade podcast.