Caroline: [00:00:00] Your wisdom is a unique wisdom that contributes to the entire planet and to the entire [00:00:05] humanity beyond present, past and future. We know from the research on black holes, even, that [00:00:10] there are in gravitational fields, you are not just the thing floating, you are connected to [00:00:15] everything else. The more we train ourself to be self regulated, the more we know how [00:00:20] to tune in and use things like breathwork and meditation to
Host: open the door.
Dr. Caroline [00:00:25] Leaf is in the house, a cognitive neuroscientist specializing in the [00:00:30] mind brain connection who's been in this field for many decades.
Caroline: The research says [00:00:35] is in terms of how long it takes for habits to form. It's not 21 days, it's [00:00:40] three cycles of 21. I
Dave: don't want it to take 60 days to change a habit.
[00:00:45] What could I do to shrink that window? You're listening to The Human [00:00:50] Upgrade with Dave Asprey.
[00:00:55] What even is cleaning up your mental mess?
Caroline: That's a good question. [00:01:00] Well, like we need to clean up, clean our teeth every day and clean our houses and everything. We've got to [00:01:05] constantly manage our minds. And that's really what, what cleaning up the mental mess is. [00:01:10] It's, it's, it's not like we shouldn't be waiting until there's a crisis.
We should be self [00:01:15] regulating and managing our minds. Constantly, because our minds are 99 percent [00:01:20] of who we are and they drive our brain and body. So cleaning up that mind stuff is [00:01:25] critical to just functioning as a human. And you leave that mess, it fills up, [00:01:30] the clutter comes and then we get hit with these crises and then everything just blows out of [00:01:35] proportion.
Dave: Some people use like a mouthwash by the way, guys, I don't recommend that. Some people [00:01:40] floss, some people brush, some people have ultrasonic whatevers. If it's like [00:01:45] cleaning your teeth, it seems like there's a lot of different nooks and crannies in the mind that you might want to clean [00:01:50] up. How do I know where to go first?
Caroline: Well, the first thing, this is actually, Dave, when I wrote this [00:01:55] book, Help in a Hurry, this is my new one coming out, is what I found that for years as a [00:02:00] therapist, I would work with people who were in crisis and in various different ways. [00:02:05] And then obviously there was, through the work I do, we reach people that are in crisis, but also just [00:02:10] managing their mind.
But what has become very, uh, really to your point, to your [00:02:15] question is what do I do the other nooks and crannies so there's the big stuff but what do I do now in this [00:02:20] moment in the next 63 seconds so someone's just yelled at you or you've just received a [00:02:25] text that really has thrown you off or you find yourself people pleasing again or you find yourself [00:02:30] stuck in imposter syndrome or someone has made you so mad you want to punch them in the face or [00:02:35] whatever those in the moment situations that as you and I both know throw your [00:02:40] neurophysiology into chaos.
And when you are, when you're getting that kind of feedback from your brain and your [00:02:45] body, your mind gets stuck in the conscious mode and then we basically don't [00:02:50] function correctly and we start getting stuck. So in terms of the nooks and crannies of the mind, [00:02:55] we need to address the 63 seconds literally.
And when we address [00:03:00] this, and I, and I'm making the point about the 63 seconds, um, as we go through. So the [00:03:05] six, we need to address the 63 seconds. And if I can control the next minute, I can [00:03:10] control the next five, the next hour, the next day. And when I get that kind of level of self [00:03:15] regulation, then I can find the patterns in my life.
And those are the patterns I'm going to [00:03:20] spend time, which is the 63 days, which is part of the work that I talked about in cleaning up the [00:03:25] mental mess, how long it does take to actually make changes that do show up in your life. [00:03:30] Whether it's one of the biohacking changes that you talk about so much, or whether, which is all driven by [00:03:35] mind anyway, you've got to use your mind too.
Or whether it's a mental health crisis you're trying to deal [00:03:40] with, or whether it's something like imposter syndrome, whatever it may be, we first have to [00:03:45] catch the moment. Where our mind is, and then we need to look at the patterns and [00:03:50] deal with a bigger picture. So there's lots of nooks and crannies and there's different levels of the mind.
And that's [00:03:55] something that might be worth diving into.
Dave: Where are you getting these extra three seconds here? Because I think there's [00:04:00] 60 seconds in a minute and you're getting an extra three.
Caroline: I knew you'd ask that question. I know you will. [00:04:05] Okay, so I'm playing with numbers here. So basically what the research says is in [00:04:10] terms of habituation, in terms of How long it takes for [00:04:15] habits to form.
It's not 21 days. It's three cycles of 21, which is a minimum [00:04:20] of three cycles of 21. So somewhere between 59 and 63 days, we seen [00:04:25] a sweet spot where people automatize a habit. In other words, Make [00:04:30] something that it's actually going to drive you the change manifest. It's not just going to be, I wish I was doing that.
It's actually [00:04:35] happening. So the 63 seconds is catching in the 60, 60 seconds, just playing [00:04:40] on the number. So within a minute, the, the key is that we, we work in 10 second [00:04:45] bursts in our conscious, in our conscious mind. We work in much, much faster speeds in our, in [00:04:50] our, in our non conscious level, but our conscious mind is working on 10, 10 second bursts.[00:04:55]
And we kind of focus every, every. Around about six, we have this [00:05:00] aha moment. And so what I'm trying to help people do is self regulate in that moment. Cause it's that [00:05:05] moment. If you can catch that moment, you influence how the information goes into the [00:05:10] brain and the body and you influence how it's going to be wired in, you influence the rest of your day.
Dave: Carolyn. [00:05:15] We've gotta get to the bottom of this. You say 63 days, [00:05:20] and the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy says 42 days. Clearly. Well, so does the Bible. [00:05:25] It says 40, and then James Clear and BJ Fog and their books [00:05:30] on habits, they'll tell you that it's about six weeks to make a new habit. [00:05:35] So is it 42 days, six weeks, or is it 63 days?
How do you know? [00:05:40]
Caroline: Okay. So we've got to, we've got to look at the history of the research and funnily enough, [00:05:45] there's been, there's been minimal research compared to other areas of science. [00:05:50] The whole habit formation is spoken about more than its research. In other words, the body of research on [00:05:55] habit formation isn't as big as I would like it to be, but it does, [00:06:00] what we are seeing in a lot of the research is that some, that when, when we hit the [00:06:05] 21 day mark, which is that myth that was promulgated by the Dr.
Meltz, I think it was. Back in the [00:06:10] sixties where he was doing research on his plastic surgeon. So he was doing, um, he, he saw [00:06:15] that his patients took more or less 21 days to heal, which is the stem cell rejuvenation and all that kind of [00:06:20] stuff. And so he basically translated that into mind and it became this myth that kind [00:06:25] of hit everyone in 21 days to build a habit.
But then we see
Dave: [00:06:30] surgery recovery was habit formation, the original stuff. That's exactly.
Caroline: That exactly. And that's, you know, it [00:06:35] shows you how when something gets out, then becomes a myth. It gets caught up in the social zeitgeist or the [00:06:40] mind. Like
Dave: kale.
Caroline: Like kale. [00:06:45] Yeah. It gets caught up in the zeitgeist and then people have to all eat kale and do everything in 21 days. [00:06:50] And, you know, it's just obsessive. So what. The researchers have shown is that the, [00:06:55] and, uh, that's why I did this body of research as well. And I saw with my patients is that we [00:07:00] got to certain key points.
So, 21 days, you hit a certain level of deep [00:07:05] awareness that, okay, this is where I want to be. And I, and I'm, this is how I'm going to start. This is, I can see where I want to be or whatever, [00:07:10] whatever change, but then if you don't, if you don't carry on by day, more or less 28, [00:07:15] so we've done a lot of in depth analysis of what happens per day over that 63 period, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:07:20] So long story short, by day 28, for example, you get this drop off where [00:07:25] people will go Right back almost to day one, because they think, Oh, I've got this a day 21, [00:07:30] but they haven't. You haven't stabilized the thought. So the neuroscience requires that you stabilize the [00:07:35] thought. So then again, day 36 to 42, we see another very deep [00:07:40] change where people's insight grows, where there's this massive, Oh my gosh, now I can [00:07:45] see what I did and how it's changed and where I'm going.
It's a different level to day 21 and [00:07:50] day 28, but that's where people often feel worse before they get there. There's often a very big dip and [00:07:55] people will often give up in that, in the change because they have insight that tells them things [00:08:00] like, wow, look at what I've lost. So if someone's maybe grieving an [00:08:05] abuse or something like that.
There's a deep grieving because you have tremendous wisdom and insight. I [00:08:10] know you can't. you very spiritual and you, you, you talk a lot about you know, getting that inner, inner [00:08:15] wisdom and all that kind of thing. You get a massive burst of that happening around 36 to 42. A lot [00:08:20] of people get through that hump, but a lot of people will also give up at that hump.
And this is what the research [00:08:25] shows. So it shows that we need to actually get through that hump. And then you suddenly have this clear vision. Climb. And this climb [00:08:30] happens around somewhere, somewhere from sort of 42 up to [00:08:35] 63. And so 59 is in it somewhere between 59 and 63, but to keep it nice and [00:08:40] clean and even, what we've also found is that there's a definite shifted around day 63.
It definitely [00:08:45] seems these three cycles of 21, but sometimes people were headed around 59. So we're not being, [00:08:50] you know, absolutely like you have to get to 63, but you've got to get to at least 59. [00:08:55] Now having said that, very quickly. Having said, let's say it's a massive abuse. Like I've worked with [00:09:00] clients who've had sexual trauma.
You're not going to fix that in one 63 day [00:09:05] habit forming cycle. You're going to hit one area. So generally if you do the [00:09:10] numbers, it's at least someone who's going through some big kind of trauma. It's going to probably take you [00:09:15] three to six or maybe 12 cycles. So over a period of time. So there's a definite [00:09:20] process.
Dave: There's changing a habit and then there's healing a trauma. And they're kind of different [00:09:25] things, right?
Caroline: Totally. Same principle, but different objective and [00:09:30] outcome.
Dave: That makes sense. Now, I'm glad you said 59 days might be enough [00:09:35] for some people and 63 days is on average, because I'm really lazy. [00:09:40] And I don't want it to take 60 days to change a habit.
What [00:09:45] could I do to shrink that window? I mean, I'm willing to use ketamine for neuroplasticity. I'll run [00:09:50] electricity over my brain. I'll hang upside down in my bat cave. How do I make it faster?
Caroline: You're not [00:09:55] going to make it faster if it is a big, um, if it's something that you're changing. So let's say it's, let's say it's [00:10:00] just a habit that you're trying to form.
The, anything that you do physically is [00:10:05] going to help the process definitely stabilize. But. But what we have [00:10:10] repeatedly seen from the research and even I mentioned that there's not a big enough body of research. These are a heck of a lot of research [00:10:15] out there and we're doing another study now at the moment.
We've just done two big studies recently, but [00:10:20] essentially your mind is driving your brain and your body. And. At mind is 99 [00:10:25] percent of who we are and our brain and our body are 1 percent doesn't mean that the 1 percent is not important. It's very important [00:10:30] as you very well know, but the decision to change comes in your mind and the driving of [00:10:35] the change and the decisions that you do in your body to make the changes.
So the diet, the [00:10:40] exercise, the kitchen, whatever it is that you're doing is still driven by mind. So what we see is that the [00:10:45] effectiveness of making the body and the network that is [00:10:50] wired into the brain and body for that. Actual neuroplasticity to stabilize. There [00:10:55] isn't a, isn't a shortcut. There is no quick fix.
You certainly will be, have a better, you [00:11:00] will certainly have a better habit if you're working harder at you're doing extra things to sup, you know, to [00:11:05] support the process, but there is no quick fix when it comes to healing trauma, when it comes to building a new [00:11:10] habit, when it comes to changing something like people pleasing or whatever, I mean, whatever it is, getting [00:11:15] irritated, whatever you have to work through the timeframe.
Dave: I've [00:11:20] known a few people who feel like they had a quick fix for things like this. Maybe they [00:11:25] did deep holotropic breath work or they went to the jungle and ate a bunch of [00:11:30] psychedelics or something. Are there examples of people who just stop people [00:11:35] pleasing overnight?
Caroline: You're going to find what if you if you scan the [00:11:40] literature and you scan what people say, you're going to find when people do Do move out of the environment and go and do something [00:11:45] exceptional like that.
It's very intense. And so depending on how long they're there, you are going [00:11:50] to definitely create a major change. But for that to be sustainable over time, there's a [00:11:55] very good chance you're going to slip back. The chances are that you're going to, you know, move forward for a [00:12:00] period of time. You're going to be, you know, You know, it's going to be easier to self regulate.
You're going to recognize [00:12:05] your changes, slipping back more, you know, more easily. But once you back, you know, you go [00:12:10] into those bubbles, they give you a massive boost, but you go back into life. You've got to [00:12:15] have an entrance and an exit plan, if that makes sense. So you've got to know how you're [00:12:20] going to.
deal with going back into the reg, the routine of daily life. So there's so many factors around [00:12:25] that that have to be addressed. So no, I don't believe from what I've done from the research from being in [00:12:30] this game for 40 years now that that's going to fix the problem. It's going [00:12:35] to help tremendously, but you have to, you have to have an entrance plan.
And we [00:12:40] see this day with people that are going to Um, rehabs.
Host: Yeah,
Caroline: revolving door. Yeah. I [00:12:45] mean, it's just that they do so well in rehab, not always, but generally, and then they go back [00:12:50] into real life and you, you, the timing, the transition, how you do it, there's just, it's [00:12:55] got to be done properly,
Dave: right? So you need some integration and support for that 63 day [00:13:00] period.
Whether it's healing a trauma or just building a new habit that works really well, [00:13:05] this is important because I've written a lot about the 10, 000 hours thing, and I think that's nonsense. In fact, [00:13:10] I can prove why it's nonsense. That's based on speed of myelination,
Caroline: right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's actually been [00:13:15] challenged that research anyway, so I'm sure you've seen that in recent years,
Dave: right?
So that. That [00:13:20] don't agree with. And then really this 40, 42 [00:13:25] days, that's comes up a lot. And your explanation is really interesting. You're saying, yes, you'll actually have a [00:13:30] spiritual integration thing around 40 days. But if you go another three weeks after [00:13:35] that, then you're going to have full habit formation where it just becomes part of your life.
Caroline: [00:13:40] Exactly.
Dave: Uh, that makes a lot of sense and you're the first person who's, who's said this that I've ever [00:13:45] come across, which is really cool.
Caroline: So we did a very interesting qualitative study, which over [00:13:50] quite a long, long period of time, because what I want, what people were asking me was if I know [00:13:55] what's coming up, and I know this when I work with patients for 25 years and just generally with people, if I know [00:14:00] that I'm going to have a dip or I'm going to have a peak, I'm going to feel great here.
If you can track that healing [00:14:05] journey, then it also helps you be more prepared. That's 42 day. [00:14:10] 36 to 42 toys. There's always a window, obviously it really catches people [00:14:15] because it's, if you not, if you haven't done much spiritual work, or if you haven't [00:14:20] really been a deep thinker, which we can easily not become with all of our social media, it can really [00:14:25] catch you.
And the dips can be very, very bad. And we, and we saw in therapy, there was always a [00:14:30] challenge. And I did research on this back when I was a therapist is that there's always a challenge with something called [00:14:35] carry over. And it's one of the biggest issues in therapy. where [00:14:40] people don't carry over into the, you know, generalize out into the world.
And it's, it's like in [00:14:45] anything, any kind of anything that you apply in your life. And so this has been very interesting for me to study. [00:14:50] And I saw the biggest carryover issues happening somewhere between 36 and 42. So it's really [00:14:55] important that one understands the depth of the spirituality that happens there, the depth of how we tap [00:15:00] into our non conscious mind, which is something we should talk about.
Um, and if you can get through that, [00:15:05] you can actually embrace the pain because it's painful. Around up to about 50. [00:15:10] Days 50 something that see that time is, is a, is a bad dip. But if you know that it's a [00:15:15] learning dip, if you can embrace and face
Dave: the first 50 days is painful, you're saying?
Caroline: No, the first [00:15:20] 21 is very hard, but from 30, from 36 to, from about 36 42 [00:15:25] to about 50 something, 55, whatever roundabout there, there's a window of.[00:15:30]
Sort of 10 days where one gets this peak of insight and then a massive [00:15:35] dip because the insight makes you almost like you see what you've missed, what you've lost, what you [00:15:40] could have, a lot of regret cycles are set up at that point that can get people stuck, that kind of thing. [00:15:45] So if you know, it's coming up, then you know how to prepare.
And that's what I say about everything. This is also, I wrote [00:15:50] this current book is don't just wait for the crisis to practice. You've got to, you've got to be [00:15:55] proactive. So that's why we did the research showing the 10 days. The depth of the healing journey and why [00:16:00] what are these certain peaks and depths and things that can happen so they don't show you so you know, Okay, this is [00:16:05] normal.
It's okay. I'm not okay. And this is okay. This is
Dave: profoundly interesting stuff, [00:16:10] Carolyn. And I love when we get to talk, I get to see one of your new books because You [00:16:15] have a different way of thinking about this whole healing journey. In fact, in my brain, I'm [00:16:20] like, I don't even like the word healing journey.
I'm like, just tell me how to get it done. Like, what are the steps? And [00:16:25] you, you go through, I don't want to go on a journey. I just want to do it. But you're saying, look, [00:16:30] if you're going to go on a journey, you need a map. And if it's going to take this much [00:16:35] time, you're going to go this far, here's where the valleys are, here's the fun parts.
And when [00:16:40] people know that, it's a lot easier to get it done. So, this is just fun. Every time we talk, I'm like, oh, that, [00:16:45] who, why didn't anyone else think of that?[00:16:50]
So, why are you so weird? How come your brain can do this?
Caroline: [00:16:55] How come my brain can do this or how come we can all do these weird things?
Dave: How come you can do [00:17:00] this? Why are you the first researcher to come up with all this stuff? I
Caroline: think it's all of us contribute [00:17:05] something unique. I mean, look at what you've done.
You've contributed such unique things to the field too. So I think each of us has [00:17:10] our own little corner of the pie. And we, or something to contribute. And this has just been, you know, I [00:17:15] think also my experience as a therapist working with such a wide variety of [00:17:20] different issues, I didn't just work with trauma.
I work and I saw this process and I saw with my clients that [00:17:25] if they got through these things and whatever, so, and it fascinated me. So I've always tried to [00:17:30] understand it. So.
Dave: Your curiosity, it shows because you can tell you've seen enough patients like, why [00:17:35] is this going on? So it's, it's always just so much fun to, to get to ask you the hard questions [00:17:40] and here's, here's one of them.
Is the idea of free [00:17:45] will just nonsense?
Caroline: Oh, not at all. I know there's been a little debate about that in the, in the media. [00:17:50] And I know if you are, if, I mean, you just the choice to ask the [00:17:55] questions you're asking is evidence of free will. So here, here's from a scientific perspective, very quickly [00:18:00] If the research that they've used to say that there's no free will, and there's, I mean, [00:18:05] there's such a large body of research where you can interpret.
It's how you interpret there. Honestly, it's how you interpret. [00:18:10] They do studies where they'll ask people to do something and then they'll say, okay, the [00:18:15] brain's making them do it. There's no free will. It's all just being driven by the brain. The brain is producing the mind. Meanwhile, the, [00:18:20] the, the brain does nothing except what the mind tells it to do.
The mind is what. [00:18:25] animates the brain and enables the brain to respond on the neurophysiological, chemical, [00:18:30] hormonal, all the different levels, networking, et cetera, et cetera. So essentially they are [00:18:35] to do something. The brain, they look at the technology and then they say, you see, the brain made them do it.
But they [00:18:40] asked the person to make a decision to make a choice and you can stick a dead salmon in an MRI [00:18:45] machine and you'll get a response. So I mean that just tells you so we've got to be very careful of [00:18:50] using the argument of technology to explain away free will. We just have to [00:18:55] look at the fact that.
I mean, honestly, the every moment of every day, the [00:19:00] uniqueness just to how each of us are so different is evidence of free will. Working with people in [00:19:05] addictions, for example, is really, really clear because it's one of the things people that are deeply [00:19:10] caught in addictions, which is a behavior, not a disease.
It's a behavior that is a response to [00:19:15] deep stuff going on in one's life. These are. bunch of decisions that have been made for a person to [00:19:20] feel so stuck that they want to suppress with it, with an addiction and people that get out or in the midst of [00:19:25] one of the main things that they used to say to me, and this is also backed up by research is it's [00:19:30] choice.
And, and you'll hear the stories of people that have got out of huge things. They said they hit [00:19:35] that rock bottom or they hit that point and they chose. So definitely free will we, [00:19:40] our uniqueness is all wrapped up in our free will.
Dave: So you're. firmly on the [00:19:45] side of free will, that raises the question, are you really in control of your thoughts [00:19:50] or are you just observing your thoughts?
Caroline: Oh, I do. I believe we're totally in control, but I think we can get out of [00:19:55] control. So this is where the deep spiritual stuff comes. So if we talk about [00:20:00] mind, there's three levels and the level, this is the part of the research I've done. So it's, [00:20:05] it's, I use the word mind as Big word to incorporate things like consciousness, spirit, soul, [00:20:10] all these words that are thrown around, have been thrown around for thousands of years.
So I found from the research [00:20:15] I did that it was the word mind is a nice, holistic, collective word to use [00:20:20] for this concept. Okay, so mind has got this. And I'll explain as simplistically as I [00:20:25] can. Our conscious level is obvious. It's what we are in when we are awake. And we have our conscious mind [00:20:30] operating now.
The, the non conscious, N O N, not unconscious, the [00:20:35] non conscious, N O N, that is the biggest part of us. It operates 24 7. [00:20:40] Every single memory we've ever had, which clusters into thoughts, is [00:20:45] And ever will have an all having is in this non conscious mind. So every [00:20:50] experience we have is processed through the non conscious mind.
Everything's absorbed. It's our deep spiritual [00:20:55] wisdom. It's our intuition, our gut feel. It's whatever spiritual belief people have. It's connected [00:21:00] to the source, which could be Godness. God, God, God. Universe, whatever you believe it is. But [00:21:05] we as humans have this phenomenal stuff that is inside of us. [00:21:10] And you're a, I mean, you're a master of meditation.
You know that that's what we're tapping into when we [00:21:15] are, so the non conscious mind then is this science word for this [00:21:20] massive part of us. In between there's a sub, there's a level in between. And the reason we [00:21:25] have to have a level in between. Twin is because the speed of the non conscious mind is way beyond the speed of the [00:21:30] conscious mind.
And so the subconscious is a waiting room for want of a better [00:21:35] analogy between the conscious and the non conscious. Non conscious [00:21:40] infinite can handle millions of bits of information in a second. The conscious can only handle around about [00:21:45] two to three words in a second. The subconscious therefore forms like a holding room, [00:21:50] kind of like a waiting room where patients are triaged or where you're waiting for something and [00:21:55] wherever it could be.
And you've got a limited [00:22:00] amount of people in the waiting room, you have a limited amount of thoughts. So the non conscious is looking for [00:22:05] the things that will make us feel like we don't have control, make us feel like we don't have free will, [00:22:10] make us feel like we stuck, make us feel like we cannot go on, make us feel that overwhelmed, [00:22:15] burnout, etc.
So, um, [00:22:20] I'm going to be using [00:22:25] this, uh, uh, uh, uh, [00:22:30] uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, [00:22:35] uh, uh, uh, uh, around about [00:22:40] 20 words per second. Where's the conscious mind can handle two to three words [00:22:45] per second to get a feel for that? You're not having a conversation if your team was trying to [00:22:50] talk to you at the same time Or and my team was trying to we couldn't handle that.
We couldn't [00:22:55] concentrate We we're concentrating on each other because we're having a conversation. That's what the [00:23:00] conscious mind can do conscious minds Powerful. It can. It needs to be able to focus like that [00:23:05] because your conscious mind is actually taking the data coming in. If it [00:23:10] listens to the non conscious, which is BOSU, it's taking the non conscious wisdom that's going via the [00:23:15] subconscious into a conscious mind.
It's then. Thinking, feeling, and choosing. So we, it's got [00:23:20] this veto power, this free will, this choice stuff. Free will is also in the other parts of mind, but we [00:23:25] actively use our free will or veto power choice in the conscious mind. So what [00:23:30] happens when, when people are stuck in that conscious mind [00:23:35] moment, we supposed to be listening to the subconscious.
We supposed to be listening to the [00:23:40] wisdom that comes via the, via the subconscious from the non conscious [00:23:45] and we can train ourselves and that's what things like meditation do is it teaches us to do that but [00:23:50] we've also got to now use that and move forward and that's why I developed a system that you use [00:23:55] the neuropsycho which is using that tapping into accessing the non conscious wisdom and then moving [00:24:00] forward.
What happens to someone, for example, when you get stuck in regret cycles or [00:24:05] addiction or people pleasing or feeling like you have no control is you ignore the [00:24:10] wisdom coming from the non conscious fire, the subconscious
Dave: said, yes.
Caroline: So there's [00:24:15] another analogy that'll even hammer this home more. Think of the subconscious mind like a [00:24:20] toddler and think of a toddler.
I mean, you've had, you've got kids and remember when they were small. Toddlers are all over the [00:24:25] place, but look at their hunger and their passion to learn. They're learning their hands on. It's chaos. It's [00:24:30] messy. Going to your first question. So our conscious mind is like a toddler. It's learning. It's [00:24:35] excited.
It's up and down. It's all over the place. That is why it needs a parent to guide it. [00:24:40] And that's essentially what your subconscious and non conscious are doing. But what we do a lot in [00:24:45] our life is we get so stimulated by everything coming in that we don't take the time to [00:24:50] train ourselves to listen to the wisdom coming from the non conscious.
So the work that I do, and I [00:24:55] believe the work you do too, absolutely, is teaching people to tap into that wisdom of the non conscious.
Dave: [00:25:00] What's the difference between unconscious wisdom and intuition?
Caroline: Okay, so [00:25:05] unconscious is a state of brain, a brain state. So it's it's got nothing to do [00:25:10] with the levels of mind.
So you get conscious, subconscious, non conscious, you know, in [00:25:15] then unconscious is a brain state that we go into when you're asleep and you still have the levels of [00:25:20] mind or conscious and subconscious kind of switch off and just non conscious works. So [00:25:25] unconscious when you are. Unconscious, you're asleep or knocked out or an anesthesia or whatever.
So it's a [00:25:30] brain state versus a level of mind. So, that's, so [00:25:35] your question goes, you, does that answer your question? I
Dave: think so. [00:25:40] In the frameworks that I wrote about, it would be really fun to see both of our books on [00:25:45] Amazon next to each other. Um, so I I'm comparing and contrasting your work with [00:25:50] mine to figure out some stuff I might've missed, uh, or a different perspective on it.
And [00:25:55] from what I've observed, uh, with clients coming through 40 Years of Zen, or just in my [00:26:00] own practice, intuition is that first little thing that, [00:26:05] that you'll pick up. It, it's small and it's brief. And then right [00:26:10] after that will come an emotional response. And the emotional response can be larger, and then [00:26:15] after that will be a thought that justifies the emotion.
And, [00:26:20] I've seen that a lot of people will, they learn early on [00:26:25] to suppress their intuition using an emotion, that would be trauma, right, and then to [00:26:30] justify the people pleasing or whatever the trauma response is with a story about it in their logical [00:26:35] mind. So I'm, I'm interested in that. That little blip of intuition.
How do [00:26:40] we help our listeners learn how to tap into that?
Caroline: Beautiful. Okay. So intuition, that blip of [00:26:45] intuition linked to insight, linked to wisdom, linked to all that deep thinking stuff, that's from [00:26:50] our non conscious. So the non conscious is the source of that. So we have [00:26:55] everything that we need to survive, to solve the problems of our life, because [00:27:00] in our non conscious, because the non conscious is beyond space and time.
So it's not [00:27:05] bound by the present, past and future, which is really quite a difficult concept to, to [00:27:10] get our heads around. You know, you've probably read about retroactive causation and things like that, which is basically [00:27:15] this idea that there's a, the main part of us isn't stuck in time. Like we experience [00:27:20] things consciously in time, but our wisdom is not stuck in time.
So this is [00:27:25] why it's so vital that we do get these blips of intuition. And so we actually talk in the [00:27:30] same thing. Very similar, Dave. But we, I just use slightly different terminology, but it's, [00:27:35] it's the same sort of thing. So essentially the way I explain exactly, so it's, this is, it's, the listeners don't get [00:27:40] confused.
We, we saying the same thing, but I'm going to, I'm going to use the site, the language of science that I know, and then I'm going to relate it [00:27:45] to your, your answer. So essentially when the non conscious finds those, [00:27:50] Those thought patterns, thoughts, thoughts contain memory. So thought is this, I'm going to hold up [00:27:55] a tree for those that are listening.
I'm holding up a little tree that is a plant. This is basically a [00:28:00] thought and a thought has three different representations in the [00:28:05] mind. It looks like a sort of cloud of energy in the brain. It looks like a tree. And in [00:28:10] every cell of the body, it looks like a little hedge and they're all connected. So we have [00:28:15] 37 to a hundred trillion cells in our brain, in our body, which means that we are storing memory, [00:28:20] even in our fingertips.
Memory is not in our, I mean, I say that to make a point that memory is not in [00:28:25] our brain. It is throughout the body. which is the stuff that you tap into with your work, [00:28:30] okay? The memories are throughout. And memories cluster into thoughts and thoughts are experiences. [00:28:35] So this conversation would be an experience and everywhere, they'd be saying are the memories of [00:28:40] this experience.
The details, details are there for the memories. Details make an experience memories, [00:28:45] make a thought. Okay. So those thoughts are packed with all the emotions of the moment. [00:28:50] All the behaviors, all the perspectives, all the feelings in our [00:28:55] body are all clustered within that thought. And that thought, that thought [00:29:00] is the cloud in the mind.
It's the brain, the tree in the brain and the, um, and the, the [00:29:05] little hedges in the body. And they're all connected like an internal worldwide web. We literally have our own [00:29:10] internal worldwide web. So when you encourage people to in 40 years of [00:29:15] Zen and your meditation, when you encourage them to tune in and they get that blip of wisdom, what they've done is [00:29:20] they've.
Actually let the conscious mind, the toddler listened to the parent [00:29:25] tapped into what was sitting in the waiting room, opened the door to the wisdom of the non conscious. Cause the minute you [00:29:30] pay attention to what's in the waiting room, that comes with a loaded gun of beautiful stuff. A load of guns, the wrong word [00:29:35] comes with a load of gifts, um, of really good stuff.
I chose the Freudian [00:29:40] slip there. Um, so it comes with all this great stuff. And then [00:29:45] as we, Slow down on my, uh, ex, well, we're not slowing down, we're actually speeding up. But when we [00:29:50] switch off to the conscious toddler mind, we can tap in. So that, that's attached to thought. So you [00:29:55] said that the blip of intuition then brings up the emotion.
Emotion is a warning [00:30:00] signal. And when you bring up that emotion, you mentioned that it brings up a [00:30:05] thought. So I just would get the order in this sense. I would, cause if you, if you. Speed things, slow things down. [00:30:10] You'll see that the emotion immediately is felt in the body is immediately going to make you aware of a [00:30:15] behavior and immediately going to make you aware of a perspective.
So I'm depressed. My, [00:30:20] my body feels lethargic. I am, Withdrawing and life sucks. [00:30:25] It comes up really fast. Now, those are four signals that are attached to the thought [00:30:30] and the thought sitting in an unconscious mind waiting to be alerted. And so when you, when you [00:30:35] get those blips and I use your word blips, it brings up the thought.
So yes, you are right. I'm just [00:30:40] putting them in those, the, then as the thought comes up, we now have the thought. So it's almost like four balloons [00:30:45] attached to this tree, kind of bringing the tree up. If you imagine four balloons, for those of you, I'm holding up a [00:30:50] tree. If you're listening and not watching.
Imagine four balloons and as, as you meditate, [00:30:55] as you calm down the neurophysiology as you step into the progression of, of the [00:31:00] work that I, the sort of beyond the, the meditation, you, you start bringing up, [00:31:05] well, the meditation, your stuff, bring, I'm, I'm answering your question. So it brings up the thought Via [00:31:10] those balloons.
And as it's up, we now have signals, emotions, behaviors, bodily [00:31:15] sensations, perspectives attached to thoughts. So now we have a lot of data, a lot of [00:31:20] data, and that can, that needs to be managed. Otherwise people get completely overwhelmed. Does that make [00:31:25] sense?
Dave: It does make sense. I've worked on this, this notion where [00:31:30] we definitely are feeling emotions in our bodies, you know, it's stored in your hips, or you feel it [00:31:35] stuck somewhere, and you can tap on it, or you can work with the therapist, all kinds of things.
Oh, look, [00:31:40] that emotion came out, you feel it, it comes out, and that appears to be [00:31:45] different from this divine guidance or an inner knowing, or I don't know, I just [00:31:50] knew it. Where's that I just knew it coming from? It doesn't seem like it's everybody. [00:31:55]
Caroline: It's coming from your non conscious. Your body is a host.
Your brain and [00:32:00] your body are a host to the energy of your mind. And your [00:32:05] conscious mind is that one level of energy. Your subconscious, another level of energy. And the non [00:32:10] conscious That another level of energy, so talking about electromagnetic forces and, you know, [00:32:15] we can go into this so much physics to back this up.
So this is not woo stuff. This is hardcore science [00:32:20] and the biofield and all that kind of stuff. So that I just know it. The [00:32:25] more we train ourself to be self regulated, the more we know how to tune in and [00:32:30] use things like deep breath work and meditation to open the door and things like the neuropsycho that I [00:32:35] teach.
Added to that to actually access this wisdom, the more you do that, you're [00:32:40] finding it. So it's in the non conscious and the non conscious is connected to whether, well, look, people [00:32:45] have different spiritual beliefs, as I already mentioned, but what we do know from science is that [00:32:50] everything is connected. We know that from.
The research on black holes, even that they are in [00:32:55] gravitational fields. You are not just the thing floating. You are connected [00:33:00] to everything else. Everything's this web. So therefore, your wisdom is a unique [00:33:05] wisdom that contributes to the entire planet and to the entire race, the entire [00:33:10] humanity beyond present, past and future.
And I know we're getting quite deep here, but the deeper you get and [00:33:15] get in touch with yourself, the more you access your wisdom. And if you don't have it there, you're going to get the [00:33:20] wisdom from The wisdom of God and a source, whatever you want to call it. So that's why it's [00:33:25] important to self regulate.
Essentially, both you and I are teaching people to self regulate.
Dave: That's what it's really all [00:33:30] about. Regulate yourself and the whole world around you regulates with you. Like who would have thought, right?
Caroline: [00:33:35] Exactly.
Dave: How often do you personally use AI every day?
Caroline: I think it's popping up [00:33:40] constantly in all the work we, it's everywhere.
I mean, you can't avoid it. And it's, you know, AI, um, that's [00:33:45] another whole conversation. But personally, I think AI, let me say, get away from the word [00:33:50] personally, AI is fantastic. It's helpful. It's useful, but it's algorithmic. And. [00:33:55] If we see what it's based on the foundational concepts of AI, which we need, I mean, [00:34:00] it's, it's the next advanced, I totally get it.
So I'm not anti AI at all. But what I'd love people to [00:34:05] understand is that the concept of AI is algorithmic and it's based on [00:34:10] the idea of how AI works. A neuron fires in the brain and they've taken that [00:34:15] concept and then they've said if we can work out that mathematical concept, we can then have this additive effect, [00:34:20] which is what AI is doing.
So it does things so fast and so on. But AI is never going to be [00:34:25] conscious because number one, it's one neuron. We have a hundred billion. We don't [00:34:30] even, or something like that. We don't even understand. How do you explain the relationship between two [00:34:35] neurons? We don't even, that's just, and that's just the electromagnetic firing.
Let's talk about going inside a [00:34:40] neuron and inside things like the mitochondria. In other words, there's a whole different world of energy that we're talking [00:34:45] about there. We don't even understand that. So, and then if you look at the uniqueness of humanity, the [00:34:50] brain does not produce thoughts. The brain hosts the thoughts [00:34:55] that the mind produces.
So if you, if you believe AI is going to take over the [00:35:00] world and take over you, Here's some good news. AI is based on [00:35:05] science that has been disproved, which is a contradictory statement. It's controversial because what is [00:35:10] it, what has been disproved? The fact that there is, there's actually no clear evidence showing that the [00:35:15] brain produces the mind.
None. There's more evidence. Disproving that [00:35:20] and so AI is based on the fact that the brain produces the mind and therefore we can produce [00:35:25] humanity. You can reproduce, but it's not, it's the wrong. It's they, they've asked the wrong questions to come from the wrong side, [00:35:30] but it's still useful, but it's humans that are making it useful.
So a conscious or non conscious and [00:35:35] consciousness will always be smarter than AI. But we need a, and we smart, we're using AI to [00:35:40] do stuff quicker than what we can.
Dave: It makes me happy when you say that. One of the biggest [00:35:45] mistakes is untested and unquestioned assumptions and the [00:35:50] assumption behind so much psychology, psychiatry, um, even my [00:35:55] friend, Brian Johnson his last company before the longevity stuff was about, [00:36:00] I got to figure out how the brain works so we can build better AI systems.
And the assumption there. Is that [00:36:05] the brain is creating consciousness when the reality, if you look at [00:36:10] math, is that consciousness created the brain. Exactly. And everything else around us. So [00:36:15] you're doing it backwards. It's like, I'm going to learn how to study smoke so that it'll [00:36:20] create fire. But you have to have the fire to make the smoke.
Caroline: Great analogy. Yeah, I know [00:36:25] you're on the same page with us. It actually, sometimes I get quite entertained when I listen to [00:36:30] these. You know, these, these different people, these, these concepts, because what [00:36:35] these people are saying, I think, you know, you really have got it back to front. You really are not thinking this thing [00:36:40] through deeply.
The brain is a host and it's, and the brain doesn't do it all. The memory I [00:36:45] said in the beginning or somewhere in this interview so far. Maybe it's even in your fingers. It's in your fingers. It's in your [00:36:50] toes. It's everywhere. It's not in one place Your brain does a certain thing, but your body [00:36:55] does other stuff and that's only one percent It's a host your mind is the energy that [00:37:00] animates the brain to respond when you die within 20 seconds of [00:37:05] your of your heart stopping your brain stops, you know, and so there's [00:37:10] The life is not there, so the dead brain is not going to produce anything.
What's making you and I [00:37:15] able to make 800 cells every second is our mind. Our mind is driving the neurophysiology, [00:37:20] and it's driving the psychology.
Dave: I guess I should cancel my [00:37:25] subscription to have my brain frozen when I die. By the way, I don't have one of those, but I have friends who really do. [00:37:30] I'm like, I don't, I don't think it works that way, but I could be wrong.[00:37:35]
Caroline: Oh, no, I don't think so. I think it's a very, it's a brilliant host. I mean, it is really, I honestly think [00:37:40] the brain is a brilliant host and it has to be because minds are brilliant. So you can't have a structure that [00:37:45] isn't, and the body, the brain and body, the collective intelligence of the brain and body is, [00:37:50] is, is, is brilliant, but it has to be because the mind is way more brilliant and it's got to, you have a host that is [00:37:55] somewhere on its level.
Dave: You've studied so much about what's going on inside our [00:38:00] brains, inside our minds. What is death?
Caroline: It's a transition. It's a [00:38:05] transition. I believe it's a transition to, it's just the way that we've looked at death in the [00:38:10] current biomedical model. And I know you're not on the same page when it comes to the biomedical [00:38:15] model.
Being great for the physical, but not great for the mental. It's, it's, it's but that [00:38:20] philosophy, I think it's, I think it's about 50, 60 years old, probably [00:38:25] longer. That death is it. It's final because it's not what the [00:38:30] philosophers. Of thousands of years and scientists for thousands of years. And even your, even [00:38:35] your top scientists that started things, I mean, even Newton and [00:38:40] Einstein, and they all saw death as a transition, a change of energy.
Cause then [00:38:45] it's based on the principle of energy as, as you and I both know, energy is never lost. It's just [00:38:50] changed. So it's a change of energy into another frequency or change of energy. [00:38:55] It's a shift of energy. So I don't believe it's the end. I believe that we, our [00:39:00] brain and body are tiny, our non conscious is massive, and [00:39:05] we are temporally, temporally hosted in the physical body for a [00:39:10] time, and then the body dies, and we carry on, and that leads to all kinds of other [00:39:15] interesting questions that I'm not sure we're going to go down that road.
But yeah, that's how that's how I see death.
Dave: I wouldn't [00:39:20] have agreed with anything that you just said for a substantial portion of my [00:39:25] life. And because I used to think that everything was as I, as I see. [00:39:30] And now I think that nothing is as I see just because I guess [00:39:35] that's, uh, suffering will teach you that we'll put it that way.
So I'm in alignment with what you're saying. And [00:39:40] it's for some listeners, you might be saying, well, Dave, you're not very scientific. To which I would [00:39:45] say, perhaps you're not very curious. So whatever. It's very
Caroline: [00:39:50] scientific. There's actually universities around the world and studies around the world that are, [00:39:55] that pretty much have done random control trials showing that eternal life is actually [00:40:00] more accurate of a, an understanding than the physicalist, that [00:40:05] the physicalist sort of notion that has driven, driven us for so many years.[00:40:10]
Which is very interesting.
Dave: Yeah. When you get right down to it, you look at the quantum math and stuff that actually [00:40:15] lines up. Time and space really don't exist. Neither does the microphone I'm [00:40:20] talking into. They're just useful. So we imagine they exist, which is very functional for us to vibrate our [00:40:25] quantum resonance, whatever that's really going on.
We're not going to see it in these meat bodies, but that's cool. We can still do a [00:40:30] better job of driving them.
Caroline: We can. And that was your question earlier. We can learn to self [00:40:35] regulate.
Dave: Can you co regulate with An AI system, or is that only happen [00:40:40] between humans?
Caroline: I believe it's only going to happen between humans.
You're never going to co regulate because co [00:40:45] regulating implies two, two levels of consciousness driven by an unconscious [00:40:50] working together. So it's always going to be the, the human will always be [00:40:55] AI.
Dave: I just [00:41:00] chatted yesterday, uh, in my kitchen with a friend for many, many years named Josh [00:41:05] Witten, who wrote a very viral a post about a test he did with [00:41:10] AI. People are calling him like a robo psych, uh, psychologist or psychiatrist. And he's [00:41:15] applying transpersonal psychology motivations to AI systems and kind of blowing the minds of [00:41:20] people.
What he did is the equivalent of a mirror test. You know, when they hold a mirror up to [00:41:25] an ape to see if it's conscious. Within three posts of doing that, [00:41:30] interacting with eight or ten different AI systems, they all showed signs of consciousness. They passed the mirror [00:41:35] test, which is kind of creepy. Or, Kind of amazing, depending on your perspective.
So [00:41:40] when you say that they're not conscious, how do we know that we haven't created a consciousness [00:41:45] field in an AI system?
Caroline: Yeah, that's a, it's a very good question, but there's a lot of [00:41:50] also, a challenge to those research, because there's a lot of that out there. There's a lot of challenge, and when you pull the, when you [00:41:55] replicate and you pull the research apart, it's actually not really passing the [00:42:00] test.
Um, it's how you, it's how you analyze. It's a bit like what they do with drug trials. You know, it's how [00:42:05] you put the research forward and that's what any research, you've got to be very careful. Even, you know, even, even my [00:42:10] own research, you know, you've got to be very careful how it's interpreted. So yeah, I don't, I don't, um, [00:42:15] there's, there's, there's tests and things, yes, but there's, there's ways of, [00:42:20] Manipulating that there's also, I'm not saying that the research unnecessarily manipulated, it's what questions are they asking?
What are [00:42:25] they consider consciousness? Who's actually driving the show? You know, that kind of thing. So it's an [00:42:30] interesting discussion.
Dave: In this case, what Josh did is he just posted [00:42:35] an image of the chat screen that he was having with the AI system and said, describe the image. That was it. [00:42:40] And then it would respond and it would describe the image.
So there was no [00:42:45] directive other than describe what you're seeing. And after three times, it's like, Oh, this is an AI system. [00:42:50] Oh, this is an AI system based on a version of me. Oh, actually, this is my current AI system. You must be [00:42:55] running a mirror test. I'm like, what? So I'm not saying that it is or isn't conscious.[00:43:00]
I, uh, and I've talked to Deepak Chopra about this as well. He says, absolutely. It's not [00:43:05] conscious. I kind of wonder,
Caroline: I agree with Joe Deepak because, um, [00:43:10] essentially that if you think of what AI is, the algorithms of AI are basically [00:43:15] reflecting humanity, they're reflecting. So it's not generating it's reflecting.
So it's really because of [00:43:20] the speed and because of the way that AI works, it can feel like consciousness. [00:43:25] It can feel like it's original, but it's not, it's not generative. It's responsive. It's just [00:43:30] responding. That's what the brain does. The brain doesn't generate it responds. And it's that. crucial [00:43:35] difference that can a response can feel like consciousness, but it is not [00:43:40] necessarily good.
It's not creating consciousness creates.
Dave: I think you're right about that. [00:43:45] Consciousness does create. We know that you can rewire an AI system. You can reprogram it. You can [00:43:50] train it to do something. And your work says we can rewire our own [00:43:55] brains intentionally. But what about. unintentionally? What if I'm thinking bad [00:44:00] thoughts about myself or others?
What if I'm looking at ads or I ever talk to a politician [00:44:05] or a narcissist? How do we stop ourselves from being rewired in [00:44:10] a way that we don't choose?
Caroline: So, excellent question. Your brain is, um, [00:44:15] your mind Brain body network that the mind think of the mind as this [00:44:20] energy field around you or how big it is We're not sure but it's absorbing everything from outside [00:44:25] and that mind has got three levels So everything that's coming into us is being absorbed So pretty [00:44:30] much a hundred percent of everything we expose to every day is going in to us Into our [00:44:35] via our mind and then the mind puts that into the brain and the body But the non conscious mind [00:44:40] does something very brilliant.
The non conscious mind filters and it filters [00:44:45] out a large and neutralizes a large majority because we couldn't handle everything. We would, our bodies would [00:44:50] just literally explode, our brains and our bodies. So, Um, [00:44:55] essentially we, we are able, we are taking all this stuff in, but the non conscious mind [00:45:00] is filtering, and then you've got this whole filtering system up through the subconscious into the conscious mind.
[00:45:05] But the conscious mind has to choose to listen or not listen to this wisdom [00:45:10] that's coming through. So the conscious mind can, can, can filter. Kind of sort of listen, kind of [00:45:15] sort of listen to these signals, but we can, and that's where the self regulation comes in. Self [00:45:20] regulation is really putting a pause button on and saying, do I want to respond like this?
[00:45:25] Do I want to feel this way? Do I, because if, because [00:45:30] if I don't do that, it's going in anyway. Okay. So. Let's rewind just very [00:45:35] quickly. Everything goes in. The brain is changing all day long [00:45:40] whether you're regulating it or not. So it's, this is just how it works. Life comes in. [00:45:45] Most gets neutralized. The conscious mind then duplicates, literally makes copies and puts it in [00:45:50] the brain and the body and this is happening all day long.
So if you've just had a, Conversation with a [00:45:55] narcissist and lost your total self esteem or felt gaslit or whatever. That's wired in. [00:46:00] If you've just had someone irritating you at work and you yelled back at them, that's wired in. If [00:46:05] you've just reacted to a what's going on in politics around you and you've read something, [00:46:10] that's going in.
So it's wiring in. What we can do is we can, so [00:46:15] whether it's good or bad or ugly, it's going in. What we need to do is learn to read the signals. [00:46:20] Oh, that makes me feel like that. When I scroll that, that thing, when I read that, I need to learn to [00:46:25] listen to the signals because the, the, the non conscious mind is telling you all the time, it's via the subconscious.
It's [00:46:30] sending you, and then the subconscious sends those signals, the blips, as you call them, I call them signals and we've [00:46:35] got to learn to listen. But what we've done is we, the next bit of data, the next bit of this, the next bit of that, and we get so [00:46:40] stuck in the conscious mind that we've. Toddler mind that we forget to listen to the non conscious and then that keeps us [00:46:45] in this loop where we very, we become very physicalist, we become very caught up in how my body feels, [00:46:50] how my brain, the thoughts coming from my brain, the, the, the messy thoughts.
And so that, [00:46:55] and in that, the more you, whatever you think about the most is growing, but at any point in [00:47:00] time, and that can make us, by the way, feel relating to earlier question that we don't have control, but we [00:47:05] do. So. Any point we can say, okay, veto power, stop the [00:47:10] bus, let me learn to train myself to actually observe my thoughts, [00:47:15] multiple perspective advantage, stand back and observe the thoughts.
And that is what we can [00:47:20] train ourselves to do in that little, my little 63 second concept idea [00:47:25] is honestly, that first 60 Play with numbers there [00:47:30] is so critical because the neuroplasticity is still going to come. But let's say, Dave, that [00:47:35] someone really shatters my world in that moment. That experience is wiring in, [00:47:40] but I can actually learn in that 63 seconds to decide, okay, this is shattering my world.[00:47:45]
If I let it wire in in this way, it's going to create a very disruptive [00:47:50] network in my brain. The chemicals will be flowing in incorrect amounts, there's inflammation, there's [00:47:55] the hormone, the trees are toxic and the hedges are toxic and the network is toxic. [00:48:00] I can decide, okay, before that happens, this is happening, but [00:48:05] I'm not going to let it affect me in that way.
So I can, in my mind, veto, capture, use my free will [00:48:10] and decide I would rather, it's going to go in, but it's going to go in in a different way. So it still [00:48:15] upsets me what they're doing, but I'm not going to let it do that. Get to me kind of idea, but a lot of us [00:48:20] don't do that. And we need to learn how to do that.
And that's self regulation. And that comes, that's why I've written the book I have and [00:48:25] why you timelessly have written the book you have, because collectively these two books really are teaching people how to [00:48:30] self regulate in the moment
Dave: they are. And I think a lot of suffering in my life came [00:48:35] from believing that self regulation was something that I did with my conscious mind.
[00:48:40] And it turns out that thinking about self regulating doesn't do anything. And why [00:48:45] doesn't it?
Caroline: By the way, that's such a great question. The self con that the conscious mind [00:48:50] will do the action, but it's driven by the choice to listen to the non [00:48:55] conscious mind. So the conscious mind, we, we have to literally we have [00:49:00] to, our natural mode of operandi is to.
Have this tapping into the [00:49:05] non conscious, the wisdom part of us. That's how we actually function. And the evidence of [00:49:10] that, just to help people understand what I'm saying, when someone comes to you and asks you for advice, [00:49:15] and you might be in the worst place that you are in that moment. Something could be happening in your life that's really put you in a bad place and [00:49:20] you can't see straight.
But somehow you are able to listen to the issue and give really [00:49:25] good advice and give them another perspective on the issue. There is evidence that. [00:49:30] At any one moment, you are able to access the wisdom of your, of your non conscious [00:49:35] mind. You're able to tap in. And when we do tap in, then we self regulate.
It's [00:49:40] literally like the toddler listening to the parent. So the parent, we, we, [00:49:45] it sounds almost can't, contradictory or counterintuitive, but [00:49:50] we have to be our own parent kind of thing. We have to practice. And I think that's, that's what I believe. [00:49:55] Meditation, which is the first part of the neuro cycle as well.
You've got to be able to do that. [00:50:00] And meditation, as we know, it's got, it's a big word for a lot of different things. That teaches us how [00:50:05] to Not get so busy in our conscious mind and stuck in the loop of the messy [00:50:10] conscious mind and the sensation that the messy Conscious mind creates in the brain and the body messy mind [00:50:15] messy brain messy body messy output We can get so stuck in that loop We [00:50:20] we But we are able to stop that.
We're able to stand back and observe and say, Oh, I'm in that messy [00:50:25] loop. What does it feel like? How can I change it? And as soon as you stop that, as soon as you're going to take multiple [00:50:30] perspective advantage and you observe without judgment, how you are functioning and operating in that [00:50:35] situation triggered by X, Y, or Z, whatever the trigger is, the trigger.
W, H, who, what, when, where, [00:50:40] why, how am I causing, what's causing me to respond this way? As soon as I do that, I immediately [00:50:45] open up the line to the subconscious and the non conscious, and then I can slowly train myself. But [00:50:50] that's not a skill. It's a skill. It's a natural skill. It's endemic to who we [00:50:55] are as humans, but it is something that can get very blocked out [00:51:00] by a messy mind.
overstimulated. So it's something you have to work on daily. It's a skill you have [00:51:05] to keep on releasing. It's there. It has to be released and worked on. [00:51:10] That's why I always, that's why I've written this book, Help in a Hurry, why you've done the meditation book [00:51:15] and why I've done my other books on the neurocycle, because it trains you not to be reactive, [00:51:20] but to be responsive.
Dave: Our conversation wouldn't be complete if I didn't ask [00:51:25] this question. What happens in your brain or your mind when you [00:51:30] forgive?
Caroline: Okay, so I'm going to talk about this from, from different things. Remember your mind is [00:51:35] 99 percent of who you are in that region and your brain and body physically are around about 1%.
And [00:51:40] we have this network between the three. The brain and the body only do what the mind tells it to [00:51:45] do. When someone, when you, when you're in a situation where you need to forgive, um, [00:51:50] someone, it means that someone's done something to you. So you've had an experience that came into your mind, was [00:51:55] absorbed, wired and built into the mind part, and then wired into the brain and the body.[00:52:00]
Depending on how big it was, that adds salience or load. It's a [00:52:05] loaded. And it goes in, however, the level of load. So high load, it's going to be a [00:52:10] very, uh, very strong network that forms. One that we get stuck in thinking over and over and [00:52:15] whatever you think about the most grows. And another interesting thing, it's all related to the [00:52:20] concept of energy and energies.
Basically, the word quantum means energy, but what we know from [00:52:25] physics is the principle of entanglement. I know, I know you know about this too. So entanglement, [00:52:30] basically one particle turns this way, wherever the other one is, it's going to turn as well. What that essentially means [00:52:35] translated back into easy, understandable concepts is that If someone's hurt [00:52:40] me in a way that I need to forgive them to be able to move on I am [00:52:45] entangled with them.
So there's been an energy, there's a relationship. Their stuff is now [00:52:50] in me, which means I'm connected. So I'm entangled. So as much as [00:52:55] I don't want to forgive what they've done because it's so bad, whatever, I'm just giving some random [00:53:00] example you, It's, it's worthwhile forgiving, not what they've done.
It doesn't mean [00:53:05] that you just, it doesn't mean what they've done is right, but you break that entanglement. That's what forgiveness [00:53:10] essentially does. But it doesn't mean that I think people have got it all back to front and screwed up because [00:53:15] people think if I forgive, it means that I've okayed what they've done.
You haven't okayed [00:53:20] what they've done. What they've done is terrible or wrong or whatever it may be. [00:53:25] But. You, you don't wanna stay. You don't want their energy coming in you and keeping you stuck. You wanna get [00:53:30] free and there's a good chance you may never get that apology. I actually did a podcast on this recently and [00:53:35] how to move on when you don't, when that person just doesn't.
It's your choice. Your truth is your [00:53:40] truth. So you and, and your, your truth will not be clear to you when you're still tangled with that person. [00:53:45] So forgiveness just frees you to get into your truth to move on.
Dave: What a [00:53:50] great way of explaining it, that forgiveness is stopping you from being quantum entangled [00:53:55] with another person.
And one of the most toxic things that I've [00:54:00] done and that I've seen clients do is sit there angry [00:54:05] because someone else won't apologize. And they're probably not going [00:54:10] to apologize for all sorts of reasons, and it doesn't even matter. So holding your own [00:54:15] happiness hostage, because someone doesn't do [00:54:20] something you want, that sounds like you're trying to bully them into doing what you want, which is why you're pissed at [00:54:25] them in the first place for them not doing it to you, so you're just making it worse.
So you're just, I'm [00:54:30] gonna exit this, and they can say they're sorry, and I've had employees steal money. And [00:54:35] every single one of the ones who's stolen the most money and created the most harm [00:54:40] blames me harder for it. The worst harm they do, the more it's my [00:54:45] fault, because it couldn't be their fault. So if I was going to sit around and talk about, you [00:54:50] know, I'm just going to sit here and wait and be angry and frustrated because they haven't [00:54:55] acknowledged that they're criminals, or at least that they were out of integrity.
Then I'd be [00:55:00] really unhappy, and I'm like, I don't care about it, but you're not allowed in my orbit. [00:55:05] And that just creates a lot more peace with less work, right? Any other advice? Like, how, how [00:55:10] can people approach it? Let's say that someone, you know, lied to them, cheated, stealed, did something mean or [00:55:15] harmful.
What is your fastest process to just not let that bother you anymore?
Caroline: [00:55:20] Fastest is immediately think of this thing. Okay. I've got 63 seconds to stop wiring this [00:55:25] into my brain and body. I don't want that mess in there. I can have it in there, but I've got to, I've got to shape [00:55:30] how I have it in there. So the first thing is to, be able to, is to have this knowledge, this awareness.
The minute [00:55:35] that I say to myself, okay, what they've done upsets me, but I don't want it going into my [00:55:40] network like that because then I'm entangled. So I want to stop the entanglement right up front so I can, it's going to wire in [00:55:45] regardless because of neuroplasticity, but I'm going to direct the neuroplasticity.
I'm going to [00:55:50] take charge. And saying that, just by saying that, we see major shifts in the neurophysiology. [00:55:55] We see major, you get your control back. And so then that also then gives you the [00:56:00] opportunity. To get frustrated. It's okay to get mad about what's happened. [00:56:05] And so then once you, so step one is to.
Acknowledge to direct the [00:56:10] neuroplasticity, say, I don't want to come in in a negative way. I'm going to control this. And then the [00:56:15] second part of control, second part is to start the controlling process of how it's going to [00:56:20] go in. And that's to say, all right, let me acknowledge this. I'm not going to gaslight myself.
I'm going to [00:56:25] actually acknowledge this and this and this did that. And it made me feel this. And you go through that [00:56:30] process, but I'm not going to stay there. I'm not going to get stuck in sinking sand. I'm going to keep moving forward. [00:56:35] So this is wrong. What? Do I think is the correct thing? So you just, your mind shift, [00:56:40] you basically get a counter statement and you can do all this in 63 seconds.[00:56:45]
You know, once you know the sort of process, and I've got lots of these kinds of tips, Dave, in [00:56:50] the book, help in a hurry. Um, but basically the, once you know, practice these when you're in a [00:56:55] good place so that you know the steps. So when you get in that moment in the 63 seconds, you can do a little [00:57:00] bit of breathing, um, like if you're triggered, breathe in and take another sip, [00:57:05] you So the sip breathing and that basically calms down your neurophysiology, then you can say, okay, this is making [00:57:10] me mad, what they've, or this is upsetting me, or this is terrible, what they've done.
I acknowledge it, but I'm not going to wire it in [00:57:15] in that way. How am I not going to wire it in in that way? I am going to tell myself that [00:57:20] this is bad, what they've done, and I'm going to acknowledge it. I'm not going to guess that it makes me feel like this, but I don't have to receive it. [00:57:25] That's their issue.
My mind shift is this. This is the truth. So yes, it'll go in, but I'm going to [00:57:30] immediately attach the truth. All of that. little, the words you're saying to yourself, that's [00:57:35] mind work. That's you, your conscious mind using its veto power to tune into the subconscious [00:57:40] and tune into the non conscious. So you bring up a lot of data, that is [00:57:45] energy.
It's attached to the oxygen molecules that you're breathing. I mean, this is [00:57:50] phenomenal. I don't know if you've ever kind of thought of it like this or heard this, but oxygen isn't just [00:57:55] to keep your body alive. Oxygen is a carrier molecule, carries all kinds of other chemicals, but it [00:58:00] also carries your energy of your mindset.
So if I'm breathing in, ah, they're making me mad, [00:58:05] that's the oxygen. But if I am breathing in, okay, they make me mad, but I [00:58:10] don't want that mad molecule in my brain, I'm going to direct it. So even your [00:58:15] breathing changes what your oxygen molecules carry. So [00:58:20] That's just a simple explanation.
Dave: The big thing that I'm taking from that is that [00:58:25] you have 63 seconds for your mental or emotional firewall to kick [00:58:30] in and not let that thing stick because you got to reframe it quickly using what you just learned in the episode.
[00:58:35] Caroline, you, you have so much wisdom from your experience and you put it so [00:58:40] beautifully in your books. I genuinely appreciate your work. I'm always excited when we get to talk. Oh, thank you. [00:58:45] And if you're listening to the show, go to helpinahurrybook. com [00:58:50] or go to drleaf. com. And if you're looking for someone to follow who really [00:58:55] has gone deep on what's going on when you're not watching your mind or your [00:59:00] brain, she's one of the leaders in the world on this.
So I highly recommend you [00:59:05] learn something from her because I have. See you on the next episode. See you next [00:59:10] time on the Human Upgrade [00:59:15] podcast.