Dale: [00:00:00] The U. S. spends over 300 billion per year on Alzheimer's disease. [00:00:05] If we do nothing, 45 million of the currently living [00:00:10] Americans will die of Alzheimer's. You could find a 20 year old and know that this person is already [00:00:15] beginning to go down the biochemical path that will ultimately have a diagnosis of [00:00:20] Alzheimer's.
Host: Dr. Dale Bredesen is a leading neurologist and pioneering Alzheimer's researcher whose [00:00:25] groundbreaking work is changing the way we prevent and reverse cognitive decline. He's not just treating [00:00:30] memory loss, he's rewriting the future of brain health.
Dave: That explains why [00:00:35] there are people who push back against you.
Because if you could take someone in their 20s and stop them from getting Alzheimer's, [00:00:40] think of the profit loss. for the pharmaceutical industry. There was a drug in the last few [00:00:45] years for Alzheimer's approved by the FDA that in studies didn't help [00:00:50] Alzheimer's but they just felt we needed to say we had a drug for it.
Tell me about that. [00:00:55] You're listening to The Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.[00:01:00]
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It's a great way to go deeper into the content and connect [00:01:20] with other biohackers like you. So leave a comment for me. Yeah, I'm actually gonna read them. And poke around [00:01:25] while you're there, there is a lot of stuff specifically for you. It really helps, and it means a lot to me. [00:01:30] The topic of this episode is near and dear to me.
My [00:01:35] grandmother was a PhD nuclear engineer. And she didn't get Alzheimer's until late in [00:01:40] life. But when she was a hundred, If I gave her stuff that [00:01:45] activated mitochondria, gave her some things that increased ketones, the other things that [00:01:50] we know help with Alzheimer's, she would talk about, you know, capturing [00:01:55] particles in wax, long, long ago in the nuclear [00:02:00] energy program.
And if I didn't give those to her, she would watch [00:02:05] infomercials. And the difference was profound. And I've seen so many people [00:02:10] get Alzheimer's and so many people with family members who have it. And [00:02:15] I even wrote a New York Times bestselling book once about cognitive enhancement, and [00:02:20] most of the research there came from Alzheimer's research.
Because [00:02:25] understanding what makes brains weak also teaches us what makes brains [00:02:30] strong. And then, I had a guest on the show. And it blew my mind [00:02:35] because I've been saying for years, you can avoid Alzheimer's. It's part of longevity and this is the [00:02:40] first very well credentialed doctor, researcher, neurologist, [00:02:45] who straight up said you can cure Alzheimer's disease, who unpacked the code and said there's [00:02:50] multiple types and here's the cause and now almost a decade later, Decade [00:02:55] later.
He's got the data to prove that what he said was true. Third time on the show. [00:03:00] My friend, Dr. Dale Bredesen, top Alzheimer's expert in the [00:03:05] world.
Dale: Welcome. Thanks so much, Dave. Always great to talk to you. And you brought up something really [00:03:10] important, which is that we tend to think of Alzheimer's as a disease.
And [00:03:15] normal cognition as something that's unrelated. And in fact, these two are intimately related, [00:03:20] just as you pointed out. So when you are doing the things that help people who are [00:03:25] developing Alzheimer's, whether they are far along, whether they're early in the course, [00:03:30] you're actually, those same things help us have better cognition.
You mentioned, for [00:03:35] example, ketones, mitochondrial support, things like that. So these are [00:03:40] intimately related.
Dave: So good. And what that means is that when we study brain illness, we're studying [00:03:45] brain performance. Absolutely. Performance is the key. After all this [00:03:50] time working with many, many different Alzheimer's patients and [00:03:55] doing hardcore clinical research, is Alzheimer's optional today?
Dale: [00:04:00] Absolutely. And I know that people keep pushing back and saying, you know, how can you say [00:04:05] that? Well, because we understand the earlier and earlier stages now, [00:04:10] so the reality is the if we do nothing, [00:04:15] 45 million of the currently living Americans will die of Alzheimer's. So it [00:04:20] dwarfs the pandemic where we have over 1, 000, 000, but if people [00:04:25] would start early, Because there are, as you know, there are four stages, and we've talked about these before.
[00:04:30] You don't get Alzheimer's overnight. You go from a pre [00:04:35] symptomatic stage, so you can pick up in the 20s. And by the way, there have been some publications in the last [00:04:40] year, year and a half, showing people in their 20s, you can already pick up [00:04:45] changes. Really surprising.
Dave: So you could find a 20 year old and know they're going to get [00:04:50] Alzheimer's if you don't do something about it.
Dale: You could, yes, you could find a 20 year old and know that this person is [00:04:55] already beginning to go down the biochemical path that will ultimately have a [00:05:00] diagnosis of Alzheimer's, typically in their 20s. 50s, 60s, 70s, that sort of [00:05:05] thing. So the disease that we used to think of as old timers disease that people get in [00:05:10] their 90s is really a disease that gets diagnosed [00:05:15] years later, but that can start in your 20s.
Dave: That explains why there are [00:05:20] people who push back against you. 20s and stop them from getting [00:05:25] Alzheimer's, think of the profit loss for the pharmaceutical industry. Huge. [00:05:30] Wow. Many, many billions. Well, I think that we should tell the pharmaceutical industry to [00:05:35] stick to what they're supposed to do, which is make drugs at an affordable cost with truth behind [00:05:40] them and get out of all the other stuff they're [00:05:45] doing.
Drugs can be so powerful, but when they're manipulating researchers [00:05:50] and trying to suppress what people are talking about so that they can keep people sick, that's when we [00:05:55] have racketeering behavior and it's, it's blatantly illegal. So I'm, uh, [00:06:00] I'm continuously impressed when you and when people [00:06:05] in similar situations as you are just not we're just gonna have the data and you put out so much data and you're just [00:06:10] relentless about it.
Dr. Amen's another example where you say this is a [00:06:15] thing and you no matter how many dollars you spend on advertising. [00:06:20] You cannot cancel reality. Exactly. So thank you for being relentless [00:06:25] about it. There was a piece in the new york times that was not complimentary [00:06:30] and I know you personally and I've followed your [00:06:35] research, you know for a decade wrote a major book on the field What you are saying is real and I would put my [00:06:40] entire reputation on that You might have a mistake somewhere another but directionally you are so on it [00:06:45] so How is it that, uh, something like the New York Times could, [00:06:50] could, you know, write a piece that says that there's no evidence for what
Dale: you're doing?
It doesn't even make sense. It [00:06:55] was really surprising to me to see how much you can actually have an [00:07:00] opinion. rather than actual data. We have data. As you mentioned, we've published a day. We've published [00:07:05] 240 papers now. So these are peer reviewed publications. So we [00:07:10] have a lot of data. And so when I was called, it was called eight months before the article [00:07:15] appeared.
I was contacted by a reporter and who said, I want to do a story on [00:07:20] Alzheimer's disease. And I said, look, I'm not interested in talking if it's just going to be a hit piece, but [00:07:25] if you're interested, if you would consider. talking to about a dozen [00:07:30] different patients, doctors, and others who have firsthand knowledge, have seen these [00:07:35] things happen, have reviewed our data, all these things.
I also sent her data from our [00:07:40] ongoing randomized controlled trial, interim data of which are already highly statistically [00:07:45] significant. So there's just no question. So she talked to all these people [00:07:50] who'd She left out all of that and found [00:07:55] on her own. Found one person who started who'd already [00:08:00] been rejected from a drug study because she was too far along, started very [00:08:05] late and actually did get a little improvement for about six months, but then gave up [00:08:10] and and focused.
The whole article is about that one person and the idea that I'm some [00:08:15] sort of charlatan who's who's pushing this look we've, as you know, it's always [00:08:20] been outcomes first and you mentioned, you know, pharma. Yeah. They're actually [00:08:25] new drug targets. That's what's incredible. We have a really exciting new [00:08:30] candidate based on a new target that negates the effect of ApoE4.
[00:08:35] There are 75 million Americans with ApoE4.
Dave: Okay, let's talk about that for a minute. What is [00:08:40] APOE4 for listeners?
Dale: Yeah, great point. So when you look at risk for [00:08:45] Alzheimer's, and of course, it's some of the things you were referring to, things like mitochondrial function and [00:08:50] ongoing inflammation. But the most common genetic risk, [00:08:55] which is present in about 25 percent of the population, is [00:09:00] APOE4.
So this is apolipoprotein A. which is a, [00:09:05] a, a fat carrying protein. So you think about it, you know, like your butcher, [00:09:10] it's the guy who carries the fat. Okay. What we discovered in the lab and published years ago [00:09:15] was that this thing also binds to specific receptors and enters the [00:09:20] nucleus of the cell and changes the programming toward a more pro [00:09:25] inflammatory state.
So it is a pro inflammatory protectant in [00:09:30] that sense. But as part of that, it, it increases the phosphorylation of [00:09:35] tau. So you're going down that Alzheimer pathway. It increases [00:09:40] the production of A beta and reduces the egress of the [00:09:45] A beta. So you're in, you're changing toward a more Protective state. One of [00:09:50] the big things that we found in the last five years is that you have literally [00:09:55] just the way you go from sleep to wakefulness.
You have connection [00:10:00] mode and protection mode. And so what's happening is when you are in [00:10:05] connection mode, you've got your ketones are good. You're, you know, you're, you're, uh, metabolism [00:10:10] is good. You don't have a lot of, uh, you know, of insulin resistance. You don't have [00:10:15] a lot of inflammation. Things are good.
Then you are in connect connection mode and you can [00:10:20] see it at what's amazing, Dave, you can see it at every level. It changes your [00:10:25] likelihood of thrombosis. It changes your APP [00:10:30] signaling. It changes whether the APOE4 is interacting with DNA [00:10:35] or not and changing these programs, but APOE4 [00:10:40] interacts with 1700 gene promoters and literally [00:10:45] changes the.
State of the cell toward more of a protection, less of [00:10:50] connection. And this is why you can see changes in people in their twenties, thirties, forties, things [00:10:55] like that. So we looked at why is that? What is actually doing that? And what we [00:11:00] found is that there's a specific molecular pathway. We then developed a drug can.[00:11:05]
Very exciting, orally bioavailable, highly brain [00:11:10] penetrant, highly potent, non toxic. Wow. And this thing causes your ApoE4 [00:11:15] to act like ApoE3. Is this going to be affordable? Really striking. It will be affordable, yes. [00:11:20] As soon as we can get it. We want to get it to the point of compassionate use. Oh my god.
Because it's the sort of thing that could [00:11:25] help millions and millions of people. So things are changing. And yes, um, I, [00:11:30] if you, Now that we know what to look for, Alzheimer's is [00:11:35] optional.
Dave: So good. I got a lot of flack when I said [00:11:40] I spent 2 million to reverse my age by 20 years and I'm planning to live to at least [00:11:45] 180.
And that was in 2016. I did that. In fact, there's probably [00:11:50] some angry stuff in the New York Times about it. Whatever. The, the important thing is that what [00:11:55] you just said there would meaningfully drop by probably a trillion dollars [00:12:00] the cost of healthcare in the U. S. over the course of a decade if we just stopped all the APOE4 bad [00:12:05] stuff.
And that's just one of hundreds of longevity. And and health [00:12:10] things that are happening right
Dale: now. Well, the, uh, statistics are very clear. The U. S. [00:12:15] spends over 300 billion per year on Alzheimer's disease. So [00:12:20] a trillion, you're talking about three years, three, three and a half years. So you can have a [00:12:25] dramatic change.
And that's the hope. We really do want to see a reduction in the global burden of dementia. [00:12:30]
Dave: Can we get a little bit conspiracy theory for a minute? Sure. All right. [00:12:35] Now, I believe in emergent behaviors from complex systems, where [00:12:40] you make millions of micro decisions, and they stack up, and then they look like something [00:12:45] intentional.
And so. A big portion of the things we do come from emergent behavior [00:12:50] from just perverse incentives. And then a bunch of other stuff comes from the presence of stupid [00:12:55] people. And this isn't an insult at all. This is a Berkeley economics [00:13:00] professor who defined what a stupid person is and says when they're out there, because we [00:13:05] have random non rational behaviors that don't benefit anybody, that that pulls the system down.[00:13:10]
Okay, so. Interesting, yeah. And then sometimes we have, you know, Just asshole, evil, sociopathic [00:13:15] people running companies. And, if there's 300 billion a year spent on Alzheimer's care [00:13:20] Are there people pushing back against you because they're evil versus just because they're [00:13:25] dumb?
Dale: There's some of both. Um, so what happens is when you have something [00:13:30] that is potentially going to bring your company a hundred billion dollars, of course [00:13:35] your incentive is to start, the incentive is [00:13:40] to focus more on the incomes than the outcomes.
We've got to focus on the outcomes because that's, In the [00:13:45] long run, that's going to be the key. The incomes will come. You know, it will have better targets, will have [00:13:50] better outcomes. But the thing is that the woman who did the, [00:13:55] uh, the, the reporter who did the New York Times article turned out had been [00:14:00] paid.
by a group that is supported by pharma. So what a surprise, you know, [00:14:05] so let's push back on things that are different. Now, the fact of the matter is there will be [00:14:10] some fantastic pharma around as we understand this disease better and better. [00:14:15] But what has happened, unfortunately, is pharma has taken a An idea from [00:14:20] the 1990s, which was let's get rid of the amyloid, which doesn't work, which [00:14:25] exactly and it doesn't work and it doesn't work and it doesn't work, but they keep coming out with.
But if [00:14:30] we get the key opinion leaders, we pay them to say this is a breakthrough, people [00:14:35] will just be stupid enough to continue to do this. And unfortunately, that's what's going on. Here's [00:14:40] the thing that. It blows me away, Dave. We know already that with these [00:14:45] antibodies, if you just take the APOE44 people, that's about 10 percent of the Alzheimer's [00:14:50] patients.
And there are about 7 million Americans who are APOE44 with [00:14:55] about a 90 percent lifetime risk of Alzheimer's. So what
Dave: really And other cardiac stuff. These [00:15:00] people are in trouble. Yeah.
Dale: Yeah. And so But okay, we can, we can do something about it. Get in early, lots [00:15:05] you can do. There's a wonderful group, as you know, APOE4.
info. Well, it turns out that if you just look [00:15:10] at that group, the antibodies actually make them worse than nothing. [00:15:15] So in other words, instead of slowing the decline, which is what these antibodies are supposed to do. [00:15:20] Modestly, they don't make you better. They slow the decline a little bit. If you look at the [00:15:25] ApoE44s, they accelerate the decline.
Dave: I
Dale: bet you that's mast
Dave: cells doing [00:15:30] that. What do you think?
Dale: It may well be. It's, it's something likely that is pro inflammatory, whether it's mast [00:15:35] cells, cytokines, microglial activation, whatever it is. What's [00:15:40] happening today At the major university centers, if you go in as an APOE 4 [00:15:45] 4 and you have Alzheimer's, guess what they recommend?
Something that makes you worse. The AM, [00:15:50] it's something that, I mean, that is directly against the Hippocratic Oath. And yet it's going [00:15:55] on every day. It's hard to believe.
Dave: I'm really Feeling [00:16:00] safer now that there are a bunch of politicians removing our ability to sue [00:16:05] big companies for the harm they cause, like chemical companies, and big pharma [00:16:10] companies who make certain things they can't be sued even if they do things that they know harm you?
Does that make you feel [00:16:15] good about the U. S. government and the way it's regulating the drug industry?
Dale: It makes me double down [00:16:20] on we just have to focus on. Let's get the data. Let's change the world because the [00:16:25] thing that's amazing when there are so many people sticking with stuff that clearly doesn't [00:16:30] make sense.
It really gives an opportunity for more rational approaches to make [00:16:35] huge leaps forward. And I think that's what's going on. That's what's going on with this. Biohacking, that's what's going on with [00:16:40] the drug I mentioned. You know other current drugs that are amazing. One drug for all [00:16:45] cancers. That is a remarkable new approach taken by Dr.
[00:16:50] Vishu Lingappa, MD, PhD, brilliant guy, has, has understood [00:16:55] new mechanisms in cellular function, has one, has [00:17:00] a drug candidate that eradicates all All respiratory viruses. Doesn't [00:17:05] matter if you have RSV, COVID, because it gets at what is required by the [00:17:10] cell to construct these viruses. So it's a new era. There are all these exciting [00:17:15] things that are going to take us in new directions.
Dave: The trick is. to be so [00:17:20] innovative in the world that Big Pharma cannot buy those companies and shut them down fast enough. [00:17:25] Because we both know that there are really effective drugs and techniques and [00:17:30] technologies that have been acquired by Big Pharma so they could shelve them and sell other things.
And this is something [00:17:35] I learned when I had my war against being fat for myself, you know, trying to lose [00:17:40] that 100 pounds. Yeah. I was actually very angry for a while because I realized [00:17:45] that when you're plotting economics, there's The maximum [00:17:50] profitability strategy is sell someone something that makes them fat and [00:17:55] tell them it makes them thin.
Right? Because now you're causing the problem, [00:18:00] and they're spending money to solve a problem you caused. This is diet soda. This is low calorie [00:18:05] junk foods that cause cravings. And whether someone did that on purpose or whether it was an emergency pay for it, I [00:18:10] don't care. That's where you make the most money.
And then when I put butter in your coffee, You make a lot less [00:18:15] money putting butter in your coffee because you don't want to eat any food for the next four hours, but it's [00:18:20] what's good for humans, and it feels like there's enough profit for all of us if [00:18:25] we actually make people healthier, because healthier people will buy other stuff, like IQ enhancing [00:18:30] drugs, like longevity enhancing drugs, and all the other cool stuff that we
Dale: can do, right?
So you can [00:18:35] see why people would push back against that. Wait a minute, you're taking away our profit margin here. Yes. So there are two [00:18:40] fantastic books on this area. One is called Doctored. Uh, and this is [00:18:45] by Charles Piller, of course, and he just goes into the fraud, all the, [00:18:50] the horrible, the subterfuge that is going on in the Alzheimer's field is [00:18:55] lying, cheating, stealing, uh, again, in the name of profit and in the name [00:19:00] of prestige, in the name.
So it's, it's a remarkably revealing book. The one [00:19:05] thing is it stops short of saying, but wait a minute, there's already something you can do. You [00:19:10] don't have to deal with all this crap because there's a lot we can all do. So I was hoping [00:19:15] he would get into that area, which he didn't, but I'm hoping at some point he'll follow up.
And the other book is of [00:19:20] course, Metabolical by Robert Lustig. Oh, yeah, he's been on the show. Exactly. [00:19:25] And just what you're talking about, you know, big food, big pharma, big healthcare, [00:19:30] just, you just go around. You get sick, you know, you get, you pay money, it's a, it's a [00:19:35] horrible situation. And one way or another, there has to be a change in these things.[00:19:40]
Dave: Something happens when people get Alzheimer's. And [00:19:45] I watched this because I ran a longevity nonprofit in the Bay Area. [00:19:50] I was the only guy under. Well, under 60, and I was under 30, [00:19:55] and most of my board members, 70s, 80s, even 90s, [00:20:00] and one former president who's since passed, started getting Alzheimer's and getting some [00:20:05] of the cognitive dementia and became paranoid.
Yeah. And I, I watched the decline. [00:20:10] When you're, when you start to lose your mind, and having been through the [00:20:15] chronic fatigue and just insane brain fog. It's like you don't want to admit it to yourself, so [00:20:20] then you'll do anything you can to not show it to the people around you. So you start [00:20:25] acting erratic, but you're unconsciously trying to just not show this, but it's a [00:20:30] deeply frightening thing when you call on your brain and it doesn't respond.
Yes. [00:20:35] And I feel like that fear is something that makes people easy to program around [00:20:40] Alzheimer's. What's your message for someone who thinks they might have Alzheimer's? Do they need to be afraid [00:20:45] given what you know?
Dale: No, but they need to be active. That's the key. So, you know, you [00:20:50] bring up a really good point because there's been this idea that there's nothing you can [00:20:55] do.
Everybody delays and the doctors delay. We see this all the time. You [00:21:00] know, I went to my neurologist and he said, ah, you're not that bad yet. Come back next year. That's the [00:21:05] last thing you want to do. So, as I mentioned, the You have these four stages, pre symptomatic where [00:21:10] you can already see changes in biomarkers, SCI, subjective cognitive impairment, [00:21:15] MCI, mild cognitive impairment, and by definition the difference between those two is [00:21:20] SCI you can still score normally on testing,
Dave: MCI
Dale: you can't.
But you're still, [00:21:25] you've got your activities of daily living. When those start to go, that's the final phase. [00:21:30] Dementia, by definition. So we can pick this up early now. There are some great blood tests, as [00:21:35] you know, looking at P Tau 217, looking at [00:21:40] GFAP, looking at NFL. By the way, I just had mine done a couple of months ago.
I was like, okay, I want to know these things [00:21:45] to see, am I, I'm now 73, been around for a long time. So, and of course, for the vast [00:21:50] majority of my life, I did everything wrong. Brownie, P Tau, I didn't know, you know. [00:21:55] Pizza, great, you know, so, so, I wanted to know where my brain stands, [00:22:00] and so, great, I was happy to see these are all okay.
If you're under 60, you want to check [00:22:05] them about every five years. It's easy. So, if you start noticing some changes, and of course, [00:22:10] we'd like everyone who's 35 or over to be on active prevention. But if you don't do that, [00:22:15] and you start now noticing just what you're saying, the biochemistry and the [00:22:20] symptoms fit perfectly.
The biochemistry tells us, and the synaptic [00:22:25] biochemistry tells us, this is, if you step back, a network [00:22:30] insufficiency. And you know a lot about networks, obviously. So you've got this beautiful [00:22:35] 500 trillion node network, 500 trillion synapses in your brain. [00:22:40] And as you have too much demand from mass [00:22:45] cells, from inflammation, from cytokines, from all these things, or too little [00:22:50] support, little, too little blood flow, mitochondrial function, oxygenation, which is why people with [00:22:55] sleep apnea are increased risk, toxicity associated, you know, mycotoxins [00:23:00] and things like that.
Dave: Yeah.
Dale: You end up with a mismatch. Your supply is too low. [00:23:05] Your demand is too high. Not a surprise. And again, as I mentioned, you, you know, you go [00:23:10] into, you go from this. connection mode to protection mode, you're now pulling [00:23:15] back and you're making that amyloid and tau that we have vilified over the [00:23:20] years because they are antimicrobial.
And that has been [00:23:25] beautifully documented. And by the way, Dave, taking this, these, all these diseases now [00:23:30] are Network insufficiencies, different networks that have been selected [00:23:35] evolutionarily to have tremendous performance. And so, we've now seen [00:23:40] recently reversal of symptoms of PCA, posterior [00:23:45] cortical atrophy.
ALS CBS, corticobasal syndrome, [00:23:50] a remarkable patient of Dr. Craig Taneo, uh, PSP [00:23:55] progressive supernuclear palsy. So again and again and again, understand. Even Parkinson's, right? [00:24:00] Because the
Dave: dopamine neurons that are energy intensive, they run out of energy, [00:24:05] right? It's similar effects, right?
Dale: If you just simply shut down someone's complex one with [00:24:10] Rotinone or MPP or any of many other things, you end up with Parkinson's.[00:24:15]
Um, so there's some ongoing wonderful work by Dr. Dorsey and his colleagues looking at [00:24:20] what's driving Parkinson's. Why is it that this is on a huge increase [00:24:25] in Parkinson's over the last several years? And they believe that this is because of [00:24:30] increased exposure to specific organic toxins like [00:24:35] TCE and PCE and Dieldrin and things like that.
These are interesting. These [00:24:40] are, some of these are degreasing agents. But the other thing that we've run into recently, of course, [00:24:45] people who have been exposed to burn pits overseas. And Dr. Todd Are you mean all of California? [00:24:50] Yeah, really. Well, and the California fires aren't helping, right? No, they're not.
But, um, [00:24:55] the, uh, but people who have, who have been, uh, in the Middle East and have been exposed to these burn [00:25:00] pits, and Dr. Tanio's patient actually had been a Marine. Oh. And had come back and had [00:25:05] already been diagnosed with corticobasal syndrome. No cases in history of improvement of that. It's a [00:25:10] hundred percent fatal.
And he, he tracked it down to multiple [00:25:15] organic toxins she had been exposed to in these burn pits. And treated her, [00:25:20] and she's Improved so the, you know, we're, we're seeing these in a different light [00:25:25] now.
Dave: One of the biohacking strategies that I, I've recommended for a long time is [00:25:30] Reduce exposure to toxins, increase your body's ability to excrete [00:25:35] toxins.
Yes. These techniques make young people perform better, cognitively, [00:25:40] emotionally, and they make old people young again. Exactly. And then you, of course, up regulate [00:25:45] power production with mitochondria, down regulate inflammation, and neuroplasticity, and there's all these different steps. [00:25:50] And I remember in, um, Headstrong, my, my brain book, I said, [00:25:55] it's very likely the toxic mold, which directly lowers mitochondrial [00:26:00] function, is a cause of Alzheimer's.
And you came out with research, you were [00:26:05] probably already working on it at the time, but you published it shortly after, and we talked about that in the last [00:26:10] show, where you said, it's one of the symptoms. seven major causes of Alzheimer's, but it's [00:26:15] not the only one. What are the other major causes of Alzheimer's?
Dale: Yeah, so great [00:26:20] point. So anything that increases inflammation, [00:26:25] increases toxicity. So french fries. So, yep, uh, [00:26:30] French fries, but again, we have to quit thinking this is I'm fine. I have Alzheimer's. It doesn't [00:26:35] work that way. It's as you said, there's this amazing dynamic. I mean, everybody even [00:26:40] knows days when they're sharper and days when they're not as sharp.
Yeah. You've got this dynamic [00:26:45] change going on and Alzheimer's Simply the situation in which you've [00:26:50] gotten to the downsizing enough, you've gotten to the, you've gotten [00:26:55] off the supply and demand enough that you have pulled back and pulled back and pulled back. And [00:27:00] again, you can pick it up with PTAL. So so the big causes are the common [00:27:05] ones are things that.
Impact, inflammation, toxicity, uh, [00:27:10] and energetics. So it's sleep apnea, it's changes in the oral [00:27:15] microbiome. Mycotoxins are one of the most common. And it's amazing [00:27:20] because they've not even been blessed by the Alzheimer's Association yet. It says, well, we don't, [00:27:25] we don't buy that yet. It's one of the most common causes.
We see it all the time. [00:27:30] Um, of course, gut health. So, um, people who've got leaky gut, that's [00:27:35] another common one. Maybe the most common is metabolic syndrome, [00:27:40] so people who've got insulin resistance, and of course, when we used to grow, uh, [00:27:45] neurons in dishes in the lab, you always have to include some insulin there.
It is a [00:27:50] trophic support for neurons, and so when you become insulin [00:27:55] resistant, you are not supporting those neurons the way you should.
Dave: Oh, that's one of the reasons [00:28:00] that one of the cognitive enhancers. and treatments for Alzheimer's is a [00:28:05] nasal spray where you literally crack open a vial of insulin, put it in a nasal spray and take a hit of it [00:28:10] and your brain clears like that.
But if you do it all the time, you're going to get insulin resistant. Exactly.
Dale: Yeah. [00:28:15] So, you know, we want to be insulin sensitive and that's part of the treatment, part of the optimal treatment. Wow.[00:28:20]
Dave: For [00:28:25] years, I've looked at the American Diabetes Association. So that's a trade [00:28:30] union to increase diabetes and God, the American Cancer Association, those guys, I mean, don't [00:28:35] they just cause cancer? It feels like they have actively resisted everything that stops cancer. [00:28:40] Is the American Alzheimer's Association just a trade group [00:28:45] to cause Alzheimer's to get bigger so their funding can go up?
Dale: I don't think the goal is to [00:28:50] make more Alzheimer's, but I do think the goal is to raise money, uh, and, and to [00:28:55] control the narrative, which is unfortunate. So, when you look at the [00:29:00] source of the money, you know, there's a lot of money coming from pharma, and so, of [00:29:05] course, the group is then going to say, well, these drugs are good.
But objectively, they are [00:29:10] not, and so many people have said that. But when you pay enough key [00:29:15] opinion leaders to say what you want them to say, you're going to change the narrative, which is, which is [00:29:20] unfortunate.
Dave: There was a drug in the last few years for Alzheimer's approved [00:29:25] by the FDA that in studies didn't help Alzheimer's, but they just felt we needed to say we [00:29:30] had a drug for it.
Tell me about
Dale: that. Yeah. I assume you're talking about aducanumab, aduhelm. [00:29:35] Yeah. It's so interesting because it was. Just as you say, they say, well, [00:29:40] we had to have something, so can you imagine, they're like, okay, let's see, [00:29:45] you've got tuberculosis, this doesn't help your tuberculosis at all, but we got to say something, [00:29:50] I mean, it's, this is the sort of chicanery that's been going on in this field.
field [00:29:55] because there hasn't been an understanding of what's going on, which is why we were so [00:30:00] interested in the research. Now the research makes so much sense. We see what's going on. We see how [00:30:05] it relates to normal cognition. We see how early you can intervene. We see how [00:30:10] positive the outcomes. We've had people go from MOCA scores of 18, which is in that [00:30:15] fourth stage, to perfect 30.
Now we've never had anyone go from zero to 30. [00:30:20] The goal. Okay. But we've had people go from significant Alzheimer's to [00:30:25] perfect scores on their MoCAs and others, of course with less improvement. So it [00:30:30] varies depending on how compliant, what are their genetics. This is why I think so many of us should [00:30:35] know where we stand.
You mentioned detox. You can look at your detox genetics, as you [00:30:40] know, with. 3x4 with Intel X DNA, with DNA Life, with a number of these things. I just had
Dave: [00:30:45] Sharon from Intel X DNA on the show. Great. I'm going to get my results. In fact, I got a [00:30:50] text about my results, and as I predicted in my very first book, I have a problem with [00:30:55] folic acid, but folinic acid, not methylfolate, is the one that everyone can [00:31:00] metabolize, even if methylfolate doesn't work.
And that's the one I need. How did I know? I don't know. I guess [00:31:05] just relentless pain. Yeah. So, so she, she confirmed something. So that's a [00:31:10] great thing that you brought that up. One thing that fascinated me about you, [00:31:15] most researchers, they kind of zoom in naturally on one thing. [00:31:20]
Host: Yeah.
Dave: Right? And not Alzheimer's I'm saying, but like one pathway.
Right. Like I'm a tau [00:31:25] guy. Yes. And you're just going to go all in on it and, and then the blinders come on. But you just [00:31:30] listed an enormous set of possibilities that come from different systems in the body. [00:31:35] What makes your brain different? Your research brain is [00:31:40] so spread out compared
Dale: to what we often see.
So, you know, I started as a [00:31:45] reductionist, like everybody else, looking at how can we do this. And as you mentioned, there used to be the [00:31:50] Baptists from Beta AP, uh, uh, Beta Amyloid Peptide and the Tauists from the, [00:31:55] from P Tau. And, you know, the Baptists and the Tauists, it was a joke, you know. It's a great joke.
And, [00:32:00] yeah, but they, but nobody had any results. You know, what he could make people better. This has been part of the problem. You [00:32:05] could be an expert without making a single person better. Now that's changing. So when [00:32:10] we kept going at, you know, what is happening here and kept looking up, we wanted to ask what is [00:32:15] the fundamental nature of this disease?
So I used to go to these meetings with my fellow [00:32:20] scientists and say, we want to know what Alzheimer's actually is. And they look like, what are you [00:32:25] talking about? It's Alzheimer's. Well, but, but wait, how does this work? Okay. And so when we [00:32:30] started looking at all these things, and well, is it, is this pathway involved?
We started to realize, well, wait a minute, [00:32:35] all these different, you know, there are over 200, 000 papers published on Alzheimer's [00:32:40] disease. And so you can exclude the vast majority of theories just by looking at the [00:32:45] papers, right? Wow. So, and of course, with the AI being able to look up all these things so quickly, it's even [00:32:50] easier than before.
But what is, so we wanted to get An idea of [00:32:55] something that actually tells you and predicts what's getting better. And so we [00:33:00] realized this is a network insufficiency. What's happening is your brain is getting [00:33:05] exposed to these various insults, which it's happening all the time. Your oral microbiome, when you look at the [00:33:10] normal brain microbiome and who knew there was going to be one, then what you see in there is [00:33:15] mostly oral and rhinocynal organisms.
So there is this connection, [00:33:20] unfortunately, in some ways. So what we want to do is ask. Okay, what's the brain [00:33:25] doing? And we realize your brain is dealing with these things all the time. And in [00:33:30] fact, you can, you make these prions, which another thing which has been vilified [00:33:35] pronionaceous infectious agents discovered.
They kill a lot of cows for economic reasons, [00:33:40] blaming prions. Yeah. Yep. And, and this of course was discovered by my mentor, Dr. Stanley Prusiner, [00:33:45] won the Nobel prize in 1997 for this brilliant work that he did over the years. But [00:33:50] These are not just proteanaceous infectious agents, they are anti infection, [00:33:55] they're anti microbials.
Oh, so they're being formed for a reason. [00:34:00] Exactly. So you have these insults, your brain responds by making amyloid, [00:34:05] by making tau. Now here's the interesting piece. You can go for years, [00:34:10] as long as you don't have the inflammatory component. These things just [00:34:15] sequester. They're a little bit like your skin or cerumen.
They are [00:34:20] antimicrobial pre inflammatory. So they are before the activation of [00:34:25] the innate immune system, which of course precedes the, the adaptive immune system. So [00:34:30] this is a third and initial. there's a piece that is responding to these [00:34:35] things, as long as you can sequester herpes simplex P. gingivalis, [00:34:40] T.
dentacola, all these various things. Your brain can live with these for [00:34:45] decades, but when they exit this, if you aren't good enough, [00:34:50] or you have apoE4, you're pro inflammatory, you start getting the cytokines, [00:34:55] the mass cell activation, the muscle dehydration. the microglial activation, all this stuff. [00:35:00] Now you have a function compromising situation [00:35:05] instead of a function supporting situation.
Dave: I've had a lifetime of mast [00:35:10] cell activation, toxic mold exposure, Bartonella, heavy metals, [00:35:15] some genetic stuff involved, antibiotics for 15 years every [00:35:20] month because of that thing. So I got a lipid polysaccharides. Let's just say that. [00:35:25] I'm the least likely person to live to 180 and even the least likely [00:35:30] person to be 6 percent body fat and to have the longevity markers that I have, [00:35:35] but I still wonder, am I still at high risk of Alzheimer's [00:35:40] or is this something that through lifestyle that I can absolutely reverse?
I don't have APOE4. I'm [00:35:45] not a 3 3, but I'm a 3 4 like most people.
Dale: Yeah. Okay. So, so you're saying [00:35:50] you have one copy of four and one copy of three. Okay. So, first of all, as far [00:35:55] as can it be reversed, you can always optimize. You can always improve. You know, Professor [00:36:00] Mike Merzenich, a point, who's the father of of brain training, [00:36:05] um, showed that you have plasticity.
Till your dying days. So that's what's [00:36:10] fantastic. You've got this plasticity that goes and if you make it to 180, and I hope you do, you will [00:36:15] have plasticity until then. Well, you're going to be like 203 at the time or something. So let's hang out. [00:36:20] I'm not, I already know. I did so many things during my life, [00:36:25] you know, and I found out all this stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. So I don't think I'm going to make there, [00:36:30] but it's okay. I mean, I'm happy with where things are going here. We're, we're discovering a lot. I'm [00:36:35] hoping I live long enough that we can really see a reduction in the global burden of dementia. That would be [00:36:40] so cool. So the idea though, is that as long as you haven't [00:36:45] lost too many neurons, but you've got too many.
As you know, you've got stem cells, you've got neural stem cells, [00:36:50] and there are going to be things coming along that will increase your neural stem cells, [00:36:55] and so you'll be able
Dave: to get treated with them today, right? Exactly.
Dale: So, so I think you're going to be able to rebuild. So [00:37:00] one of the things that we always face is we want to remove the problem.
from the, remove [00:37:05] people from their mycotoxins, remove people from their metabolic problems, etc. Secondly, we want to [00:37:10] optimize everything, just as you were saying. We want to get their gut so that it's not leaky, so that it's got the right [00:37:15] microbiome. Same for their oral microbiome. Make sure they don't have sleep apnea, all that stuff.
The third [00:37:20] piece is the hardest. We want to rebuild what's already been lost. Yes. And so that's where [00:37:25] things like stem cells come in. Um, but optimizing hormones, that can be helpful. Um, look at the [00:37:30] intranasal trophic factors that are coming along. There's a lot going on. And as, [00:37:35] you know, as you get older, there's going to be more and more available to rebuild.
Plus, [00:37:40] you can already see by your function and your markers, you haven't lost much,
Dave: if anything. [00:37:45] So you should be in great shape. I'm kicking ass. I have an 87th percentile hippocampal [00:37:50] volume. There you go. And, uh, I just went down to RMI. And [00:37:55] I had a focused ultrasound to open up my blood brain barrier with exosomes and stem cells [00:38:00] to go into the hippocampus and also into the hypothalamus, which is, you know, [00:38:05] pretty cutting edge stuff.
By the way, guys, Dave Asprey dot com slash RMI. And there's a link to the [00:38:10] episode about that, because I mean, this is something very few people get to do. It's expensive. It'll [00:38:15] become more effective. And so I'm working on rebuilding anything I lost when I was young.
Yeah.
And I [00:38:20] can tell, like, when does my brain work and when does it not work?
And that's become a reliable [00:38:25] signal, because I used to be a 95 percent it doesn't work today. And I'm just, like, I have the [00:38:30] accelerator all the way down. I'm not going any faster, I'm slowing down. And that's really gone from my [00:38:35] life, except maybe one day every six months when I earned it.
Host: Yeah, yeah. You
Dave: know, I might have [00:38:40] stayed up for two days or something.
Host: Yeah.
Dave: Pretend I'm 19. Okay. And you're going to [00:38:45] tell me three things to do to not get Alzheimer's. Given your entire lifetime of [00:38:50] wisdom. But I'm 19, I got a lot of things to do. I want to go on a date or whatever. So I have [00:38:55] other priorities. Three things, easy, that are going to lower my risk the most.
Dale: Okay.
Number [00:39:00] one, Put in your diary that or put on your iPhone, whatever, that when you hit [00:39:05] 35, you will start getting your biomarkers checked every five years. So you'll be able to see it coming [00:39:10] and it will never, that's the thing. If everybody looks, sees it coming ahead of time, you can [00:39:15] prevent the problem, which is why we talk about it being optional.
Second thing, [00:39:20] optimize your diet. Get rid of the junk food, get rid of the processed food, get rid of [00:39:25] the gluten. Um, you want to have what, what we call, uh, a plant rich, [00:39:30] mildly ketogenic diet. Um, and so we, we call this KetoFlex 12 3, but [00:39:35] it's similar to what everyone's doing. It's a plant rich, not plant only, plant rich, mildly [00:39:40] ketogenic diet.
Appropriate organics so that you don't have all these bad things. you know, Paraquat and these [00:39:45] pesticides, and by the way, Paraquat, big risk factor for Parkinson's. So that would be the [00:39:50] second thing.
Dave: Okay.
Dale: And tell me the third one. Let's talk about
Dave: Paraquat a little bit. Okay. So what's the third thing?
Dale: Gotcha. So [00:39:55] the third thing is, is going to be, uh, it's going to be a close, close [00:40:00] race between, uh, hit exercising appropriately and, uh, [00:40:05] Detoxifying those two. I would say three a and three B just to [00:40:10] make sure you're in good shape. And you're a 19 year old. You do those things. [00:40:15] Um, you're going to see things coming and you're never going to have it.
And that's that's what's so crazy. [00:40:20] We are in the dark ages where doctors Telling patients with full [00:40:25] confidence, there's nothing you can do about this. It just happens. You had a [00:40:30] protein that misfolded and you're going to die and we can't help. I mean, that is a dark age stuff. [00:40:35] One of the things I learned
Dave: from my elders when I'm in my 20s and I'm, I'm [00:40:40] looking at people in their 80s and 90s reversing their age.
Yeah.
Who mentored me is that it [00:40:45] takes a lot of money. and time and work to reverse something [00:40:50] and it takes almost no effort to prevent something. Exactly. And so the, the pennies [00:40:55] you'll spend of effort and money when you're in your late teens, early 20s, just on basic [00:41:00] prevention. Yes. They pay off.
thousands of times better. [00:41:05] It's like getting on Bitcoin in 2012 in terms of your health stuff. You don't have to [00:41:10] be anywhere near perfect. You just have to be directionally better, and then your odds [00:41:15] of bad things like Alzheimer's happening later in life those are much less. But in the [00:41:20] meantime, before Alzheimer's, your brain is going to work better.
Like everybody wins on this one.
Dale: Exactly. [00:41:25] Okay. And, you know, they used to say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. That's going to have [00:41:30] to be changed. An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure because there is this [00:41:35] huge change. As you say, you, you're right. Now what's happening is there are, you know, [00:41:40] million dollars and multi million dollar solutions.
Right. When you get to, you know, [00:41:45] when you get to the later stages, but you want to avoid that there are very simple things that [00:41:50] everyone can do to save life, to save their telomeres, to save [00:41:55] their epigenetics, to save their longevity, to say, and to save their cerebrum.
Dave: It's one [00:42:00] of the reasons that I have so many followers in their mid twenties like that the [00:42:05] top You know 10 20 percent of people who want to do something with their life like oh my gosh This is [00:42:10] so like I'm into it because I felt it now.
Yeah, and they're getting this lifetime benefits And [00:42:15] so all of the stuff that I produce, if only I'd have known when I was 19, like the amount of [00:42:20] money, the millions of dollars and all of the suffering, it was optional. I just didn't [00:42:25] know. You ever go to the zoo and see elephants behind this little fence?[00:42:30]
Yeah. You know how they get them to do that? No. It's called learned helplessness.
Host: [00:42:35] Yeah.
Dave: So what they do is they put them in an enclosure with really, really heavy timber. [00:42:40] Yeah. And they try to bang it down, it doesn't work. After a while they learn they can't do it. So they put a [00:42:45] slightly weaker one. And eventually They're fully convinced there's nothing they can do, and they can just [00:42:50] walk right through the fence.
Right? This has happened in medicine around [00:42:55] Alzheimer's, and it is absolutely tragic. And for every health [00:43:00] condition that exists, there is something you can do. And it may not reverse the [00:43:05] condition, but it can at least make you feel better. It can give you less symptoms, it can give you more time. [00:43:10] And I taught my kids very early on, you're not allowed to say something's [00:43:15] impossible.
You're allowed to say, I don't know how to do that, or I don't have the resources to do that, and [00:43:20] how do we get medicine to get us, we don't know how to do that, but let's try, instead [00:43:25] of, we're helpless, what is the
Dale: switch, because you're not helpless. Right, there's so [00:43:30] much that can be done. You know, I think the way is through training [00:43:35] through there are, you know, more and more physicians training through functional medicine, [00:43:40] through precision medicine, through 21st century medicine, integrative medicine, [00:43:45] all of these things.
And the patients know that that's where they want to go because they [00:43:50] get the results and say, wait a minute. Oh my gosh. So at some point there's going to be [00:43:55] this changeover, but you're absolutely right. The standard right now is to say, [00:44:00] yeah, you have cognitive decline, there's nothing you can do about it.
Oh, there's a breakthrough drug that will [00:44:05] slow it up a little bit for 50, 000 a year. It might make your brain [00:44:10] bleed a little bit, make it swell, rarely it'll cause death, but it's a [00:44:15] breakthrough. Wow. Um, so you're right. There is that learned helplessness and it's been, you know, it's [00:44:20] been so easy. It just rolls off the tongue for people to say.
Nothing can be [00:44:25] done. Nothing can be done. This the standard for years was there is nothing that [00:44:30] will prevent delay or reverse cognitive decline. And yet we've been publishing it [00:44:35] and in seeing it and in trials since 2014. That's
Dave: [00:44:40] also learned blindness because there is something that reduces cognitive decline.
It's called [00:44:45] coffee. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yes, I run a coffee company. I have a bias, whatever, danger coffee, who [00:44:50] knows what you might do. But you look at the studies of dementia and [00:44:55] coffee and you go, Oh my God, there is something, but it's not a drug, therefore it doesn't exist. Right, yeah. Right. [00:45:00] So it drives me nuts.
All right, let's talk about Paraquat. Yeah. [00:45:05] I just did a post online, probably on Instagram, I probably on all the platforms at [00:45:10] this point, about recent legal changes. Paraquat [00:45:15] is illegal to spray in China, and a large Chinese company manufactures it that is [00:45:20] controlled by the Chinese government, and I have no issues with China nobody in any country [00:45:25] controls what their government does, governments do bad shit everywhere.
They're sending this [00:45:30] thing to the U. S. where it's legal to use, and they just passed legislation that it's [00:45:35] illegal to sue the manufacturer of this compound for it [00:45:40] causing Parkinson's, which we already know it does. Yeah. So, talk to me about the mechanisms [00:45:45] of Paraquat and our brains, whether it also would affect Alzheimer's, and [00:45:50] what's going on legally with this?
Dale: Yeah. So, As we were talking about earlier, you know, through [00:45:55] evolution, what's happened is you're optimizing performance over protection and, and [00:46:00] longevity so that you've got these amazing neural subnetworks. So you have [00:46:05] one for neuroplasticity. You can remember more than over 2000 home computers. [00:46:10] It's incredible what you can remember.
Uh, you've got another one which is there for [00:46:15] motor modulation. That's the one that goes awry in Parkinson's. You've got one there [00:46:20] for Power amplification. And by the way, when you go from a thought, which is about a millionth of a [00:46:25] calorie per second to the maximum muscle contraction mm-hmm . Which is about a half a calorie [00:46:30] per second, you get more of an amplification than you do when you stomp down on your accelerator [00:46:35] in your car.
Wow. It's incredible. But all these amazing things, and of course [00:46:40] your macular is another one where you can, you can distinguish over a million different colors [00:46:45] and shades. So these things are high. Energy [00:46:50] requirement systems that have allowed you to survive and to [00:46:55] beat out your competition at the expense of durability.
[00:47:00] And so what happens is different ones. Each one has its own Achilles heel [00:47:05] and in Alzheimer's, we've already talked about. It's things like mycotoxins and it's things [00:47:10] like it's basically the supply and demand for that system in Parkinson's. It's even [00:47:15] more clear that it is. Mitochondrial Complex 1. [00:47:20] Yes. So if you give Rotenone, Paraquat, TCE, [00:47:25] MPP, just go right down the list, anything that will, that will inhibit [00:47:30] Complex 1 increases your risk for Parkinson's.
So I [00:47:35] don't expect to see a lot of Alzheimer's because it's a different system. Because
Dave: it's Complex [00:47:40] 1. Yeah. We know how to Increase complex one mitochondrial function. There's lots of [00:47:45] nutritional and biohacking ways to do it, right?
Dale: Yeah, there are lots and we also know how to circumvent it with [00:47:50] methylene blue.
So you can actually get some circumvention of this, which is why I think methylene [00:47:55] blue has a real future in parkinson's Maybe more so than an alzheimer's disease. [00:48:00] So more work needs to be done on this, but you're absolutely right. Can
Dave: we pause for a second there? [00:48:05] Every researcher I know always says more work needs to be done.
I'm sorry. If you have [00:48:10] Parkinson's, take some freaking methylene blue because it's probably not going to hurt you. You're going to die of Parkinson's [00:48:15] anyway if you don't do something about it. Methylene blue has been in use for longevity for 25 years [00:48:20] plus. The risk is low. Potential benefits are high.
Does more work need to be done or should we just take action now [00:48:25] and do more work?
Dale: Well, yeah, so when I say more work needs to be done, I'm talking about [00:48:30] enhancing it. Oh, okay. I'm with you. Get in earlier and keep on. And by the way, to me, the [00:48:35] most promising thing in Parkinson's is mitochondrial transfusions.
Oh, we just did an episode [00:48:40] on that. So did you talk to Mitrex about that whole gang? You know everything. [00:48:45] Yeah. Tell me more. The brain is important. Yeah, there's so much going on. I think [00:48:50] because what happens when you look at someone with Parkinson's, the mitochondria are not functioning [00:48:55] optimally. So it looks like a pretty good candidate for an [00:49:00] approach where you are increasing mitochondrial function without having to do a hell of a [00:49:05] lot else.
Now, there are things, as you know, ubiquitin mediated degradation of proteins, you know, [00:49:10] there's pink one and, and, and all these sorts of things. Parkin, there are the other genes involved. [00:49:15] But again, you look at the big picture, this is a network insufficiency [00:49:20] related to the motor modulation system and that has, you know, [00:49:25] that has been optimized over the years that is heavily dependent on mitochondrial complex [00:49:30] one and its associated functions.
Dave: Wow. And
Dale: so, there's a pretty clear [00:49:35] path. Mm hmm. And as you know, There's a lot of work going on [00:49:40] with mitochondrial transfusions, but you can't walk into your doctor today and say, give me an [00:49:45] effective mitochondrial transfusion. It's coming, and the sooner the better.
Dave: And I know [00:49:50] that Mitrex is raising, raising some funding now, and they're about to do a 90 [00:49:55] year old, will be their first recipient.
Yeah. And this is something since [00:50:00] 1998 I've wanted to do, is a mitochondrial transfusion because I think my mitochondrial networks are [00:50:05] pretty fucked up, uh, for whatever reason, um, just all of these problems I've had, so. [00:50:10] Join the club, I think many of us do. Yeah. It's like, why wouldn't I introduce a new [00:50:15] population, because they are, you know, individual bacteria at a certain level.
They talk to our nuclear DNA and all [00:50:20] that, but they have their own network. That's not our brain. So let's introduce some diversity to that [00:50:25] network with maybe some more superpowers. Absolutely. If you could get [00:50:30] a mitochondrial transfusion for longevity, would you consider it? Absolutely. [00:50:35] Me too. Yeah. I think that'll be the next stem cells, but it might take, [00:50:40] man, I've been a futurist pretty accurately.
In the direction, but I'm [00:50:45] always aggressive on timing. I think it'll be five years before wealthy people get it. And maybe [00:50:50] 10 to 12 years before it becomes more commonplace like stem cells are today. Yeah. Does that seem accurate? That would,
Dale: [00:50:55] it's funny because I was going to say five years. Yeah, five years is the number I would put on it.
Because you're still going to have [00:51:00] to, you know, you've got to have enough experimentation. You have enough people, enough anecdotes. I [00:51:05] do believe that This compassionate use is something that has been [00:51:10] underutilized. So when you go through phase one, phase two, phase three, that [00:51:15] takes, you know, tens or hundreds of millions of dollars.
And we've got things [00:51:20] where there is nothing. And so compassionate use was meant for that. And in fact, [00:51:25] TB006, which is an anti inflammatory, an anti GAL3, um, has gone through [00:51:30] compassionate use without ever doing a phase two. Phase three and the FDA has approved that the I [00:51:35] believe that this APOE4 negating drug should be compassionately used [00:51:40] before we spend, you know, try to spend many, many years trying to get a phase three [00:51:45] trial.
Let's show that it's safe. Let's show that it's effective. And that's then let's have compassionate use [00:51:50] for these things because these are things that are needed. This
Dave: kind of feels like a learned [00:51:55] helplessness situation to me. So I'm a computer hacker. My brain is trained. [00:52:00] To go around systems that are put in place to stop me from doing what I want to [00:52:05] do.
It's built into my very view of reality, but for better or worse, [00:52:10] right? And it's like, oh, so in the U. S. where health care costs three times more [00:52:15] than anywhere else and has very poor outcomes, They want hundreds of millions of dollars. Well, [00:52:20] fuck them. So, go to a place that will change regulations to a lighter.
Go to [00:52:25] Abu Dhabi. Go to Costa Rica. Go to Roatan. Where, for [00:52:30] probably 5 percent of the cost of doing a drug in the U. S., you can create a drug, you can [00:52:35] start treating people, and then, the people who wouldn't be able to buy it in the U. S. [00:52:40] will fly to you, And bring home a supply and the FDA isn't even allowed to [00:52:45] stop that you can bring any drug in that's not directly illegal with a 90 day supply as long as [00:52:50] any doctor on the planet says you can so like why, why are we spending all [00:52:55] this money like someone who's doing investing, and I do invest in the field, not as much [00:53:00] on pharma, but sometimes invest in the companies who [00:53:05] say, Okay.
Okay. I am going to bring this drug out for 25 million with real [00:53:10] clinical trials, and I don't care about the FDA gateways. The U. S. is not allowed to have this drug [00:53:15] until they change their laws. And when we get a bunch of old, sick, fat, unhappy people who [00:53:20] go on a medical 400 vacation to go pick up their drugs, they will change the laws.
Dale: Am I [00:53:25] crazy for thinking about that? Am I still too hopeful? Yeah, no, I think it's a good point. And I think that there are two [00:53:30] key points here. Number one is the a lot of these laws have come because [00:53:35] they want to make sure to protect people. So I get it to protect people or profits. We have both. [00:53:40] Yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah, that's the problem. You're right. Um, so, so a piece of this [00:53:45] is we don't want to first do no harm. And that's the Hippocrates. That's why it just [00:53:50] It's, you know, so sad to me that people are recommending drugs that we already know are going to [00:53:55] accelerate your decline. Uh, and then I think, you know, the other piece of this is [00:54:00] that you've got to have you've got to have [00:54:05] access for people.
Um, and people, unfortunately, they'll say, look, the U. S. market is [00:54:10] so much bigger than the others that we want to sell within the U. S. And so we don't care about developing [00:54:15] stuff. So I do think it's going to take. Biohackers, and it's going to take people to say, yeah, but we do [00:54:20] care about everybody. We want to make it so that you can get it in Abu Dhabi [00:54:25] or in Riyadh or some other place.
And I do think there is a lot of innovation. You know, [00:54:30] innovation is being exported. That's what's surprising.
Dave: It's crazy. It's all because of regulation [00:54:35] and, you know, Trump is working on bringing all this, uh, industrial stuff back in. We got to bring medical [00:54:40] research back in. Yes. And I'm not proposing that we don't serve Americans.
I'm just proposing [00:54:45] that we serve them last because it's ten times more expensive to make a drug [00:54:50] here. So make it work in India for a billion people. Make it work [00:54:55] all over the planet. And when that happens, Then [00:55:00] it becomes affordable to do a clinical trial because you already have a multi billion dollar company.
Yeah. So I just don't want [00:55:05] to have to raise 500 million dollars, 400 million of which goes to like FDA regulatory, [00:55:10] and only a hundred million goes into science. Let's put the hundred million into science and have a fully [00:55:15] shipping product, even if it's expensive, and I will fly there and buy it, and so [00:55:20] will millions of people, and it feels like innovations like mobile [00:55:25] phones happen that way.
The first mobile phone, you go to LA and there's, you know, some fat studio executive in a [00:55:30] Mercedes 300D with a 40, 000 cell phone that drops calls and costs 20 a minute. [00:55:35] And we're all like, look at that bad man driving with his phone, who does he think he is? He's the guy who funded the dollar cell [00:55:40] phones in Africa today.
And it feels like for longevity and for the drugs you're talking about, make them [00:55:45] available somewhere on the surface of the earth. And the people who need it most will get it and they'll tell everyone [00:55:50] and I feel like this change is going to happen and it's going to just blow up this, the type of [00:55:55] regulatory stuff that isn't really about safety that is about protectionism, but I hope we can keep the [00:56:00] safety in place.
Dale: Yeah, and I think again, this is where innovation is going to be increasingly happening [00:56:05] outside the US because of these anti innovation rules. And one of the problems is, [00:56:10] you, if you are running a drug company, you want the bar to be set high. You don't want to have it to [00:56:15] be easy for people to come, hey, we've got something better.
So, this is, you've got to [00:56:20] get around that. And as you said, it shouldn't cost, you know, the current cost for developing a drug [00:56:25] is around a billion dollars. By the time you get through the research and other, you know, phase threes and [00:56:30] marketing, all this sort of stuff. And of course, the vast majority, Aren't going to work so to get [00:56:35] this so that you can democratize this so that you can develop them outside and develop them [00:56:40] to show.
Look, these are things that are really needed and then bring them back in makes a lot more [00:56:45] sense.
Dave: It does. And this is a pattern that's one of those economic things. We've talked about [00:56:50] disincentives for Alzheimer's,
you know,
in order to braid hair, [00:56:55] You need a two year expensive training program to get a license to braid hair.[00:57:00]
Now, this is not for people's safety. This is protectionism [00:57:05] of the job. That's all it is, right? And I think some of this is happening in the world of [00:57:10] pharmaceuticals. And I want things to be safe. And so we've got to move faster. We've got [00:57:15] to Blow up these things by just going around them and saying, look, you can have this system, but [00:57:20] the people who are most desperate are going to do this.
And it's already to the [00:57:25] point where I can go to Costa Rica, or I can go to Thailand, and I can have access to [00:57:30] technologies that are safe. still not accessible in the U. S. that work better, [00:57:35] and they cost 10 percent as much, and there's a team of five people around you [00:57:40] who you couldn't do this in the U. S.,
so it just feels like at a certain point systems collapse under their own [00:57:45] weight, and our regulatory frameworks for innovation, for longevity, and for chronic diseases, [00:57:50] they're about to collapse in the U. S., and we're paying the cost, because we live here.
Dale: Yeah. [00:57:55] So, you know, when I met you about a decade ago, we were sitting in a restaurant [00:58:00] in Westwood and you were, you pulled out your phone and you said, I have an Uber [00:58:05] coming.
And at the time, that was a pretty new thing. And so, you know, look what happened to the [00:58:10] taxi industry. I mean, this is what's going to happen to the pharmaceutical industry. Oh, yes. Yeah, we need [00:58:15] the Uber of pharma. To have more innovation, to bring on things [00:58:20] earlier, as you pointed out, they're, they're snatching up things before they get that far.
[00:58:25] Yeah. But to be able to develop things more quickly, greater innovation, [00:58:30] yes, of course, there has to be safety, but a lot of this stuff, this, these hundred [00:58:35] million dollar drug trials, I mean, we don't need for most of these things. The need [00:58:40] is too great to wait for a hundred million dollars to be available.
The
Dave: [00:58:45] idea that somewhere in the Constitution, it says that the government has a right to stop [00:58:50] me from being healthy really, really isn't, it's not real. [00:58:55] And the right to experiment is something that a [00:59:00] few health freedom people are working on right now. And I, I remember back in [00:59:05] 2008 my former wife and I started a company that could detect [00:59:10] non antibody responses to implants.
And [00:59:15] a surgeon reached out to us, and this is an unknown technology, and [00:59:20] he reached out and he said, I've been up late for nights and nights because I have [00:59:25] a 10 or 12 year old. who's dying. And I put a chest [00:59:30] expander in. He had that medical condition where your ribs grow in and crush your lungs. I forget what it's called.
[00:59:35] And I put a titanium thing in and he's just started dying. And, and I, I'm [00:59:40] desperate and I don't want to lose this patient. And we ran the test and this poor kid had [00:59:45] massive or massive white blood cell response to the specific implant materials. [00:59:50] So instead of saying, let's take it out and put in a zirconium one, [00:59:55] the, they said, well, it's not approved here.
Right, so his parents gonna have to spend huge [01:00:00] amounts of money to fly to Europe to do it. So we did all the paperwork to get a compassionate exemption and the FDA did grant [01:00:05] it. It was wrong that that surgeon had to do anything other than [01:00:10] order the thing he wanted because he's the doctor. And I want to put power [01:00:15] back in doctor's pockets, not in regulators, not in insurance companies.
What else can we do [01:00:20] in the system today to give you the power to make people healthy faster? It's a great [01:00:25] point.
Dale: It's going to be, you know, as I've said in the past. [01:00:30] When you're dealing with politics, truth is one of [01:00:35] the weakest arguments you have. You're so right. You know, this [01:00:40] is, as we all know, I mean, politics is not about data.
It's not about truth. And [01:00:45] we need to find a way to recognize that there are better [01:00:50] outcomes to be had. And so I do think there's kind of a, It's a two prong. [01:00:55] One is what you talked about earlier, which is innovation outside the U. S., and then [01:01:00] creating, if you remember, what happened with the day after pill that was outside the U.
S., and people said, [01:01:05] hey, wait, we want this. Yeah. And then there's this desire. I mean, the same sort of thing happened, [01:01:10] um, in early days of Uber. The taxi guys were like, you can't do this. This doesn't work. And so then there was [01:01:15] pressure put on them. Don't people want it? Yes, people want this. And so it survived.[01:01:20]
And I think that the other piece of this then will be the inside the US [01:01:25] piece, which will be, you know, interacting with the politicians or showing that, hey, we've got [01:01:30] something that people want. And if people want it, then they're going to support it.
Dave: I would encourage you to [01:01:35] go to whatever AI you'd like and say, hey, help me find every [01:01:40] member of government.
at any level that has a loved one with [01:01:45] Alzheimer's. And when you heal someone's mom, it's really hard, even for evil [01:01:50] politicians, to not pay attention. And not all politicians are evil, but some of them are. So it, [01:01:55] it may be just that, Oh my gosh, I saw this. I cannot let my constituents do this.
[01:02:00] Yeah.
So I, I hope that, uh, hope there's a way.
And if you're a politician listening to this going, this guy's [01:02:05] so bad. Um, as in I'm so bad. Dale's great. Um, you, uh, Look, [01:02:10] if someone in your family has Alzheimer's, it's optional. It actually is optional. And I want [01:02:15] everyone listening to know that. Oh, and women get it twice as much as men, which is why I said your mom, not your dad.
[01:02:20] Now, let's switch gears a bit. You're 73. Yeah. And, [01:02:25] it would be very easy for you to be angry and bitter. Over the fact that you have [01:02:30] this abundance of evidence, 250 papers, you know what's going on. [01:02:35] You're a top expert in the world. And I, I, I can feel people's energy states, I do all the [01:02:40] shamanic stuff. Like you are actually genuinely peaceful and happy inside.
Like this is [01:02:45] not an act. This is just how you show up and you've been consistent for 10 years. What do you do? To [01:02:50] just wake up and have this kind of energy.
Host: Yeah,
Dale: great point that you, you [01:02:55] mentioned that and, and for sure I'm, I'm not a good role model. I, I, I spent most of my [01:03:00] career in sympathetic drive, uh, eating pizza, eating brownies.
You [01:03:05] know, uh, in driving, you know, when I was, uh, when I was training in medicine would stay up all night [01:03:10] all the time. I had huge anger issues and like, how come they didn't publish this [01:03:15] paper? And how we, this is an innovation and how, how dare they, how dare they. [01:03:20] And then, um, one, one day I, this was, uh, now.
[01:03:25] about five years ago. Uh, actually a little longer. So this was just pre pandemic. [01:03:30] I was supposed, I had a whole bunch of things at once. I was really angry. I was really up late at night. I was [01:03:35] supposed to go on TV the next day. And I woke up with atrial fibrillation [01:03:40] at about 3 30. And I'm like, Oh, What is this all about?
Um, I had [01:03:45] never had any sort of heart problem or any of that stuff. If it sucks, it's really a bad feeling. It [01:03:50] is a horrible feeling, and you're wondering like, well, wait a minute, I mean, am I gonna just, am I gonna have a heart attack because [01:03:55] I just can't continue to have my, my ventricular response rate so [01:04:00] high?
And so, um, when I chased down all the things, and I talked to an [01:04:05] excellent cardiologist who is a functional medicine cardiologist, Dr. Mimi Guarneri, She's [01:04:10] fantastic. And so what it turned out was these things have to do with, just [01:04:15] like everything else, there's a beautiful network and it has to do with your mineral status, [01:04:20] has to do with your potassium, your taurine, your magnesium.
It has to do with your [01:04:25] adrenaline. And here's the interesting thing. It has to do with the fact that the left atrium. is a [01:04:30] couple of millimeters away from your esophagus. So anything that's causing [01:04:35] GERD, anything that's causing anything like that, or erosive [01:04:40] esophagitis, if you're drinking, you know, things that are erosive to your esophagus.
Like alcohol. [01:04:45] Exactly. All of these things can contribute. And I realized, okay, [01:04:50] If I keep going the way I am, uh, you know, as the old Chinese, uh, [01:04:55] proverb says, um, if you don't quit what you're doing, you're going to end up where you're going. Uh, [01:05:00] and so I realized I can't do this anymore. I, I need to be, I need [01:05:05] to be more chill.
And so I checked my heart rate variability and I realized, look, um, [01:05:10] there, there's another great saying, this was actually from a rabbi, uh, who said, [01:05:15] You are not expected to complete your life's work during your lifetime, [01:05:20] neither are you excused from it. Wow. And I thought, wow, that's a really good way to do it.
So look, [01:05:25] we're just going to continue to get the data for as long as we can. We're not going to worry about [01:05:30] it. We're going to continue to look at innovation, which is why I actually emailed you a couple days ago and said, there are [01:05:35] these, you know, holy grail changes coming that we really need to. Push [01:05:40] through.
I will help you. Thank you. This is an incredible time, and I'm not [01:05:45] going to be here to see a lot of it, but I want to be here to get it started, and I want to be here to [01:05:50] draw on the 50 years of neuroscience that I've been doing. There's so [01:05:55] much excitement going on. I wish I were 32, but I'm not. I'm 73, so [01:06:00] I don't have that many more years, but however many I have, I want to continue to do this, [01:06:05] and I feel much more positive about it than I did 10 years ago.
Well, look, we're [01:06:10] seeing people get better like never before in history. We're seeing, as I mentioned earlier [01:06:15] Diseases that have been considered completely untreatable. We're seeing people get [01:06:20] better. This is, this makes my day, you know, when I, when I hear these [01:06:25] positive outcomes, and we've had now over 10, 000 people go through the program.
Now, not [01:06:30] everyone's gotten better. And I should hasten to add, When I say optional, I mean for people who [01:06:35] start for prevention or early treatment. I'm not talking about people who are in dementia [01:06:40] phase. Yeah, you can make them last longer and get better, but not all the [01:06:45] way optional. Exactly, so optional means you got to start early.
Optional just like having a [01:06:50] colonoscopy, that sort of thing. Are you open to an observation? Sure.
Dave: Eric Kandel, Nobel [01:06:55] Prize winner for discovering neuroplasticity, you're probably friends with him, wouldn't surprise me came on the show when he [01:07:00] was 94.
Wow.
And he's sitting in his lab in New York [01:07:05] City, Overlook in Central Park, Absolutely fired up about the research he's doing [01:07:10] and he's 21 years older than you and he's not stopping anytime soon.
Dale: He's an amazing [01:07:15] guy. Yeah. Um, I, I was on a review session with him. Um, just an amazing guy [01:07:20] and the stuff he's discovered about learning and memory mechanisms, absolutely fascinating.
Dave: [01:07:25] Well, if he can do it at 94, you are kicking ass for a 73 year old. Your [01:07:30] face, your skin, your hair, your cognition, the brightness of your eyes, the way you move, [01:07:35] You have at least another 20 years of focused, active [01:07:40] things, but you've accumulated 50 years of wisdom and you'll have 70 years and your mitochondria [01:07:45] are still youthful.
That's the hope. So, I, like, don't, [01:07:50] don't be the elephant with the little fence there. I think you might have more time than you think and [01:07:55] everything is speeding up because of AI and all the other things. So you might see the [01:08:00] results of your work in the world. Sooner and [01:08:05] bigger than you think when you're still here.
Dale: Here's hoping. I
Dave: wish that for you. [01:08:10] Thank
Dale: you. Thank you, Dave. I really appreciate that. I know I've definitely hurt, you know, my [01:08:15] lipids, uh, you know, my hemoglobin A1c, things like that, because of, you know, a [01:08:20] lifetime of not knowing this. There are definitely improvements to be made, and, you know, I'm working [01:08:25] on them now.
Dave: Well, do all the advanced longevity things that support your brain, [01:08:30] and I think, I think there's great hope for people who have done the basics [01:08:35] already and are willing to just keep doing the work, and you clearly are. So [01:08:40] it's, it's remarkable.[01:08:45]
We talked about AFib or atrial fibrillation. Yeah. So there's, uh, some [01:08:50] interesting research about high melatonin levels. Now, melatonin is in all [01:08:55] of your cells, your mitochondria. Do they make it or do they just make the energy and then use it? No, that's glutathione. [01:09:00] Yeah, they do make melatonin directly, right?
Mitochondria make melatonin? I was not aware of that. Okay, I [01:09:05] could be wrong. I'm pretty sure they do, but it's present in all the cells in your body. Yeah, yeah, you're [01:09:10] secreting it, yeah. I just don't remember where it's manufactured. So and [01:09:15] for sleep, we know that, but it, it's an electrically important thing throughout the entire body.
[01:09:20] Sure. So, some of the anti inflammatory stuff involves, you know, 50 [01:09:25] milligrams, which is way more. You make 0. 3 milligrams, 0. 9 in the body. [01:09:30] So I was ramping myself up just to try this. I try all this stuff. And I started [01:09:35] waking up with gaps in my aura ring and your aura ring when it's measure heart rate if you have a [01:09:40] fib there's gaps and then I woke up one day really feeling that [01:09:45] anxiety stress thing and it helps that I lived with an emergency room doctor who was mother of [01:09:50] my children at the time and I also have a Yeah.
little mobile device [01:09:55] that measures your EKG called, uh, Cardia. So I measured it. Oh, [01:10:00] look, I do have AFib. So she's, my wife's like, hey, let's, uh, you should, you should drive to the [01:10:05] hospital. Uh, and, and I'm like, you're going to come with me? And she's like, no, I, I'm busy. [01:10:10] ER doctors are like that. So, uh, I went to the hospital and a [01:10:15] really horrible feeling of doom is what I would describe from that.
And. [01:10:20] It passed within a little while, and I did some research, and it turns out very large doses of [01:10:25] melatonin. Can cause that they don't always but there's a substantial number of case reports of that So [01:10:30] for anyone listening if you're doing melatonin suppositories and your aura ring is turning off at night and weird stuffs happening [01:10:35] Maybe back off on the melatonin a bit.
That's why I
Dale: talk Yeah, great point and this gets back to something [01:10:40] you and I started to talk about earlier Which is performance and protection and actually I wrote a book about this [01:10:45] called the ageless brain And the point of this is was that after that was after the end [01:10:50] of Alzheimer's, right? Yeah.
Yeah this year Yeah. Okay, cool. Um, and the, but the whole point [01:10:55] of this is, uh, as we were talking about earlier, the intimate relationship between performance and [01:11:00] longevity that, you know, if you, the things that improve your Alzheimer's also improve your [01:11:05] cognition. And so the, the bottom line is everybody's pushing [01:11:10] performance, but sometimes they're doing it at the expense of protection.
Cocaine is a great example. [01:11:15] You can get, look, you can get better performance and take some cocaine, but the protection is [01:11:20] not there. On the other hand, when you're optimizing your lipid status and when you're optimizing [01:11:25] your ketone levels and all these things, you're getting both. You're getting performance and protection, [01:11:30] and that is a critical piece to understand for longevity and for brain [01:11:35] span.
Dave: My friend, Mike Hoban, who's been on the show a long time ago, who's at the [01:11:40] very first biohacking conference as a sports trainer. He said, you know, Dave, this is [01:11:45] very early days of biohacking, because I've figured out that, you know, everyone goes [01:11:50] until they hit the wall, right? With biohacking, you can move the wall out really [01:11:55] far, but that just means if you hit the wall, you're going to be going really fast.
Yeah.
[01:12:00] And so that's one of those things where. Recovery is more important than [01:12:05] adding stress. And even some of the, the older thinking longevity doctors, like, [01:12:10] If you just exercise 20 hours a week, you can have a health span and still die at [01:12:15] 87. Like, that's not how it works. It's enough exercise stimulation, or [01:12:20] cognitive stimulation, or even, You know, oxidative stress stimulation followed by [01:12:25] recovery, and if we can stimulate harder, we can also recover harder.
And that's why I'm opening a [01:12:30] network of places around the country that allow you to recover faster. Upgrade Labs, 80 percent of our tech [01:12:35] is not put on muscle or VO2 max. We'll stimulate it, but then we put the body in a state of recovery [01:12:40] so you can improve more quickly. Interesting. Like the ratio of stimulation to [01:12:45] recovery to cause adaptation, It's not what people think.
It's not all effort and a little recovery. It's [01:12:50] mostly recovery and the right effort. Yes. What's the right effort to stimulate a [01:12:55] brain to regrow or to become stronger and
Dale: healthier? That's a great [01:13:00] point. And you know, this gets into hormesis. So what you're trying to do is you have to [01:13:05] remember system is meant to function in a certain way.
You don't want to have, for [01:13:10] example, square, square waves. And this is not the way biology works. So what you want to [01:13:15] do is you take it to the limit that it currently has. Don't give yourself a heart attack. And then you [01:13:20] go slightly beyond that. And that's why HIT has been so helpful. HIT is the, the [01:13:25] exercise most associated with reduction in risk for Alzheimer's disease.
Yes. [01:13:30] Is HIT. Because you're going beyond, but then you're giving. plenty of time for [01:13:35] recovery. And you're absolutely right. That has been an issue. So [01:13:40] getting those neural stem cells supported, getting them pushed, what happens is [01:13:45] people tend to push too hard. Now you're actually getting some damage that now you've [01:13:50] got a more and you've got inflammation now.
So you're hurting yourself. So you're absolutely right. So [01:13:55] one of the things that comes up a lot when people do brain training and we typically [01:14:00] like to use a brain HQ be simply because there's more data behind brain HQ [01:14:05] again, it's about the data.
Dave: Yeah.
Dale: Um, that actually works very well. Some people like others.
That's [01:14:10] fine. Sure. But when you do that, don't take it to the point that you're [01:14:15] totally stressed out because then you're hurting your brain. So we had a number of people when I was a [01:14:20] professor at UCLA that would come in for their Yeah. They were supposed to be followed longevity, uh, [01:14:25] uh, longitudinally and they would say, no, I'm, I'm stopping the study because you guys are [01:14:30] stressing me out too much because they would have four to six hours of neuropsych testing.
You [01:14:35] don't need to do that much. That cooks you. Exactly. So the key is to get a small amount [01:14:40] of stress and then to allow, just as you said, the recovery.
Dave: It's funny when it comes to [01:14:45] brain training. I have 40 years of Zen has been running for 10 years, which is a [01:14:50] really intense, uh, neurofeedback personal development experience.
My most recent book, [01:14:55] I published after 10 years of, of data on this, you know, what, what's [01:15:00] really working for permanently turning off sympathetic trauma responses for people. [01:15:05]
Yeah.
And yeah. In order to do that for five days, where they're doing not just [01:15:10] testing, but they're doing feedback sessions, equivalent to heavy meditation, I have to [01:15:15] change their supplements, I have to change their diet, change their sleep, and they only do it for five days, followed by a [01:15:20] lot of recovery.
But if I don't feed them the right stuff, which includes ketones, [01:15:25] Then they can only do about a third of the training. So when we [01:15:30] optimize the energy input status, they can do decades of meditation in [01:15:35] five days. But if I don't feed them right, I don't support the mitochondria, they can't do it. And we, of [01:15:40] course, use recovery technologies and all this stuff.
And the results of that [01:15:45] work after ten years, um, are a, uh, Just a [01:15:50] theory of mitochondrial connections to our ego and it became the [01:15:55] number one best selling Philosophy and the number one best selling meditation book in the country for a little [01:16:00] while with Buddhist scholars saying oh my gosh This actually this is why the [01:16:05] science behind what we see and I'm blown away because it was mitochondria But I never [01:16:10] would have known this if I wasn't pushing my own brain beyond what it should do.
Yeah,
and [01:16:15] what would you suggest? for Say, young people during [01:16:20] finals, or maybe someone in their 40s or 50s who's flying around the planet [01:16:25] with circadian stress and getting on a stage. What do we do to protect our brain in those situations? [01:16:30]
Dale: Yeah, this is such a good point, because many of us, you know, most of the time, and you know, we [01:16:35] can, when I was an intern and resident in medicine and then neurology you know, you're [01:16:40] doing horrible things to your brain, staying up all night repeatedly, um, and that is [01:16:45] just not good for your brain.
So, again, It's small challenges, [01:16:50] so, you know, get on there, see if you can remember longer lists, see if you can do, uh, [01:16:55] you know, Sudoku, whatever, there's lots of things to do. We pick up a new instrument, pick up a new [01:17:00] language, challenge yourself, but when you get to the point that you're feeling, oh, this is [01:17:05] stressful, you can even check your cortisol if you want, check your HRV.
Um, that's one thing that [01:17:10] I find very helpful, and you can see, as you know, you see huge differences just between, [01:17:15] uh, you know, before and after, uh, a minute of some square away, square [01:17:20] breathing basics, you can see improvements. So I would say, number [01:17:25] one, try not to try not to push it to the point of damage.[01:17:30]
Now when you're young, it's easy to do that and you're not realizing that that is [01:17:35] impacting you in the long run. At the same time, don't under push it. So, in [01:17:40] other words, you want to have some. Stress to allow you to adapt to that. [01:17:45] That's the way things work. Obviously, that's what working out. Your muscles is all right.
Um, but [01:17:50] then also, you have to remember if you're going to be a weightlifter, for example, [01:17:55] you can't do that and be malnourished.
Dave: It doesn't make
Dale: sense. And so [01:18:00] this is what's happening in the brains with a lot of people. They say, well, look, I'm going to do a lot of [01:18:05] brain training. Well, but wait a minute.
Your BDNF is low. Your NGF is low. [01:18:10] Your testosterone is low. Your cortisol is high, so, you know, your HSCRP [01:18:15] is high, you're a mess. You shouldn't be trying to push that brain. [01:18:20] So, the idea is to get that supply optimized and then tweak it, get that [01:18:25] hormesis going in there. And then, you know, people, there are all sorts of things, as you know, [01:18:30] photobiomodulation, microcurrent.
There are all sorts of things you can do to enhance that. It
Dave: [01:18:35] reminds me of so many people, you know, I'm, I've got 40 extra pounds. [01:18:40] I'm metabolically resistant. I think I'll run a marathon. Yes. Yeah. Like [01:18:45] just make yourself old all at once. Why don't you? Yeah. Right. The other thing is even with HIIT, which [01:18:50] I've been recommending since my very first post, like this is superior to just going for a run.[01:18:55]
Yeah.
Lately. Especially with the advent of AI, [01:19:00] um, at Upgrade Labs, we use a, an AI bike with an algorithm that's [01:19:05] personalized for each person called ReHit. And three studies now support the idea that [01:19:10] reduced exertion hit, we're talking 20 seconds of effort twice over five minutes. And [01:19:15] that's it. It outperforms HIT for VO2max.
Really? To the point that [01:19:20] 15 minutes a week of ReHit training. And that's 15 minutes, including the [01:19:25] rest period, so literally 40 minutes, three times a day. We brush our teeth longer than [01:19:30] that.
Yeah.
That will cause a 12 percent VO2 max improvement [01:19:35] in two months, but an hour a day of cardio will only cause a 2 percent improvement.[01:19:40]
Dale: Wow, that is striking. And what does VO2 max do for Alzheimer's? [01:19:45] Yeah, so, so VO2 max is, you know, very important because it does show, [01:19:50] because And again, a big piece of Alzheimer's is energetic [01:19:55] support, because if you don't have the support or if you've got too much drag, either one of those, [01:20:00] you have to reduce your network size.
That's all there is. So you're trying to support a large [01:20:05] network. And to do that, you've got to have, it's just like, if you've got a big company, you've got to have [01:20:10] enough money to, to pay the paychecks. Yeah. And you got to pay the electric bill too. Exactly. Right. And [01:20:15] so no surprise. In fact, so there was a very interesting study.
They just looked at the [01:20:20] mean SpO2 during the night. So how saturated was your [01:20:25] oxygen while you were sleeping on average? That correlates beautifully [01:20:30] with the size of your hippocampus and the size of other key nuclei within [01:20:35] your brain. So you bring that down, you're bringing down those, those nuclei sizes.[01:20:40]
You know, you're bringing down your hippocampus, you bring that up, you're going to give yourself a better chance. So [01:20:45] in fact, having that Optimal is really, really important [01:20:50] for your brain
Dave: for men in particular. One of the biggest [01:20:55] ways of knowing whether your brain is getting enough oxygen at night is the [01:21:00] strength of your morning kickstand.
Interesting. Right? Because if you have enough [01:21:05] nitric oxide, you have enough microcirculation, you're going to wake up like you did when you were 18. [01:21:10] And if you wake up and there's nothing going on, you probably should do something [01:21:15] biologically or in your behavior set. Yeah. To restore microcirculation. And [01:21:20] usually it's around nitric oxide.
I've had a few different episodes, um, the [01:21:25] guys who make arterioscille make a really cool thing called Vasconox. And there's that 101. And [01:21:30] if you track your SbO2 and you dial in your nitric oxide levels, you wake up and your [01:21:35] brain's like, yes, like I had really vivid dreams, your heart rate variability is higher.
And your [01:21:40] morning kickstand is there and women have the equivalent called a morning bean that no [01:21:45] one talks about. I don't know if there's a better name for that, but, uh, so for listeners, if you're just saying, how do I [01:21:50] know if my brain has enough? Well, your fitness tracker might have SpO2. It's not great from [01:21:55] fingers, to be honest, but it's better, better than nothing.
But if you wake up and the blood is where it should be. [01:22:00] You know, your hormones are halfway decent and your blood flow is good.
Dale: Yeah,
Dave: and for me, that's like the [01:22:05] free indicator that you're probably doing something right.
Dale: Yeah,
Dave: that's like good advice.
Dale: [01:22:10] Absolutely. And and so, as you mentioned, nitric oxide is becoming a critical thing that so many people [01:22:15] are thinking about.
And we do see a lot of people in which the The rate limiting [01:22:20] step in their cognitive decline is vascular support. And so, as you [01:22:25] mentioned, arterioscleral HP, one of the things that's very helpful and nitric oxide support, and then [01:22:30] also natokinase. Ah, let's go deep on that. Yes. So, you know, [01:22:35] basically there you are reducing the Fibrin clots, and of course, [01:22:40] especially for people who've had COVID and post COVID, you know, one of the big problems with COVID [01:22:45] is that it creates these micro thrombi throughout your heart, throughout your brain, throughout your other [01:22:50] organs, and it's turned out that COVID was almost made to give you [01:22:55] Don't know if it was made or not, but it might have
Dave: been kind of obvious.
Dale: Yeah, okay. Made to [01:23:00] give you Alzheimer's. It triggers the inflammation. It triggers [01:23:05] the reduction in blood flow. It triggers the long term immune [01:23:10] activation. I mean, it's horrible. And in fact, there have already been publications showing that people [01:23:15] who've had it are at increased risk for a diagnosis of Alzheimer's within the subsequent [01:23:20] year or so.
So, so having these Improvements, things like [01:23:25] natokinase, artericill, nitric oxide can be very, very helpful.
Dave: [01:23:30] I feel fortunate that I was mentored by people much older than me in my 20s. I have [01:23:35] been taking seropeptase a million units, very high dose. every night for [01:23:40] 25 years. And seropeptase is a silkworm enzyme.
Yeah. Uh, it's not made [01:23:45] from silkworms anymore, but it breaks up extra protein, like, uh, scarring and [01:23:50] all in the body, and it breaks up fibrinogen and thrombin, not as [01:23:55] strongly as nanokinase, but it does it, especially those high doses. Yeah. And, The [01:24:00] research is now so good with nanokinase that 4, 000 units a day [01:24:05] will very likely break up all those clots that you would be getting with, if you had [01:24:10] COVID, and emerging research around it removing soft [01:24:15] plaque, which is a dangerous plaque, as long as you get a big enough dose on an empty stomach.
Yeah.
I [01:24:20] did, uh, a CLEARLY scan, which is one of the, probably the only way to really [01:24:25] visualize soft plaque throughout the body, right? And what we found is after 15 [01:24:30] years of eating very large amounts of butter and, uh, and [01:24:35] steak, grass fed steak, so most of my fat is saturated and monounsaturated with [01:24:40] low doses of omega 6s and that's by design.
And I'm not saying [01:24:45] everyone should do that. We know olive oil is good for you. I don't think only olive oil is good for you. I had [01:24:50] no plaque accumulation except two spots in my [01:24:55] heart had a small amount and when I worked with a physician on that, she said, Oh yeah, [01:25:00] you had COVID twice. That's where the spike protein caused damage and that's a healing [01:25:05] response.
But the important thing is I didn't have systemic plaque after that and I'm probably on the [01:25:10] extreme of consumption of saturated fats.
Dale: Interesting.
Dave: And I, I do it because, [01:25:15] well, there's some pathways and some membrane things, and because I've experimented on my own biology and many different [01:25:20] things, and that pattern works really well for me.
And I take my official and I take all the fatty 50, I take all the stuff, right?
[01:25:25] Yeah.
And I just want people listening to understand natokinase, or maybe [01:25:30] seropeptides, but certainly natokinase at higher doses, because it's thinning the blood but not increasing your risk of [01:25:35] bleeding out, thinner blood can get into smaller capillaries and your brain needs [01:25:40] it.
So is this one of those things that. You would predict, I mean I have [01:25:45] studies, would reduce the likelihood of Alzheimer's. Yes, I would.
Dale: We want to be as [01:25:50] physiologically relevant as possible. That gives you the best long term outcome. So it's [01:25:55] eating the right food and doing the right exercise and getting the right sleep and all that.
But when we are in a [01:26:00] situation where Many people are on one side of the curve, then things that to bring [01:26:05] them back to where the optimal is, um, can be very helpful. Um, and there was a wonderful [01:26:10] study out of Korea a few years ago, where they showed that 10, 000 units a day [01:26:15] did not increase risk of bleeding, and actually they could show beautifully [01:26:20] disappearance of the plaque.
Dave: Yeah, it really does go away. Yeah. And it's cheap, and you don't [01:26:25] need a prescription. Yeah. So, you can just order natokinase, and it's great. [01:26:30] If I had diffused plaque throughout my body in those two small spots or nowhere near blocking, they will [01:26:35] go away over time with natokinase as my vessels heal. But I [01:26:40] would probably out of an abundance of caution and liking multiple pathways, I would mix [01:26:45] serapeptase, natokinase, and lumbrokinase.
And [01:26:50] what do you think about that for people into into long term longevity and just having better, [01:26:55] better vascular? Is there a reason to only use natto versus just take all three enzymes that clean up the [01:27:00] system? I
Dale: don't know of any reason to just do one as opposed to three. [01:27:05] Um, I would, you want to make sure again, this is where knowing your genetics and you mentioned Intellix [01:27:10] DNA and Sharon Hausman Cohen, that you've talked with her.
Knowing what your status [01:27:15] is, um, where do you stand with respect to thrombosis, um, you know, what is your [01:27:20] factor five lighted and all the other clotting factors. One of the people in the, in our [01:27:25] first trial, we published a few years ago, uh, which, We showed clear reversal of [01:27:30] cognitive decline. This was a guy that interestingly wasn't responding at the beginning, and [01:27:35] turned out that he would get on planes and get off in Europe and be confused.[01:27:40]
And it turned out this guy had multiple, uh, genes for [01:27:45] increased thrombosis, and he responded beautifully to this triad that I just mentioned.
Dave: [01:27:50] Interesting. I will find out from Sharon because I haven't had my full review of my IntelliX DNA results.
[01:27:55] Yeah.
But. I do know that I've had low blood pressure for most of my life, [01:28:00] which, okay, I'm not going to blow my kidneys out, which is good.
Actually, my kidney, I only have one, [01:28:05] but born that way. So, low blood pressure, that was a risk factor for [01:28:10] Alzheimer's. In fact, it's a big one, right? Hypertension is the bigger risk for
Dale: Alzheimer's. It needs to be in the [01:28:15] middle. Yeah, so again, the key is you want to supply what is needed. So [01:28:20] again, finding out when you're high or low, finding out why.
When we [01:28:25] see people who have a new, increasing autonomic dysfunction [01:28:30] that typically is a tip off that they have some degree of MSA, multi [01:28:35] system atrophy. That's another synucleinopathy. So we now think in terms of what [01:28:40] was your prion response? Was it A beta? Tau? 43? Was it [01:28:45] alpha synuclein? There aren't that many.
That will tell you what are the things that [01:28:50] were likely to be the insults. But it sounds like this has been your whole life. Yeah. Yeah, in [01:28:55] general, that's usually helping you unless you are passing out.
Dave: Mm hmm. But I have [01:29:00] passed out many times. Okay Well, that's too low. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a form of POTS.
[01:29:05] And so you're treating the POTS. Oh, yeah, absolutely and it's It was life [01:29:10] changing because brain fog goes away when you have enough blood pressure. In my case, it's not autonomic [01:29:15] regulation. The unlimited life uh, high end longevity program I'm doing with a medical doctor [01:29:20] and another personal development leader, we were meeting in Toronto yesterday, actually, [01:29:25] and we just measured my autonomic function.
I'm using one of the electrical screening [01:29:30] things and it was 79 percent and all the other four things I was near 99 percent [01:29:35] so things are good, but my body doesn't make cortisol. My liver doesn't know how to do it [01:29:40] because of the 17 progesterone dehydroxies or something.
Dale: Okay.
Dave: And [01:29:45] so I just take cortisol the way most people take thyroid hormone.
So that's essentially [01:29:50] genetic Addison's. Yeah. Exactly. And, uh, so I have had [01:29:55] so many weird health problems that I'm the least likely [01:30:00] person to live to 180. And I've managed the crap out of this stuff. So my markers are so [01:30:05] good. We looked at my pulse wave velocity, which is another marker of arterial strength.
I'm 31 years old on that [01:30:10] scale. Wow. And, like, this stuff works, but for 25 years, I've taken the [01:30:15] enzymes that keep my blood from doing bad stuff.
Dale: Yeah.
Dave: And it feels like we're right on the [01:30:20] cusp with AI of being able to take all of your knowledge, those [01:30:25] 250 papers, and plug it into oh, Dale, [01:30:30] D A I L E, and Predison, [01:30:35] and to say, all right, based on all this stuff, what are the Top three [01:30:40] things that I could do right now at this age with these labs and to really be good [01:30:45] at that and I'm building that system based on my work in many of the episodes of the show as a part of the [01:30:50] upgrade labs thing, but fantastic.
Are you? Are you feeling like your protocol, which has now been tested [01:30:55] rigorously and 10, 000 people can be turned into an AI?
Dale: Absolutely. And let me [01:31:00] mention one thing, which is really critical. We have six sites where we're doing this. And we found [01:31:05] that four of them are getting, so now we look at each site separately, four of them are getting [01:31:10] spectacular results.
Pretty much everybody's getting better. With more sun. With, with, so, so four of [01:31:15] the, no, four of the sites that are just are doing it better. Okay. Getting better outcomes with, with their, [01:31:20] with their cognitive trackers. The other two sites are not. And so, and interestingly, we found [01:31:25] one of the sites, it turned out that a person who was not [01:31:30] trained, didn't have formal training in this protocol, was trying to do it and [01:31:35] just clearly didn't know what they were doing.
Dave: Okay.
Dale: Yeah, so that was kind of, we were not [01:31:40] made aware of that at the beginning, unfortunately, but the point is that It does. There is a [01:31:45] big difference is, you know, Dave doing it right and then following up. And I [01:31:50] think this is where I is going to be huge because we really understand the fundamental [01:31:55] nature of these neurodegenerative conditions like never before.
So now we [01:32:00] can plug this in and say, okay, What went wrong in each of these sub [01:32:05] networks, and what are the things, here are 10, 000 people, some of them got better, some of them [01:32:10] didn't. Let's take these and let's find out what, what is driving this. It's not going to [01:32:15] be simple, likely. There are, there are going to be things to pick up, but this is [01:32:20] exactly where AI is going to be so sensitive.
It's going to pick up things that others will [01:32:25] not.
Dave: Right now, uh, at UpgradeLabs, we get 187 million [01:32:30] data points per year per member who comes in the normal amount of time. Wow. Including, [01:32:35] you know, the power levels in different parts of the brain, including, uh, hemoglobin [01:32:40] binding and strength network, and just unimaginable amounts of data.
And I have no [01:32:45] idea. Uh, what all things we're going to learn, but my whole goal is I would like people to spend less [01:32:50] time improving themselves and get better results. And another data point, what I wanted to [01:32:55] ask you about you mentioned oral health and the implications with Alzheimer's and with [01:33:00] cardiac stuff.
I mean, you didn't mention that, but it's a risk factor. Huge. I've been working [01:33:05] with Viome for, uh, eight or so years. I mean, Jane's a friend. He's a board [01:33:10] member at Upgrade Labs. And he announced at my biohacking conference [01:33:15] that they are, uh, at the very last stages of getting approval. for [01:33:20] Viome to predict stage 1 pancreatic cancer.
Wow.
And they already [01:33:25] can do oral and throat cancer. This is from mitochondria from blood [01:33:30] and oral bacteria and poop bacteria, like into the system and exit from the system. That [01:33:35] is so predictive. Wow. And I'm wondering if you've ever talked to them, because I think with [01:33:40] the amount, they have a million People's data of like what's going on all these different networks.
Yeah. [01:33:45] I'm wondering if you've ever talked to them about doing an Alzheimer's prediction model based on that. [01:33:50]
Dale: You know, it's been years. So, I talked to him many years ago. But, you know, things happen. [01:33:55] They're doing their stuff. We're doing our stuff. And so, we kind of lost track. So, it's time to re initiate. [01:34:00] I could re
Dave: introduce you because it's the biggest data set that I know of.
And when you mentioned [01:34:05] oral bacteria, it's I know they can predict your blood sugar response to different foods, predict [01:34:10] diabetes before it happens. I don't think that's clinically, like, that's not [01:34:15] a study that they'll sell, but I know they can do it. So there's all this data stuff, and I feel like [01:34:20] I'm already excited, I have 250 papers, and you [01:34:25] know, you've cracked the code on Alzheimer's, and I don't care, like, what lobbying [01:34:30] group for the existence of Alzheimer's says or not, you've done this and it's abundantly [01:34:35] clear.
And you've done it for 10, 000 people. So we actually know that it's really like, it's predictive, [01:34:40] there's a mechanistic model, it works, and you can repeat it. So this is. [01:34:45] Yeah. That's the slow way of doing it. Yeah. Yeah. AI is going [01:34:50] to make it so much faster. So I'm, I'm intrigued. And so I'll make that [01:34:55] reintroduction if it's helpful.
So there's more data that can support your work. [01:35:00] And I think this is some of the most important, because Dale, [01:35:05] I'm a longevity and a consciousness guy, really. Biohacking gets people onto those two paths. [01:35:10] And in the longevity world, in my book, I'm like, okay, what are the four things that are going to kill you?
Number [01:35:15] one is diabetes, aka mitochondrial dysfunction and metabolic resistance, all that, which is a precursor to [01:35:20] cancer, cardiovascular disease, and Alzheimer's. If you can just avoid those four things you're probably going to live a [01:35:25] very long time and be conscious and happy the entire time. Uh, and if you [01:35:30] don't avoid those things you won't live as long and you'll feel like crap for 20 or 30 years before the end [01:35:35] of your life and that's not okay.
Yeah.
Right. So, [01:35:40] your work in Alzheimer's, it stands out, I mean, in an incredible [01:35:45] way, as someone who's tracked these things for a long time, I don't know anyone who's just [01:35:50] so relentlessly pursued it over the course of a decade, to the point that [01:35:55] anyone who looks at this amount of research and says that cannot be, [01:36:00] therefore it isn't.
Dale: Yeah,
Dave: we know who they're working for.
Dale: Yeah. And you know, isn't it interesting [01:36:05] that people have continued to look at what one thing? Oh, a full A protein [01:36:10] misfolded. Yeah. Oh, you have reactive oxygen species, you know, oh, it's [01:36:15] diabetes of the brain, all mm-hmm . It's all of these things. It's, yeah, it's, you have to [01:36:20] understand the model.
Once you kind of get. Ah, this is what this is all about. Now you [01:36:25] can write your program. Now you can say, Oh, these are the things. So we now want to capture [01:36:30] these things. Before, the problem was, you didn't know what to capture. Yeah. So people [01:36:35] would say, Can you make a better antioxidant? That's not good enough.
That's, that's, it's not [01:36:40] just that. Uh, and, or, as you mentioned earlier, insulin in your nose. [01:36:45] It doesn't work that well. There's a trial on it called the CIP. Sniff trial failed,
Dave: but [01:36:50] it doesn't increase cognition for short periods of time. Yes.
Dale: But in terms of actually helping [01:36:55] Alzheimer's, it didn't give you much because it's just part of the story.
There's a, there's a really interesting drug [01:37:00] divinitide that was tried. This is a fragment of [01:37:05] ADNP, which is a very powerful drug. Potent neurotrophic factor, right? It's [01:37:10] it makes a lot of sense. I love that drug, but what did they do? Can I take some well? I [01:37:15] don't know today. You probably could it's been one of the peptides.
Okay, but they tried it as a [01:37:20] monotherapy with nothing else Okay, it's you, it's just like bringing in every car [01:37:25] and saying, we're going to fill up every car with gas. Yeah, some of them, it's going to help with it when they've stopped running, but a lot of [01:37:30] them, it's going to be something else. It's not always the same thing.
So now that we have a better understanding of [01:37:35] this whole process, as you said, we have got a predictive model. Now the AI can really go [01:37:40] crazy.
Dave: One of the untested assumptions behind [01:37:45] a lot of science, even in universities and certainly at big pharma companies. is [01:37:50] the unproven assumption that one variable is the cause of something.
[01:37:55] Yes. And I like to say, if Pfizer was out there doing some research on bread. [01:38:00] Yeah. They would say, well, we baked the yeast, we bake the flour, we bake the salt. [01:38:05] There is no bread. Yeah.
Yeah.
Right. And you're like, well, what makes you think there's only one ingredient in the bread? And it [01:38:10] turns out it's the right set of ingredients over the right period of time, mixed the right [01:38:15] way.
And with the right pauses, and then the right temperature, and then you get crusty sourdough. Yes. [01:38:20] Right? We've got to break that paradigm. Nothing in biology is one variable, other [01:38:25] than maybe physics.
Yeah.
Like, if you go through your windshield, I think we can predict that [01:38:30] one pretty well. But almost, even then, you know, what angle did you hit the windshield at?
Like, like, there's so much. [01:38:35] And so, in my world, I don't even care about [01:38:40] single variables. Yeah. Right? I only care about sets of variables that are going to move a [01:38:45] network. It's like, Herding sheep, like what's the one thing that heard sheep? There [01:38:50] isn't there's all kinds of things.
Yeah,
and and so you and I even though we're pretty [01:38:55] knowledgeable we're not going to see everything but with the amount of data that we can collect [01:39:00] and The real time data and then the lab data and the performance data [01:39:05] I've never been more excited about our ability to change our state.
Yeah. So that, [01:39:10] when you're old, you're like, No, I'm, I'm just wise, but I'm still full of energy, and now I can really do
Dale: something.
Host: [01:39:15] Yeah.
Dale: And it'll allow you to collect much more data for sure. So, last week, uh, uh, first, I've [01:39:20] seen thousands of patients with cognitive change now. And, but, I've never [01:39:25] seen one. who had only one contributor.
There's always some metabolic [01:39:30] dysfunction, some toxicity, you know, there's some inflammation, there's some gut problems, [01:39:35] there's all this stuff. I finally saw last week, very interesting guy, really smart guy, [01:39:40] who has Beautiful MRI, classic MCI, there's no question, he's [01:39:45] got abnormal electrophysiology, something is wrong, but you go after test, after test, [01:39:50] after test, and I was like, this guy must be following Dave Asprey, he looks pretty good, you know, all these things, [01:39:55] and then guess what, finally his mycotoxin study, and they are all Off the [01:40:00] charts, so he may be the first person I've ever seen who just has [01:40:05] one thing that is really driving his cognitive.
We'll see. Yeah, we're still waiting for the rest of his [01:40:10] test, but he's had a lot of it done and he's he's in great shape in many, many
Dave: ways. [01:40:15] I've come across a few people that way where we can say it's a primary cause. And even then, Which of [01:40:20] the 200 different mycotoxins is it? And which part of the brain is it?
And then do we have to clear it? [01:40:25] Or can we just upregulate the mitochondria? And like, like all of it, there's a variable to fix it [01:40:30] even. So I, I really think there's an [01:40:35] implication to what you're saying that, that is so important, especially for listeners of this show. [01:40:40] If a lack of performance or an accelerated aging or your [01:40:45] brain going the wrong way, If it's caused by lots of things, [01:40:50] you don't have to fix them all.
Yes. Right? This is the gift. Yes. Right? [01:40:55] It means you need to fix enough of them to move the network in the right direction. So perfection is not [01:41:00] required. Because I see so many people, they're like, Okay, I'm tired because my mitochondria are cooked. Or I [01:41:05] have brain fog, I can't remember anything because I got mold toxins or Alzheimer's or dementia, whatever.
It's too much [01:41:10] and then we just go away. Pick three. Fix those and then you get 20 [01:41:15] percent energy back and then you pick another fourth and fifth so don't You [01:41:20] don't have to do everything to fix a multivariate problem. You just have to do enough Exactly. [01:41:25] Yeah, so this can create like a sense of peace and relaxation and just I can do this.
Dale: Yeah,
Dave: so [01:41:30] Which sometimes is
Dale: lacking and you are changing the network function and everybody knows you [01:41:35] don't go in to fix a network and take a hammer and smash one thing it doesn't work that [01:41:40] way you're tweaking this you're tweaking that you're you're improving all these things and then the [01:41:45] network starts to function much better.
Dave: It's a fascinating time to be a [01:41:50] brain person. It is. And I, I am so appreciative of your work in the [01:41:55] field. All the tens of thousands of Alzheimer's researchers out there, as far as I've been [01:42:00] able to see, and I'm pretty active in the field, I don't know anyone that [01:42:05] has reversed the number of people that you have.
Is
Dale: that accurate? We were the first to do it. [01:42:10] And we were the first, by the way, to publish over 10 years of sustained improvement that is [01:42:15] freely available online as well. That was another big issue. If you reverse it for nine months and [01:42:20] then it goes the other way, that's not good. We've had people now over, basically the [01:42:25] first ones that I tried, I mentioned earlier before we started Judy, [01:42:30] um, you can see her on judywalks.
org. Love it. The very first patient I [01:42:35] treated. April of 2012, she is still doing well. She [01:42:40] reversed her cognitive decline. She's now 81, and she is walking [01:42:45] from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean, and she just passed the halfway [01:42:50] point, and she was in Austin yesterday, met with the mayor, [01:42:55] and it is Dr.
Judy Benjamin Day in Austin yesterday. [01:43:00] Wow.
Dave: Very cool. You know, if I was not in Toronto for unlimited life, [01:43:05] I would have met with her as well. And this was your first patient? Very first one. And [01:43:10] now, and how bad was her Alzheimer's at the beginning?
Dale: She was in the kind of mid [01:43:15] MCI stage, scared to death. And of course, we had just been turned down to do our [01:43:20] first trial because it was too complicated.
You just have to do one thing. And we were saying, [01:43:25] but that's not the way the disease works. Look at the biology of this disease. And so, [01:43:30] um, she had been a CIA agent and was sent to me, uh, because [01:43:35] her doctor had told her that she would have the same thing. Her mother, her mother had passed away and it was, [01:43:40] it was, as you know, it's horrible.
You're in a nursing home and you can't remember your family. It's [01:43:45] horrible. And she had watched this. And so she said, I'm not going the way my mother did. I, I'm, [01:43:50] so she was saving pills to commit suicide, and she was on the East Coast. Her doctor had already [01:43:55] told her, forget it and at that time, she was having problems with things like she would get [01:44:00] lost driving, stuff like that.
So it was, she wasn't dementia phase, but she was the third [01:44:05] of four. And so a friend called me up and said, would you see this person? I said, [01:44:10] look, we're, we're dealing with transgenic mice and cells. We do basic research. I don't see [01:44:15] patients. anymore. Um, but look, as a favor, I'm happy to talk to her. [01:44:20] So we spent two and a half hours going through, I said, look, this is where she's like taking notes because she couldn't [01:44:25] remember anything.
I said, take this back to your doctor on the East Coast, you know, and just see, [01:44:30] I frankly thought I would never hear from her again, but because she was diligent, she [01:44:35] had attention to detail. She actually did these things. She went back three months later. [01:44:40] She called me at my home on a Saturday morning and said, I can't believe it.
You know, my, my memory is [01:44:45] better than it's been in 20 years. I'm doing great. I'm back at work full time. Everything's great. And she [01:44:50] has stayed, uh, now, you know, 13 years and doing great. So it's just, it's, it's [01:44:55] so great to see people who improve. And at the same time, it really [01:45:00] kills me when someone doesn't.
Dave: Well, I'm going to do something [01:45:05] now. New York Times has covered my work lots of times, usually positively, I've been a New York Times [01:45:10] bestseller, but guys, the New York Times. Um, even if you never write about [01:45:15] me again because I do this, that's okay, could you just double check [01:45:20] the piece you just did on Dale's work?
Because if you listen to this episode, and you look [01:45:25] at his research what you did was a mistake and it wasn't fair. So. [01:45:30] I'm asking listeners now, in the comments, just tag [01:45:35] at NYTimes so that They can pay attention to it, [01:45:40] and this isn't saying the New York Times is bad, it's a great newspaper. [01:45:45] What I'm saying is you guys made a mistake, and I understand you have financial incentives [01:45:50] to talk about some things versus others.
This is a time where for the greater [01:45:55] good, and for truthfulness in journalism, even though we have corporate parents, we all [01:46:00] do Do another piece on Dale. Like, let's get this right. So guys, tag the New York Times. [01:46:05] Tell them to make it right. And Dale, got your back. I am so [01:46:10] appreciative of your work and the 10, 000 people who don't have Alzheimer's or have much less of it [01:46:15] because of you are just the very beginning.
There will be hundreds of millions because of your work.
Dale: I hope so. [01:46:20] Yeah. Thanks so much, Dave. I really appreciate the invitation. Always enjoy talking to you. These are great [01:46:25] times of great progress.
Dave: If you liked today's episode, you know what to do. You [01:46:30] should leave a review or pick up some danger coffee or maybe just don't get Alzheimer's.[01:46:35]
See you next time on the Human Upgrade [01:46:40] Podcast.