Speaker: [00:00:00] The only reason biohacking exists is because I was really sick [00:00:05] with a chronic illness and no one could help in my early 20s. I hit 300 pounds, I had [00:00:10] arthritis in both knees since I was 14, and this long list of things wrong [00:00:15] that no doctor could fix. There's something I became aware of about 5 years ago called [00:00:20] MCAS, or Mass Cell Activation Syndrome.
And it is A uniting [00:00:25] element across many of the things that are wrong with people today. That means if [00:00:30] you're a mold person, you have the same thing as the person who had Epstein Barr, who had fibromyalgia or [00:00:35] CFS.
Speaker 2: Dr. Tanya Dempsey is a world renowned physician exposing the hidden epidemics [00:00:40] of Chronic illness and mass cell activation syndrome.
She's giving a voice to patients who've been [00:00:45] ignored for years and revealing the root causes that can make or break a life. [00:00:50]
Speaker 3: There was a study that showed that one in 17 percent of the population has [00:00:55] MCAS. I would argue that number is much higher now. So one in five people or more [00:01:00] have this disorder.
Speaker: I can't see shades of gray and my eyes are bugging out or I have a headache or I'm throwing up or [00:01:05] my knees hurt.
Why do the symptoms vary so much with mass cell [00:01:10] You're listening to The Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.[00:01:15]
This is an episode that I've wanted to do for a [00:01:20] while, and it's about, you might think is a complex topic, but it's not [00:01:25] really. And it's really personal for me. It's personal because, and by, [00:01:30] if you don't know my story, stick with me for a second here I was [00:01:35] really sick as a late teen in my early 20s. I hit 300 [00:01:40] pounds, I had arthritis in both knees since I was 14, and this long list.
[00:01:45] Transcripts provided [00:01:50] by Transcription [00:01:55] Outsourcing, LLC. [00:02:00] The only reason biohacking exists is because I [00:02:05] was really sick with a chronic illness and no one could help, and I had to do something about [00:02:10] it, and I gave up on medicine when my doctor told me vitamin C would [00:02:15] kill me. And a few years later, I found the right kind of doctor [00:02:20] who really did help me, but it wasn't just medicine, it was environmental and a whole bunch of things.
So, that's it. [00:02:25] So, what was behind chronic fatigue syndrome and all my weird symptoms? [00:02:30] Why did I have brain fog and just all the pain and, and just feeling like [00:02:35] crap? Well, since that time, I would say [00:02:40] mitochondria, mitochondria, mitochondria, and a couple of New York Times books about mitochondria later, I'm right, [00:02:45] except it's not that simple.
And if it was, it would be pretty easy. There's something I became [00:02:50] aware of about five years ago called MCAS or Mass Cell [00:02:55] Activation Syndrome. And it is a uniting element [00:03:00] across many, many, many of the things that are wrong with people today. [00:03:05] And we're going to go deeper into this. But if you've had Lyme disease or [00:03:10] identify as having had Lyme disease, I'm highly skeptical of that.
Or toxic mold, [00:03:15] or long COVID, or this long list of unexplained things that just don't [00:03:20] make sense. It does start with mitochondria, but there's another layer, and we have one [00:03:25] of the world's top experts in this specific thing called MCAS. [00:03:30] So stay tuned, and you're going to learn how your immune system works.
[00:03:35] Tanya. Yes. Why are people so sick today?
Speaker 3: [00:03:40] Well, listen, it does start from the environment. It does start, we are living in a toxic world the [00:03:45] last 50 years, the last 20 years, right? It's everywhere. It's the pesticides. It's [00:03:50] the glyphosate. It's the plastics. It's you name it, right? And infections and all [00:03:55] that.
And what has happened is our bodies, which are designed to deal with [00:04:00] the environment. We have an immune system that helps us deal with the environment [00:04:05] has really gone awry. It just can't handle the [00:04:10] onslaught like it did. 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago. [00:04:15] Um, and there's a part of the immune system that I'm particularly interested in, and that is the, what we call the innate [00:04:20] immune system, or the primitive immune system, where the mast cells reside.
And these [00:04:25] mast cells are, they're white blood cells, and they're your front line [00:04:30] to protect yourself from the, uh, from the environment. And the environment includes not just what's [00:04:35] outside your body, but also what's inside your body.
Speaker: Hold on a second.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: The [00:04:40] definition of biohacking, change the environment around you and inside of you to have full control [00:04:45] of your state or of your biology, we're aligned.
A hundred percent. Okay, keep going. Yeah, [00:04:50] exactly. You just caught my attention there.
Speaker 3: Exactly. No, that's a, that's a really great observation. So, so [00:04:55] these masks. cells, right, are there to protect you. Okay. They've been, they've been [00:05:00] evolutionarily present probably for millions of years in different organisms.
And the way they [00:05:05] protect us is that they, they sort of explode. I like to, to use this sort [00:05:10] of like, I like, I'm a very visual person. So I like to think about the cell with lots of different [00:05:15] granules inside that are, that are chemicals and they, they [00:05:20] explode and they try to release these chemicals to kill whatever they're [00:05:25] trying to protect us from.
And, and what happens though is that instead of killing the [00:05:30] thing that they're trying to protect us from and, and really evolutionarily, they were probably designed to help us with [00:05:35] infection primarily and parasites would be the top of my list. But now we have [00:05:40] more than just infection and parasites, we have all this other stuff.
And so what happens is they release [00:05:45] these chemicals and the chemicals which are being released in our, in our body and our tissue [00:05:50] gets damaged. Our body starts to get damaged. The chemicals [00:05:55] cause an inflammatory reaction. So what I say is that Mast Cell Activation Syndrome is [00:06:00] primarily an inflammatory syndrome.
That where the mast [00:06:05] cells have gone awry. Rather than doing what they're supposed to do, now they're acting [00:06:10] inappropriately.
Speaker: And this is different than something like allergies, where [00:06:15] those are different parts of your immune system, although some things like hives would be mast cell related, [00:06:20] right?
Speaker 3: Yeah, allergy is a mast cell, um, uh, syndrome or disease [00:06:25] process, but this is different.
This is where allergies like, okay, here's a problem. you know, [00:06:30] pollen and you react to the pollen or cat hair or something. This is where, [00:06:35] in mast cell activation syndrome, the body, the mast cells start to react even [00:06:40] beyond what they even know what they're reacting to.
Speaker: I have lived for the past [00:06:45] 25 years since I started to understand my immune system was not always working the way it [00:06:50] should.
In fact, a lot of my body doesn't. So I've just lived with a boot on the [00:06:55] neck of my immune system so that I can control my inflammation levels. [00:07:00] Consciously and intentionally and controlling inflammation is a part of all biohackers abilities because some [00:07:05] sometimes you overstimulate yourself and you don't want to have the inflammatory response and that can save your [00:07:10] life in situations like, Oh, I had a stroke.
Let's not let the inflammatory response [00:07:15] take out my brain or even a heart attack. So there are many things that could just be athletic, could be [00:07:20] medical if you understand inflammation, but there's different kinds of inflammation and this. Yeah. [00:07:25] Mast cell thing, I look at it maybe because, I don't know, because I'm over testosterone or something.[00:07:30]
They're not cells above, they're landmines. And they're supposed to blow up when a tank is over them, and instead [00:07:35] they blow up when the wind blows. And then they make more wind, and then the one down next to it blows up, so you get these [00:07:40] cascading effects. And we know that histamine, It [00:07:45] is a trigger, but they release hundreds of other inflammatory, they're called cytokines.
A lot of [00:07:50] listeners have come across things like IL 6 during the, yeah. [00:07:55] During the pandemic I wrote an article about how to use herbs to [00:08:00] stop IL 6 because most inflammatory viral things are that and like, even if you don't know what it is, you could at [00:08:05] least make sure you I got a. a special award from the regulatory authorities [00:08:10] for that blog post.
All right, how dare I talk about that? So [00:08:15] now we understand there's these landmines, these mouse cells that are exploding, and it's happening more [00:08:20] often than before, and we believe it's external and internal environment. What do we do about it? [00:08:25]
Speaker 3: So, you know, the number one thing is always to think about what they're actually responding to.
[00:08:30] So, if you're living in a moldy place, you've got to take care of the mold. Otherwise, there's really [00:08:35] almost nothing you can do to calm these mast cells down. They'll just continue to react, right?
Speaker: Oh, so [00:08:40] you're saying mast cell activation syndrome is behind long term? term [00:08:45] inflammation from toxic mold like I had?
Correct. Oh, that would have been helpful to know. [00:08:50] Okay, that's important.
Speaker 3: And you know, some people have heard this term SIRS.
Speaker: Yeah, a very old term.
Speaker 3: [00:08:55] Right, it's an old term, but I don't really think it's SIRS. I think it's MCAS.
Speaker: Can I [00:09:00] high five you right now?
Speaker 3: Let's do it. You guys
Speaker: heard that? This old thing called CIRS or [00:09:05] SIRS.
Which was popularized in the late 90s. It's [00:09:10] not what the guy who invented it thinks it is. Um, it is mast cell activation syndrome. And that [00:09:15] means, if you're a mold person, you have the same thing as the person who had Epstein Barr, who had [00:09:20] fibromyalgia, or CFS, all of these things I've been diagnosed with.
Right? And long COVID, [00:09:25] or, sorry, I'm using the wrong words. COVID vaccine injury is a better description there. So, [00:09:30] um, Wow, now we understand that we can take [00:09:35] these things that old school medicine might think these are very different conditions and [00:09:40] we can look at chronic things like Bartonella, Lyme co infections, which I got one of those from a vampire bat.
[00:09:45] Did you know that? I know. You told me
Speaker 3: that once. Oh, that's
Speaker: right. Yeah. Okay, this is a [00:09:50] new paradigm for, Functional medicine, and for anyone listening, [00:09:55] where nothing works. How would you know that it's mast cells that are your problem instead of just [00:10:00] low thyroid, low testosterone, and zinc deficiency or something?
Speaker 3: Well, all those things are important, [00:10:05] right? And, and, you know, I, I cast a wide net with my patients, right? I want to make sure I'm not missing something [00:10:10] that could be easy, relatively easy to, to solve. But, But there [00:10:15] are some key features of patients with mast cell activation syndrome. They often [00:10:20] have symptoms that span different parts of their body in ways that don't [00:10:25] make sense to the, you know, medical establishment, let's say, right?
Why do you [00:10:30] have knee pain and brain fog and whatever, [00:10:35] right? So, so that doesn't make sense to the doctors, right? So they go to, you know, one specialist and the next [00:10:40] specialist, but no one's looking at that big picture, right? So when I, when I see different symptoms, different parts of the [00:10:45] body that come and go waxing and waning very often, sometimes [00:10:50] sometimes lasting for weeks, months.
years, sometimes shorter intervals. [00:10:55] It raises my suspicion. Um, and because there was a study that showed that one in [00:11:00] 17 percent of the population has MCAS. And I [00:11:05] think that, and that, that was published in 2017. And I would argue since COVID and COVID [00:11:10] vaccinations and all these other things that we're seeing, I would argue that number is much higher now.
So [00:11:15] one in 20 or more, one in five people or more have this disorder. [00:11:20] I think it's sort of not. Not a bad idea for me when a patient comes in to [00:11:25] have that on my radar.
Speaker: Every functional medicine doctor should have [00:11:30] a full understanding of Maslow Activation Syndrome because it makes your job easier. One of the [00:11:35] things I learned when I filmed Moldy Movie, and this is moldymovie.
com, it is [00:11:40] totally free, but it's a professional hundreds of thousands of dollars documentary, [00:11:45] just to say toxic mold illness is real. And my friend Daniel Amon's [00:11:50] in it, and many other experts as well as people who are affected by Mold. And what stands out, [00:11:55] all of them have Mastel syndrome, now that I understand what it is, but they all had radically [00:12:00] different symptoms.
So one person, oh my gosh, it's neurological, it's cognitive, it's [00:12:05] my visuals, if I can't see shades of gray, my eyes are bugging out, or I have a headache, or I'm throwing up, or [00:12:10] my knees hurt. Why do the symptoms vary so much with Mast Cell Syndrome?
Speaker 3: And that's the most [00:12:15] difficult piece of it, and that's where it's really hard for patients to understand, and definitely for their [00:12:20] doctors, right?
And that's because Mast Cells are really, right, they're in all your tissue, [00:12:25] organs, um, and if you have a set of Mast Cells that are more dysfunctional in one part of [00:12:30] the body, but somebody else has Mast Cells that are more dysfunctional in another part of their body, right, [00:12:35] you're gonna have completely different symptoms.
Yeah. And there's something about the [00:12:40] genetics. Of the mast cells themselves that dictates what they're actually producing, [00:12:45] which ma, which mediators or cytokines are they producing? So if the mast cells are making more [00:12:50] histamine, you might have a set of symptoms related to histamine. If the mast cells are making more [00:12:55] heparin.
And we know that heparin, which is a blood thinner, is made in the body by [00:13:00] mast cells. And so when I. I see a woman, for instance, who has dysfunctional [00:13:05] uterine bleeding, excessive bleeding, and I think she has mast cell activation syndrome, [00:13:10] I'm going to be suspicious of heparin because I'm looking at the excessive blood loss.
[00:13:15] So the factors are parts of the body and what the mast cells are [00:13:20] actually producing.
Speaker: This puts so many puzzle pieces together, and I think it will for [00:13:25] lots of people listening. For me, when I was young, I lived in a basement that had [00:13:30] toxic mold in the walls. We didn't know it at the time. This was the 80s or something.
We had no clue.
Speaker 3: I did too, by the way.
Speaker: Okay, so [00:13:35] you know what it's like. And I used to carry a little [00:13:40] bottle of Afrin nasal spray and Kleenex in my pocket [00:13:45] all of the time. The reason I would carry that is because I would get 10 [00:13:50] nosebleeds a day. I had my nose cauterized two times probably for [00:13:55] eighth grade with like electricity in my nose.
It was super traumatic [00:14:00] and it's because of heparin, which is a blood thinner. So I would have a mass cell response in my nose from toxic [00:14:05] mold. And of course then, Oh, boom, gushing nosebleeds. [00:14:10] And it was just a part of life. So the reason that I carried Afrin. [00:14:15] And if you get chronic nosebleeds, A, you should know it's heparin, and B, you should know afrin will shrink [00:14:20] those blood vessels and stop a nosebleed almost instantly.
I remember prom night. [00:14:25] Like, going to the bathroom, bleh, I'm bleeding all over. I'm like, damn it, like, this isn't good in a tuxedo. And people are like, who'd you get in [00:14:30] a fight with? I'm like, it's not that, not that, dude. So, So, this stuff [00:14:35] will sound really familiar to some people and other people will say Dave, you're just weird, but [00:14:40] there's another group of people who have cognitive symptoms, or GI symptoms, or their skin's [00:14:45] always inflamed, and I've seen mast cell activation syndrome ruin [00:14:50] relationships.
And one person has all these symptoms, the other one doesn't have them, or they have [00:14:55] different ones, and they think the other one's crazy. Absolutely. What are we going to do about this? [00:15:00]
Speaker 3: Well, what we're going to do is we're going to continue to do the work that I'm trying to do, which is [00:15:05] publish, research, and continue to find ways to improve.
[00:15:10] And this is what I love about the biohacking community. [00:15:15] Because I think that there are a lot of tools there that are going to help us in [00:15:20] in the mass cell chronic illness world. And hopefully, actually vice versa, right? I think there may be [00:15:25] tools that can help in the biohacking community. But I think we have to continue to push the envelope [00:15:30] here.
We have to continue to search because the answers are there. That's what, that's one part, right? How do we help [00:15:35] the patients themselves? So the other part is how do we help this world? I mean, not just sound. You mean
Speaker: [00:15:40] environmentally?
Speaker 3: Environmentally.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, I'm pretty sure if we can just get rid of nature entirely, [00:15:45] we'll be fine, right?
Speaker 4: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.[00:15:50]
The concern I have is that even if we reduce toxins from Mother [00:15:55] Nature or from man made toxins, it doesn't mean the mast cells are going to stop [00:16:00] being hyperreactive. During COVID, I [00:16:05] published my long COVID protocol, which involved a whole bunch of supplements that are [00:16:10] mostly mast cell active. And I talked about a couple of pharmaceuticals.
And [00:16:15] I'm actually a huge friend of pharmaceuticals. I don't like Big Pharma. I think they're dirt bags [00:16:20] who run those companies, and some of them should be prosecuted. Others are just doing their best. [00:16:25] But, Pepsin and Claritin. They block two of the [00:16:30] three histamine receptors in the body and histamine is a primary mast cell thing.
So I found like 80 percent of people, if they [00:16:35] did a one in the morning, one at night of both of those, for six months, the mast [00:16:40] cells would basically age out and new ones would come back calmer. But during that time, [00:16:45] you're ruining your digestion with the pepsis. You have to take betaine and you have to take enzymes.
It's kind of complex. It [00:16:50] helped me substantially. For me, I get it. Sinuses, eyes. [00:16:55] Some lungs will make me cough sometimes and I used to get tons in my gut. As long as I know what to [00:17:00] eat, I don't get the gut issues anymore, but if I eat the wrong stuff. And it's very well managed. I don't have [00:17:05] arthritis anymore, that's more oxalates.
Oh, wait, do oxalates from food trigger mast cells? Yeah. Oh [00:17:10] my gosh! And histamine from food, does it trigger mast cells?
Speaker 3: Yes, and salicylates [00:17:15]
Speaker: is
Speaker 3: another plant compound. Well, salicylates, you know, [00:17:20] aspirin is part of the salicylate family, Um, but there are foods that [00:17:25] contain higher levels. Often those foods also have histamine.
histamine. Some don't, but there's some overlap. But the [00:17:30] salicylates are, for mast cells, interesting because aspirin could [00:17:35] theoretically be a mast cell stabilizer. It also could be the worst thing for the mast cell and cause [00:17:40] a severe, you know, anaphylactic reaction or other. So salicylates in food could [00:17:45] theoretically do the same thing.
Speaker: It's funny, there are other plant toxins [00:17:50] besides the ones I talk about a lot, like oxalates and lectins, and phenols, which [00:17:55] generally polyphenols are good for you, but phenols can cause reactivity, and osocylates can [00:18:00] cause reactivity, and for me, low dose aspirin works, in fact, for most people who [00:18:05] don't have MCAS, low dose aspirin probably the best.
is good for [00:18:10] longevity and studies. Do you agree with that? I agree. What about the gastric bleeding potential for that?
Speaker 3: [00:18:15] Right. Well, that's, that's the, that's the problem, right? So there are different ways to dose it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 3: Different ways. [00:18:20] Some people take it, you know, a few times a week rather than every day.
Some people will take a [00:18:25] Pepsi.
Speaker: That's what I do. I love this.
Speaker 3: And I, and I think it, I honestly [00:18:30] have saved a lot of lives that way, so.
Speaker: What should people do if they're going to take an [00:18:35] aspirin occasionally to protect their gut?
Speaker 3: Always take Pepsit with [00:18:40] aspirin because it protects the gut, decreases histamine in the gut, and [00:18:45] decreases the risk of bleeding from aspirin.
Speaker: Wow. So you can protect your gut from aspirin bleeding, get the [00:18:50] longevity effects of aspirin, won't it turn off your stomach acid? What do I do about that?
Speaker 3: But you know what? [00:18:55] It really doesn't that, that much compared to, let's say, the, uh, [00:19:00] PPI category, the proton pump inhibitors. I just try to avoid them at all costs.
Those [00:19:05] shut down everything. Issue blockers are are actually pretty short lived. They can't [00:19:10] shut down enough. That's the problem, actually.
Speaker: Wow, so it's okay to take Pepcid [00:19:15] and maybe not take a stomach acid enhancer with it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think most of my [00:19:20] patients are fine. If you wanted to take a little betaine with a meal just in case, sure.[00:19:25]
That might help with absorption of certain nutrients. But the majority of patients, I don't see a [00:19:30] huge difference in
Speaker: their acid
Speaker 3: levels.
Speaker: That is so helpful, thank you. Uh, and that [00:19:35] matches my experience now that I think about it. I've been pretty religious about taking something [00:19:40] called betaine HCL. And I'm mentioning it for listeners.
As you age, your stomach [00:19:45] acid production goes down, and then you don't absorb things. So it's a good idea to take some with meals, especially lots of [00:19:50] protein. And if you don't have enough stomach acid, what are the symptoms you'll notice in your GI tract? [00:19:55]
Speaker 3: If you don't have enough acid, believe it or not, you'll get reflux.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker 3: So a lot of people think reflux [00:20:00] is too much acid, but, but not that often, very often, I should say, [00:20:05] it's because there's, there's not enough stomach acid to break down [00:20:10] proteins and, you know, other, other foods. So, um, so reflux, um, [00:20:15] digestive issues of all kinds if you don't have enough acid.
Speaker: Like room clearing gas, because you have rotting food in your gut, [00:20:20] right?
Yes.
Speaker 3: Constipation, you know, even diarrhea, you know, you could see a lot of, [00:20:25] um, bowel issues. I think the bowels are really like, or the GI tract is really like the [00:20:30] heart of the body in some ways. A lot of disease processes sort of start there.
Speaker: You're like [00:20:35] Johns Hopkins trained and the bowel and heart are not the same thing, Tanya.[00:20:40]
Speaker 5: I know. I tell my professors. My liver. Ah, my liver.
Speaker: [00:20:45] That was a Beavis and Butthead reference, the liver thing. You ever see that episode?
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker: I didn't peg you for that. [00:20:50]
Speaker 4: Sorry.
Speaker: This is kind of a dad joke thing, but I have to share it. So [00:20:55] there's an episode where they decide they're going to do insurance fraud.
And so they, [00:21:00] you know, beat each other up and then one of them stands up and holds his head and goes, my liver, my liver, because he doesn't know [00:21:05] where his liver is. I showed my kids that and they still say my liver to this day. So
Speaker 4: that's funny.
Speaker: But I love it. Like the [00:21:10] bowels, the heart of the body is funny.
Um, From an immune perspective, [00:21:15] we've all heard of leaky gut. If you have mast cell syndrome, which, like I said, maybe a third of people [00:21:20] do, then when things go through the lining of the gut, something happens. What [00:21:25] is going through the lining of the gut that's making our mast cells so pissed off?
Speaker 3: Well, first off, [00:21:30] the mast cells themselves are responsible for the leakiness, right?[00:21:35]
Then they're seeing food particles lipopolysaccharides, [00:21:40] endotoxins and all these other things that are then penetrating into the body, right? And now it's a, it's [00:21:45] like a perfect storm, really, you know, of, of, of dangerous [00:21:50] chemicals that now the body has to take care of, right? And so you wonder why people are sick.[00:21:55]
Speaker: It feels like there's Two kinds of heartburn. There's a kind of heartburn that you [00:22:00] get from what feels like too much stomach acid, but it's not having enough stomach acid. [00:22:05] And that comes on a while after you eat. And there's another kind of [00:22:10] heartburn that happens when you eat something, and pretty quickly, like within [00:22:15] 30 seconds of a bite, suddenly you get this burning, What's the difference between those two, because they're not [00:22:20] caused by the same thing.
Speaker 3: No, the second one, the latter is caused by probably mast [00:22:25] cell activation. Exactly.
Speaker: Nobody knows this.
Speaker 3: Because the [00:22:30] reaction time of a mast cell is so fast. Milliseconds [00:22:35] sometimes. So you can get that reaction quickly. It doesn't even make sense. Like doctors will say, well, how is that even [00:22:40] possible? How can you get a reaction in a second, two seconds, 30 seconds, whatever.
Yeah. [00:22:45] But that's because the mast cells release these chemicals so quickly.
Speaker 5: Those same doctors who say it doesn't make [00:22:50] sense, have they not worked in an ER? Like if you sprain your ankle, it's going to swell up like [00:22:55] really, really, really fast.
Speaker: That's also mast cells, right? That's
Speaker 3: also mast cells.
Speaker: Okay, so we know the body can be really [00:23:00] fast, or you can have a response two days later.
They're different parts of the immune system.
Speaker 3: Well, that's right. And that's what I [00:23:05] think, again, is confusing for a lot of people because some people will eat something, think they're [00:23:10] fine, two days later they're in a flare,
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then they, and then I say to them, well, what did you, you know, [00:23:15] we'll go through the history.
What did you eat? No, no, it can't be because I didn't eat anything today. [00:23:20] Today I was, you know, I ate all my normal stuff, but no, let's go back in time two [00:23:25] days, three days. You know?
Speaker: That is such wisdom. And this is why a cheat day is [00:23:30] the dumbest thing you could ever do.
Speaker 3: I don't recommend it. But when[00:23:35]
Speaker: I was really working on weight loss and [00:23:40] figuring out all this stuff that became Every Friday night, I would go to this [00:23:45] place in the Bay Area, it's probably still open, it's called Max's Opera Cafe. And I would be keto, [00:23:50] I'd eat, you know, no carbs, no anything, I'd be really good all week. And like, Friday night, [00:23:55] I'm just gonna have whatever I want, and I'm gonna have this weird dessert that's got like [00:24:00] cheesecake and chocolate mousse and chocolate cake covered in chocolate, and only on [00:24:05] Friday night.
Right, so I'm like, that's my cheat day, like this was really a common thing, and some people still advocate for a cheat [00:24:10] day where you just eat whatever crap you want. And then the next day on Saturday, I was totally fine. Maybe I'd have a little [00:24:15] gas or whatever, but like, okay, I'm good. But Monday was trash, and it took me two [00:24:20] years of tracking what I ate to realize I had a 48 hour delayed reaction to gluten, [00:24:25] and some shorter term ones as well.
So, it could be up to four days, right? [00:24:30] It could be. And the effects We talked [00:24:35] about earlier, they can be short term, but [00:24:40] one of the old books in my library downstairs is talking about [00:24:45] environmental illness, this has to be from the 70s or something, and this was a psychiatrist who had [00:24:50] people who thought they were Jesus, and he put them on a super clean diet, clean air, clean everything, and then [00:24:55] they're fine, and then he'd expose them to secondhand smoke, and then, boom, they think they're Jesus again for [00:25:00] 10 or 12 days, and then they're in a clean environment, and suddenly, But, These cells calm down.
[00:25:05] So it could be neuro, could be psychiatric, could be GI, could be arthritis, [00:25:10] could be skin. What else could it be? Hormonal. Oh, so how would mast cells affect [00:25:15] testosterone and estrogen?
Speaker 3: So it's actually vice versa. Those hormones [00:25:20] actually bind to mast cells. Mast cells have testosterone receptors, [00:25:25] progesterone receptors.
estrogen receptors, and so fluctuations in [00:25:30] hormones can then affect how these mast cells react. Turns out that [00:25:35] testosterone may be a mast cell stabilizer.
Speaker 5: So maybe that's why everyone [00:25:40] has a mast cell. Maybe it wasn't just COVID. Maybe it's because there's an epidemic of low
Speaker: [00:25:45] testosterone everywhere.
Speaker 3: Could absolutely be a contributing factor.
Speaker: On the flip side. [00:25:50] Tell us what estrogen does to mast cells.
Speaker 3: Wait, so flipside estrogen can be [00:25:55] a activator. Could be a, uh, mast cell destabilizer.
Speaker 5: [00:26:00] Oh, flushing during high estrogen periods of perimenopause could be a mast [00:26:05] cell thing?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I, I believe perimenopause, PMDD, there are a lot of these [00:26:10] conditions, dysfunctional uterine bleeding.
Other things like, um, [00:26:15] painful periods ovarian cysts, polycystic ovarian syndrome, [00:26:20] endometriosis, I could just keep going and going and going. They're all rooted.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: In mast [00:26:25] cell activation syndrome. Now, I will say that a lot of people, you know, there's a [00:26:30] lot of noise on, on Instagram right now, but good noise about, uh, [00:26:35] perimenopause and about, you know, the need for women to be treated with hormones and
Speaker 4: God, yeah.[00:26:40]
Speaker 3: I mean, there's no So important. No question in my mind. But the only thing that I would [00:26:45] add is that for the sensitive patient, the patient who has mast cell activation [00:26:50] syndrome, we just have to be a little more cautious. Now, it turns out that estrogen may not be bad [00:26:55] for mast cells if it's a steady state estrogen, where the problem lies [00:27:00] Right.
is the spikes in perimenopause, where it goes super high and then, and then [00:27:05] crashes.
Speaker: Oh, so soy and flax, which are exceptional high estrogen foods that [00:27:10] also set off mast cells for a lot of people, might be doing it because of estrogen? Might. Did you just [00:27:15] say that women who are having issues with perimenopause might not want to live on soy and flax?
Speaker 3: [00:27:20] Yeah, well, I would, I would say they need to avoid it. Yes. I
Speaker: would say the same thing. So guys [00:27:25] if you still think those are superfoods Stop punching yourself in the mast cells.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you know [00:27:30] how they're made Actually are processed. It will it's appalling. So
Speaker: [00:27:35] the comment about estrogen is interesting because Having no estrogen in men and women [00:27:40] is also maybe not good for us.
Why is that?
Speaker 3: Um, well, well, low estrogen [00:27:45] obviously is, is, affects the bones, affects the heart, affects, you know, so many [00:27:50] other things. Blood vessels,
Speaker: libido, like we need, even men need estrogen, right? That's
Speaker 3: correct. Yeah. And I, [00:27:55] I really am against the sort of, uh, philosophy of blocking estrogen for, [00:28:00] for men who are on testosterone.
I don't think it's a good idea because I think men need that estrogen as well. [00:28:05]
Speaker: Unless they're growing boobs, maybe?
Speaker 3: Well, yeah. Well,
Speaker: I used to have that kind of a problem, but I got over it, so.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, there's [00:28:10] always case by case, right? But the reality is that it's about balance. It's about making sure that [00:28:15] everyone's hormones are in balance.
And that's where really people thrive. Powering
Speaker: [00:28:20] mast cells. Is mitochondria and the mitochondria are stressed [00:28:25] when they're not making energy. Well, they make inflammatory cytokines, [00:28:30] which directly cause mass cells to activate, right?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's one way.
Speaker: It's not the [00:28:35] only way they activate, but you know, they get a signal.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker: So. I'm [00:28:40] still, mitochondria are very foundational, and right above them in my stack of [00:28:45] what's wrong with this person that they can hack would be, uh, mast [00:28:50] cells, because we just figured out almost every intervention that works for [00:28:55] biohacking also has a mast cell effect, and when I've worked on my own long list of [00:29:00] symptoms, or I've worked with, you know, lots and lots of people, um, Helping them [00:29:05] crack their own code.
It's always stuff that affects mouse cells [00:29:10] and things we don't even know. What about thyroid? What's the interaction there?
Speaker 3: So, um, [00:29:15] it's an interesting, actually, interaction. So a lot of people have heard of Hashimoto's. Let's take Hashimoto's [00:29:20] first.
Speaker: Diagnosed at 26? Yep.
Speaker 3: It's presumably an [00:29:25] autoimmune condition.
Speaker: Mm
Speaker 4: hmm.
Speaker 3: I would argue that it's not just [00:29:30] autoimmune. But it is rooted in muscle activation. [00:29:35] And that's because the way I look at it is a lot of people have antibodies. They [00:29:40] have antibodies to the thyroid, they have, let's say, a positive ANA, a positive rheumatoid [00:29:45] factor. There are lots of these antibodies, right?
And then the doctors, you go to a specialist and they want [00:29:50] to diagnose you with an autoimmune condition. And for a lot of patients, the [00:29:55] reason those antibodies are being made is because the mast cell is actually [00:30:00] telling the cells in the body that make antibodies to make antibodies. [00:30:05] inappropriately. So, some people with, with Hashimoto's don't actually [00:30:10] have Hashimoto's, okay?
There's a subset that have antibodies, but the [00:30:15] antibodies are actually like, well, I would call them mimicking antibodies. They're actually not doing anything, but there [00:30:20] are other conditions or other circumstances where the, the [00:30:25] mast cells, the antibodies may not be doing much, but the mast cells are [00:30:30] Causing, let's say, damage to the thyroid, affecting its ability to make the thyroid hormones.[00:30:35]
More importantly, what I see in mass activation syndrome is the [00:30:40] inability, so the thyroid is actually not that bad, but the ability to convert [00:30:45] T4 to T3 is impaired.
Speaker: And that's because of mast cells.
Speaker 3: I think it's [00:30:50] because of the strain on the body.
Speaker: Mitochondrial strain.
Speaker 3: Mitochondrial strain, mast cell activation, [00:30:55] strain on the adrenal glands, really does lead to, so that's the primary thyroid [00:31:00] condition that I see, is this, this poor conversion of T4 to T3.[00:31:05]
When you do thyroid levels, thyroid looks okay, TSH looks okay, you might have some thyroid [00:31:10] antibodies. If you take thyroid hormone, yeah, some of those antibodies might go down, but [00:31:15] you may not be fixing the problem if you're not doing that. Not attending to it correctly.
Speaker: That makes [00:31:20] so much sense. Uh, and when I, I talk with entry level [00:31:25] biohackers, I'm like, guys, look at your inflammation markers, look at your thyroid, look at your [00:31:30] sex hormones, testosterone, and then estrogen, and if you get those right, [00:31:35] many, many problems go away, but not all of them, so those are all, though, somehow linked [00:31:40] to mast cells and to mitochondria.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I look at it, you know, as, You can, you can go [00:31:45] at it from a slightly different angle, right? You can say, look, uh, maybe the mast [00:31:50] cells will calm down, function a little better if the thyroid and the [00:31:55] testosterone and the hormones are all controlled, right? And sometimes that's the path we go in.
[00:32:00] Sometimes we have to go the other direction, and we have to go in from the mast cell piece to calm down the hormones [00:32:05] and, and all the other things, right?
Speaker: I've learned how to navigate my [00:32:10] biology in a, in a different way. And to be really clear, different people have different biologies. [00:32:15] So if you're listening to this, don't do what I do unless it sounds like it might work for you.
If I eat [00:32:20] something that triggers an immediate burning in my esophagus, I know that's mast cells. If I eat [00:32:25] it and my nose starts running, that's mast cells. So, I will microdose [00:32:30] Benadryl. I'll take a little Benadryl and I'll like, just nibble off the edge of it and it makes [00:32:35] your tongue go numb for a minute.
But it'll immediately stop the burning. If I take a [00:32:40] quarter Benadryl, I'm going to get tired because it drugs you out. And maybe people have heard the [00:32:45] latest things, Benadryl, if you take it all the time or take it for sleep, it really increases your [00:32:50] risk of cognitive dysfunction and dementia later in life, because of what it does to [00:32:55] your acetylcholine receptors.
But micro dosing it to stop mast cells, I feel like that's probably an [00:33:00] appropriate use.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, absolutely. But I'd like to argue that study.
Speaker: Oh, [00:33:05] yeah, yeah, let's argue. A
Speaker 3: little bit, okay. The problem with a lot of these studies about [00:33:10] Benadryl is that they're looking at a population that may already have [00:33:15] risk for dementia and cognitive issues.
Speaker 4: Um,
Speaker 3: and that those [00:33:20] patients who are taking Benadryl to sleep, et cetera, probably have dementia. Mast Cell Activation [00:33:25] Syndrome, and I would argue that Mast Cell Activation Syndrome is a risk for cognitive [00:33:30] dysfunction.
Speaker: Wait a minute. Are you saying it's just a correlation, not a causation with Benadryl?
[00:33:35] Correct. That's what I believe. You make so much sense. Anyone with a lifetime [00:33:40] of Mast Cell Activation that is not well managed or just turned off, which can happen, um, has higher [00:33:45] risk of every disease of aging.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker: In fact, I would argue that is my biggest [00:33:50] risk. I was highly obese when I was young.
I was pre diabetic and I have this long list of [00:33:55] things. And I know that that did some damage and I think I can probably [00:34:00] reverse that stuff. But if I continue to immerse myself in things that trigger my mouse cells and I don't [00:34:05] manage them well, chronic inflammation over time, inflammation is a thing, right?
That's a mouse cell [00:34:10] effect in the brain, right? Yes. Yes. So, in fact, I'm going to ask them about mast cells causing [00:34:15] Alzheimer's, but that'll be fun, right?
Speaker 3: Can I be a fly on the wall? [00:34:20] Totally,
Speaker: you can hang out in the studio if you want, you have time. And it's, [00:34:25] it's one of these things where every now and then when you're working on, you know, [00:34:30] managing your biology and you're saying, I want to have my energy or I want muscle or, you know, I want to feel a certain [00:34:35] way.
And it feels like hopeless. You're working on this one problem. And then you realize [00:34:40] that there's something that connects all of the things. And for me, it's [00:34:45] definitely mitochondria, number one. It's mast cells, number two. Because now I can take four [00:34:50] people with totally different symptoms and totally different stories.
Oh, for me, I had Epstein Barr virus. [00:34:55] And another person, oh, I got a Vaccination for COVID against my will and against the [00:35:00] law. And they both have exactly the same thing. Something didn't ever [00:35:05] work again after that. And now instead of being separate populations, they're the same population. Some [00:35:10] environmental insult turned on my mast cells.
Now they're oversensitized and random shit [00:35:15] happens in my biology. Good theory?
Speaker 3: I think you nailed it. Ah, so good. I would, I would [00:35:20] argue though, I would add one thing, not argue, but I'll add. Let's argue. No, let's argue.
Speaker: Come on, you're a doctor. I'm just [00:35:25] a, I'm an unlicensed biohacker. Come on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you're brilliant.
Thank you. But um, what I would say is [00:35:30] that I think a lot of these patients, including you probably had [00:35:35] Nassau Activation Syndrome to some degree, simmering under the surface.
Speaker 4: Oh, I've had it [00:35:40] since I was
Speaker 3: a kid. Various. triggers brought them out over time. It [00:35:45] escalates over time. And I think by the time people got the COVID vaccine, for instance, I've, I've seen [00:35:50] patients who said, you know, I've had triathlons, triathletes, I've had, um, [00:35:55] various, you know, professional athletes come in with long COVID, either from the virus or the [00:36:00] vaccine.
And they say, well, no, I was a high functioning professional athlete. And then I got, you know, [00:36:05] took the vaccine and then I can't function. But if you go back through the [00:36:10] history, They often had symptoms that [00:36:15] they pushed through, or they bio hacked their way through, [00:36:20] so they didn't realize that they had any problems until that straw broke the camel's back.
Speaker: No [00:36:25] one teaches that all these things, oh, I could get weird headaches, or maybe, you know, I have really heavy [00:36:30] flow in my period, or, uh, you know, I have, for me, like, this stupid [00:36:35] joint pain all the time, and it's all related. And [00:36:40] since you think they're separate, you've dealt with each problem separately, and From this [00:36:45] episode now, maybe you can go if you have a lot of that stuff going on There is something underneath it and I'm going [00:36:50] to say it's probably Centered around mitochondria, which are [00:36:55] also centered around max mass cells, which are also centered around hormones [00:37:00] Right, and how do you fix that?
Well, it's Okay, [00:37:05] what, what does it take to herd sheep? What's the one thing? [00:37:10] There isn't one thing. You got to have a lot of things. So this is [00:37:15] where a medical doctor, uh, like you is best suited. [00:37:20] to handle it, but I still want people to know, okay, this might be what's going on with me because that's [00:37:25] a gift.
Just once you know, you can ask Chad GPT, like, hey, how would I get some [00:37:30] guidance? How do people know when to go to you or one of the few [00:37:35] mast cell educated doctors out there versus, oh, this is just something I can handle myself.
Speaker 3: Well, look, I [00:37:40] think there's so much information out there, you know, as long as they're listening to experts like [00:37:45] myself, and they're getting reliable information, there's a lot that they can do to a certain, to [00:37:50] a certain point, you know, they can certainly, um, look at their environment and figure out what changes they [00:37:55] can make in their environment.
They can, they can test for mold, you know, they can do things to, to figure that [00:38:00] out. They can, um, you know, get air purifiers, they can look at their diet and there's, [00:38:05] there's lots of information out there. I've put information out there about different diets. That's right. So there's [00:38:10] so much that patients really, or people have control over for the, on their own [00:38:15] and they should, they should absolutely be doing the stuff to try to figure it out.
It's when they [00:38:20] hit a wall where they've done a lot on their own and they're just, the needle's not [00:38:25] moving. That's when you need someone to figure out what other roots are we missing here. You [00:38:30] know, is it, is it an infection like Lyme or Bartonella or something like that, which [00:38:35] very often chronically causes mast cells to [00:38:40] continue to be activated?
You know, is it that you need a, you need a doctor to order the [00:38:45] test, you need a doctor to potentially treat depending, you know, um, if there are other, there are other, [00:38:50] always other root causes that you have to look at, parasites, um. [00:38:55] triggers like Epstein Barr or COVID or whatever, right? So you need, sometimes you need someone [00:39:00] to help then clean the mess up, right?
Whether that's through pharmaceuticals [00:39:05] or whether that's through some of the, you know, fun toys that I have now in my clinic, which [00:39:10] I love, right? Whether it's, um, plasmapheresis or red [00:39:15] light or ozone or
Speaker 5: you sound a lot like a
Speaker: biohacking doctor. Oh my [00:39:20] gosh.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker: It's kind of cool because those [00:39:25] interventions were generally not accepted in medicine until recently.
They're
Speaker 4: still [00:39:30] not.
Speaker: Yeah, well that's just because there's a bunch of old fashioned doctors.
Speaker 3: So
Speaker: I would say all of the [00:39:35] cutting edge longevity people I work with
Speaker 3: In our world, let's say, yeah.
Speaker: Well, just this is the world of high [00:39:40] performance people who live way longer than everyone else. Since everyone's going to join our world, the doctors who [00:39:45] don't have those, they'll just have, well, I guess they'll only have insurance company based [00:39:50] patients.
And I'm sorry if that triggered you and you're listening if you rely on your insurance company to pay your [00:39:55] doctor, your doctor spends half their time talking to the insurance company. Therefore, you're not getting good care. [00:40:00] Is that a true statement?
Speaker 3: Absolutely true. Do
Speaker: you take insurance?
Speaker 3: Oh, that's why I left that, [00:40:05] that model.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: With killing me and killing my patients.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 3: So. [00:40:10] So.
Speaker: That's why. And there are people who get really mad and say, well, I can't afford a few hundred [00:40:15] dollars an hour for a doctor. And, you know, they argue that it's about fairness. [00:40:20] Well, if what you're doing isn't fair. Kills you and we just had a Johns Hopkins [00:40:25] trained doctor who tells you that and I would absolutely agree with that in fact, it kills you to the point [00:40:30] that We've had some people who are clearly deranged go [00:40:35] after the executive In charge of one of the major health care companies and no, I'm not [00:40:40] advocating that in the slightest Just saying there's deep anger and resentment Towards that model [00:40:45] and hopefully Bobby Kennedy is crushing it right now.
So maybe someday you will be able [00:40:50] to take insurance. But I look at, I look at a physician who says I [00:40:55] will not talk to your insurance company. But I'll give you whatever, whatever [00:41:00] codes you want to try and build your own insurance company. I think that might be the right model. And then [00:41:05] if you're listening to the show, take those, those diagnostic codes, IDC [00:41:10] codes, if your doctor will give them to you, and then put them in a chat GPT and tell it to just be an [00:41:15] absolute asshole to your insurance company because they're using it against you.
You can use it against them. And if you have [00:41:20] any ability to code, um, then write a script that literally automates harassment [00:41:25] of your insurance company.
Speaker 3: It's brilliant. And, and I've, and I've done similar things. [00:41:30] To write letters to insurance companies and I was a slow adapter [00:41:35] of AI, but I do think in this case, it really does work.
Speaker: If anyone wants to [00:41:40] partner with me on a company that has a low cost service for people who have [00:41:45] insurance policies that that uses AI specifically [00:41:50] to fuck with insurance companies and That would bring me great joy, and it would probably bring peace in the [00:41:55] world. So I would do that.
Speaker 3: All right. So hopefully someone listening, right?
Speaker: But you're still not going to talk to the [00:42:00] insurance company, are you?
Speaker 3: Well, we do talk to insurance companies. Oh, wow. Because [00:42:05] sometimes we just need to help the patient, right? Not sometimes, always. It's always about the patient, [00:42:10] Dave. I have to tell you. It is. I'm committed to my patients. You know, I have amazing [00:42:15] relationships with them.
I really want to help them on their journey. So let's say there's a drug, let's take a drug like [00:42:20] Xolair, which is a drug we sometimes use. Used for mast cell activation syndrome. It's extraordinarily [00:42:25] expensive. It's ridiculously expensive, but it's used for allergies, asthma. Mm-hmm. [00:42:30] Um, tic hives, urticaria, and mast cell activation syndrome, but it's [00:42:35] not approved for mast cell activation syndrome.
Yeah. So if I need a patient to get this drug, [00:42:40] I'm gonna fight with the insurance company. 'cause there are very few patients who can pay $6,000 a [00:42:45] month.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm .
Speaker 3: to get to pay out of pocket for this drug.
Speaker 5: See, then it's worth your time. [00:42:50]
Speaker: Absolutely. And that's the thing because, you know, if you're going to save a patient [00:42:55] 60, a year, it's worth it.
And I just, um, I, [00:43:00] I've spent a lot of my life, people don't know this, you know, I started the first company that ever [00:43:05] sold anything over the internet because I couldn't pay my rent and my tuition. I sold a t shirt that said caffeine, my [00:43:10] drug of choice,
Speaker 5: and during
Speaker: summers that same year I also put auto parts in boxes in a 90 [00:43:15] degree warehouse all summer because it paid three times more.
Than a normal job and I scooped ice [00:43:20] cream at Baskin Robbins sometime too, like I was scrappy. So resourceful. Well, I've been there where [00:43:25] I don't really have enough money to do what I want to do and we have a systemic [00:43:30] problem and expecting your doctor to always go to the insurance [00:43:35] company for things it really increases the cost of health care and it means that you The doctor can see half as many [00:43:40] patients or has to hire three more nurses to deal with it.
And that's why it's like, it's not that your [00:43:45] doctors are bad people if they don't do that. It's that they're trying to allocate their time to really sick people [00:43:50] instead of to bureaucracy. And so this is the thing.
Speaker 3: I'll add one more thing because this is one of the [00:43:55] reasons I left, um, that model. Not only do insurance companies [00:44:00] dictate all this stuff, but they also, you know, they have, have these, um, they're sort of [00:44:05] in bed with various large medical groups and they, what they do is they [00:44:10] negotiate, the groups negotiate rates and how they're reimbursed.
And so they, [00:44:15] you know, in order to get more reimbursement from insurance companies for certain visits the [00:44:20] insurance companies will say, Hey, this is what we'll do. If you can make sure that your patients have [00:44:25] cholesterol levels under 200, we're going to pay you more. [00:44:30] for the visit, okay? And this is, so this is what happened to me.
They, they came [00:44:35] in and said, uh, your patients need to have, you know, under 200, and then a certain blood [00:44:40] pressure reading. And if they don't, you're gonna pay me. Me. They're gonna charge [00:44:45] me. I think first it was a dollar a patient, then it was five dollars a patient, and then ten dollars a [00:44:50] patient for every patient with a cholesterol over 200.
Speaker: And of course, [00:44:55] most doctors who are being paid that way, they don't tell their patients that.
Speaker 3: No, so, [00:45:00] so what they want you to do is to write a statin and again, there may be places for statins. I'm not, [00:45:05] I'm not, you know, going there, but they, they just want you to follow the [00:45:10] numbers so that they can get paid more.
And no one knows this, [00:45:15]
Speaker: isn't that like Rico? Behavior, like, really? [00:45:20] Hey, Bobby, Kennedy, and team. We have a racketeering case here, you're an attorney, [00:45:25] and these things are called PBMs. I'm
Speaker 3: just saying, like, that didn't seem right to me, but then yet, you know, the [00:45:30] director of the clinic would come to me, and I would get reprimanded all the time because my patient's [00:45:35] cholesterols were over 200, and I would say to them, I don't, why, why is that bad [00:45:40] necessarily?
Like, why is it close over 200 necessarily? Like, if I'm going to kill them, [00:45:45] I'm doing other things to help their health. If we, if we focus on one metric, right, we're missing the big [00:45:50] picture here. And he would say, well, too bad. Next month it goes up to 5 a patient. And next month it goes up to [00:45:55] 10 a patient.
I'm out of here. That's what I said.
Speaker: I would have made the same [00:46:00] decision just out of integrity. If you're caring for someone, you can't do that to them. Oh, [00:46:05] and if they're exposed to lots of these. Fat loving environmental [00:46:10] toxins. Isn't LDL important to help the body detox? Clear. Wait, you mean [00:46:15] toxic exposure could raise LDL so the body could clear it?
A
Speaker 3: hundred percent. Yeah.
Speaker: Have you guys [00:46:20] heard that before? I see it
Speaker 3: all the time. Yes. Excessively high levels. Uh huh. [00:46:25] And a lot of these patients will get their calcium scores done and they'll get, and they have no, no [00:46:30] evidence of heart disease. Yeah. They are just toxic.
Speaker: This is so [00:46:35] big. And it gets confusing because I've taken a lot of punches [00:46:40] from.
old fashioned people, uh, in the medical field. When I talk about [00:46:45] fat, you know, putting butter in coffee and things like that, uh, at this point, I think, you know, [00:46:50] many millions of people have done it and it works. But my proof point is [00:46:55] LP PLA2.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker: It's a marker of inflammation of the lining of your arteries.
So if they have a [00:47:00] problem, then if the cholesterol is causing a problem, you should see inflammation.
Speaker 3: You should see that [00:47:05] level go up because it says that there's plaque being built
Speaker: up
Speaker 3: on the lining of the [00:47:10] artery. That's what that marker is.
Speaker: So there you go, guys. If your cholesterol of 220 is really an issue, then [00:47:15] ask your doctor to run LP PLA2.
And if they won't run it, okay, I gotta ask.
Speaker 3: And an [00:47:20] LP a.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, both of them, yeah.
Speaker 3: Would be good to have, too.
Speaker: Is it ethical to need a [00:47:25] doctor's permission to get my lab tests run?
Speaker 3: Is it ethical?
Speaker: Why can't I just order [00:47:30] my lab tests? Why do I need to pay you to order them? Well,
Speaker 3: you can.
Speaker: Okay, good. I know, one of my companies does [00:47:35] that.
There are a lot of companies
Speaker 3: now that do it, and I'm all for it. I mean, I think, again, it goes back to [00:47:40] patients need to take control over their health. They need to be invested. in their [00:47:45] health, right? But there's also a role for us to
Speaker 5: work [00:47:50] 100
Speaker 3: percent with patients on that journey, because at some point it does [00:47:55] become bigger than them you know.
And
Speaker: if I can just be really clear, some of my [00:48:00] doctor friends will jokingly call me doctor, and I am so not a doctor. I don't know any of the critical [00:48:05] care stuff that you know. I did not go to medical school. I am a really damn good expert [00:48:10] at chronic illness and mitochondrial function. Well, in fact, I would argue.
Like in the top 10 [00:48:15] percent or something. I
Speaker 4: would agree.
Speaker: Right. It would have been nice if I focused that [00:48:20] attention elsewhere I only did this because no doctor could help me 20 years [00:48:25] ago and yes it's led to the biohacking movement and I'm grateful for it and like I my path has [00:48:30] been amazing and had a lot of pain and suffering and feeling like shit, but [00:48:35] Anyone listening, if you're saying, I have this weird stuff going on and I've done the normal stuff, I've [00:48:40] done the red light, I've done the hot and cold, and I've taken my adaptogens and, [00:48:45] you know, run your basic labs.
If it's still not working, for God's sake. You can follow my path, I spent two and a half [00:48:50] million dollars reversing my age, and about a half a million dollars getting wealth from mast cells, because no one knew what it was. [00:48:55] And you become an expert, and if that's your calling, great. If not, hire an expert!
You could [00:49:00] also, if you have a BMW, learn how to take the engine apart, or you could hire a mechanic. Like, there's a [00:49:05] role for professionals who really know what's going on. And if I could've called you [00:49:10] 20 years ago and said, I have no idea what's going on, but I'm so desperate and my brain doesn't work and I have all these [00:49:15] symptoms and no one believes me, I would have given you that 2 million just to [00:49:20] fix me if I actually did have 2 million back then.
I lost it after that. So would have been better to pay you than just lose it. [00:49:25] So this is how it is. So guys, don't don't underestimate [00:49:30] going to a doctor. But now here's the question. How does someone listening who doesn't live in New York where [00:49:35] you practice this? How do they know how to find a doctor who's going to be able to help them with this?
Speaker 3: We're [00:49:40] working on that. Okay.
Speaker: Well.
Speaker 3: We just formed a, um, a non [00:49:45] profit organization. Oh, cool. Called the International Society for Mass Electivation [00:49:50] Syndrome, or IS MCAS. Um, I'm on the executive board and, [00:49:55] uh, acting as treasurer. Wow. Um, and we are going to be, uh, [00:50:00] Raising funds and, um, working on creating a [00:50:05] educational program to train more and more doctors [00:50:10] and med students and we need to spread the word, right?
Speaker: [00:50:15] Maybe I can help at the biohacking conference. You know, it's called Beyond Biohacking. We [00:50:20] were doing that because we're doing so much longevity and consciousness. But we're, for the first time ever, [00:50:25] including continuing education credits for medical providers. Would you be interested in [00:50:30] giving a lecture on mast cells that allows doctors and caregivers who come to the biohacking conference to get [00:50:35] credits for that?
Speaker 3: I would love
Speaker: it. You are officially invited and if you're [00:50:40] a physician listening to this, you should come to the biohacking conference. It is going to [00:50:45] be really good because now that we can do CEs, we're doing an [00:50:50] extra day for physicians where we can just go really, really deep on the stuff that [00:50:55] you will not hear this at any of those old school longevity conferences that have been around for a long time [00:51:00] because they're recycling old content.
Yes, bioidentical hormones are good. But we got that, [00:51:05] okay.
Speaker 3: That's the truth.
Speaker: So, okay, thank you for [00:51:10] agreeing to that. I would love that.
Speaker 3: I think this is so important that I [00:51:15] would argue it is the most important thing for doctors to learn right now.
Speaker: Sometimes I think the most important thing for doctors to [00:51:20] learn is to tell all of their patients to get dimmer switches, red lights, and maybe [00:51:25] some true dark glasses.
Speaker 3: Okay, well.
Speaker: Circadian biology and mouse cells, talk to me about that.
Speaker 3: No, [00:51:30] it's all. Yeah. Very, very important.
Speaker: So what, what happens like if you're exposed to bright light at night, do your mast cells [00:51:35] hate that? Yes,
Speaker 3: absolutely. And mast cells are more active at night. There is a circadian rhythm [00:51:40] to the mast cell.
A lot of patients will tell you two o'clock in the morning or four o'clock in the [00:51:45] afternoon, whatever it is, they have a time when they're more likely to react. I have [00:51:50] a patient who cannot eat all day, but can only eat food at six o'clock at night because that's [00:51:55] when she's less reactive. You know, whatever it is, everyone's a little bit different.
But [00:52:00] honoring the circadian rhythm by blocking the, the red light or the [00:52:05] blue light, excuse me, um, using red light, using, you know, all those things, right, can only [00:52:10] optimize things.
Speaker: Okay. Now we're going to get into some are really interesting.
We [00:52:15] published a study with true dark glasses. This is the ones designed for, for sleep. And this is a company I [00:52:20] started 10 plus years ago for circadian biology.
Speaker 3: I have a, I have a pair too.
Speaker: Did you see the medical study we [00:52:25] published? Yeah. Oh, you did. Okay, you're one of the few who did. So it's cool because it [00:52:30] changes brainwaves to calm the nervous system.
And like, we do this with EEG [00:52:35] machines from 40 years of Zen and we got all the data and these things work like, kind of like [00:52:40] meditation. So there's something in the body called the cell danger response. [00:52:45] Yes. And you want to chill out so you don't trigger it. What is the cell danger response and [00:52:50] how does it connect to mast cells?
Speaker 3: So the cell danger response is really your body's right response [00:52:55] to. It's a, it's a host of, or it's a, it's a variety of different [00:53:00] mechanisms, very often mitochondrial, um, that you know, again, [00:53:05] try to protect your, your body on. But unfortunately, it actually goes [00:53:10] into the body goes into overdrive during this cell danger response.
And I think the mast cells are very [00:53:15] much integrated into that response, even though, even though it's not [00:53:20] really talked about in the papers on cell danger response, I would say that, you know, there is that [00:53:25] integral connection.
Speaker: I feel like they're plugged in. That was the picture I had. And there's a [00:53:30] crosstalk because when the cell feels unsafe and I would say straight up, cells do feel [00:53:35] things, because you can take a bacterial cell, it'll respond to the environment, it'll move [00:53:40] away from danger.
And so will the cells, even the mitochondria in our body. So when [00:53:45] there is danger, the cell is going to attempt to deal with the danger [00:53:50] via many different defense mechanisms. One of the things cell dangerous response [00:53:55] does is it will create inflammatory cytokines. That's right. And we are, we have in studies, [00:54:00] inflammatory cytokines being present will trigger mast cells.
And different cytokines in different [00:54:05] people trigger mast cells in different parts of the body. That's right. So, we have a mechanistic link. Yeah. [00:54:10] So, what I'd say is if you're feeling emotional stress, your mast cells are going to get worse. And [00:54:15] what do you see in patients?
Speaker 3: With stress?
Speaker: Yeah, with emotional stress and messes.
Oh.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's It's a [00:54:20] trigger, right? It's one of the biggest triggers, actually.
Speaker 5: Oh.
Speaker 3: And I would argue that, [00:54:25] that, that has to be a big piece. So, um, managing the sympathetic nervous system [00:54:30]
Speaker 4: is,
Speaker 3: is really critical. You know, doing limbic [00:54:35] retraining of some kind.
Speaker: I'm laughing, I didn't mean to interrupt [00:54:40] you.
Because you just justified, oh, this is why [00:54:45] biohackers, especially ones with chronic illness, like meditation. One of my favorite tools is like [00:54:50] the ZenBud vagal nerve ultrasonic [00:54:55] stimulator. Wow, and meditation and breathwork, all the things. Mast cells and [00:55:00] mitochondria, they're, they're right in there as a core foundational element that most people [00:55:05] don't see.
And that's why I think this is such an important interview and I'm, I'm so happy that you can go there. Yes, [00:55:10] sleep, mast cells. Yes. Sympathetic nervous system stress. And it doesn't matter if it's because [00:55:15] of your mother in law, or if it's because you're, you know, anxious about whatever you're doing at work.
[00:55:20] That day, you wake up and you're puffy. Maybe it was the mold in your bedroom. Sure. And [00:55:25] maybe it was the thoughts in your head, right?
Speaker 3: Exactly. How
Speaker: do I know which one?
Speaker 3: Well, that's where you [00:55:30] really, I really do encourage people to start to explore these things. That's why you have to explore [00:55:35] meditation or, or getting sun in the morning or grounding or [00:55:40] whatever, whatever you can do.
Right? We have these various tools. People [00:55:45] resonate differently with these different things, But the more you do that, the more you'll be able to, [00:55:50] to really connect what's really causing the problems. So for instance if [00:55:55] um, you do all this work, but every time you sleep in your bedroom you have a problem, right?
[00:56:00] Then you're more likely to, To think that there is something in the bedroom causing the [00:56:05] problem because you've done a lot of this other work, right? So it does help to eliminate, you [00:56:10] know, variables.
Speaker: It sure does. And for me to get to where I am now, I had to just test [00:56:15] everything. And Exactly. I think the most important piece of advice [00:56:20] I would have, you may disagree with, I don't know.
Testing one variable at a time doesn't work very well because [00:56:25] there's probably 10 things contributing to mast cells. I feel like you gotta just do all the things you can at the [00:56:30] same time to just see if you can finally feel good. And then, okay, which of those 10 [00:56:35] is optional, and then you can kind of back out?
Is that good advice? A lot of doctors hate that advice.
Speaker 3: Okay, [00:56:40] so this is the, this is the challenge, okay? Because I, I'm on [00:56:45] board with you, and I think there are a lot of patients that, you know, say to me, look, [00:56:50] I don't have time to do one thing at a time, right? I [00:56:55] have, I've been sick. I have to move on with my life.
Give me everything, right? And I have the patients [00:57:00] that can handle that, but I do have these exquisitely sensitive patients where you [00:57:05] don't have a choice. You really are going to do one thing at a time, and you're going to wait a few weeks [00:57:10] because let's give an example. I tell them to take Claritin,
Speaker 4: right?
Speaker 3: Okay. They buy the over the counter [00:57:15] Claritin. And they react to it. So now I have to figure out, is there, is there [00:57:20] ingredients in claritin that they're reacting to? They're, you know, some of the claritins [00:57:25] have lactose. Some claritins have, you know, these various excipients, we call them. [00:57:30] So then that patient, right, are they reacting to the claritin or are they reacting to something with the [00:57:35] claritin?
So now I may have to compound that claritin. [00:57:40] Wow. And then they have to try that, and then maybe that doesn't work. So for some [00:57:45] patients, so I think it depends, right? In the perfect world, yeah, they'd be [00:57:50] able to maximize things by doing lots of things at the same time. That's why I [00:57:55] have, I have these various, uh, biohacking tools in my, in my office, right?
Sometimes we say, [00:58:00] look, you got to do 10 pass ozone and red light. And we have the nano [00:58:05] V and we have the balancer pro we're going to do lymphatic drainage. And we're going to do, we're going to do this [00:58:10] all because your body is It's shutting down, and we've got to just get it back. But [00:58:15] there are patients who, that approach won't work, right?
And this is what I love about, that's why I [00:58:20] called my clinic AEM Center for Personalized Medicine, because it's personalized. And I think it has [00:58:25] to be.
Speaker: It has to be personalized. And this is why I've never published the complete list [00:58:30] of all the things I take. I actually showed you my vitamin vaults. I mean, it's a sizable room.
[00:58:35] But I don't publish it because I don't want people to copy me, because that's not how you do it. It has to be personalized. And this is why you'll [00:58:40] never see me launch 55 ingredients. in one longevity supplement because five of those are going to screw [00:58:45] everybody up. It's just a different five for each person.
Speaker 4: Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker: I appreciate the [00:58:50] nuances there. And my advice would still be for biohackers, [00:58:55] if you're so sensitive that everything breaks you, then don't do everything at once. And you absolutely need to [00:59:00] call Tanya or find the right care provider. And if you have enough resilience [00:59:05] to do several things at once, We don't have any studies showing that a single variable will do anything.[00:59:10]
In fact, the odds are much higher that more than one variable at the same time is going to create results. [00:59:15] And I spent two years in my 20s trying to test single [00:59:20] variables and I never got anywhere. And then I did the math. Like, I could do one variable per month for the [00:59:25] rest of my life and I'm not going to make it, and I'm going to hate my life the whole time.
So, you [00:59:30] can also do so much that you break yourself. Yeah. And the risk is, I [00:59:35] finally, I'm free, right, and you get your energy back, and then you immediately accelerate and then you hit the [00:59:40] wall again, right, and this is why having an expert who's just seen enough patience can [00:59:45] help you, uh, and there's so many techniques that we won't go into on the show about increasing [00:59:50] resilience so you can handle things, uh, and thanks for just calling out, there are people so [00:59:55] sensitive,
Speaker 3: That's my thing.
patient population, you know, they tend to be a little bit.
Speaker: They [01:00:00] filter themselves out, like, I'll fly to New York to see Tanya because, yeah, because [01:00:05] you really have this. I may end up sending a couple people your way. I'm working with a couple pro athletes now [01:00:10] where I take a history, again, I'm just a consultant, and I'm like, you have a
Speaker 5: track record [01:00:15] of mast cell stuff and you have collagen disorders.
And let's
Speaker: talk about that for just a minute. [01:00:20]
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good topic.[01:00:25]
Speaker: So many people. You have a hard time with say joint [01:00:30] hypermobility, you also have mast cells, and I don't have Ehlers Danlos [01:00:35] syndrome, but it is one of the most common things, there's 27, 28 types of it, but I am pretty darn [01:00:40] flexible, you know, I, I can, I can do things, um, but I wasn't flexible when I was young, I think this comes from [01:00:45] yoga, I know I'm from weird collagen,
Speaker 3: right?
Speaker: Because I don't have, can you, can you do, what's this test called? [01:00:50]
Speaker 3: It's part of the BITEN score.
Speaker: BITEN? BITEN.
Speaker 3: Biden.
Speaker: But not like Joe Biden, because then it would be like
Speaker 3: [01:00:55] Biden. Oh, sorry.
Speaker: Oh, my gosh, I'm going to get in trouble for that. But
Speaker 3: [01:01:00] it turns out that the Biden, turns out that the Biden score is not that, is not [01:01:05] really great for adults.
Okay. It's more useful for, for kids.
Speaker: And what this is, what is [01:01:10] the Biden score? It's a measure of whether you have hypermobile joints. So if you can bend your, your wrist and [01:01:15] your thumb touches your forearm, That's a sign. You do
Speaker 3: it both sides. Yeah. You take [01:01:20] your, you take your pinky. You see if you can bring your pinky back.
Speaker: Like how far back?
Speaker 3: [01:01:25] Well, it should go at least 90 degrees or more. Yours is, yeah.
Speaker: My pinkies are double [01:01:30] jointed. A little
Speaker 3: bit, yeah. And then, and then you put your elbows out and you're looking for, [01:01:35] uh, an angle.
Speaker: My son and mother have an angle like that. They can, look, my [01:01:40] mom can touch her arms behind her back.
So there's something weird. There's something. For me, it's probably RCCX, which is [01:01:45] relatively unknown. Um, but I'm just saying there are genetic [01:01:50] associations. And if you're super bendy and hypermobile, or if your arms, if you [01:01:55] measure your wingspan is greater than your height, your risk of having mast cell disorders is much higher, [01:02:00] right?
Speaker 3: Might, might be, yeah. I mean, I think that there's definitely this connection, right? [01:02:05] There's, there's a genetic EDSs or Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, but there's also [01:02:10] hypermobility syndrome. We actually don't have the genetics of. We don't know what it is genetically. [01:02:15] But there is an association with mast cells, and what we believe is that As I said, [01:02:20] mast cells are in all your tissue in your body, and they're in abundance in your connective tissue.
Speaker: [01:02:25] Hmm. Oh, this is interesting. So you have more mast cells in your connective tissue, which [01:02:30] is why so many people, they eat the wrong thing and they get sore joints the next day, right? Yeah, that's part of it. I did not know that [01:02:35] the density was so high. Okay.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's high. Yeah, and certainly like the GI tract, the [01:02:40] skin, the connective tissue.
I mean a lot, there are a lot of other places that they're high in and some people have [01:02:45] more in their connective tissue than let's say in other parts of their body. [01:02:50] And so the mast cells when they release their cytokines and these mediators, you know, they can release [01:02:55] various compounds that act as like a collagenase, like an enzyme, [01:03:00] that breaks down Collagen.
MMP9 is [01:03:05] another uh, horm, uh, chemical, we'll say, that breaks down connective tissue and [01:03:10] collagen that can predispose people to various joint tendon [01:03:15] issues and, and ligament issues.
Speaker: You're probably the only person [01:03:20] to talk about MMP9 on the show.
Speaker 4: Really? Okay.
Speaker: And so, a little [01:03:25] educational moment for our listeners.
Uh, MMPs [01:03:30] are critical causes of aging. You have high MMP, [01:03:35] you'll age. And I've been looking for ways to lower those and it's very hard to do. [01:03:40] So what I did oh two years ago, I [01:03:45] ate oysters in Las Vegas. Eating oysters in the desert is still kind of dumb.
Speaker 3: Probably not. [01:03:50] I think I know where this is going.
Yeah,
Speaker: there's two kinds of [01:03:55] oyster bacterial toxins. There's ones that paralyze you and kill you, and the other ones radically raise [01:04:00] MMPs. I woke up after sweating through the bed. Sorry, Bellagio, [01:04:05] wherever I was staying. And then I felt like a car hit me. I mean, every joint in my [01:04:10] body, horrible pain and just nasty.
This is high MMPs. [01:04:15] So. I took all the inflammatory, all the mast cell things, and it kind of helps, but [01:04:20] like, this sucks. As long as you have it for six weeks after bad oysters. Uh, but there's a [01:04:25] little known technology that lowers MMPs throughout the body. Can you guess what it is?
Speaker 3: Well, I was [01:04:30] going to tell you about a drug that I've, that I've been interested in.
Okay. It's MMP9, but I, I
Speaker: took it in [01:04:35] college. I'll add the drug to my longevity stack.
This is something that I do head to toe. Studies [01:04:40] show that shockwave therapy, so Wasabi Method is one of my companies that has a shockwave device. I just start at [01:04:45] the toes and go up. I went over every sore joint. And I was 50 percent better after one [01:04:50] treatment, and I'm not saying this treats anything.
Um, we only use it for longevity and performance. [01:04:55] But Shockwave, that technology, is in studies. It lowers [01:05:00] 19 markers of longevity, which is why I do whole body Shockwave. It's a big deal.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Wow, that's [01:05:05] exciting. Can I get one for my clinic? Yeah,
Speaker: in fact, it's the [01:05:10] lowest cost clinical grade out there and people who are not doctors are allowed to buy it because we do the regulatory.
Speaker 3: Okay, so I want to talk [01:05:15] about that.
Speaker: SabiMethod. com, anyway.
Speaker 3: Um, tell me about the drug. This is not the [01:05:20] drug that you're going to want to take, you know, regularly. Just microdosing. But could be microdosing. [01:05:25] Doxycycline.
Speaker: Ah, there's actually really good evidence for longevity, low [01:05:30] dose doxy or minocycline, right?
Correct. So I've been thinking about doing low dose minnow cycling because [01:05:35] I've read it doesn't
Speaker 5: mess up your gut bacteria. Because it
Speaker 3: doesn't affect it the same way, but it does [01:05:40] lower the MMPs in particular. Okay.
Speaker: So it would be
Speaker 3: compounded, you know, [01:05:45] maybe like low, low, low dose.
Speaker: So minnow versus doxycycline, which is better?
Speaker 3: Minnow is going to be, so [01:05:50] doxy has more research.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 3: Um, minnow is a little easier on the, on the [01:05:55] GI tract.
Speaker: I look back in my life, if only. [01:06:00] I would have known or we would have known. There was a time where I bought a farmhouse in [01:06:05] Silicon Valley. It was still possible back then. And it was on four acres.
And the [01:06:10] only way I could afford this, this was in the 90s right before everything went nuts. The house was appraised at [01:06:15] 12, 000. Because there were holes in the walls. I mean, it was a hundred year old homestead house. And I [01:06:20] couldn't have, I could afford the land, but I couldn't afford to fix the house.
Other than fix it, but not tear it down. [01:06:25] So, did the best remodel I could. Maybe didn't get all the permits, sorry guys. And [01:06:30] when it would rain, water would pool under the house. And I didn't know I [01:06:35] was allergic to toxic mold. So, I moved there, and I was like, God, I just feel [01:06:40] so bad, like something's not right.
Mast cell everywhere. And I moved out of the house with stachypatras, so it's [01:06:45] just like bad luck, because nobody knew, and there's so much water damage. So, I [01:06:50] got some kind of sinus infection, and they gave me doxycycline. And I took it, and I [01:06:55] still remember standing in my kitchen that day going, Oh my god, I feel so [01:07:00] good.
Like, I want to take this antibiotic every day because this is how I'm supposed to feel. [01:07:05] And so what was happening is I was getting mast cell activation, and probably my MMP9s were [01:07:10] high, right? Oh my gosh, this is like 20 plus years ago.
Speaker 3: And doxy [01:07:15] is a mast cell stabilizer. Yeah. In addition, beyond its other effects, which is [01:07:20] interesting, so.
Although, yeah, there are lots of people who can't tolerate it, blah, blah, blah. But, I hear these stories all the [01:07:25] time, where people are like, I took Doxy and I felt incredible. Couldn't just be, you [01:07:30] were killing something. Couldn't have just been, oh, the sinus infection, or Lyme, or whatever, using Doxy. [01:07:35] There's another, there's another, it's a potent anti inflammatory.
Speaker: My [01:07:40] goodness, so you just put another little piece in my own personal biohacking puzzle. Okay, [01:07:45] now I'm gonna piss you off.
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm ready.
Speaker: I recommend you go to [01:07:50] a functional medicine physician if you can afford one. And I also know a lot of people [01:07:55] listening don't have money for that. So, if you wanted to [01:08:00] try doxycycline, you can buy it online from India.
And [01:08:05] it'll go directly to you. And it's more affordable. You don't have to talk to your insurance company. You don't have to [01:08:10] pay 400 or more per hour for a permission slip to just try something once [01:08:15] to see if it really helps you. If it does help you, maybe you want to go to the doctor and say, I noticed this helps.
[01:08:20] Why shouldn't biohackers who can't afford to go to the doctor [01:08:25] just buy their drugs from India?
Speaker 3: So I'm not, I'm not completely opposed [01:08:30] to this.
Speaker: Wow, okay, you're progressive.
Speaker 3: I'm not, because I can see the [01:08:35] utility.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: What I would say is that, um, the [01:08:40] concern I would have is the quality coming from India versus somewhere else, right?
[01:08:45] So there's that piece of it. Like, can we guarantee that what you're getting is really the [01:08:50] drug?
Speaker: And does it have heavy metals and stuff? That is an absolute risk.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I had a [01:08:55] patient who had not getting drugs from India, but getting herbs from India.
Speaker: That's risky. Yeah
Speaker 3: [01:09:00] got Toxic lead levels of over 40.
I [01:09:05] don't think I've ever seen a lead level over 40 I'll
Speaker: drop your IQ like no one's business Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it [01:09:10] probably caused her ALS so I just worry about that type of thing, like [01:09:15] people are getting things from a country where it may not be regulated.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: But, you know, I do [01:09:20] think that, um, there are things that people can try on their, on their own.[01:09:25]
I think that is they're following their, their own labs and they're make [01:09:30] sure their, you know, liver is okay. I mean, I'm not opposed to it. I still like the concept, you know, I'm [01:09:35] really this old fashioned type of country doctor, I'm not a country doctor. Yeah. But I still still [01:09:40] have this sort of mentality about having relationships with patients and [01:09:45] discussing these things.
And patients come to me all the time and they're like, well, what do you think if I try, you know, [01:09:50] this and maybe I never heard of it, or maybe I think it's risky and we just talk about it and then they do what they, [01:09:55] you know, what they want ultimately, right? I like, but I like the idea of having the relationships.
But Yeah. But for [01:10:00] those out there who don't have the ability to have a relationship with, uh, with a [01:10:05] doctor, then, yeah, you have to take things into your own hands to some extent, and I, I understand that.
Speaker: [01:10:10] That's really progressive. I think I might have some strong emotions [01:10:15] about that because when I was somewhere in my mid twenties, [01:10:20] I was so addled by mast cells and toxic mold and Bartonella, [01:10:25] which is a Lyme co infection we didn't even talk about.
I was making pretty good [01:10:30] money, but not enough to cover all of my costs. It was extra stressor in my, the brief marriage I had in my 20s, [01:10:35] where I was just like, why do you spend 20 percent of our monthly income on your health? I'm like, so I can keep working. And [01:10:40] I bought disability insurance. In fact, the policy is still in effect today.
Because all my lab tests were clear. The doctor said, there's nothing wrong [01:10:45] with you. But I'm like, something, I don't know. Right? So I filled out all the paperwork truthfully and [01:10:50] all that stuff. And they said, alright, here's the policy. Because I'm like, well, what if something happens? Right? Because I'm [01:10:55] healthy by all measures, but I don't know if I'm healthy.
And so there was a fear of, [01:11:00] can I put, you know, can I put food on the table [01:11:05] if my symptoms get worse?
Speaker 3: That's, yeah, that's, uh, scary.
Speaker: And [01:11:10] For people who are listeners, there are some that are going well, maybe I can spend 20 bucks on a box of [01:11:15] Doxycycline and take a cordial tablet a day and that'll let me keep working my job so that I can [01:11:20] take care of my family.
Like, I respect that so much.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker: How much of anxiety in the world today is [01:11:25] just caused by mast cell activation syndrome that people don't even know they have?
Speaker 3: A lot. [01:11:30]
Speaker: Whoa, really? How, like half?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, well, let's just say [01:11:35] this, right? If 20 percent of the population has MCAS, a fair number of [01:11:40] those are going to have some level of anxiety or depression or some kind of, you know, mental illness [01:11:45] of, of some kind just to various degrees.
So maybe not half, but, but a good portion, [01:11:50] I think, um, is due to, no, maybe, maybe half of those. I have to think [01:11:55] about the math on that. Okay. Thanks. What I would say is this, that so much of what we [01:12:00] attribute anxiety and depression to is not just the psyche. [01:12:05] It is a physiological response. And [01:12:10] I think that the more that psychiatrists and mental health professionals can see it, [01:12:15] the better it is for the patients, right?
So you could use, believe it or not, Benadryl, [01:12:20] Claritin. There are so many tools for, that you can use to help [01:12:25] anxiety. Without having to use anxiety medication.
Speaker: You're just [01:12:30] illuminating so many things where I had all most of these pieces, but [01:12:35] here's how I would differentiate whether your anxiety is trauma.
And I've done huge amounts of trauma work 40 [01:12:40] years as in, you know, the old books about it. I'm not saying it isn't. So that was real for everyone [01:12:45] who's listening. And by the way, if that triggered you, dude, you have trauma. Okay, so [01:12:50] I also had trauma over inflammatory responses. [01:12:55] Because I would walk into a room that had toxic mold.
My body picks up [01:13:00] toxic mold. And this massive shift in my consciousness would [01:13:05] happen. Sometimes it was rage, depending on the species. And sometimes it was just anxiety. [01:13:10] My blood pressure would drop, my heart would race. And people who have toxic mold, [01:13:15] they know this feeling. They call it mold brain or mold rage.
And [01:13:20] it's a physical anxiety response you can measure. So, first I learned, [01:13:25] well, I can consciously reduce my physical or mental anxiety with heart rate [01:13:30] variability. And I teach people how to do that, like how to, how to, like, oh, look, my system's going haywire, [01:13:35] let's bonk it. It was only later that I realized there's a protocol for [01:13:40] what to do when your environment causes rapid onset anxiety.
[01:13:45] So, if you're feeling pretty good And then you have a meal, and during the meal, or a half hour after the meal, [01:13:50] you feel like you're gonna die. Or that everyone around you just turned into an asshole. It's not [01:13:55] you, it's not trauma, most likely, it is a physiological response to your [01:14:00] environment. And then the body says, I gotta protect myself, I'm gonna look for the cause.
And I think this [01:14:05] causes a huge amount of problem in society. Right, because we're all sitting in these bodies and if your body [01:14:10] suddenly is like, I'm gonna die, you think you're gonna die, and it was something you breathed, or [01:14:15] it was something in your food. That's right. And it was a mass cell that sat at the center of that.
Speaker 3: Wow. [01:14:20] You know, when patients wake up, a lot of, a lot of patients will wake up in the night or in the morning [01:14:25] with these anxiety attacks or panic attacks, right? And so again, their loved ones are saying, Oh, [01:14:30] you need, you need help. You're stressed. You know, you have all this going on. And I'm [01:14:35] Sure, they're, they're stressed, but that type of response is, is [01:14:40] physiological, and I would say the majority of what people deal with is.
Speaker: That means [01:14:45] drop all the shame, drop all the guilt. It's not your fault. It's a hardware problem. And we can all fix hardware [01:14:50] problems, but if it's a moral problem, then I guess you're just screwed. And so there's a [01:14:55] lot of judgment that we may have towards other people, and if it's rapid onset anxiety for no apparent [01:15:00] reason, That's one thing, like if you're, you know, a family member or a narcissist calls [01:15:05] you and you have a panic arrest, okay, you've been facing emotional abuse.
It's another thing [01:15:10] though, if it just happens for what feels like no reason, and for me the protocol was [01:15:15] immediately upregulate mitochondrial function and downregulate histamine. So you take a little bit of Benadryl, pop a [01:15:20] Claritin, pop a Pepsod AC, have two shots of espresso with [01:15:25] sugar in it. Because sugar.
causes an anti stress response. Don't take sugar [01:15:30] all the time, it's not good for you. But you're basically telling the body, here's a lot of energy, take some ketones, take a bunch of [01:15:35] mitochondrial simulators, chill out by putting on Trudart glasses that [01:15:40] calm physiological stuff and change brainwaves, and you can turn off the anxiety response.[01:15:45]
Right, and you might be a little tired from the Benadryl or something, but I've seen this work over and over.
Speaker 3: Oh, [01:15:50] so many things, so many times.
Speaker: Let's talk about, Ativan. What does that do for mast [01:15:55] cells?
Speaker 3: Well, so Ativan's in the class of drugs known as benzodiazepines, [01:16:00] Xanax, Klonopin Ativan Valium, right?
There, there are a few [01:16:05] of, there are a few others. Uh, some of them, you know, are, um, oral IV and they give it in [01:16:10] different ways. They are, there are, uh, receptors on the mast cell surface for [01:16:15] benzodiazepines. And so Ativan or Xanax or whatever can bind the mast cell and can calm it [01:16:20] down. So what happens to a lot of anxious people is that they are, they've given, they've been [01:16:25] given, or people with anxiety, I should say, are given a benzodiazepine by a family doctor.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani. And [01:16:30] you know, I'm a psychiatrist, you know, I'm a doctor or a psychiatrist, and they say, Oh, just take this when you're anxious. And they come in, you know, they see me and they say, [01:16:35] Oh, yeah, by the way, I'm taking this for my anxiety. And it works. And I feel so much [01:16:40] better after I take it.
And I said, well, and they said, Oh, it's for my anxiety. And I said, No, I don't think it's for your [01:16:45] anxiety. I think it's for your muscle activation syndrome. I think it's just a muscle stabilizer. [01:16:50] And then there's a lot of stigma around these drugs, but when used appropriately at very low [01:16:55] doses, it can be helpful.
You just have to be, you know, careful.
Speaker: I have [01:17:00] seen uh, someone I know really, really well, um, who takes a [01:17:05] half of the smallest dose of Ativan. Oh no, addictive benzos! [01:17:10] At that dose, that has not ramped up over the course of years, and manages mast cells, [01:17:15] inflammation, and these feelings of, you know, rapid heartbeat anxiety and panic attacks.[01:17:20]
It's not anything but mast cells, and the fact that for, in that case, [01:17:25] The receptors in their biology, they [01:17:30] like that stuff and it works.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker: And there's a stigma in the biohacking community that I've worked [01:17:35] for years to just get over. It doesn't matter if it's a drug, if it's [01:17:40] a technique of breathing or an ice bath at the right time of day, it doesn't matter.[01:17:45]
What are the benefits? What are the risks? And are they worth it for you [01:17:50] right now? That's all that matters. That's right. And I've also said, this will [01:17:55] really piss people off pre pandemic, I had a guest on the [01:18:00] show talking about the potential of mRNA vaccines for longevity. [01:18:05] Okay, so if you get an Alzheimer's vaccine that actually had published studies that worked and that, [01:18:10] you know, I don't, by the way, I don't believe any science on vaccines right now because all of it has [01:18:15] been polluted by lies, cheating and deception.
So anyone who says, well, they're proven safe to [01:18:20] show me that that was not a corrupt study because of the degree of lying. Right. So [01:18:25] throughout all the research on vaccines, start over and I'll listen. That's my perspective. [01:18:30] I've talked to too many people who have brain fog and mass cell activation after [01:18:35] getting one or two or three COVID vaccines and they get it within days.[01:18:40]
Did the COVID vaccine cause an epidemic of mass cell activation syndrome in people? [01:18:45]
Speaker 3: I think both the virus itself and the vaccine [01:18:50] has definitely ramped up. the, the number of people who are suffering. And [01:18:55] I think it's the spike protein. I think it's very specific because the mRNA [01:19:00] vaccine causes the production of spike protein.
What we were taught early on [01:19:05] is that the mRNA would go, you know, would send the message to the DNA [01:19:10] to, to the virus. The spike protein would build up against the antibody response. [01:19:15] And so the next time you saw the virus, you would have [01:19:20] antibodies to it. That's what was supposed to happen. It sounded good, right?
Well [01:19:25] unfortunately in many people the spike protein. didn't go away. The spike protein was supposed to go [01:19:30] away.
Speaker: Like hundreds of times higher than getting the virus, right?
Speaker 3: I think, I think that's what some of the [01:19:35] studies have, have shown. But even with the virus, same thing. They get, they get [01:19:40] it and for a lot of people, uh, the spike protein It establishes itself [01:19:45] somewhere in the body.
Sometimes it's the GI tract, sometimes it's the heart, sometimes it's somewhere else, [01:19:50] and it just is there, and it is ramping up the immune response. Maybe [01:19:55] it's getting into the, into the, uh, monocytes, and there are lots of theories of where the, where the [01:20:00] spike protein is going and what it's doing, but I think we have enough evidence to say that there's something about the [01:20:05] spike protein itself that then is causing this immune [01:20:10] dysregulation that I would call mast cell activation syndrome.
Speaker: Unquestionably, the spike [01:20:15] protein is bad for mast cells and bad for people. The studies that [01:20:20] I've come across, and there are now lots and lots of studies out there, I've not read all of them, but they're [01:20:25] saying if you get the virus, you get spike proteins at lower levels and limited to [01:20:30] certain tissues, like more lung and sinuses and things like that.
And they can travel around, [01:20:35] but It's a transient amount of time, and that when people get the vaccine, they make more of [01:20:40] it, and they make it systemically, and you find way more spike protein in the [01:20:45] ovaries, in the testes, in cardiac tissue, in their brains, and it's caused [01:20:50] these people, the vast majority of people, with long COVID, We're vaccinated, not [01:20:55] regular COVID people.
Have you seen that in your practice?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's hard to piece apart. I mean, [01:21:00] there are just enough people that have both, so it's sort of hard to know.
Speaker: So are you protecting your [01:21:05] license right now?
Speaker 3: Maybe.
Speaker: Okay, I respect that.
Speaker 3: Um, and look, and I'm not [01:21:10] anti vax.
Speaker: Everyone says that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not.
Speaker: Did you get [01:21:15] the COVID vax?
Speaker 3: But I did early on. Did
Speaker: you get number six?
Speaker 3: No, I got the first [01:21:20] two.
Speaker: Why did you stop?
Speaker 3: Because I knew something was wrong. You
Speaker: sound like an anti vaxxer to [01:21:25] me. I'm just teasing you. I
Speaker 3: know. But the [01:21:30] reality is that I do think that there are vaccines that are, are important. Which [01:21:35] ones?
Speaker: Well, I
Speaker 3: have a problem with HPV also.[01:21:40]
God, Tanya, Tanya,
Speaker: you sound like an anti. Tell me about how bad HPV [01:21:45] is and then tell me which ones are good.
Speaker 3: Okay, so I did publish with my colleague, Dr. Afrin. [01:21:50] Um, we did a, uh, a case series on, um, HPV [01:21:55] vaccine causing escalation in, of mast cell activation syndrome in patients who probably [01:22:00] had it before the vaccine.
So we did publish on it. So
Speaker 5: you've shown that
Speaker: [01:22:05] giving these little an HPV vaccine that wears [01:22:10] off before they would ever get HPV. Increases their risk of getting mass cell [01:22:15] syndrome
Speaker 3: or escalates, they probably were already vulnerable [01:22:20] to taking vulnerable people and and causing an escalation. So what [01:22:25] I think has to be done is that we have to develop tools to [01:22:30] identify patients who don't have those risks.
Because I think there are people out there who get [01:22:35] vaccines and are fine, and they'll never have a problem. How do we identify [01:22:40] those people? In my patient population, because my patients are so sensitive, They're
Speaker: all the sick ones, right? [01:22:45]
Speaker 3: So it seems like, you know, I might have a stance against vaccinations.
It's not against it, [01:22:50] it's just that for my patient population, I have to be Extraordinarily cautious.
Speaker: I [01:22:55] respect that, and I'm totally putting on the spot here, which is kind of fun. It's fine, I can take it. Pushing [01:23:00] people's buttons is my love language. So you said a couple things that are important. One is your colleague, Dr.
[01:23:05] Afrin. He's not related to Afrin nasal spray, it's spelled the same way. He is the worst author on the [01:23:10] planet, you can tell him I said that. Great. And he acknowledges it. But he wrote my first sentence in his book. [01:23:15] And his book on mast cells. But
Speaker 4: his book is huge. It changed my
Speaker: life. I read the whole thing and I had to, like, rewrite it in my [01:23:20] brain.
But that was the book that illuminated for me this understanding of mast [01:23:25] cells. So, tell him I said thanks. In fact, I'd love to have him on the show sometime. I
Speaker 3: will, I will let him know.
Speaker: So, thanks, Nick. [01:23:30] Um, I love that you're working with the guy who kind of cracked the code.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's, he's in my practice, we work together, [01:23:35] we publish a lot, we publish.
I didn't realize he was in your
Speaker: practice. Oh, oh goodness. Okay, cool. He's [01:23:40] uh, he's one of those unusual brains of the world. He is,
Speaker 3: he is really, really a [01:23:45] special person. And is so committed to the cause, you know, and really to understand [01:23:50] this and publish. And we have another paper we just published together.
I mean, I think I've published eight or nine [01:23:55] papers with him already. We have a couple others on the docket. You know, he, um, we [01:24:00] published on GLP 1, the utility of GLP 1s in mast cell activation syndrome. That was just published last [01:24:05] week.
Speaker: Another reason that you might want to microdose those for longevity, right?
Correct. Okay.
Speaker 3: So anyway. [01:24:10] Okay.
Speaker: What about nicotine in mast cells?
Speaker 3: Is that what you're, is that what you're thinking? Yeah, [01:24:15] I like
Speaker: nicotine. I did the, the first biohacking podcast talking about Alzheimer's and [01:24:20] nicotine many years ago.
Speaker 3: I'm fascinated by the, by the research [01:24:25] and the literature on it. And I think it's fascinating, um, how it may be helping [01:24:30] our long COVID patients.
And maybe it's helping them through a number of different pathways. [01:24:35] And maybe it is helping on a mast cell level. Um, I don't know if I, [01:24:40] If I can say it's only a, you know, doing that, there may be other things. I think there's some people who are more [01:24:45] sensitive to nicotine.
Speaker: Yeah, they probably shouldn't take it.
Speaker 3: And they shouldn't take it, yeah. Uh, but I think it's an interesting [01:24:50] tool, um, and I think that, um, you know, again, I do have patients, literally [01:24:55] overnight, their brain fog cleared, you know, so I It's pretty magic for
Speaker: brain fog for a lot of [01:25:00] people. Okay. We know that it's beneficial at low doses, [01:25:05] pharmaceutical nicotine non smoking, um, for mitochondrial function via PGC 1 alpha and various [01:25:10] other mechanisms.
Increasing mitochondrial function lowers mast cell [01:25:15] activation in general, but not completely, but it lowers it. And we know it blocks [01:25:20] the spike protein ACE2 receptor, which would also lower mast cell activation [01:25:25] if the spike cell is causing it. So, I would say if you have brain fog Because those
Speaker 3: receptors are on the mast cell also, so
Speaker: Oh, [01:25:30] of course, right?
Uh, so then, look, your risk of doing nicotine [01:25:35] up to 10 mg per day, max, don't go above that, even though I might have done that in my learning [01:25:40] process the risk is low. I actually think it's pro longevity because of anti Parkinson's, anti [01:25:45] Alzheimer's, and benefits to mitochondria. People sometimes disagree, [01:25:50] whatever.
But if you have a brain fog that's disabling, you're insane to not try a nicotine patch [01:25:55] or a lozenge that doesn't have NutraSweet in it. Because it may work. How much are you
Speaker 3: doing? Like, while we were [01:26:00] sitting here
Speaker: hiding? Um, those are 1. 5 milligram doses. Very, very low doses. [01:26:05] The problem is, I did one milligram a day for five years.
[01:26:10] No addictiveness whatsoever. Then I went to two because I just like it. And then I said, my life is so [01:26:15] much better when I'm 18. Like, screw this. I'm just going to do whatever I want to. Uh, and then I got up to like 40 [01:26:20] milligrams a day, which is a lot.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker: And, There's probably sympathetic activation [01:26:25] response from that you don't want.
And so I see a lot of people now using these Zen things, 6 milligrams, [01:26:30] 12 milligrams, and getting microplastics. I do not recommend that. And I've gone really deep about to [01:26:35] publish something on this. Up to 10 milligrams a day. will not cause [01:26:40] physiological responses. So for most people, six milligrams max per day, buy a six [01:26:45] milligram, break it into four pieces if you want.
And then on days when you're like, I'm going to be on stage, [01:26:50] like I got to bring it, then you have another four milligrams to play with. Just never go above [01:26:55] ten and you're not going to get chronic muscle tension and all the weird stuff that comes from excessive nicotine. Do you agree? [01:27:00]
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, I think that's fair.
I think, again, everyone's, everyone's [01:27:05] biology is different, but I think that sounds, yeah, pretty safe.
Speaker: From a shamanic [01:27:10] side, I've also been trained to administer hape. You know, you blow the [01:27:15] That tobacco stuff up someone's nose, that's different, I'll do that too. For [01:27:20] journeying and But that's not a regular thing.
No, it's not. With certain psychedelics, um, [01:27:25] nicotine is a very potent enhancer of the experience. Yeah, that's right. I'll go over it for that. [01:27:30] Tanya, thank you for making the long trip from New York to Austin to be on the show. [01:27:35] The information you shared is really life changing. It is not in the [01:27:40] world of biohacking, but it is in the world of chronic illness.
And I just love it that [01:27:45] you are a biohacking, longevity, mast cell expert, chronic illness, but [01:27:50] like by any means necessary kind of physician and healer. And so, you know, my, my [01:27:55] compliments and respect. Thank you.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker: How can people find out more about your clinic? [01:28:00]
Speaker 3: So I have a website, uh, drtoniadempsey.
[01:28:05] com Instagram, drtoniadempseymd And [01:28:10] Facebook, drtoniadempsey So I do, I put out a lot of content I have, I have my own [01:28:15] podcast now Oh,
Speaker 5: I didn't even know
Speaker 3: Called Mast Cell Matters How come
Speaker 5: you
Speaker 3: haven't [01:28:20] even invited me on there? I was just gonna, I was just gonna invite you My feelings are hurt, oh my god You made me do it, but [01:28:25] we've got to get you on.
I'd be
Speaker: very happy to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it would be great. Um, so Maslow Matters, which is on [01:28:30] all the podcast platforms and, uh, so we've been doing that for a year. Um, [01:28:35] and I, again, just, I'm just trying to get, um, all this information out there for people. I'm going to be doing [01:28:40] masterclasses. I have some coming up, writing a book, uh, lots of stuff going [01:28:45] on I'm excited about.
Speaker: When, uh, for people who can't click the link [01:28:50] that we put here in the notes, it's T A N I A and then D E M P S [01:28:55] E Y because you can spell Tanya 15 different ways. I know from, from signing 10, 000 books, [01:29:00] I've spelled every name wrong. So I just always ask. So there you go, guys. Tanya.
Speaker 3: And the, and the clinic is in [01:29:05] Westchester County, New York, uh, Purchase, and it's called AIM Center for Personalized Medicine.
[01:29:10] A
Speaker: I M?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay. Beautiful. And we'll put all those, those links on the website [01:29:15] and all. All right. Thank you again.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you [01:29:20] for having me. This was so much fun.
Speaker: See you next time on the Human [01:29:25] Upgrade podcast.