Speaker: [00:00:00] This episode is recorded here in Austin, Texas. Not in my [00:00:05] studio because the air conditioning broke and this is Texas. So I'm downstairs where the [00:00:10] second air conditioner is not broken. So hopefully you'll like the set because we just made it up [00:00:15] for you. So you do work with death. Yes. [00:00:20] You call your company doula givers.
Speaker 2: I do. [00:00:25] Isn't that about being born, not about dying? Yeah, there's, there's so many [00:00:30] similarities with helping a spirit, a soul come into this world. Like there is [00:00:35] leaving this world. But yeah, you think about it, we're doing everything to help those babies come in. Sometimes we're preparing before [00:00:40] we're even pregnant.
We're not doing nearly the same, probably [00:00:45] nothing, for us helping souls leave this world. And it's just as beautiful and sacred and [00:00:50] important to know what to do and to help them out of this world.
Speaker: People spend [00:00:55] usually nine months planning the perfect birth. How long do people spend [00:01:00] planning the perfect death?
Speaker 2: I'm going to try and rephrase that a little bit. So it's zero for that. And they [00:01:05] probably spend not more than nine months on trying to outrun it. [00:01:10]
Speaker: Ooh.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: So you're saying don't die. Might be running [00:01:15] away from something.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that we're told, you know, whether it's conscious or [00:01:20] subconscious or both to, you know, Push death as far away as you can to try and [00:01:25] beat it.
I mean, think about the terminology we use in this world as medical professionals. He lost his [00:01:30] battle with cancer. When somebody has a terminal diagnosis, doctors will say, I'm sorry, [00:01:35] there's no more I can do for you when there's so much we can do for people.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: So have [00:01:40] we inadvertently set up this battle that is not a battle number one, but that is [00:01:45] impossible to win if it's a battle.
Speaker: Reminds me of something Mother Teresa [00:01:50] once said during the Vietnam War, some protesters said, Will you join us in a march against the war? [00:01:55] And she said, No, what do you mean? And she said, I'll join a march [00:02:00] for peace, but not against the war, because when you fight against something, it just makes it stronger.[00:02:05]
So you're saying something similar.
Speaker 2: I'm saying something very similar. And I want to tell you, [00:02:10] there's a very gray area that, and that's why quality of life to each of us is so [00:02:15] important to understand me subjectively, what benchmark that is. And when that time comes where [00:02:20] there's no more quality to my life, am I willing to go through more surgeries to go [00:02:25] through medications like chemotherapy at that point, when there's no possibility [00:02:30] of reversing that process, that's a very dangerous place.
And if we don't. Think about this [00:02:35] ahead of time and we start going into a default and down that road. It can cause more pain, [00:02:40] it can cause more suffering than I've ever seen, and then that person will have their end of life no matter what [00:02:45] anyway.
Speaker: I couldn't agree more and it does require a very different [00:02:50] view of death and I've, in my most recent book, I talked more about consciousness [00:02:55] and spirituality and we've talked to different guests about this kind of a topic, [00:03:00] but the idea that you should spend all of your money and all of your [00:03:05] ability to suffer in the last little while just to avoid dying.
Why do [00:03:10] humans do that? Seems like it's kind of universal
Speaker 2: fear.
Speaker: What are we afraid of? [00:03:15]
Speaker 2: Good question. So when, and I, and I mean this, it's not a joke when I, so I [00:03:20] come from a medical family. So I was very aware growing up. My father was a doctor. My mother worked in hospital [00:03:25] administration. So I heard about people dying.
I heard about people being very sick. So it was very natural [00:03:30] to me. And when I got into the hospital. That's my background when people were [00:03:35] dying, the fear of death, the running in the opposite direction, I could not believe [00:03:40] how palpable it was. And what happens when we're fearful? We're paralyzed, right? We can't make any [00:03:45] concrete decisions and anything.
And the amount of suffering that I [00:03:50] saw in addition. So saying goodbye to somebody in their physical body is going to be hard. No matter what. 10, [00:03:55] 000 times more challenging when we're not prepared and we're running in the opposite direction. And I said, I'm [00:04:00] What is this fear? There must be something awful that's happening on the other end.
So I did my homework. I [00:04:05] went down all these rabbit holes and guess what? Of course, there's absolutely nothing. In fact, [00:04:10] I sometimes was privileged to see the most beautiful end of lives. [00:04:15] And I thought if people could see that, if they knew end of life could be like that, they'd never be afraid. [00:04:20] So I'm going to tell them.
Speaker: Wow. Yeah. Don't people get [00:04:25] triggered when you say death can be beautiful?
Speaker 2: Sometimes it depends where they're coming from, but the thing is, when you [00:04:30] started out today and you said, you know, you work in death, you know, it came up for me. I work in [00:04:35] life. I know, but I just want to say that because here's the thing when we're talking about it.
They're not [00:04:40] exclusive of one another. Yeah, and it's the most life affirming conversation because when we [00:04:45] talk about death, we're talking about what is this journey? What am I here for? [00:04:50] What's the important things? What am I not doing? You know that we get to and that really again, [00:04:55] I feel like gets us to the point.
pearls of what this human [00:05:00] experience is that we've been gifted, and that makes me have a whole different lens on. [00:05:05]
Speaker: Who or what benefits when people die in pain and suffering
Speaker 2: so there's [00:05:10] different levels of suffering. Yeah, so there's yeah So there's you know, the the physical body, but I [00:05:15] also want to point this out, which is very interesting at the end of life [00:05:20] Emotional pain that has not been processed.
So emotional things that we've not You know put [00:05:25] into perspective found forgiveness worked on because we can store things away. Oh,
Speaker 3: yeah. [00:05:30]
Speaker 2: Everything bubbles to the top and really can present in physical pain. I've had people, I remember this [00:05:35] one woman, she was in the hospital writhing in pain. She had so much [00:05:40] medication on board that would have killed like three horses.
[00:05:45] And she had emotional pain that was coming up that the narcotic would not touch. And I remember this one [00:05:50] point coming into her room and she had her eyes closed at this point. She said, I'm going home. [00:05:55] With a smile. And I just said, there's no place like home. Somehow she had been able to [00:06:00] reconcile some of those things, but the suffering is important.
And I think this [00:06:05] leads into doing our work, making sense of things and [00:06:10] Let's just be very honest. As a collective, many people are not, [00:06:15] we're not doing our work, right? So we're playing in this small space, we're living in fear, we [00:06:20] have unresolved issues that we've had, and it all starts to bubble at the end.
Now, that [00:06:25] space of having them worked out, and this is where forgiveness plays a huge role at the end of [00:06:30] life, end in life, when this stuff is, there's a point in the journey, if I may, where we're [00:06:35] all holistic beings, physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. As people's physical [00:06:40] body. So I've been sitting at the bedside of over a thousand people as physical diminishing, the physical body's [00:06:45] diminishing, their spiritual body is growing.
There's one point that they get this higher wisdom organically, [00:06:50] that they're able to look back at their life's journey of over different things that have happened. And they [00:06:55] literally see. Say this Dave, like overnight or over a nap, they go, I get it now. I understand why that happened. [00:07:00] And it could be things that they've been holding onto anger for 30, 40 years.
They're like, [00:07:05] I understand why that happened. It was trying to provide me this, this [00:07:10] opportunity for growth. So instead of being resentful and angry about it, they're able to forgive if it was [00:07:15] something that happened to them or forgive it was something that level of suffering before we break [00:07:20] open to that moment is incredibly important because yeah.[00:07:25]
Well, it is not just for us, but for people left behind.
Speaker: You have this unique [00:07:30] perspective of having been with more than a thousand people when they're dying, [00:07:35] you know, when I do decide to go hopefully somewhere 180 years or [00:07:40] longer. I just want to die at a time and by a method of my choice. Um, I like the idea [00:07:45] of dying where there aren't any things recording it.
And then doing a Tibetan sky [00:07:50] burial, where they chop you into pieces and feed you to these giant crows and ravens that live in Tibet. [00:07:55] And I wanted to do that because it would just mess with all the computerized record keeping in the worst way. [00:08:00] And wouldn't that be kind of a fun legacy? Just be like, we don't know what happened, ah!
But of course everyone knows, they [00:08:05] just can't prove it. Yeah. So.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: What's the best way to pass? Is it in your [00:08:10] sleep? Is it, You know, with the Swedish bikini team, is it [00:08:15] praying, is it on the side of a mountain, like, is there a path that creates the best [00:08:20] death?
Speaker 2: I think that the most beautiful end of life, just even organically, without the [00:08:25] education and work that we do now, have been people who've lived fully.
Who were [00:08:30] able to say when their time came. Okay. And I feel like that [00:08:35] sense of a good death can happen physically anywhere because it's more of an energy [00:08:40] that's been brought in.
Speaker 3: But
Speaker 2: that is really the case. So for most people, they say death is the number one fear. And [00:08:45] for most of my patients, it wasn't the fear of death.
You know what it was? It was the regret [00:08:50] It was the fear that I thought I had more time and [00:08:55] now it's up and I didn't live the way and what I was supposed to be doing here. So that [00:09:00] heavy regret is there for people who knew that life would come to an end as we know it in [00:09:05] this journey and who lived with the gratitude every day of that awareness [00:09:10] and presence.
When the day come that came, they were able to say, okay, [00:09:15] and be able to be present with loved ones. And, um, It's such a spiritual [00:09:20] journey because there is something that happens at the end of life where time is you and I know it the [00:09:25] clock time disappears where there's energy in the room like when there's that [00:09:30] loving vibration that almost dissolves the walls in the room that it's [00:09:35] such a beautiful thing you're really at the veil and that can be done and I've seen it in a hospital room [00:09:40] not ideal by the way I don't I don't, you know, generally
Speaker: should stay out of hospitals if you want to [00:09:45] live or die.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they're also very noisy and beepy, but I did, but I had seen it and it's, and [00:09:50] it could be anywhere. And so for me, you know, resonating with nature and love [00:09:55] and, you know, your pets and just being present in that moment. And then again, I'm told [00:10:00] many times by patients that loved ones who have already died are back in the room with them.[00:10:05]
And I'm told they're there to help cross you over. How beautiful is that?
Speaker: All the [00:10:10] different lineages I've studied with teach similar things like that, you [00:10:15] know, whether it's, you know, Christianity, they're, you know, in heaven waiting for you, but more of [00:10:20] the shamanic and some of the Eastern traditions. Oh, no, they, they just show up.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Do you [00:10:25] see them?
Speaker 2: There were two times. One was, you're going to get me very emotional because it was an [00:10:30] emotional moment in the oncology unit. And again, I think this goes back to us [00:10:35] denying that death will be a part of our journey and that dangerous space. There was a man, he was in his [00:10:40] 80s and he was, you know, on chemotherapy and his blood levels were very, very low.
And I [00:10:45] remember being his nurse that day and I, he did not have a DNR, so he did not have a do not resuscitate. [00:10:50] And I knew something was going to happen, and I, his daughter was there, and his wife was there, and it just wasn't good. [00:10:55] And we got the doctor to get a DNR, but I remember walking in to do a check on him.
[00:11:00] And when I was in the room with him, he took a breath and looked up in this [00:11:05] frozen look, And I believe he had a massive heart attack at that moment, and I [00:11:10] saw his body leave him. Now, here's the thing that was happening. It was around lunchtime. His daughter [00:11:15] and his wife walked in. They said, What's happening?
What's happening? And I said, Come tell him you love him. Yeah. So they [00:11:20] were able to sit with him as he holds his hands. Now, his son, soul had left, but he was, [00:11:25] his body was still taking those last breaths. So they were able to be in that moment with him. And it [00:11:30] happened another time as well. Where I would, this man was transitioning and we were actually [00:11:35] cleaning him and turning him and all of a sudden there, and I said,
Speaker 3: I
Speaker 2: said, [00:11:40] wow, yeah, there, there, I saw it.
Um, yeah. And again, come and tell [00:11:45] him you love him. And so, yeah, I've been able to see some of that, but I've also been able to hear from [00:11:50] my patients. What they're seeing.
Speaker: What do they see?
Speaker 2: There was a woman. I think [00:11:55] the most impactful story was this woman who was my age at the time. She was [00:12:00] 44 years old. She came into the oncology unit.
She had gallbladder cancer. She was doing [00:12:05] chemotherapy. So it brittled her bones. And this was I was doing a Friday, Saturday and Sunday shift Friday. She came [00:12:10] in because she had a fractured hip from the chemotherapy. And by Saturday at the end of the [00:12:15] shift, she, I moved her from a bedside commode, which is a bedside toilet, right back to the bed, and she was short of [00:12:20] breath.
Nothing was wrong with her lungs. And so we both took that moment in, it's like, [00:12:25] we knew something was really wrong. And they did studies that night, and they found that she had blown a pulmonary [00:12:30] emboli to her lung, a blood clot, not a good thing. The next day I came in, got report from [00:12:35] the nurse. By the way, they said that Maureen said when she found out she had a pulmonary embolism, she said, [00:12:40] Suzanne's going to be really mad about this.
She knew how much I loved her, which I thought was really beautiful. And it [00:12:45] was, but it was also really serious. So Sunday in the hospital, doctors are on [00:12:50] fragmented shifts. They kind of come in, um, when they want. So I remember all day she was breathing heavy. [00:12:55] The doctor comes in around three o'clock. I had a habit of doing rounds with doctors so I could hear exactly what they're [00:13:00] saying.
We walked through the doorway of Maureen's hospital room and [00:13:05] Maureen says to the doctor, I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me. And I turned to look at the [00:13:10] doctor's face and tears were coming down the doctor's face. Maureen was telling us she was going to die [00:13:15] in that moment before any of us called it.
But this is what happened. So they 11 o'clock on [00:13:20] Sunday night. Maureen woke up from a nap and said, get my sister. I'm [00:13:25] transitioning with all the excitement that you would hear from an eight year old child's going to Disney world. Her sister [00:13:30] was in the lounge. She came and she goes, I'm transitioning. Now, what did she see?
What did [00:13:35] she know that not only removed her fear.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: But had her so [00:13:40] excited of where she was going and then they said at about five o'clock in the morning she passed and the room was [00:13:45] like flooded with golden yellow over the river sun. It was just [00:13:50] that's just one of the stories. I mean, we have hundreds of the same ones.[00:13:55]
Wow. Yeah. Talk about changing perspective.[00:14:00]
Speaker: The first time I came [00:14:05] across hospice care, I didn't know anything about it. My um, [00:14:10] My grandfather, who was an atheist his entire life, [00:14:15] a really advanced scientist at Los Alamos [00:14:20] National Labs in physical chemistry, he [00:14:25] had an autoimmune kidney condition that just came up and went into the hospital [00:14:30] and they told him, you know, if you work really hard, you might be able to be at home on the couch [00:14:35] and do dialysis twice a week.
He thought about it and said, I want this. And he said, call the [00:14:40] family. I'm going on the wine diet. And so everyone came, [00:14:45] and he had, you know, seven kids, and so he was surrounded by loved ones and a [00:14:50] hospice care worker. This is a family of non believers, [00:14:55] right? So lots of scientists, this can't be, but somehow, The [00:15:00] hospice worker at the time was able to create that sense of peace and calm that chilled [00:15:05] out even hyper rationalist people and we took him about three [00:15:10] days, but he passed like very gently surrounded by, by loved ones [00:15:15] and it's the quintessential good death.
Yes. And I [00:15:20] remember. How the hospice worker had like Navy SEAL level [00:15:25] therapist skills to deal with a whole family who are all having their buttons pushed [00:15:30] by death because it pushes their own mortality and all the family dynamics and all that stuff. And ever since then, I've [00:15:35] looked at hospice care workers as some of the most compassionate, some of the most [00:15:40] kind, but also some of the most skilled therapists that are out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I [00:15:45] agree.
Speaker: So how do you teach people to do that?
Speaker 2: I don't know that you can teach it. I feel like, [00:15:50] you know, it's something that really we kind of come in with, but I do want to say when you say everyone's buttons being [00:15:55] pushed because it does. And this is really what we want these conversations to be for [00:16:00] is that to acknowledge that somebody is going to have their end of life is not when it's in front [00:16:05] of us.
That's not the first time we should be there. I remember raising my son and, you know, he was very close [00:16:10] with my parents. And there were times that, you know, he's like, Oh, I don't want to go to lunch today with them. And I just would [00:16:15] say that, you know, one day this won't even be an option. I'm not saying that you have to, I just want you to [00:16:20] know the fragility of the time we have.
You know, [00:16:25] with loved ones and also with this day, today, and his, he is such a [00:16:30] wonderful, compassionate, connected, I mean, that was part of his journey, but again, [00:16:35] if we deny that death is a part of the journey, so, our pets die, grandparents [00:16:40] die, even peers die, why are we not, one of the best things we can do for our [00:16:45] children, we can do for our children.
Is have them know that death is a natural part of the life's journey and not to be afraid right now. We're setting [00:16:50] them up to run the other way to be fearful. And then of course, everyone's stuff is going to bubble to the [00:16:55] top. And these skilled hospice nurses, as you say, are dealing with different experiences for each person, [00:17:00] but it shouldn't be that place.
It should be done earlier so that we can really have a rich [00:17:05] journey with one another, with that forgiveness, with the learning, and then create this loving [00:17:10] ceremony and ritual helping this person that we love out of this world.
Speaker: If you could [00:17:15] redesign the death experience in society, what would it look like?
Speaker 2: Let it [00:17:20] be our greatest teacher about how to live. Let it be our greatest [00:17:25] teacher about how to live from day one. So [00:17:30] remove the fear of it by telling the truth about it, but then bringing in the wisdom. And how does that [00:17:35] apply to you? What is your, what is important for you? What is your heart saying? What [00:17:40] are these hurts that we've been through?
What can you do with them? How can we forgive and release them? So you, [00:17:45] not for the other person, so that you can live in your greatest [00:17:50] journey that you are here for and that we're all connected. So there's a few things that end of life patients would say, [00:17:55] and I've worked with people from all over the world.
They'd say the same things. We're all [00:18:00] connected to this one unconditional loving energy. There is no judgment. There is no death. [00:18:05] And that everything that happened to us happened for a reason to help us to grow. [00:18:10] Now, when those lessons come through, when we look at that. If we knew [00:18:15] we were all connected, not just to each other, but to the animals, to the planet, would we be [00:18:20] behaving and doing the things we're doing today?
I'm going to say no. If we knew that [00:18:25] the ego part of the human part is the fearful wants to keep us separate so that there's [00:18:30] one winner and one loser. If we taught about the soul part of us, the being [00:18:35] part to listen to that, but also that it can be It's your highest directional. It will put you [00:18:40] on your path to purpose.
And if I knew that we were all connected, would I ever want anything [00:18:45] more than just love and compassion for you?
Speaker: That's beautiful. You ever [00:18:50] read Carlos Castaneda? I
Speaker 2: have not.
Speaker: So this is a [00:18:55] famous set of early books about shamanic experiences in the West. A guy from L. [00:19:00] A., hippie, goes down to Mexico and, you know, meets a shaman and [00:19:05] goes through.
Pretty intense shamanic initiation in the jungles is one of the [00:19:10] early accounts of psychedelic use for strange spiritual states, and it's [00:19:15] a series of books and fascinating stuff in the final lesson [00:19:20] where Don Juan, the teacher, is teaching Carlos [00:19:25] Castaneda about what's really going on. They go for a walk on this road in a remote part [00:19:30] of Mexico, and the shaman does something, and all of a [00:19:35] sudden, this horrifying reality that there are energetic beings [00:19:40] that feed off of human suffering becomes clear to to [00:19:45] Carlos, and he describes it in beautiful language, but it's this [00:19:50] incredibly, like, horrifying, like, how can this be and then, Uh, [00:19:55] in, in the book, he flings himself off a cliff [00:20:00] and wakes up 600 miles away in his bed the next morning, completely sore [00:20:05] and having no idea how he got there.
So there's all kinds of mystical stuff in the book, and it's [00:20:10] maybe fiction, but it's mostly nonfiction. It's, it's fascinating and [00:20:15] very esoteric and out there. Many of my spiritual teachers have [00:20:20] said, well, you know, when people are doing this deep work around resolving fear of death, [00:20:25] around deep forgiveness work, around deep inner work, the things that feed [00:20:30] on us don't like it when we get up off the table and they mess with us.
[00:20:35] It's a part of being human. It, and so many people have these spiritual [00:20:40] experiences. And they never talk about it because people, they're worried people think they're crazy or [00:20:45] something. From where I sit, if you don't talk about the things you see, you're [00:20:50] crazy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I remember there was this one little boy, and [00:20:55] again, you can imagine, so, our little masters, right?
So people that sometimes leave [00:21:00] us earlier when in their younger years, they're teaching everyone around them. And this boy [00:21:05] had a brain tumor. And I remember coming as his hospice nurse and he was already paralyzed. It was hitting [00:21:10] his brainstem and he was a small thing. And I really wanted to build trust and be there for his [00:21:15] family.
Two things that were so interesting that happened that he had a little brother who was three. So he [00:21:20] was five. And I was having this meeting with the family and the family. The father was [00:21:25] there, the mother was there and the social worker was there and we're having this meeting and this little boy is on the, [00:21:30] on the couch with his head on a pillow and during the meeting, I didn't know he had a little [00:21:35] brother.
This little boy ran into the house, ran like this. [00:21:40] Kay climbed up me the whole time that he's jumping on me. His father's like, that's not mommy. That's not mommy His [00:21:45] mother was tall and blonde, too This little kid just went on and just glued on me like [00:21:50] this Held on and he's like that's not he was embarrassed the father and this little [00:21:55] boy just looked up like this and just kind of Slid down me.
They know there was something in [00:22:00] knowing but what his brother did at the end was he whispered something to his mother? You could hardly hear him because [00:22:05] of his tumor and his mother said what and he said, I want to show her, meaning [00:22:10] me, my secret closet. And so, this is what I think was happening for [00:22:15] him.
He couldn't show me because he started crying because of the pain. When he died, and I told his grandmother [00:22:20] this, his grandmother said, I didn't know he had a secret closet. I think that there were people coming [00:22:25] in and out of that area of his bedroom that were helping to cross him over. And he [00:22:30] knew I got it.
Wow. So there was something that was so, and, and I have to tell you, this end [00:22:35] of life went so beautiful, if you can even say that, because of, you know, the intensity, [00:22:40] everything lined up for them that could have possibly helped it because we're not [00:22:45] working alone here.
Speaker: Yeah. I've, uh, I've seen multiple reports and some personal [00:22:50] experiences of, you know, ancestors showing up for babies when they're born or, you know, when they're [00:22:55] young children.
Seems like until they're about five, kids can see stuff and they remember stuff and then they [00:23:00] just forget.
Speaker 2: I think if we could go like on a big vision, I think that like looking at [00:23:05] what is the life's journey about, I think it's finding our way back to [00:23:10] reawakening to the truth of who we are. We have it when we come in.
Speaker 3: We
Speaker 2: have it when we [00:23:15] leave. And we have it when we've been there. You talked about suffering today, [00:23:20] and we have it when there are traumatic moments in our life that have deep suffering, [00:23:25] deep loss, loss of a job, an illness that takes away what we've [00:23:30] defined as us and we break open. Now, people at the end of life, and I didn't understand this [00:23:35] when I was, you know, A young nurse, they would say that cancer is the best thing that ever happened to me.[00:23:40]
And I'm thinking, what do they mean? And they would say, I know why I got that cancer. That's [00:23:45] even more powerful. But saying I know why that cancer is the best thing that happened is because what [00:23:50] they felt defined them, the way they look, their job you know, their role, whatever it was, [00:23:55] was all gone now.
And they found themselves. And they found themselves. It was always [00:24:00] there. So I often think of when we little kids, we say, you know, one of the first things we teach them is where's your [00:24:05] belly button, right? And they go like this and we say, yeah, where's your center? [00:24:10] And that five years old, if you start to lose it and we start to get those hurts and then it's finding our [00:24:15] way back.
And then hopefully we can find that way back and crack that open before we get to the [00:24:20] end of life. Because this journey can be amazing if you allow it to be. Okay. [00:24:25]
Speaker: Other than gratitude and forgiveness, which we just talked about, what are the other [00:24:30] things that help people die in peace?
Speaker 2: Knowing they made a difference.
Knowing that they're [00:24:35] leaving the world better in whatever capacity that means because they were a part [00:24:40] of it and we all play a role right we all and again it's not these grand things and I want [00:24:45] people to really understand that for me, yes, you know, writing a book and doing things [00:24:50] that's that's a beautiful thing, but it's not It's not really those.
It's how you choose to show up in the world every [00:24:55] single day and hold the frequency of love and the little things that you do, you know, [00:25:00] make a huge difference. That smile to someone on the street, a kind word, whatever it [00:25:05] is, can change everything. You want that sense of that you did make a [00:25:10] difference and you contributed to the journey to make it better before you leave.
And the [00:25:15] more that we can do that, obviously the better, but that really does give us a sense of, [00:25:20] okay, it was all my whole thing too for this. And I think this is a really great example. When I started this [00:25:25] work as a hospice nurse, creating the training that teaches families how to do [00:25:30] it. My whole thing was, if I help one family, it's a win because I really had a tall mountain to [00:25:35] climb.
And to this, to this moment, it's been over 350, 000 people, but I [00:25:40] still hold if I help one person change a perspective, reduce their [00:25:45] fear, it's a win. And we can all say if we just do one thing, and if we can do [00:25:50] multiple, even better.
Speaker: It's so amazing that you're sharing [00:25:55] that. I know so many influencers and people, [00:26:00] even Tony Robbins, great respect, been on his stage.
[00:26:05] And I'll say, you know, I want to feed a billion people. But when you put a number [00:26:10] on the number of people you help, It actually kind of lessens it because [00:26:15] there's no greater moral value in a teacher saying, I helped my students in my [00:26:20] first grade class for the time I was teaching. That is of exactly the same moral [00:26:25] merit as feeding a billion people.
It's like, if that's what you're there to do and you did it, it's not [00:26:30] the magnitude, it's like the depth, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think one of the things about life mastery that's [00:26:35] really important in understanding is to follow this. Follow this heart conscious and don't be [00:26:40] attached to the outcome.
Speaker 4: There you go.
That's the hardest spiritual ego thing, [00:26:45] but it's
Speaker 2: the key, right? So, so that helping one person allowed me to [00:26:50] have such momentum, right? That I really love because I know I made a difference, but also [00:26:55] I wake up every day and do a meditation. And the intention is setting the frequency, being grateful, and [00:27:00] also just show me where I'm supposed to go.
And I am not attached to what that is. [00:27:05] Or where that goes, because I know that It's so much wiser, the [00:27:10] higher consciousness that I can't even conceive. And also I'm not supposed to be attached [00:27:15] to it. I'm just supposed to show up wherever I'm called.
Speaker: I've often meditated with [00:27:20] the, like, please use me today.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: And [00:27:25] it's, uh, it's a very powerful practice.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And
Speaker: it's, I've never talked about this on the show, which is kind of [00:27:30] surprising. I got one of those similar, um, experiences where you're like, oh, you just know what you're here to [00:27:35] do.
Speaker 3: Um,
Speaker: There's really only one person that [00:27:40] I am supposed to help.
I just wasn't sure what it was, so I'm like, I'll just help everyone. [00:27:45] Literally, that's what I'm doing. Yeah, it's really beautiful. Let's work on teaching people something that's [00:27:50] really hard to use words to describe. All the good meditation states, I use science and electrodes to teach [00:27:55] them. After I did enough of the 40 years in training, this kind of emerged.
So when I want to [00:28:00] tap into that inner knowing that like, you know, what, what am I supposed to do? [00:28:05] What's the reality without thinking about it? For me, the experience of it, it actually, it's, it's like [00:28:10] up here into the left. And so I just kind of like, I guess I'll go [00:28:15] inward, kind of like become centered in my heart, and then I just kind of put my [00:28:20] awareness, but not my vision, up here, and then I know.
Right? Okay. And if I need to [00:28:25] solve a weird medical biohacking thing for someone and nothing works for 20 years, I'm like, [00:28:30] It's that. And then, oh my God, it worked. And like, it wasn't me. It was an inner knowing. [00:28:35] How do you tap into your inner knowing?
Speaker 2: Okay, so it's from, from a nurse [00:28:40] background. I really love it because the body again, you're a human being and it's really designed that way.
You have a [00:28:45] sympathetic nervous system, a parasympathetic nervous system. These are all correlated with either the human part of [00:28:50] the being
Speaker 3: part.
Speaker 2: So when we're trying to connect with the being part of us, that higher [00:28:55] wisdom, how do we get it? connected to the parasympathetic, right? With intention, some deep [00:29:00] breaths, go into your heart space, gratitude, presence.
What am I [00:29:05] grateful for? So really opening up that love, sending love out, bringing it in. Now [00:29:10] you're in that space. Now you can think in terms, and I tend to [00:29:15] flow, not push, meaning that I try to empty out. And [00:29:20] allow the guidance to come to come in. Now, here's a way to benchmark it for [00:29:25] people. If you feel you're being guided and you're not sure if it's the ego guiding you or your [00:29:30] higher consciousness guiding you, here's the test.
First of all, how does your body feel? If you [00:29:35] are anxious about it, if you're worried about it, if you're, that is not the being part that is [00:29:40] ego.
Speaker: That's the keep me safe, keep me safe ego. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And that's like, I'm not doing it fast enough. If someone else is going to get it, you can [00:29:45] feel that. If you feel expansive, if you feel like you're almost breathing [00:29:50] air for the first time, if you feel at peace that almost allows you, and I've had people [00:29:55] say this, when I've become a do the giver, when I found this, I started crying.
When [00:30:00] I heard the webinar on how to care for someone who's dying, I started crying because it was [00:30:05] so aligned with, like, my being or what I was supposed to do. That [00:30:10] expansiveness, that feeling like you're part of something that's greater, that's your guidance [00:30:15] system. So again, start with your breaths. And this is what I really love the work that you're doing [00:30:20] about human upgrade is that when you upgrade the human physical [00:30:25] part, you are upgrading and connecting with the higher frequency.
And the more we can do [00:30:30] that, watch out guys, it is going to be a miraculous change. Anyone who
Speaker: [00:30:35] starts biohacking, they're going to become a longevity person and a consciousness [00:30:40] person because the better your cells work, the more conscious you become.
Speaker 2: They can't, they're not separate.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: [00:30:45] Right. And so whether you realize it or not, you are lightening up.
You are becoming more enlightened in [00:30:50] your being. And that is the key.
Speaker: Don't give away the secret plan. Sorry. [00:30:55] You're totally right.
Speaker 2: It's just so beautiful, but it's so beautiful. Because aren't [00:31:00] we all seeking that, right? Of course. We all want to be happy.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you all can be if we're [00:31:05] able to understand how it works, but then do the work, right?
And it's not heavy work. [00:31:10] Do the forgiveness work. That's probably your biggest transformational tool. Make sure that you're putting [00:31:15] nutrients and things that are good and being gentle and kind and, and contributing on a daily [00:31:20] basis.
Speaker: And if you're looking for that forgiveness work if you read heavily [00:31:25] meditated, and guys, it's not going to change my life if you do or don't buy the book, not in [00:31:30] any way shape, but it might change yours.
And there's the eight step process I developed over 10 [00:31:35] years with electrodes measuring the highest performing people in the world to know how [00:31:40] to turn on forgiveness reliably. But the lesson from all of this [00:31:45] is forgiveness is a feeling in the body. is not a thought. So [00:31:50] for me, I, I would go through some steps the way you're talking about.
[00:31:55] And I realized you can replay any sensation your body's ever felt. So [00:32:00] all you have to do is get one clear, direct [00:32:05] experience of authentic forgiveness through to your bones. And it's, it's [00:32:10] a Profound spiritual change of state, you just have to feel it one time [00:32:15] and then you can replay it anytime you want to.
And so when I want to tap into [00:32:20] whatever kind of intuitive knowing there is, I just replay the state and I'm good at replaying [00:32:25] it because I've taught myself with a computer to dial in on it. Um, and I think that's [00:32:30] why. Um, this sort of like, huh, I'm not sure. Let me just feel into that. And [00:32:35] then you're like, well, no, I'm pretty darn sure.
Let's, let's validate that with some studies. And you're like, oh my gosh, that's something we [00:32:40] never thought about. But that skill, it is gratitude and then forgiveness [00:32:45] over and over.
Speaker 2: If you just do those, not just those two things, [00:32:50] a life mastery. When I was in. Spontaneous recovery. So there's two things about [00:32:55] forgiveness.
They've done studies on people who've had these like radical remissions from stage four cancer and forgiveness played a [00:33:00] role in that. Right. And then when I was in a temple in Thailand, there was this [00:33:05] incredible temple where people would go to have their end of lives. And I'd be sitting in circles [00:33:10] with people who were dying family members.
They had a four point way that they did their therapy. [00:33:15] One was taking out all the sugar, right. And just being plant based. Number two was meditation. [00:33:20] Three was yoga. And four was forgiveness.
Speaker 3: And [00:33:25]
Speaker 2: I heard people, there was this one man there, he was 32 years old and he was dying of pancreatic cancer. [00:33:30] He said being in this temple was the happiest that he's ever been in, in his life.[00:33:35]
And it was because of the forgiveness, because he was able to release. And even though he was [00:33:40] at the end of this journey, he was able to find the lightness of being, the [00:33:45] levity. Getting rid of the boulder. Wow.
Speaker: I set about [00:33:50] learning from different masters. I'm starting in my twenties and I went to [00:33:55] Mount Kailash, which is the holiest mountain in the world.
And for Buddhists [00:34:00] and people, the Hindu faith and the bone faith, and it's, it's a pilgrimage to [00:34:05] get there, you know, five days in a four wheel drive. And I found out I [00:34:10] was there exactly 20 years after Victor Chan went to Mount Kailash, the Dalai Lama's best [00:34:15] friend who was on the show. And. It was very rugged.
And I was there not [00:34:20] during the peak season. It was actually below zero. And most people had left and almost froze [00:34:25] to death one time. But people go there to die. So [00:34:30] if you're living a holy existence, and you're very [00:34:35] spiritual, and of those faiths, you want to go there on this rugged, high altitude, [00:34:40] really treacherous trail, and die.
And thousands of people go to this place to [00:34:45] die. My question for you is, Are there places on the planet [00:34:50] where it's better to die than others?
Speaker 2: I think that setting a sacred [00:34:55] space and when we're not preparing for end of life, we are so missing this moment [00:35:00] Because families don't know what to do. They don't know how they're racing against it It's happening very [00:35:05] quickly And when you can set a sacred space for your loved one and that could be just dim [00:35:10] lighting quiet background music bringing in that, you know that You [00:35:15] solitude frequency of love of energy.
Are there places? I [00:35:20] think that there probably are, but I don't think you need to go there to have a beautiful life. In [00:35:25] fact, I know there's not because I've seen it before. But what is important to you? And if we [00:35:30] think about it ahead of time, like I just resonate with obviously nature. So being in an [00:35:35] ocean environment and some people want to be in the mountains having I Not resorts, but end [00:35:40] of life resorts or end of life spaces that are gorgeous and sacred.
We [00:35:45] have a vision of doing a doula house for, you know, the nursing home system and the aging population. [00:35:50] We are, we have a crisis upon us, but why can't we make these holistic, beautiful [00:35:55] places where people can come live, have their golden years and also have their end of life [00:36:00] surrounded by love and the vibration of what we're talking about.[00:36:05]
Speaker: There's an [00:36:10] emerging trend towards having birth centers where there's medical, medical care, but at [00:36:15] least there's soft lighting and we bring our children into the world gently. My, my very first [00:36:20] book was called the better baby book. It's about preconception and birth and how to set that up because [00:36:25] frankly, you want to live a long time, have a healthy mother and father before you're conceived and you have an unfair advantage.[00:36:30]
And there's thousands of babies who wouldn't have been born without that [00:36:35] book. And. When you have the ability to deliver your child at [00:36:40] home or in a place that is at least comfortable and ideally [00:36:45] sanctified It makes for a different experience even a different life and given [00:36:50] that birth and death are so related It's time that there are hospice centers [00:36:55] though that are A little bit more chill than hospitals, aren't there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's not many. And of [00:37:00] course, again, it's about how we get paid. Everything you can kind of trace back to the money. They're not profitable. They don't [00:37:05] really work, but they are a better kind of energy than the hospital. [00:37:10] However, let's talk about that period of time. You said about a home birth and there used to be [00:37:15] something called a home funeral, right?
So people died at home, but. They [00:37:20] stayed at home for their viewing, for the funeral, for the family that bathed them, for people to [00:37:25] come in. And here's something that has been written in many different religions, is that the three [00:37:30] day process, and there's something I feel like that happens, that imprinting.
As soon as somebody has [00:37:35] their end of life, what, Directly happens after that time of death is [00:37:40] imprinted on how well that grief and bereavement is going to go today. Most families will say, [00:37:45] what do I do now? And call the funeral home and the funeral home can come in that body's whisked away. And they don't even know what just [00:37:50] happened.
If you slow down this time, they have said that the [00:37:55] healing that can take place in from this grief and this heaviness to [00:38:00] almost a celebratory. One woman described it [00:38:05] as bliss of love energy. Her, her son died. He was, this is in the book, her [00:38:10] son died. Who is 17 years old of a motorcycle accident. And he was an [00:38:15] amazing young man and everyone was just devastated.
They had the wherewithal to take him home [00:38:20] and have a three day home wake from the first day to the third day. People [00:38:25] were crying beside themselves a third day. They are in, they are singing songs. They are in [00:38:30] jubilation. What I think's happening there is that people describe feeling the [00:38:35] love of that person stronger than they may ever have.
before ever [00:38:40] in their life. So when that spirit is in its purest form and [00:38:45] is there, they're feeling that they know that yes, that person has [00:38:50] physically died, but they are there. And there's something that happens that they carry with them forever. [00:38:55]
Speaker: Wow. Mm hmm. It kind of reminds me of clamping the cord. So [00:39:00] when a baby's born vaginally, hospitals will [00:39:05] immediately clamp the cord and cut the cord, which starves the baby [00:39:10] of blood flow and connection that it would have had otherwise.
And a [00:39:15] doula or during a humbirth, you leave it until it stops pulsing [00:39:20] and then you gently create that, that, that disconnection that needs to [00:39:25] happen and the outcomes psychologically are very different. So [00:39:30] some things take time. And I guess the, the microwave instant [00:39:35] dinner. Concept applied to death and removing of a body maybe isn't the right way to do it.
Speaker 2: [00:39:40] It's not the right way to do it at all. I think, you know, you just said something so important. We are in the [00:39:45] human Doing not the human being present and this rushing and this [00:39:50] taking, you know Notes of how many people and how much reimbursement and how quickly can we move [00:39:55] things and how can we have it?
Has just killed this whole [00:40:00] experience
Speaker: So
Speaker 2: if someone's at
Speaker: home with or without hospice care, and if if [00:40:05] you're fortunate enough to have hospice care, you totally should do that. It's like you bring in a plumber if you have a leak, [00:40:10] bring in a hospice care worker if someone's dying because there's there's a skill to this.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker: [00:40:15] But do you have to notify the coroner, call the police or an ambulance and all that [00:40:20] stuff? Is there any law about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is a great question because, you know, again, yeah. I'm usually [00:40:25] racing from behind right now. Hopefully we're going to have that change. But if I'm there with families, I tell them, I [00:40:30] say, you know, don't rush this.
Don't just take this all in. Who else needs to [00:40:35] be here? Take as much time as you need. So it depends on the state that you live in, but up to [00:40:40] every state you get at least 24 hours. So what I do is courtesy is tell the families, [00:40:45] let the hospice nurse know that you'd like to keep the person at home for however long you can [00:40:50] and then find out in the state.
state. Again, I encourage families to make sure that they [00:40:55] don't miss this opportunity. So it's between 24 and 72 hours. Now [00:41:00] this is if hospice on board and there's many reasons to have hospice on board. If somebody [00:41:05] dies, even if they're 99 without hospice, it goes into, you do have to have the police come in [00:41:10] and it's actually treated like an investigation.
It is not a good thing at all. They have to just go [00:41:15] through what they do and it's just not.
Speaker: You could wait three days to call him still, right?
Speaker 2: Well, [00:41:20] I don't know if it's
Speaker: Who are they going to write the ticket to? Because it wasn't my job.
Speaker 2: Here's the [00:41:25] thing that I want you to know, and I'm going to give you a great resource.
Speaker: You
Speaker 2: own your debt. Exactly. So you own your [00:41:30] debt. And again, we talked a little bit about not giving our power away.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: We have [00:41:35] outsourced our elderly And outsourced our dead. And one of the things, you know, if you want [00:41:40] to say, the first thing that I say to people, and I think this is a really important statement, that almost shifts everything, is that [00:41:45] death is not a medical experience, it's a human one.
And when people are like, [00:41:50] oh, wait a minute, we're treating it like a medical one, we expect it. Doctors to [00:41:55] fix it. It's it's not fixable. It's to be supported. And so when we shift that [00:42:00] and again, you own your dead. So the National Home Funeral Alliance has all of the resources. But [00:42:05] yeah, you can keep your loved one home again.
If it's the if it's Texas and it's the middle of the [00:42:10] summer, you want to make sure you have some cooling things, but it's easy to do. And this is your loved [00:42:15] one. And this is one of the most important spaces to not rush [00:42:20] because you'll never get this opportunity back again.
Speaker: There are certain [00:42:25] traditions like in the, in Judaism, three days is [00:42:30] standard and someone's always with the body and the mirrors are covered and all that.
So I guess you could claim a [00:42:35] religious exemption.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you can do that, but again, like, do we have to claim anything except [00:42:40] for that this is my mom?
Speaker: That's only if they try to give you a ticket, because you waited three days. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't think they would give [00:42:45] you a ticket at all. If they do,
Speaker: fuck them.
I mean, seriously. Well,
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, you just reminded [00:42:50] me, I had this doula giver who was certified, she said, She was in the Midwest somewhere and she said, Suzanne, because of [00:42:55] what I learned from you, she said, my brother died and they call the state troopers. This [00:43:00] trooper came and they said, but we're going to keep them for a while.
And the trooper said, you can't keep them. They locked the state [00:43:05] trooper out of the house. Right. And she said, it was the best thing we did. They didn't get in trouble, but, [00:43:10] but she said, Suzanne, that was the most meaningful day and a half that we had with him. [00:43:15] And we weren't going to let him take, but the guy was like, wait a minute.
You need to really talk [00:43:20] about this ahead of time because this this is the meaning right? This is the [00:43:25] ceremony and this is what you Lawfully are allowed to have and [00:43:30] should have, but also the difference that it makes for this whole experience is transformative.
Speaker: [00:43:35] I love the way you said that. And from where I sit, the idea of [00:43:40] lawfully allowed to have doesn't exist.
Speaker 2: It doesn't exist.
Speaker: I'm allowed to have it because I'm alive. And if [00:43:45] someone tries to make a law that disagrees with that, I will ignore it. And everyone has the right to do [00:43:50] that. And of course, you look at consequences and all that sort of stuff. But the vast majority of [00:43:55] laws that are unjust or cause spiritual harm, when you ignore them, [00:44:00] good things happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they do. One to three days in every state to find what yours are. [00:44:05] And even people who someone, maybe it's a not planned end of life traumatic. If somebody dies, is [00:44:10] in a hospital, let's say there's an accident, you can take that loved one home.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: And you should [00:44:15] consider that because that can really slow everything down and allow you to bring some ritual and [00:44:20] ceremony into this moment, which you should be doing.
Speaker: If you [00:44:25] had a free coupon to have your body frozen in liquid nitrogen and cryopreserved in case someone could bring [00:44:30] you back from the dead, would you do it?
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker: Why not?
Speaker 2: Because I think that I'm [00:44:35] just living so fully, I hope to and intentionally, that [00:44:40] I'm open to the next part of what goes on and my next level [00:44:45] of service and whatever's meant for me.
And again, it goes back to where have [00:44:50] people been at that place of a good death? And it's really that they didn't miss the [00:44:55] life that we're living and given an opportunity each day.
Speaker: Because [00:45:00] I'm really active in the longevity movement. A good number of friends [00:45:05] have, you know, the wrist bracelet and special care to put them in liquid nitrogen.
I [00:45:10] have no interest in doing that. And I don't believe that my body is what, is what, [00:45:15] Holds my consciousness. So to me, I'm like, Oh, I'll get another antenna [00:45:20] later, but
Speaker 2: that's what I believe. And can I really, from what everyone's told me at the end of life [00:45:25] is that this is the hard part.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: This is the challenge
Speaker: of being in a body.
[00:45:30] Yeah. These things are very limited. What,
Speaker 2: what they're describing is almost indescribable. The [00:45:35] love, the joy. So I am going to show up fully all the time, but do I want [00:45:40] to preserve and come back? Not exactly. Whatever the plan is, is the plan.
Speaker: It's funny. Yeah. [00:45:45] Having been into the longevity, Uh, thing, [00:45:50] movement for 25 years now, uh, starting with a non profit in my mid [00:45:55] twenties because I'm like, wow, these people who are preventing their aging are giving me my energy and [00:46:00] health back.
So like I learned from, from my elders and [00:46:05] there would be no biohacking had it not been for that kind of experience. But, uh, [00:46:10] Maybe 20 percent of people in the longevity movement, even back then, were in this [00:46:15] radical, like, do not die at any cost. And then the rest of them were these, [00:46:20] like, really wise old people who were saying, I'm managing all my aspects of aging I [00:46:25] can, and, you know, we're gonna use coconut oil here because we saw the study, and they're very [00:46:30] mindful.
But they weren't resisting or fighting against death. [00:46:35] They might have fought against aging, but most of them didn't even see it that way. They're like, we're going to manage it, we're going to [00:46:40] do it the right way. And all of them had this like vibrant, glowing [00:46:45] energy that was different than you would see.
And there's like a dullness that can come as you age. It's like you're kind of, the [00:46:50] lights are dimming. Their lights were not dimming, even though their bodies were still aging. They just didn't age the same [00:46:55] way. But when they left, the vast majority of them, [00:47:00] Left in a place of peace. And as a young man, that was [00:47:05] such a powerful lesson to see the difference between like the, the anxiety ridden, [00:47:10] like I won't die.
And there's one conference. I'm not going to point fingers. I've spoken at all [00:47:15] the longevity things where it's very much like we're never going to die at any cost. And like, to me, that's [00:47:20] an anxiety vibe. Yes. And then there's other ones around, like, let's age as long as we choose. And [00:47:25] I'm just so in that camp.
Yeah. That a lot of the language I use around longevity and [00:47:30] biohacking is like, let's upgrade, let's enhance. And even when I went public and was on [00:47:35] all the TV shows saying, I'm going to live to at least 180, when we go deep, it's no, I'm [00:47:40] going to die at a time and by a method of my choosing. When I'm done, I'm done.
I have [00:47:45] no issues with that because being afraid of death ruins your life.
Speaker 2: Sure does. Yeah, it [00:47:50] does. So two things. If you almost look at this. journey, like the outfit of the day, if I may, this is what people [00:47:55] talk about. Well, I, yeah, I do want, I do want to put it like that. Cause I really want people to, to [00:48:00] step into this space.
This is the, the, outfit of the day that I've been given to [00:48:05] have this experience. This is just one stop on this bigger, vast [00:48:10] journey of learning. So that's a beautiful thing. Now, because we are living so very long, right? [00:48:15] Over the last hundred years, life expectancy, let's make that the best living we could [00:48:20] possibly do.
So I don't want to not. Be, you know, I don't want to prevent myself from having, [00:48:25] but sure want to be 75 playing tennis without knee pain, you know, and just enjoying life [00:48:30] and still contributing for as long as that is. Yes to that. Like, yeah, [00:48:35]
Speaker: as a hospice worker, you've taught Buddhists in Thailand [00:48:40] about death.
They have a lot of Buddhist knowledge and rituals about death. But you've also [00:48:45] sat with devout Christian monotheistic families. So how do you [00:48:50] handle the heaven, hell, God, atheist [00:48:55] reincarnation question when you're looking at someone passing over?
Speaker 2: Yeah. So [00:49:00] that's a really great question. So one of the things that I'll teach in do the givers and for people wanting to learn is that [00:49:05] you don't bring in your belief system.
into this space, meaning that if I'm [00:49:10] working with a family that is a Jewish family or something, somebody who practices different, [00:49:15] I want to know how I can, what their belief system is and support them. I'm not here to impose my [00:49:20] views on them. I'm here to do a practical, unconditional, loving three [00:49:25] stages of end of life.
However, people who know that you've been in this space for a long [00:49:30] time and they're frightened, we'll ask you many times, what do you believe? And this is something that struck [00:49:35] me right away. People who have practiced a certain religion or culture belief system their [00:49:40] whole life, at the end of life, it became more of a [00:49:45] spirituality, and that is so powerful to understand, and so beautiful,
Speaker: [00:49:50] yeah.
One of the fascinating areas of exploration is [00:49:55] around psychedelics and death and there are studies and I've all chopped around [00:50:00] psychedelics in the recent book, I'm a little more open about some of my practices, but you [00:50:05] give people in hospice, but at the beginning stages, a couple of grams of [00:50:10] mushrooms and their fear of death just evaporates.
It's like it turns on the [00:50:15] spiritual side of death so that they struggle less. So. Is that something you've [00:50:20] experienced?
Speaker 2: Yeah. So here's the thing about this. There is such a similarity between what I have [00:50:25] seen at the end of life and patients are saying near death experience studies and [00:50:30] the studies are doing with the psilocybin to reduce fear at end of life.
All of them say the same thing. There is no [00:50:35] death that it's all about love. And what what I'm told happens on the [00:50:40] MRI in these studies is that the frontal lobe [00:50:45] goes quiet, the human part of us, and then the other is open. And so [00:50:50] here's the thing, though, my patients, some of them with no medication are saying the same things as [00:50:55] they're dropping the suit of the day, the human, the journey, and their spiritual awareness is [00:51:00] growing.
There is truth to this and they're not trying to sell us anything. So the fact [00:51:05] that we don't have this information readily talked about, because. [00:51:10] Isn't this the key? Isn't this what we're searching for? What's the meaning of life? How can I make this better? [00:51:15] And the studies are all proving that. So, really beautiful and very powerful.
Speaker: It [00:51:20] most likely has to do with shutting down the default mode network part of the brain, which is, [00:51:25] that's the sense of self.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And
Speaker: so, even something like, uh, ketamine will [00:51:30] do that, which is a brain enhancer when you're not addicted to it, and you're doing it occasionally under medical [00:51:35] care, um, which is something that I do offer as a part of a neurofeedback experience at [00:51:40] Zen but an optional part, but whatever method meditation technique you're [00:51:45] using when you turn off that thing, you have a sense of oneness and just to experience that one [00:51:50] time when you're somewhere in your dying process going, Oh, wait, maybe I don't have to freak out [00:51:55] because if that's what's real, I'm just not sensing it when my default mode network is on [00:52:00] when I'm dead, that'll be turned off and then I'll go do whatever I'm going to do.[00:52:05]
It feels like that would bring a great sense of peace.
Speaker 2: It does, but let's not wait to the deathbed, [00:52:10] right? Let's see if we can do it now. And I think meditation for people who are listening is another incredible way. [00:52:15] You know, we are so overstimulated at every turn. And [00:52:20] there's a reason that that's happening, right?
So that's another podcast or a 10. But you know, it's [00:52:25] keeping you, it's like squirrel, squirrel. And so you're never quiet enough to get into that [00:52:30] connection and then to hear. But if you can, and you can feel the expansiveness. [00:52:35] And the peace, no matter what is happening in this outside world. [00:52:40] Wow. What a sense of comfort.
And yes, at the end of life, that's happening. And [00:52:45] what a beautiful thing. But again, I, I hope people can have the courage, [00:52:50] you know, people say, well, it's, I'm risking it. If I step out of my comfort zone, I'm telling you [00:52:55] this, you're risking. If you don't,
Speaker: amen,
Speaker 2: you're risking. If you don't, [00:53:00]
Speaker: do you know of the left handed tantra path?[00:53:05]
So in the West, people are like, Tantra, that's some kind of sex thing. Not really. It's, [00:53:10] uh, that can be a part of it. But the left handed tantra path is around [00:53:15] finding the sacred in everything, including the [00:53:20] scariest things, the most profane things. So you're basically sanctifying the [00:53:25] world with that kind of practice.
And it's always been intriguing to me, and this is not something that [00:53:30] I'm planning to do or want to do, but the ancient People on that [00:53:35] path. Um, this is out of India. They would actually meditate [00:53:40] with dead people or with corpses Because they're saying I [00:53:45] am going to bring the sacred even in something that is scary or [00:53:50] something That is that there's an aversion to it or something.
That's gross. So the whole point was like, how do I bring it? [00:53:55] In the hardest, most difficult, most scary situations so that then I can bring [00:54:00] it at all times.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: And it feels like being able to [00:54:05] say, how do I bring peace when I know that the end is near? I'm like, by [00:54:10] all tools available by any means necessary, learn how to do that, because it makes [00:54:15] death good, which is what your book's about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think like that's such a life lesson right there, because [00:54:20] not just at the end of life to surrender. Surrender what we [00:54:25] think is the way, and what we're, and if I'm feeling fear, If you're in fear, where is that really [00:54:30] coming from a programmed, a false belief system? If you can just trust and [00:54:35] again, bring that into your life, now trust in the guidance system because there's a [00:54:40] much bigger plan for each and every one of us if we allow it to unfold and show itself and then [00:54:45] we, what I call that inspired impulse and inspire guidance, then we have to take that inspired action.[00:54:50]
But surrendering is such a beautiful thing and when we do first of all, how freeing is that?
Speaker: Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: [00:54:55] Yeah. And, and how beautiful.
Speaker: One of the easiest ways to learn how to [00:55:00] surrender is definitely a large dose of psychedelics with a good facilitator, [00:55:05] because if you try, try to resist that, it's not going to be comfortable, and the [00:55:10] only way through is surrender, and I know so many people who've done that, including veterans [00:55:15] dealing with PTSD, I mean, you can really learn to let go of some things that don't seem possible.
Speaker 2: [00:55:20] Right. With one, with one dose from what I hear.
Speaker: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: And [00:55:25] what I love about it is that it goes all of the spectrum, right? So you have addiction, [00:55:30] you have fear of death, you have, you know, anxiety and mental health issues, which we have a [00:55:35] crisis of ego identification that is rooted, deep rooted [00:55:40] traumas, that if people, again, can have that experience, what a [00:55:45] beautiful thing that is.
Speaker: Mm hmm. I love it. It really is.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker: Well, [00:55:50] Suzanne, your, your book is The Good Death. And. I'm just going to add this to [00:55:55] your stack of biohacks that you want to do. If you can plan your birth. [00:56:00] Oh wait, you were probably already born, you're listening to the show. So if you're going to have kids, plan their [00:56:05] birth, make it a sacred experience.
And yes, I've written a book about that. There are many new ones coming [00:56:10] out. And recognizing that that is, um, one of the most important gifts you can give [00:56:15] someone. And the other important gift you can give them and yourself is a good death. [00:56:20] And using those as the capstones for this [00:56:25] time around, um, it sets you up for success the next time you come around if you're dumb [00:56:30] enough to come back to this weird place.
Suzanne, thank you so much for your [00:56:35] book. Guys, Suzanne O'Brien, The Good Death. Totally worth a read. [00:56:40] See you next time on the Human Upgrade [00:56:45] podcast.