Tony: [00:00:00] When I talk about transcendental meditation, I know that there are hundreds and hundreds of [00:00:05] scientific research studies that have been published in the greatest journals that have [00:00:10] demonstrated the importance of transcendental meditation. When you fully [00:00:15] transcend, your actual default system is going into a very high [00:00:20] alpha wave activity.
And that's how we get all the positive results, better health, [00:00:25] balance of the physiology, reduction of stress, Clarity of thinking and [00:00:30] actually even the ability to focus even more.
Host: Tony Nader is a physician [00:00:35] and neuroscientist trained at MIT and Harvard with expertise in neurology [00:00:40] and the biology of aging.
As the global leader of the Transcendental Meditation Organization, he [00:00:45] has spent decades researching how consciousness impacts health and performance.
Dave: It's very [00:00:50] well studied. Do we have evidence that TM can increase [00:00:55] brain volume of any structures that have maybe started to shrink because of toxins or [00:01:00] trauma or other things like that?
Tony: We have seen an increased blood flow to the prefrontal cortex.
Dave: [00:01:05] What's the minimum effective dose of TM per day to start seeing results? [00:01:10] You're listening to The Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.[00:01:15]
Hey guys, quick reminder. If you're listening to this on your [00:01:20] favorite audio podcast app, and you haven't been over to my YouTube channel, check it out. Just [00:01:25] search for The Human Upgrader Fund Me under Dave Asprey BPR. I post full video versions of [00:01:30] every episode and a bunch of other cool content outside the pod.
It's a great way to go deeper into the [00:01:35] content and connect with other biohackers like you. So leave a comment for me. Yeah, I'm actually gonna read [00:01:40] them. And poke around while you're there, there is a lot of stuff specifically for you. It really helps [00:01:45] and it means a lot to me. This is one of those episodes I've been looking forward [00:01:50] to for a very long time.
Because it's not that common that you get [00:01:55] to sit down with someone who has the height of [00:02:00] academic credibility. In the West, we're talking about, oh, just [00:02:05] MIT neuroscience and postdoc at Harvard, little things like that. [00:02:10] On top of this study of Eastern practices, [00:02:15] Vedic knowledge, to the point where the leader of the [00:02:20] Transcendental Meditation movement, which is a big movement with a very, I would say, respected [00:02:25] history in the West, I've also been on this path of [00:02:30] saying, how can I study different lineages and how do we apply it to neuroscience and to [00:02:35] biochemistry and all these things.
So this is going to be one of those things where this is going to be a fun [00:02:40] interview and I'm excited to get going. So welcome to the show.
Tony: Thank [00:02:45] you, Dave. That's wonderful to be with you. Your, your work is amazing and it's a joy and [00:02:50] has been also something I looked forward to, to have with you a [00:02:55] discussion on, on such a level.
Dave: Oh, thank you. Okay. [00:03:00] Meditation has become something like drinking water or exercising. [00:03:05] Everyone says you should do it, but they don't really tell you the details. What's the difference [00:03:10] between meditation and transcendental meditation?
Tony: There are different kinds of [00:03:15] meditation. Whatever deals with the mind in general, like a technique from the [00:03:20] mind level rather than, for example, eating, which is physical, [00:03:25] not nutrition, or exercise, which is physical [00:03:30] activity something that is non medical.
Non tangible in terms of [00:03:35] physicality, but which is real because we live our lives through our minds, through our [00:03:40] experiences, our joys, et cetera, is through our consciousness, our mind. [00:03:45] So whatever deals with this. most abstract level of our reality, [00:03:50] but which is most also real in terms of its importance in our life, [00:03:55] is the mind.
And how you deal with the content of the mind, the [00:04:00] thoughts, with the content of the mind in terms of feelings, [00:04:05] experiences, are different ways and categories of meditation. [00:04:10] Transcendental meditation is a term that indicates we have to [00:04:15] go beyond actually The thinking process, which is very [00:04:20] funny because how you would say you're dealing with the mind, which is a thinking [00:04:25] organ, if you like, or thinking entity.
And what do you mean by transcending? [00:04:30] Transcending is to go beyond feelings, beyond mind, beyond thought, beyond any [00:04:35] surface level of experience, and go to a level where consciousness, [00:04:40] awareness, awareness, It's free from any kind of [00:04:45] vibration, perturbation, thought, memory, [00:04:50] feeling, and experiences itself as a field of [00:04:55] pure consciousness, pure being, devoid of any thought.
[00:05:00] So there is a technique for that also, which is Uh, what we call [00:05:05] transcendental meditation.
Dave: Now, there's no thinking, because that's [00:05:10] mind, but you also said beyond feeling, which is emotion. So what's [00:05:15] left if we're not thinking and we're not feeling emotions?
Tony: We are experiencing [00:05:20] still. You know, when we fall asleep, it's one kind of state of [00:05:25] consciousness.
And that state of consciousness of sleep, there is no [00:05:30] Experience of anything. So we are our awareness is very [00:05:35] limited. I say very limited because our body is still aware. You know, if you have a loud [00:05:40] noise, the body will notice it and will wake up. Or if somebody [00:05:45] pushes you or You know, it gets cold. You even without waking, you [00:05:50] cover yourself.
This means there is a minimal level of awareness. So awareness [00:05:55] is also something that is there at different levels, different [00:06:00] layers of awareness, different layers of consciousness. When we [00:06:05] transcend, you experience what we call pure consciousness, [00:06:10] which is a state of being fully aware, not like sleep at [00:06:15] all.
It's fully awake, fully aware, in fact, so sharp and so [00:06:20] clear that you experience awareness by itself, pure [00:06:25] being. That's why we call it pure consciousness, pure being. And that [00:06:30] is what we call the transcendental state of consciousness, that which is https: [00:06:35] otter. ai All activities off this ocean off mind or the [00:06:40] ocean off being.
And in fact, we can take this this analogy, which [00:06:45] helps understanding or helps us to understand that the mind is like an [00:06:50] ocean. It's active on its surface. But as you go deeper and deeper in that [00:06:55] ocean, it settles down, settles down and settles down until it is [00:07:00] completely still. And that is where you transcend all those [00:07:05] surface values.
Dave: This is so fascinating because we're trying to use words [00:07:10] which are of the mind to explain a state that is not of the mind. [00:07:15] And when, when people have read my [00:07:20] latest book may connect in this explanation where Something happens in the [00:07:25] world around you, and it might be something like a vibration or a sound.
These are pretty easy [00:07:30] senses. There's also the whole quantum reality that we're sitting in that we don't see with [00:07:35] our mind, but our body picks up in various ways that are provable in science. So, [00:07:40] If you have no emotional reactivity to that, and [00:07:45] no thought about that, it's still there, and you're still sensing it.
[00:07:50] Is that a good way of explaining this transcendental state?
Tony: That's a very, very good, uh, good way to [00:07:55] do it. In fact, we say there is no feeling and no mind, but Of course, [00:08:00] when you come out of it a little bit, you remember, you know where you were [00:08:05] there. When you're in it, you're completely in an [00:08:10] unbounded feeling of wholeness and totality.
So there is a [00:08:15] feeling, you know, and we can call that feeling even bliss in terms of emotions, because you [00:08:20] raised that point. It's a feeling of ecstasy, of [00:08:25] epiphany of, you know, moments where time stopped and everything [00:08:30] became standstill. Time and space are no more there. And these experiences [00:08:35] have been described by great saints and, you know, people who [00:08:40] have gone suddenly into that state.
And that's a moment where you're beyond [00:08:45] time. And to transcend, the term to transcend is to go beyond, beyond [00:08:50] everything, full transcendence. And so when I'm asked [00:08:55] about mind and consciousness, there is a difference. And the mind is [00:09:00] something that holds thoughts. The intellect is that which [00:09:05] compares thoughts and analyzes situation, circumstances, [00:09:10] and then there is the ego, the sense of self, which is [00:09:15] when you know and you feel yourself, you're aware of yourself.
So your [00:09:20] consciousness is feeling its own existence. That is self [00:09:25] awareness. When you are analyzing things and comparing thoughts [00:09:30] and planning and discriminating, this is what we call intellect. When [00:09:35] we are, you are right, carrying thoughts, just experiencing them without [00:09:40] judgment, without necessarily differentiating between one thought and the other, [00:09:45] we call this the mind.
And therefore, here we are differentiating between the [00:09:50] mind that carries thought, which is in the ocean of thought. being in the ocean of the mind, [00:09:55] more on the surface level, and then consciousness itself, which is the [00:10:00] platform that supports the sense of self, the ego, the intellect, [00:10:05] the mind, and the senses, because our senses project us outside.[00:10:10]
We see things, we experience things, and all of this is, uh, On the [00:10:15] platform of consciousness,
Dave: there's a, a part of the brain [00:10:20] called the default mode network. And we used to believe that it was kind of on or [00:10:25] off. And a study in Oxford came out 20 years ago or so that showed it's more like a [00:10:30] slider switch.
So it's, you can be some on some off [00:10:35] is transcendental meditation, something where you're either in it or out of it, or is it kind of a, [00:10:40] you can be three quarters in and 25 percent out.
Tony: Yes. When you fully transcend. [00:10:45] Your actual default uh, you know, system is going [00:10:50] into a very high alpha wave activity.
This we can [00:10:55] also see in studying the electroencephalography of the brain. Yes. [00:11:00] Even the differences between different meditations, because we started our thoughts and [00:11:05] discussion about what is the difference between meditation as a [00:11:10] whole and transcendental meditation. And here we see a difference [00:11:15] that is important and fundamental even that we can discover and [00:11:20] analyze through the electrical activity of the brain and also [00:11:25] the coherence between different parts of the brain.
So when you are concentrating, [00:11:30] focusing, so this is one kind of so called meditation. You try, you [00:11:35] focus to train the mind as if to focus on things. When you [00:11:40] focus on a thought, you focus on something intensely or even less [00:11:45] like we are now focusing and discussing. What you find in the brain is a kind [00:11:50] of waves, which is called gamma wave.
It's a higher frequency wave, [00:11:55] which comes into ranges of 20 up to 40 megahertz, which [00:12:00] means per second fluctuations up and down per second. When you [00:12:05] do mindfulness, which is what we call open monitoring, it's another kind [00:12:10] of meditation, which is now, of course, very popular. [00:12:15] It's when you sit and you just observe Your thoughts without [00:12:20] judgment, or you observe your breathing, you observe what is happening [00:12:25] and you try to maintain that wakeful state, observing [00:12:30] things without judgment, without being involved.
And this is [00:12:35] like a little bit off daydreaming and what it does, it [00:12:40] slows the brain down to a theta wave, kind of going to a very slow activity [00:12:45] in the brain. And that is. A very low frequency, which [00:12:50] is the kind of frequency we encounter as we are falling asleep or we are daydreaming, [00:12:55] but still you are awake when you transcend, which we call [00:13:00] spontaneous self transcending, which means you are not trying to do it.
And that is [00:13:05] the difference between transcendental meditation.
Dave: It doesn't work if you [00:13:10] try, right?
Tony: Exactly. Exactly. And so, because if you try, [00:13:15] you go into the high wave, you know, you're starting to focus, you're forcing domain and then [00:13:20] you jump into the gamma into the 20 hertz, 40 hertz kind of [00:13:25] high frequency.
When you come to the just sleeping and, uh, [00:13:30] you know, daydreaming, mindful kind of thing, which is has [00:13:35] its own effect. Everyone has its own effect. Then you get into set of waves, which are [00:13:40] really slow waves, you know, 4567 like very [00:13:45] slow waves when you transcend. And this is a technique of transcendental [00:13:50] meditation.
You actually enter into a state of alpha wave and [00:13:55] particularly alpha one wave, which is in the 8 to 10 Um, hurts. [00:14:00] Hertz, not megahertz, hertz you know, per second to 8 to [00:14:05] 10. And this is when you you transcend through this [00:14:10] technique, which actually uses a sound that has no meaning. It's not [00:14:15] a sound that you hear.
It's a mantra that you repeat. The mantra has no [00:14:20] meaning for a good purpose. You know, if it had meaning, it would keep you on the surface because you [00:14:25] would be attached to its meaning, or somehow try to analyze [00:14:30] its meaning at a subtle level. So there is a sound which has no meaning, and [00:14:35] that you take, and you learn how to use it, and the mind guided by its [00:14:40] own nature, which is to search for more, but instead of searching [00:14:45] for more, usually, as we do always, search for more.
through our [00:14:50] senses towards the outside. Now we are guiding the mind [00:14:55] to look inside and find inner peace and harmony and satisfaction. [00:15:00] And since the inside is the most fulfilling [00:15:05] aspect of our reality, which is our pure consciousness. And there is a whole logic [00:15:10] about that, about quantum mechanics, quantum field theory, unified field theory.
I don't know [00:15:15] to what extent we need to go into that, but I know you are an expert in that, Dave, [00:15:20] also. So what we're going is actually to that unified field [00:15:25] of being which is pure consciousness. And since that is the [00:15:30] source of all that is outside, then it gives immense [00:15:35] fulfillment. And that's why the mind, guided by its nature to always want [00:15:40] more, to dive within.
So, technique is [00:15:45] natural, it doesn't require focusing, trying, concentrating, [00:15:50] and it doesn't require analyzing, judging, or not judging, or [00:15:55] actually paying attention to anything specific. It allows the mind to [00:16:00] settle down to its own self, and that is, that is in this [00:16:05] Very special kind of the default mode network being you know, [00:16:10] in a way, very, very activated in a way.
And the [00:16:15] alpha waves with great coherence between different parts of the brain. And that's how we [00:16:20] get all the positive results, all the effects on better health. [00:16:25] Balance of the physiology, reduction of stress, clarity of thinking, and [00:16:30] actually even the ability to focus, uh, even more because [00:16:35] you are not buzzing inside.
You are settling down and it's like a [00:16:40] sharp person who is very clear as we sometimes experience in our life [00:16:45] moments where we are very settled, very clear, and then we are able [00:16:50] to have great focus. While maintaining broad comprehension,
Dave: it's so [00:16:55] beautiful to hear your description of this.[00:17:00]
My book heavily meditated, uh, that just came out [00:17:05] hit that number one bestselling meditation and philosophy book, uh, on [00:17:10] Amazon, which Which surprised me on philosophy, but it was based [00:17:15] on 10 plus years of looking at brainwaves of high performing people meditating [00:17:20] and when you talk about this increase in the power [00:17:25] and orderliness of this alpha brain state in [00:17:30] combination with The gamma brain state, which was first discovered in advanced Zen [00:17:35] meditators years ago.
I know that you know that, but our our audience, um, may not, and [00:17:40] what, what I've noticed in this, this population is that [00:17:45] when they have a transcendent experience and some people say, I, you know, met a [00:17:50] dead relative or you know, an ascended master appeared to me and people have [00:17:55] profound Spiritual experiences, and that is the hallmark.
And [00:18:00] there's a couple other markers in the electricity in the brain where I know [00:18:05] that if I see that on someone's brains that they're going to come out of their session. [00:18:10] profoundly changed, tears in their eyes, saying that something, [00:18:15] something transcendent and spiritual and divine happened. And [00:18:20] the fact that we can measure brainwaves, and we know if you do this to the [00:18:25] brain, this happens, it takes it out of the realm of, you know, sitting in a monastery somewhere on the [00:18:30] planet and living in a cave and all the things we've done and saying, no, this is hard science.[00:18:35]
Now, you've been studying this and talking about it for a very [00:18:40] long time, and you and I both know 15, 20 [00:18:45] years ago, I used to put meditation in my LinkedIn profile and people would think I was crazy. So [00:18:50] how did you academically overcome this bias in the [00:18:55] West towards meditation being anti science?
Tony: It came through science, actually, [00:19:00] because science as a method.
It's perfect. It's really great. Science [00:19:05] as a dogma is something else. But science as a method of [00:19:10] investigation is great. It takes controls, measures. This is [00:19:15] very important. It measures things. And measuring is is a very [00:19:20] important aspect off scientific validation off whatever you [00:19:25] are trying to do. And so It wasn't always easy to [00:19:30] measure changes in the past, but now we have such high technologies that [00:19:35] are important, uh, that can detect small molecules [00:19:40] in the, in the blood and small changes, uh, that can detect [00:19:45] and analyze Thank you.
Electrical activities in the body in the brain in a way that [00:19:50] is more sophisticated, can localize things, can compare [00:19:55] brain waves from different areas of the brain and see how they are either coherent or [00:20:00] incoherent. And then added to that the actual experience of the people, [00:20:05] which, you know, used to be thought, Okay, this is subjective.
So why we [00:20:10] can't rely on it. But if all the people tell you that they feel happier. [00:20:15] You know, they feel happier if all the people tell you I'm less stressed. I'm feeling [00:20:20] better. I'm clearer. I make better decisions. So subjectivity also [00:20:25] is having its important value. So when you compare the subjective [00:20:30] experience, which, by the way, is the most important aspect for our life, in a sense, [00:20:35] you know, we live our lives through how we experience it.
You know, what does it matter if [00:20:40] you are the wealthiest person in the world, but you are miserable on a subjective level. [00:20:45] So objectivity You should be great, but subjectively, you're not feeling so good, [00:20:50] then what does it matter to you? What you want is to feel great, to be great, and to [00:20:55] do things in a great way.
So, comparing subjective [00:21:00] experiences with objective findings, through electroencephalography, through [00:21:05] changes in biochemistry of the blood, through improved behavior, [00:21:10] better relationship with other, less crime, feeling more fulfillment in [00:21:15] life, feeling that we are growing, we are expanding. And all of this [00:21:20] together with biochemistry and longevity and [00:21:25] rejuvenation of the body, reduction in biological age.
So [00:21:30] less Age in the body compared to the [00:21:35] chronological age, which means you are 50, but your body's working as if it's 40 [00:21:40] years old. All of this convinces scientists. And I can tell you, you [00:21:45] know, I've lived through this, you know, crazy, you know, label that [00:21:50] were given to people who practice these techniques before.
But as you started the show so [00:21:55] beautifully or the discussion so beautifully, you said, you know, now everybody wants. [00:22:00] Something because it has value and it has been proven. So when [00:22:05] something is proven science and true, scientists are always there to say, [00:22:10] well, it has value so we can use it.
Dave: The fact you said True scientists, [00:22:15] uh, makes me happy.
Uh, when I started in the Longevity Movement 25 [00:22:20] years ago, I realized there's. two kinds of science. There's science with a capital [00:22:25] S, which is a form of dogmatic religion, where they're saying this must be [00:22:30] true. Therefore, anything that doesn't agree with it must be crushed. And then there's [00:22:35] small s science, which is the discipline that we're talking about saying let's be curious and anything that doesn't match our [00:22:40] picture.
That's most interesting. Why do you think science has been so [00:22:45] hide bound and so restrictive and so opposed to exploring consciousness?
Tony: [00:22:50] I think to be to be candid and honest, it's also [00:22:55] because of the different systems of subjective [00:23:00] knowledge, uh, that have also proposed ideas. [00:23:05] that were not found to be correct.
Also, you know, there is [00:23:10] an idea at the time, not now, of course, there was an idea that the cloud [00:23:15] drains because somebody's sitting in the cloud and shaking that thing. And then [00:23:20] what? Yeah, people didn't know how the world worked in the [00:23:25] past. They just imagined things. And so they created all these [00:23:30] fantastic imaginary things.
And then somebody finds that, well, this doesn't [00:23:35] work like that. There is a law. There is a system [00:23:40] that that manages these things in an automatic way. [00:23:45] There is laws of nature. There are laws of life. There is action and reaction. [00:23:50] And therefore, Evolved a system off. How do I know [00:23:55] what is better? What is not?
And so what this led to is [00:24:00] the discarding off all that is subjective. All that [00:24:05] comes from imagination or belief and all of that. [00:24:10] And the scientist run away completely from all the [00:24:15] fields of the mind and consciousness and spirituality [00:24:20] and all of that because they felt it's, it's a bunch of things which we, you know, [00:24:25] when we analyze them, we don't understand it, the supernatural events [00:24:30] and all of that.
And so that is how scientists got [00:24:35] away from this field, but they got so much away that they [00:24:40] became dogmatic themselves. And they started to believe in [00:24:45] some things that actually later science itself contradicted. There are so [00:24:50] many things, even in medicine and different understanding of how the universe [00:24:55] works and how things are, that were thought to be absolutely true, [00:25:00] but that were discarded.
And, and found to be untrue [00:25:05] by science itself. So what we need is enough [00:25:10] modesty, but also enough candid, enough [00:25:15] truthfulness, as you say, not to reject something [00:25:20] that has not yet been fully elucidated or [00:25:25] understood. And now the question comes between Mind and body. What [00:25:30] is mind? What is body?
Relationship between consciousness and physicality and [00:25:35] materiality. And there are more and more scientists, and even [00:25:40] during the whole wave from 100 years ago until now, of [00:25:45] quantum mechanics and unified field theories, et cetera, a great wave of [00:25:50] scientists that say that the universe is more like a great thought than a [00:25:55] material, energetic thing.
And so, even using the [00:26:00] scientific method, today we have a great [00:26:05] revelation of the power of consciousness. The power of the mind, [00:26:10] the ability to make things happen. And this doesn't have to [00:26:15] be supernatural. It's only when we don't know the laws that we [00:26:20] call it supernatural. You know, if you see a plane flying now, you [00:26:25] know it's normal, it's natural.
Why? Because, you know, it uses laws of [00:26:30] nature, including, you know, speed and air flow and gravitational [00:26:35] forces and powers to lift because the They know the plane has such wings [00:26:40] and it does that. But if you were to say this to somebody 300 years ago, [00:26:45] much less even, they would think you are crazy. This is supernatural.
It's [00:26:50] impossible to raise, you know, 100 tons and make [00:26:55] them go from one place in the air to another place or to just take a little [00:27:00] machine, put it in your hand and speak to your friend who is 10, 000 miles away [00:27:05] and even see them. Talk to them. This is unimaginable, and [00:27:10] this is magical, and this is supernatural, but it's not.
It's [00:27:15] not. It is natural. Why it is seen as something supernatural is [00:27:20] because of the ignorance of the laws that manage this universe. [00:27:25] So the more we know the laws and understand that there are laws that manage the [00:27:30] mind, that manage consciousness, and actually, ultimately, that [00:27:35] consciousness is so fundamental that the laws We can act from different [00:27:40] levels of consciousness and therefore can produce things and do [00:27:45] things that can appear to have been miraculous or supernatural in [00:27:50] the past.
Dave: What's something that most people believe is supernatural today [00:27:55] that is actually scientific?
Tony: If I want to take it to an extreme, I would think [00:28:00] like people communicating without even talking [00:28:05] has been considered supernatural. And It is [00:28:10] not. It's just how clear is your mind and how [00:28:15] much you're able to detect the feeling of the other, the thoughts of the other.[00:28:20]
And we all know, but people ignore that, that when you know [00:28:25] somebody, you're well connected to somebody. You often have the same thoughts. Yeah. You [00:28:30] often, when you have a thought, they'll pick it up and they'll say, you are like this, you're feeling like this, [00:28:35] or they share a thought. We know that mother. Who is [00:28:40] far from her child.
If the child has something, she feels it [00:28:45] when she's connected with herself and was her child. So this is [00:28:50] considered esoteric and supernatural today. But I feel it is [00:28:55] very natural because the way you we can explain it is the [00:29:00] mind again is like this ocean just for the analogy. And [00:29:05] if you are on the surface of the mind and It is an ocean that is agitated.
[00:29:10] You can take a big rock and throw it in that ocean, and you will not see anything [00:29:15] because of the agitation. If you have a settled pond, and you [00:29:20] even touch it, barely touch it, you can see the ripple, and you can [00:29:25] experience the ripple, the ripple. So if our mind is agitated, [00:29:30] we can't see things. So if you want to do a study and take people who [00:29:35] are minds are agitated and say, What do you feel, you know?
They [00:29:40] will not feel anything. So you can't conclude that you can't feel these things. But [00:29:45] if you feel, if your mind is settled in consciousness and awareness, go deeper [00:29:50] and deeper into the self and experience pure consciousness, then you have [00:29:55] that sense of intuition, that sense of connectedness, and you can feel more [00:30:00] things around.
You can feel others. You can feel the effects of their [00:30:05] thinking, their fears, their, you know, their anxieties [00:30:10] and all of that. And so this is not supernatural. It's that the [00:30:15] feeling level, there are, are at different layers, levels. So there are different [00:30:20] layers of life. One is the gross level. You can see, you can hear.
[00:30:25] One is on a more subtle level and more subtle and more subtle level. And that's the feeling. Until the [00:30:30] most subtle level where you can actually sense and detect [00:30:35] other things. And, you know, people who have great intuitions even about [00:30:40] business, about decision making. We say they are lucky. We say they, [00:30:45] you know, made the right decision.
Some people have just that clarity where they [00:30:50] know what to do and how to feel and what to make as a decision. And that is [00:30:55] because that level of the reality is more [00:31:00] settled and it's not just chaotic and haphazardous.
Dave: [00:31:05] Intuition is definitely trainable and my experience [00:31:10] working with clients has been that it's hard to train intuition [00:31:15] if you haven't conquered the the state of TM or the ability to raise your alpha [00:31:20] waves to a certain extent and it's not just any alpha they have to be coherent and in [00:31:25] the right range like there's a lot of details in there but once you get the clarity of that [00:31:30] intuition just settles in.
And one of the things that has used to [00:31:35] drive me crazy, I was a network engineer. So I understand how to transmit data over [00:31:40] wires and fiber optics and all that. And I heard about smoke signals. [00:31:45] This is how the Indians in the, in North America, they [00:31:50] would use these to communicate. And I'm thinking, you can't communicate with puffs of smoke.
That's the dumbest thing I ever heard of. [00:31:55] There's no data in there. And then recently I came across, you know, some [00:32:00] esoteric writings and The only reason they had smoke signals was when [00:32:05] the guys from the next valley over would do a smoke signal. All they were saying was, stop [00:32:10] what you're doing and tune in to the field so that you can receive the data that we are sending from [00:32:15] our mind or from our consciousness.
So it was a pay attention signal, not [00:32:20] carrying the data. The data was the things that you and I are talking about, or you just know what they're thinking. Do we [00:32:25] have scientific evidence? Now that we can actually know what our [00:32:30] close friends or family are thinking, has someone measured this?
Tony: I don't think there has been a [00:32:35] systematic study on that.
You know, there have been systematic studies on [00:32:40] some you know, ideas about ESP, you know, extrasensory perception. [00:32:45] that. But the laboratory set up and the people that were studied, uh, were [00:32:50] not proficient enough to produce results that are reliable. [00:32:55] So I would say there is not enough study. And maybe the conditions [00:33:00] of the studies that have been done before were not good enough [00:33:05] to actually prove or disprove, in fact, this reality.
[00:33:10] And it's something that we experience in life very often. [00:33:15] And it can be discussed and thought of by scientists who are [00:33:20] skeptical that this is a chance occurrence. And I would I feel that it's [00:33:25] necessary to actually do, start doing this research, but it has to be done, [00:33:30] as you said, on the settled level of consciousness.[00:33:35]
on the settled level of awareness. And so people have to transcend and [00:33:40] be settled and be natural and innocent. There are [00:33:45] these important points because when you're attached to get a result, when you're attached [00:33:50] to have a solution or to be able to prove something, [00:33:55] you immediately jump on a more excited level of the thought process.
It [00:34:00] has to be trolled truly. Completely innocent, not [00:34:05] attached, and just on the feeling level, and it comes this way.
Dave: The [00:34:10] closest research I've seen that, that looked valid was from Dean Radin and [00:34:15] the Institute for Noetic Sciences. He's published a book on this. Uh, I've talked with him [00:34:20] on the show and people who have a regular meditation practice, [00:34:25] including TM, Have the ability to do these things like know what [00:34:30] another person in their in their world is thinking in a statistically significant [00:34:35] way, but people who don't have a meditation practice have no evidence whatsoever that they can do [00:34:40] this, which it's okay.
We're touching on this from all these different scientific things. [00:34:45] But then we switch from double blind trials to the other kind of [00:34:50] evidence, which is direct experience, or what we call clinical evidence. You know, if a doctor sees that [00:34:55] this works, that's really important scientific evidence, even though it's not blinded.[00:35:00]
And one of my closest friends in the world has been through [00:35:05] my neuroscience thing 40 years of Zen five times. And if something's not right in my life, she will pick up the [00:35:10] phone and call me. It doesn't matter where I am on the planet. She just knows. And same with, with, and this is, you know, a [00:35:15] soul friend.
And in fact, I have several friends like that now. And I look at that as just [00:35:20] normal in the world that I live in. And I would have rejected that as being possible in my 20s. I've [00:35:25] said, this is stupid. I'm deceiving myself. And even my grandparents [00:35:30] would have taught me that. My, my grandfather was a preeminent chemist who wrote [00:35:35] for Encyclopedia Britannica.
Um, discovered some processes we still use today [00:35:40] and just absolute atheist his whole life. Yet his [00:35:45] biggest breakthroughs came in dreams and he would wake up and just know how to do [00:35:50] it. So there was even there's some kind of mystical thing happening. [00:35:55] What is the role of dreaming versus transcendental meditation and altered [00:36:00] states work?
Tony: Dreaming is processing information or, you know, cleaning up the [00:36:05] system. So it's a different state of consciousness where we can actually [00:36:10] act upon things that normally during the day we cannot act upon [00:36:15] because they are prohibited or inhibited. So there is that side of it. There is the side [00:36:20] of cleaning up the system also and releasing some stresses.
And there is [00:36:25] the side where we analyze things that we are really interested in. [00:36:30] And, uh, you know, we get this experience. I personally have this a lot when [00:36:35] if I have a problem or I want to solve a solution to a [00:36:40] complicated situation, as I did, you know, when I was writing the book about [00:36:45] mind and body, the book that is called consciousness is all there is.
Yes, which [00:36:50] actually is a new york time bestseller. And it talks about how consciousness is [00:36:55] primary and how we can connect on that. I had many questions that [00:37:00] came to mind that were difficult to resolve. And I would just [00:37:05] take the thought on a quiet level of the mind. And then I wake up in the [00:37:10] morning and I have the solution.
So Uh, in the night we process [00:37:15] things if we are really desiring something from a subtle level [00:37:20] of being rather than, again, on an activated, uh, you know, [00:37:25] attachment, excited level, but on a subtle level of simple, [00:37:30] desire to find something, solutions can come, and many scientists will [00:37:35] tell you that. And they're quiet moments.
They get, they get a revelation. They get an [00:37:40] understanding. This is what's called the aha experience, the, you know, that they talk [00:37:45] about. So it can happen during dreaming, and it can happen during [00:37:50] this moment of lucidity and clarity of the mind that comes [00:37:55] from transcending.
Dave: On this show, I've had a couple interviews around [00:38:00] biocentrism, this idea that consciousness creates the [00:38:05] world around us.
That that all of reality comes from inside [00:38:10] of us versus the other way around. Are you on that side of of the theory [00:38:15] of reality or somewhere else?
Tony: I am partially on that side. Depending on your state [00:38:20] of consciousness, you see different things. So, consciousness is very [00:38:25] important. And I describe in my book the three factors that influence any [00:38:30] experience.
Uh, there is the knower. There is the known, [00:38:35] the object that we observe, and there is the process of knowing, which is that [00:38:40] which connects the knower to the known. So every time we have an [00:38:45] experience, it's not devoid totally of [00:38:50] outside input, and it's not, of course at all devoid from [00:38:55] our filtering of the things based on who we are.
So [00:39:00] if you have a white paper and you wear yellow glasses, [00:39:05] then the paper will appear yellow. But if it's red or [00:39:10] if it's something else, that will be, you know, a mixed color. [00:39:15] So the object itself has its own input, [00:39:20] but The way the nervous system sees it is [00:39:25] based on the nervous system's state of consciousness.
So what we say [00:39:30] then is knowledge is different in different states of consciousness. So [00:39:35] indeed, your personal experience of what is [00:39:40] happening during that moment depends on you. Depends on the [00:39:45] object and also depends on how you are connected to the object. [00:39:50] So if the lighting, for example, the paper might be white, but the [00:39:55] lighting might be red and you're wearing yellow glasses, so you're gonna get a different [00:40:00] experience than somebody who has no glasses and where the light is white.[00:40:05]
So or whatever or red or whatever. So the [00:40:10] outcome of the individual experience. Has these three [00:40:15] components in them that are very important and that's something we forget so [00:40:20] this biocentrism goes a little bit too far in the sense of [00:40:25] You know you recreate the entire universe based on who you are [00:40:30] Which is partially true.
You know, we can't say it's not true. But there is [00:40:35] also a universe in which you live with other conscious [00:40:40] beings, individuals, or even, I would say, objects that are all [00:40:45] vibrations of consciousness that are interacting with each other. And the way they [00:40:50] interact with each other creates a novel experience, which we call [00:40:55] my experience.
But When the cat is looking at me, the cat has [00:41:00] its own experience. Obviously, it doesn't see me as I imagine [00:41:05] it should, and I don't see the cat as [00:41:10] it imagines I should because I see things through my [00:41:15] point of view, through my consciousness, through my nervous system, and it sees things [00:41:20] from its consciousness, its nervous system, its point of view.
[00:41:25] We are both consciousness and conscious, but based on [00:41:30] Our quality of consciousness and how we're connected together, we have different [00:41:35] experiences.[00:41:40]
Dave: There are those who would say that the cat is just a quantum [00:41:45] fluctuation and that we only see it as a cat because our [00:41:50] bodies are making it look like a cat, like it's an icon for a cat that's really just a bunch [00:41:55] of quantum mush. Um, and it seems pretty radical [00:42:00] to go that way because you could say the cat does have consciousness.
I don't know the [00:42:05] answer to that, but I, I find myself drifting more towards biocentrism as I go deeper into [00:42:10] things. and understanding that I perceive my glasses as being yellow. [00:42:15] And also that if I look at them really closely, there's nothing there because they're empty space [00:42:20] and man, it's confusing, but the less I think about it, the easier it is.[00:42:25]
So maybe I need to do more TM. I really hope
Tony: you will read my book. Oh, absolutely. [00:42:30] Uh, really, because it really addresses [00:42:35] these questions. These are some of the questions that I mentioned when I fall asleep [00:42:40] and how to solve this problem. And I wake up with solutions or [00:42:45] even thinking about them intellectually and analyzing them from common sense perspective [00:42:50] and how to come to solutions.
In fact biocentrism, if we look [00:42:55] at it like this, is very close to what I'm proposing, which is that [00:43:00] consciousness is all there is, in fact. So there is one field, which is a [00:43:05] field of consciousness, that has within it all possible [00:43:10] imaginary things that it can imagine. How is that? See, [00:43:15] we as humans, we have consciousness.
The wider is our consciousness. The more things we can [00:43:20] imagine. You can imagine things that don't exist. You imagine a unicorn, you [00:43:25] imagine a goddess and a god, and you imagine, you know, [00:43:30] entities. You can create movies that are absolutely fantastic and [00:43:35] beyond this world and universes and all of that. So our imagination is quite [00:43:40] fertile, and the more we are aware of or have broad consciousness, [00:43:45] the more we can imagine things.
Now, think of a consciousness [00:43:50] That is all there is, which is a unified field of one [00:43:55] absolute, unlimited unbounded field of [00:44:00] being, which is pure being, pure consciousness. And now you [00:44:05] say, well, what is its potential for imagination? It's much, [00:44:10] much bigger even than our human imagination. And therefore, it [00:44:15] has within it.
All possible things that [00:44:20] exist or could ever exist. All possible situations that [00:44:25] exist or could ever exist. But they are all virtual, in the sense [00:44:30] that they are not manifest. They are just imagination, in the same [00:44:35] way as an author imagines characters before [00:44:40] the characters become reality in a book or in a movie.
So the imagination [00:44:45] is infinite and fertile, and we are all already in that [00:44:50] imagination, because it's infinite imagination. So it must imagine every possible thing and its [00:44:55] contrary. Now, why does this infinite consciousness [00:45:00] ever manifest as individual states of consciousness or [00:45:05] individual beings? The reason is that is nature is to be [00:45:10] conscious.
It is its nature and it is consciousness of [00:45:15] all these possibilities from an unbounded unlimited [00:45:20] perspective. It doesn't know what it is like to be conscious from a [00:45:25] limited perspective, which means to be conscious like Tony or [00:45:30] Dave or, you know, Miriam or whoever, [00:45:35] whatever. And that is the reason why there is this.
[00:45:40] emergence of individual consciousness, which in fact, [00:45:45] when you, we go back to our example of the cat and the human being, and I'm looking at [00:45:50] it, the cat is consciousness. It's pure consciousness. It's [00:45:55] an energy of consciousness appearing to me [00:46:00] as a cat and me looking at it from my perspective as a human [00:46:05] being.
But I am also a bundle of consciousness looking at another [00:46:10] bundle of consciousness. And seeing it from [00:46:15] whatever I can see. Because if my eyes were able to see [00:46:20] longer frequencies than You know, ultraviolet [00:46:25] or, or, or, to the other side, actually infrared. We [00:46:30] can see between red and violet, but suppose we can see infrared [00:46:35] and even lower frequencies or higher frequencies or X [00:46:40] ray and all of that, we could see something else.
The universe will look completely different. [00:46:45] It's only our eyes limit us to this particular [00:46:50] perspective on reality. If it wasn't a cat, I know the [00:46:55] cat is consciousness, but it's that aspect of consciousness that limited [00:47:00] aspect of consciousness. I am consciousness completely. That's all. I [00:47:05] appear to myself also as a body and physicality, but I am consciousness and I cannot see [00:47:10] more than that.
But still, I am one aspect of consciousness. The cat is [00:47:15] another aspect of consciousness, right? When I come together with the cat, even though we are both [00:47:20] consciousness, We see each other on the surface level as [00:47:25] different entities than pure consciousness. Now, when [00:47:30] we reach higher states of consciousness, that's why when we teach Transcendental Meditation, we [00:47:35] talk about higher states of consciousness.
Where we go beyond, the [00:47:40] sleep dream and waking state to what we call transcendental [00:47:45] consciousness, which is the state where we experience pure being. But even beyond that, to [00:47:50] what we call cosmic consciousness, where an individual established in the self [00:47:55] knows themselves to be pure consciousness. So they discovered the [00:48:00] reality for themselves, but they haven't yet discovered it for all [00:48:05] objects in their environment.
So that's why it's only one level of consciousness. [00:48:10] Now when you reach higher and higher states of consciousness, you come ultimately [00:48:15] to what we call unity consciousness. Unity consciousness [00:48:20] is When you know that the cat, the tree, [00:48:25] the stone, the other people, they are all that same [00:48:30] field of consciousness, pure being, appearing, [00:48:35] manifesting as one aspect or the other.
And you are seeing that [00:48:40] aspect or the other, but you know within you. That they are the [00:48:45] unified field, that they are pure consciousness. And this is where we can, [00:48:50] you know, rejoin biocentrism in a sense, but with a little [00:48:55] bit of refined kind of, additional detail. [00:49:00] And that is, although it is the same sap, we can take an analogy of a [00:49:05] sap and a tree.
The sap is the same, yet it [00:49:10] appears as a flower. when it gets transformed. It's the same sap. It appears as [00:49:15] a flower. It's the same sap, but now it modifies itself, appears as a [00:49:20] leaf. It appears as a branch. It appears, appears as, [00:49:25] you know, a trunk or whatever, but it's the same sap. So, [00:49:30] Even science has discovered that the ultimate [00:49:35] reality, even on the objective level, is a field which is a [00:49:40] unified field.
I mean, there are theories about that and scientists discuss it, but [00:49:45] all scientists look towards a unified field that actually [00:49:50] manifests as the different forces of nature. The different, you know, particles, et [00:49:55] cetera, which when they come together, they create the various universe, [00:50:00] whereas within them, the inside of them, the essence of them is that [00:50:05] one field, which we call, which we are calling the field of consciousness.
Dave: The [00:50:10] fact that our bodies are designed to not really perceive this without a [00:50:15] lot of work makes this so it sounds esoteric. I have. [00:50:20] Experienced in my own life and with lots of clients as you have with millions of people who [00:50:25] do TM that there, there is a set of instructions. There is a [00:50:30] pathway for us to learn to perceive these things.
It's just a long path. [00:50:35] So talk to me about psychedelics and TM. Are they going to help?
Tony: The way they [00:50:40] will help is to let us know that there is some different kind of experience that's [00:50:45] possible. However, as we know, they become addictive and [00:50:50] they distort the system over long term. And therefore, if we [00:50:55] can do it, in a more holistic, nourishing way, where [00:51:00] we maintain our integrity of the physiology and our [00:51:05] ability to act in society in a holistic way to support the [00:51:10] growth and development and evolution of life, then that's the way to [00:51:15] go.
Otherwise, to get an experience just for a short time can be [00:51:20] fine. Relaxing or, you know, giving opening up the awareness, which is [00:51:25] wonderful. We have to be very careful about its long term [00:51:30] effects. And therefore, I personally don't encourage people [00:51:35] to, to follow that.
Dave: I don't have a problem with using psychedelics [00:51:40] to show you the door, so that you can then learn how to [00:51:45] go to the door without the psychedelics.
And I, I actually feel. [00:51:50] Empathy. Uh, there's a few people out there, you know, I've done ayahuasca 87 [00:51:55] times and I'm like, man, what are you going to notice? It's not working. Right. [00:52:00] And so there's risk from reliance on it. And [00:52:05] then where I've ended up, there are some things like ketamine, which is now an optional part [00:52:10] of, of my 40 years of Zen neuroscience program.
The doses are so low [00:52:15] that you're not going through the door, but they're making neuroplasticity [00:52:20] easier so that you can learn these states and the brain is more, like, [00:52:25] more pliable for you to go there. Any thoughts on low dose [00:52:30] microdosing or any other ways of enhancing the brain's ability to [00:52:35] change itself?
Tony: I feel we should have more scientific research to be able to [00:52:40] make an answer, to give an answer to that. And it's very necessary [00:52:45] because what are the side effects over long term? How much does it help? Uh, we [00:52:50] don't know. And so, you know, there are foods that are very important. So we have [00:52:55] learned about foods that they are.
Some of them are necessary. Some [00:53:00] of them change our behavior and feeling also and and [00:53:05] experience. And so all of these natural things that happen, and some of them have [00:53:10] been chemically studied and the active ingredients have [00:53:15] been extracted. And so are we are we [00:53:20] targeting something that has a temporary effect or long term effect?
So [00:53:25] if I was to answer this, I would feel I would be Working in a [00:53:30] way that is more like on a dogmatic level, which means, Oh, it's my opinion. I [00:53:35] expect that. And it's not fair to give an answer that is not [00:53:40] scientifically supported. So you know, when I talk about transcendental meditation, [00:53:45] I know that there are hundreds and hundreds of scientific research studies that have [00:53:50] been published in, in, in the greatest journals that [00:53:55] have demonstrated.
The importance of transcendental [00:54:00] meditation, the importance of, uh, its effect on mind, body [00:54:05] behavior over a long period of time, health, wholeness, and wellness, and so [00:54:10] that I can talk about.
Dave: It, it's, uh, it's very well studied. Do we [00:54:15] have evidence that TM can increase [00:54:20] brain volume of any structures that have maybe, you know, Started to shrink because of toxins [00:54:25] or trauma or other things like that are actually growing the brain from TM
Tony: There are [00:54:30] studies that have been studied on you know the effects of [00:54:35] meditation on on the hippocampus on [00:54:40] memory Aspects on even the amygdala [00:54:45] actually not Uh, not growing, but actually being more under control, which is the [00:54:50] place where we have, you know, anxieties and fight and flight [00:54:55] response.
And you know, all of that. So and what we have seen also is an [00:55:00] increased blood flow to the prefrontal cortex, and therefore all of these [00:55:05] values are nourished and nurtured by transcendental meditation as [00:55:10] compared to the part that deal with you know, stress and strain, uh, that [00:55:15] actually allow, make us react in an aggressive or violent way.
And so they [00:55:20] are more, Settled. And yet there is clear perspective and clear [00:55:25] perception that allows us to make the right choices. It's not that we become [00:55:30] lethargic or uninterested. To the contrary, interest and [00:55:35] strength increases. Uh, while there is clarity and peace and harmony [00:55:40] within.
Dave: Have you seen effects on the caudate nucleus, the part of the brain that's dopamine [00:55:45] centric?
Tony: I don't think it has, it was studied really directly, but the [00:55:50] effects of, you know, dopamine, which is to increase, [00:55:55] uh, desire to do things, to increase the ability to to perform, the [00:56:00] desire to be more, uh, towards pleasure looking and, and all of that. [00:56:05] Uh, the effects of it is seen in people with greater you know, [00:56:10] more regular practice of transcendental meditation.
So you can see you know, [00:56:15] uh, artists and actors and producers and directors [00:56:20] of movies, they have greater imagination, greater clarity. They find [00:56:25] solutions and they are motivated. So the motivation part, which is connected [00:56:30] to dopamine, really increases and is is very beautifully [00:56:35] expressed. So we can imagine that it has such an effect.
But [00:56:40] Whether it's been studied directly, I'm not aware.
Dave: I haven't seen neuroimaging studies of [00:56:45] volume, but certainly the behaviors associated with that healthy part of the brain, they do [00:56:50] increase. ADHD and OCD can get better from, from TM.
Tony: Exactly. [00:56:55]
Dave: Can you summarize what you see in terms of memory, focus, and reaction time [00:57:00] when people start doing TM?
Tony: Reaction time increases, which is very interesting because when you wake [00:57:05] up from sleep, for example, which is a different state of consciousness. And when you are rested, [00:57:10] it takes you a while to be able to react quickly to things. And [00:57:15] there are tests that are done that are very standardized. You know, when you see this, [00:57:20] On the screen, you press this button.
When you see that, you press that button. And they calculate [00:57:25] the time it takes for you to press the button, so they see if it takes you a longer [00:57:30] time, then your reaction time is slow, or etc. as [00:57:35] we know. And when people practice Transcendental Meditation, as soon as they come out [00:57:40] with meditation, they are very settled, and they look fresh, and, you know, like, oh, [00:57:45] awake.
But the reaction time is absolutely superb and [00:57:50] very, very fast. And so that is really increasing. At one [00:57:55] point, you know, the Swedish army, the pilots, they introduced [00:58:00] transcendental meditation because they have found this What we call broad [00:58:05] comprehension, which is required for pilots to have what we call situational [00:58:10] awareness, you know, you have to be aware of the surrounding and yet you have to be [00:58:15] focused and perform the right action very quickly.
And so they found [00:58:20] this very, very effective and people who practice transcendental meditation. [00:58:25] Wow.
Dave: Will TM make you biologically younger?
Tony: Studies again have shown [00:58:30] that for those who practice meditation for several [00:58:35] months or years, they can have a biological age five to 10 years [00:58:40] younger. And this is, you know, studying the parameters of [00:58:45] biological age.
What's
Dave: TM per day? [00:58:50]
Tony: We have found and suggest that 20 minutes in the morning, 20 [00:58:55] minutes in the evening is the most effective. Timing for an [00:59:00] adult, for children, because children can practice it even from the age of five or six. [00:59:05] Uh, we give them lesser time. So from the age of 10 to the age of [00:59:10] 1820, they'll practice one minute more every year.
So when [00:59:15] you're 12 years old, you do 12 minutes. When you are 15, you do 15 minutes.
Dave: I've been [00:59:20] working on ways to enhance meditation efficiency, because I really don't [00:59:25] want to spend 40 minutes a day meditating. In fact, I don't want to spend more than one minute a day meditating. If I get all the results, [00:59:30] I would do that, right?
But I'm willing to do whatever is necessary. And I've, [00:59:35] I've noticed I can extend the amount of time I can meditate before I'm just [00:59:40] blown out by about two and a half times with supplements and with food and things like that. [00:59:45] What do you do to prepare your biology for TM? So you have the most powerful experience [00:59:50] you can?
Yeah.
Tony: You know, we have additional techniques to help, including what we call [00:59:55] yoga asanas, which is positions and stretching the body properly, and pranayama, which is [01:00:00] breathing exercises that help to clear up the surface tensions [01:00:05] so that TM can focus on raising your consciousness rather than clearing [01:00:10] up.
The tensions. Also, we advise if people want [01:00:15] about diet, daily routine. This is based also on [01:00:20] ancient knowledge of Ayurveda, which has different body types. So [01:00:25] depending on your body type and the season and the qualities of the [01:00:30] food that you eat, you can adjust this so you maintain a balanced [01:00:35] physiology.
And all of this helps so that when you sit to meditate, uh, [01:00:40] you don't have to take care. So meditation doesn't have to take care of the surface [01:00:45] values and it gets you to dive deeper. But in any case, [01:00:50] meditation makes you clean up the system also. But why spend the [01:00:55] time cleaning up surface things that you can prevent, you know, by having the right [01:01:00] diet, right nutrition, right daily routine, a little bit of breathing exercise, et cetera.[01:01:05]
In terms of time, really, I have found that meditation [01:01:10] gives me more time. It's an investment because when you meditate and you [01:01:15] come out clear and able to perform things fast, as we have [01:01:20] said, and effective, then you are saving time off wobbling [01:01:25] around and being unsure and stressing and unstressing and [01:01:30] anxiety and not feeling good and then trying all kinds of things to, [01:01:35] uh, you know, to get yourself going.
Why not get the maximum? [01:01:40] and then go out and do things in a sharper way. When I was at [01:01:45] medical school and I was meditating, there was a huge demand for studying and for, [01:01:50] for taking care of patients and emergency room and all of that. [01:01:55] And I found that it helped me really to be effective, to study well, to [01:02:00] be clear and to be more productive.
So the investment of [01:02:05] the 20 minutes for one thing, it's a pleasurable time. So [01:02:10] it's not something you say. Oh, my God. Now I have to do this more. I should be good and I should do it. [01:02:15] You don't say that what you say this. Oh, my God. It's the time for meditation is [01:02:20] the best time of the day. And so, therefore, it's an enjoyable activity.[01:02:25]
That leads to effectiveness and great productivity during the [01:02:30] day.
Dave: I love that framing. Uh, you sound a little bit like Deepak Chopra, [01:02:35] uh, who's also been on the show, right? Yeah, I get to meditate first. I have to meditate it. [01:02:40] It's different than high intensity interval training or something. And that's, that's not that fun.
And Tony, I know [01:02:45] that you are about to get on an airplane coming up here and I want to [01:02:50] honor your time. And thank you so much for your, your deep scientific [01:02:55] curiosity, for your work in the world, for helping to study these very [01:03:00] hard to study altered states from all the different lenses you do at. So truly, [01:03:05] thank you for being on the show and for just being being a light of curiosity around consciousness because [01:03:10] the world needs more of that today.
Tony: Thank you, Dave. Thank you for your show. It is a light of consciousness. [01:03:15] Your show is a wonderful exposure of possibilities and [01:03:20] inspiration to so many. So thank you for having me.
Dave: It's been an honor and guys [01:03:25] go to drtoninator. com to learn more. It's easy to find [01:03:30] things about transcendental meditation and we've got the guy who's done the most science and is [01:03:35] leading this movement who's just taught you a bunch of stuff.
So keep tuning into the [01:03:40] show because there's a lot of stuff your body and your mind and your conscience can do that. [01:03:45] You probably don't know about because you're not supposed to unless you talk to someone who [01:03:50] is a master and we just did see you next time on the [01:03:55] human upgrade podcast.