Catharine: [00:00:00] I'm entering my 70th year and I am so in the rabbit hole. I take no [00:00:05] medications. I have no illnesses. I don't even take any other supplements. This is my own hair. There's no [00:00:10] extensions. This is my own teeth. I take nothing except I think the is the best [00:00:15] hack, period. There's a hundred thousand studies proving the science and it's effortless and has all the [00:00:20] nutrients that you are missing for that optimal energy, life, wellness.
[00:00:25] Brain health, everything. It's proven to kill cancer cells. And you no longer have it after the [00:00:30] age of 40. That's when metabolic health issues, brain fog, weight gain, heart attacks, [00:00:35] cancer, all of this escalates after 40. And then by the time you're 40, you have even [00:00:40] less of it. And by 50, you have none of it.
Without it, you're basically dead.
Host: Catherine Arnston is a [00:00:45] globally recognized biohacker and nutrition strategist. With decades of experience in longevity [00:00:50] and cellular health, she has helped countless individuals optimize energy, vitality, and [00:00:55] overall well being. Her pioneering work in anti aging and mitochondrial health is [00:01:00] transforming how we approach human performance and rewriting the rules of what the human body can do.
Catharine: [00:01:05] I taught myself most of what I know just by going deep. into PubMed because I am [00:01:10] determined to find out how we can make aging easier for people. It shouldn't be [00:01:15] so difficult, it shouldn't be so expensive, it shouldn't be so complicated, it shouldn't be so reliant on the medical [00:01:20] profession. And I know I'll probably sound like a crazy woman, but I'm convinced a is the answer.[00:01:25]
Dave: You're listening to The Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.[00:01:30]
This is [00:01:35] a special episode of The Human Upgrade because we're celebrating [00:01:40] a birthday. Our guest today, her second time on the show, is entering her [00:01:45] 70th year and this is the big day. So Catherine Arnstead, recent [00:01:50] PhD graduate, congratulations. Thank you so much, Dave. She's coming on the show [00:01:55] to talk about mitochondrial biology.
And you could say, oh my gosh, that sounds a little [00:02:00] bit. Boring, except it's not because we're going to be hacking mitochondria [00:02:05] and there's a lot of really cool pathways and support factors So if you want to live for [00:02:10] a very long time and you take care of your mitochondria You do that in your 20s, [00:02:15] and it's really easy and cheap, and you do it in your 40s or 50s, [00:02:20] and since pretty much everyone over age 40 ish, 50 [00:02:25] ish, has mitochondrial dysfunction, it's just a hallmark of aging, but it's optional.
[00:02:30] And if you're, I don't know, like in your 60s, early 70s, and you want to [00:02:35] look a little amazing and have a brain that gets a PhD and just totally [00:02:40] super smart, listen to Catherine and what she's going to teach us on the episode today, [00:02:45] uh, because she's a walking testament to what happens when you take care of your mitochondria.[00:02:50]
Catherine, welcome back.
Catharine: Dave, so great to be here. I can't believe I'm here. This is the second time and [00:02:55] we are going to go beyond what we did last year. Just like in your show which is now [00:03:00] beyond.
Dave: Ah, the Beyond Biohacking Conference.
Catharine: Beyond Biohacking. We're going to go beyond what we talked about and we're going to [00:03:05] go beyond what anyone ever dreamed LG could do for you.
Um, because when [00:03:10] you, Understand how your mitochondria work and what they need. They want to look after [00:03:15] you, but, and when they do, you are a rock star. Um, so it's not about living, just [00:03:20] living long, it's living well. But you need to know how, what you need to do to make that [00:03:25] happen. And the mitochondria is where it's at.
Dave: Now, [00:03:30] I asked you back on the show because your last interview just went viral because you're dropping [00:03:35] all this knowledge, and I think you see mitochondria in a different way, and you know, [00:03:40] I'm sometimes, every time I see you I'm like, why is she not green like Swamp Thing? Because [00:03:45] you are so into algae, Because, not just any algae, but the [00:03:50] specific forms, there's two kinds that you've focused on, and you've done such deep research that I want to [00:03:55] make this a master class on how mitochondria work, how they [00:04:00] break, and then what are the things you can do, including the components that are in [00:04:05] spirulina and chlorella, and why they work and where they work, so people really [00:04:10] understand, I must take care of my mitochondria.
Absolutely. And it's about performing better [00:04:15] now. And it's about looking better over time and not getting all the [00:04:20] degenerative diseases and things like that.
Catharine: Right. Because aging is natural, declining is not. [00:04:25] We've assumed that it is. And I'm an example of the fact that it's not. I [00:04:30] take no medications. I have no illnesses.
I don't even take any other supplements. I, [00:04:35] you know, I, I do the things that are, That really Mother Nature has provided for us. Things [00:04:40] like algae and sleep and, um, sunlight and movement [00:04:45] and water. And, um, so it's also You must
Dave: use some kind of serum. Like your face is just [00:04:50]
Catharine: I just put it I've used the same cream for the last 40 years.
Wow. Oh, I will say. [00:04:55] a shout out to a fellow colleague, I started using the Alatera Gold Serum [00:05:00] on my skin a couple years ago, but it was looking great before then, but um, You're doing [00:05:05] amazingly well. It's well, it's because I'm nourished from the inside. Your skin is nourished by your blood, and [00:05:10] you're, um, just like all the other parts of your body.
Your skin is an organ, it's a very large, [00:05:15] it's the largest and very visible organ,
Music: but
Catharine: all of your organs are nourished by it. are need to be nourished, [00:05:20] including your skin. And I attribute my skin health mostly to the fact that I take [00:05:25] spirulina and chlorella every day. You take
Dave: some collagen too, I'm guessing?
Nope. Nope? Wow. So you're all about getting your [00:05:30] protein, aminos, minerals straight from algae.
Catharine: I take nothing except spirulina and [00:05:35] chlorella. No fish
Dave: oil, no nothing.
Catharine: No fish oil. Oh, I can't. Yeah, fish oil. I was [00:05:40] repeating no, no fish oil ever, ever, ever. The only thing I will take is when I'm traveling, I'll take a little extra [00:05:45] magnesium and I'll take a little bit of vitamin C.
Because I don't eat a lot of fruit, but nothing [00:05:50] else,
Dave: no vitamin D,
Catharine: nothing.
Dave: What the heck. And so
Catharine: what do you nothing? Well, [00:05:55] I just eat whole foods, selective whole foods, nothing processed, no [00:06:00] sugar. So there are those things because sugar is very inflammatory. Very, very age. I look at someone [00:06:05] with wrinkles in their face.
I could tell that they probably are eating a lot of sugar. So, so [00:06:10] I, I am conscious of my diet, but I've always been that way. But the algae took me over [00:06:15] the finish line for sure.
Dave: What stands out is I run a [00:06:20] longevity nonprofits or I don't run one now, but I started doing that in my late 20s. I spent a lot [00:06:25] of time looking at how people age and pretty good at estimating [00:06:30] and you're in like the top 5 percent where [00:06:35] God, you're entering 70th year.
And your face looks fantastic, and [00:06:40] you're healthy. I don't do
Catharine: Botox either, just in case you're wondering. This is my own hair. There's no extensions. [00:06:45] This is my own teeth. Somebody asked me if I did. So, so I am, I am an [00:06:50] example of what, how you can age well, gracefully, elegantly, [00:06:55] without a lot of, I mean, I'm, I'm a big fan of biohacks and all the, the red light, a big fan of red light.
You do that kind of stuff. [00:07:00] Um, there's a, you know, cold plunge. So those are all add ons.
Dave: So you're a biohacker. Absolutely. You don't [00:07:05] take supplements except for the energy beds that
Catharine: I think the algae is the best hack period, [00:07:10] and then you can stack it with other stuff, but it's I feel it's foundational, and I'm an [00:07:15] example of that because everything else is just optional for me.
Dave: So we've done all the physical stuff, [00:07:20] which, you know, there's all kinds of makeup and things that you can use to hide stuff. stuff. But what stands out [00:07:25] the most is just how fast your brain is. I mean, you just got a PhD and that's [00:07:30] very rare, even just over 50 for people to do it. And when we start going deep on mitochondria, [00:07:35] people are just going to understand like, wow, you've got it going on mentally, which is super cool.
Catharine: [00:07:40] Well, I spent 15 years on PubMed, somebody asked me, oh, did I have coaches, did I go to school? And [00:07:45] I, I taught myself most of what I know myself just by going deep into [00:07:50] PubMed because I am determined to find out how we can make aging [00:07:55] easier for people. Uh, and it doesn't, shouldn't be so difficult, it shouldn't be so [00:08:00] expensive, it shouldn't be so complicated, shouldn't be so reliant on the medical profession and, you know, cancer and [00:08:05] heart disease are just still escalating.
And I am determined to find out. answer [00:08:10] that is natural and effortless. And I know I'll probably sound like a crazy woman, but [00:08:15] I'm convinced algae is the answer. And it was a gift to us from Mother Nature. I can't take credit for [00:08:20] algae. I can't take credit for growing it carefully to preserve the nutrients.
But this is Mother Nature at [00:08:25] her finest.
Dave: So we'll talk some more. You do some weird and very important stuff with the [00:08:30] algae the way you make it because A lot of it out there doesn't work and there's a reason it doesn't work. We [00:08:35] covered that in the last episode, we'll get there, but first let's talk about what's happening [00:08:40] in mitochondria.
And I'm very interested in hydrogen [00:08:45] peroxide because when we talk about things like gray hair and aging, hydrogen [00:08:50] peroxide forms in cells. Walk me through what hydrogen peroxide [00:08:55] does in the body, why it's there and what we do about it.
Catharine: Okay. So, I'll go a little higher level to start [00:09:00] off with for anyone who's not quite familiar with mitochondria.
They are what [00:09:05] generate cellular energy known as ATP. And the best analogy I've come up with is, you know, in [00:09:10] a building, um, you can't do any work without any lights. If you have a power outage or your [00:09:15] light bulbs go out, you, you're kind of stuck. So you call maintenance and they come and turn the electricity back [00:09:20] on.
And the mitochondria are not just the light bulbs. They are also the electricity, [00:09:25] so they are twofold more important than what's in your building. Now, [00:09:30] the maintenance people that will turn your mitochondria back on are actually an antioxidant [00:09:35] called superoxide dismutase. And normally your, uh, your [00:09:40] maintenance people are there from the moment you're born because your body makes this stuff.
D called Super oxygenase, [00:09:45] also known as SOD. Just like it makes melatonin, just like it makes hormones. It's a natural [00:09:50] product until about the age of 30. And then like a lot of things, hormones, melatonin, [00:09:55] it starts to drop. And then by the time you're 40, um, you have even less of it. [00:10:00] And by 50 you have none of it.
And what superoxide dismutase does is [00:10:05] it. takes the free radicals that are produced as a byproduct of this [00:10:10] ATP, because ATP, and we're going to go through how the ATP is actually produced because it's in something called the electron [00:10:15] transport chain. But when, um, the, you have the, you have to have ATP because without [00:10:20] ATP, you're basically dead.
So you have about six
Dave: seconds of supply in the body. Yeah. Yeah.
Catharine: And you [00:10:25] can't, so your body can't store ATP. So whenever it's made, it's used at the moment. So you need [00:10:30] ATP. Yeah. Yeah. byproduct are these things called free radicals, and the free radical that is [00:10:35] produced in the mitochondria is called superoxide, and it's very, it's very [00:10:40] damaging!
Now, normally an antioxidant would, um, would neutralize a free radical, [00:10:45] but most antioxidants cannot get into the mitochondria because the mitochondria have [00:10:50] a second inner membrane that doesn't have these things called porin that, that make up the microplasm. PORINs that are [00:10:55] required for antioxidants to get in.
There are some antioxidants that can get in, [00:11:00] including glutathione, chlorophyll uh, and also this one called superoxide [00:11:05] dismutase. Because dismutase means to dismantle. So you're, [00:11:10] you've got these free radicals called, called superoxide that are being thrown off as a [00:11:15] by product of, Let
Dave: me play this back.
So [00:11:20] as you're making heat or electricity or mitochondria doing their daily thing, they're throwing [00:11:25] off SO or super oxide. And if things are working right and you're young, [00:11:30] then the body also makes S O D, which turns [00:11:35] off the S O. So as long as that's in balance, you're young and powerful [00:11:40] and you feel good.
Right. And then your body makes less and less of the thing that turns it off, which is [00:11:45] why we get gray hair, we get all these, these diseases of aging. It's not the only cause of aging, [00:11:50] to be clear, but it's a major thing. Right. And it's that drop off over time. Right. [00:11:55] Okay.
Catharine: And you're right about it. I'm not sure if turning it off is the words I would use, but they're [00:12:00] good.
They help people understand. What it does is it neutralizes it and it [00:12:05] converts it, and we'll get into this in greater detail in a minute. It converts it to oxygen and water, which are harmless. [00:12:10]
Dave: It's actually beneficial. You want some hydration.
Catharine: Yeah, because it's a closed loop. I [00:12:15] mean, Mother Nature creating us and creating algae and the nutrients in algae, it's a closed loop.
[00:12:20] And as you start to understand how this all works, you go, Oh, my God, that's [00:12:25] unbelievable. Because we are a fine piece of equipment. And, and, and every, Every concept, every piece [00:12:30] that needs to be co factored in is in there in your body, if you give it what it needs. So, [00:12:35] so yes, so we have this stuff called superoxide and the way I describe it is it acts like a big [00:12:40] golf umbrella.
You know, you've seen those big golf umbrellas, whether you're golfing or shopping, you get stuck in a [00:12:45] rainstorm. You pop that baby up, you're protected. You haven't stopped the rain, but [00:12:50] you stopped getting wet. Superoxide dismutase is [00:12:55] similar. It doesn't stop the rain of free radicals. They're a natural byproduct of [00:13:00] ATP.
Dave: If you stop them, you're dead.
Catharine: Exactly. But it converts them into [00:13:05] harmless water and oxygen. So it's like providing your mitochondria with a big golf [00:13:10] umbrella so they're not damaged. Yay. So, everything's easy peasy, [00:13:15] working fine until you're 30, and then boom.
Dave: Why 30? What happens at [00:13:20] 30?
Catharine: So, here's the cool, and I was curious about this too.
Why does everything start falling apart at [00:13:25] 30? Well, we have been on Earth for 2 million years. That's a [00:13:30] billion.
Music: Oh, you mean humans or life? Humans. Humans
Catharine: [00:13:35] 2 million years, and evolutionarily, up until a couple hundred years ago. [00:13:40] We died at 30. Our bodies are programmed to [00:13:45] die at 30.
Dave: You mean Mother Nature wants us to die to get out of the way for the next generation?
Catharine: Pretty much. Well, she's
Dave: [00:13:50] mean.
Catharine: Yeah, yeah, well, I know. Well, she didn't know we were going to live longer. She didn't know there was [00:13:55] biohacking. She didn't know there was electricity and all these things. So, so in the last couple of hundred years, we have been living longer, [00:14:00] way past 30. But our body is preparing us after 30 for [00:14:05] death.
That's why you're, for women, our estrogen drops. This is why [00:14:10] melatonin starts dropping. It doesn't think we're going to need any sleep if we're dead. So our [00:14:15] bodies are evolutionary programmed to die at 30. And mother nature always looks for the [00:14:20] best value. And why would it want our bodies to be making all this [00:14:25] stuff?
It doesn't think we're going to be alive. So at 30, so we have no choice. You will not be able to [00:14:30] change this. Our evolutionary, we are programmed I'm gonna change it. Pardon me? I'm gonna change my
Dave: genes. [00:14:35] Well, I
Catharine: was gonna say, you and all these other things that will improve our life [00:14:40] span and health span, like red light and uh, algae for one of them, [00:14:45] will help us get through.
So, so the good news is we can defy our [00:14:50] biology. We absolutely can. But like I tell people, You need to know the recipe. [00:14:55] I mean, I don't cook very much. So when I go into the kitchen, I need a recipe and I need to know [00:15:00] what's going to go into the recipe. So I go in and get my ingredients. And if I follow the recipe, I can do pretty [00:15:05] well.
My sisters are great cooks in the kitchen. They don't even need a recipe. I need a recipe. [00:15:10] Everybody in our world now needs a recipe. They need to know [00:15:15] how their body works, so they know what to go and find to counteract [00:15:20] these evolutionary, um, programs that are built in because you can defy them. [00:15:25] You can create for me a great souffle if I wanted to, if I have the recipe.
You [00:15:30] can live well and long if you know what to do. And that's why I love what you do, Dave, [00:15:35] because you really help people understand what's available to them. Because once [00:15:40] you get these things in your system, you're, you're good. You're good. And that's why I want [00:15:45] people to understand when you're going beyond what you thought algae was because it has the nutrients [00:15:50] that are missing in once you get to 30.
And we're going to talk that, talk people [00:15:55] through that.
Dave: Okay. So is it nutrient depletion that happens [00:16:00] around 30? We run out of something or? Is it some other process?
Catharine: [00:16:05] Well, it's, it's not necessarily, we are experiencing nutrient depletion in our lifestyle now, but that's [00:16:10] not what's going on. It's, um, it's just like, you know, you have a timer.
When you [00:16:15] turn a timer on to do anything, whether you're in the sauna or you're cooking, when the [00:16:20] timer is done, You know, in the sauna, it turns the heat off.
Dave: So is it like [00:16:25] telomeres, or we just don't know what the time is?
Catharine: Well, it's programmed into our cell biology, just like [00:16:30] skin's turnover slows down as you get older.
Um, uh, [00:16:35] certain animals, you know, the leaves turn different colors. Well, it's photosynthesis. But, [00:16:40] uh, it's.
Dave: Is it different in men and women?
Catharine: No. All humans [00:16:45] have this programming. But women get hit extra hard because [00:16:50] at the same time they're losing the superoxide dismutase, which everybody loses, they're [00:16:55] also losing estrogen.
And estrogen acts as an antioxidant in the [00:17:00] mitochondria. Yep. And because your brain has the most mitochondria per cell, two million, and I can give you the [00:17:05] scientific references for that, um, you've, people know that. [00:17:10] Um, depression and Alzheimer's and dementia are more prevalent in [00:17:15] women. And that's because women are getting hit harder.
The mitochondria are being more [00:17:20] damaged more frequently than men because of the loss of estrogen. Um, and so, [00:17:25] because you don't have that protection of the estrogen anymore. So
Dave: I know we're getting, we're [00:17:30] moving all over the place here, but it's good. Yeah, this is like, why does it happen and what can we do about it?
Yeah.[00:17:35]
It's funny, because [00:17:40] guys have less estrogen, but we also die eight years earlier, and some of [00:17:45] that is probably from excess iron, because guys don't have occasion to bleed every month. [00:17:50] But, some of that is estrogen, and I had a recent episode where we talked about [00:17:55] microdosing estrogen in men as we age, because it's cardioprotective.
Yes. Just very low [00:18:00] doses, not enough to feminize you or grow boobs or whatever, but just enough to keep their [00:18:05] cardiovascular system working. Right. And it turns out it has a pro libido effect, just like testosterone. has a pro libido [00:18:10] effect in women or in men, but getting those things working and what's [00:18:15] behind the estrogen decline is that right between 30, really [00:18:20] 35 is where it gets really bad is you're in women, especially the DHEA and pregnenolone, [00:18:25] which are precursors to estrogen.
Those drop off and those are anti stress compounds. So [00:18:30] women are still making normal adrenaline and cortisol, which are necessary, but now the balancing is gone. It's [00:18:35] gone. Correct. And directly. causes mitochondrial stress, [00:18:40] which creates more of these free radicals, more of this SO. [00:18:45] Right. So you
Catharine: start to see how everything is so connected and it's so finely tuned, but, [00:18:50] uh, and it can go off the tuning, just like a piano can go off tuning in [00:18:55] humidity, but you can tune it back.
So the nutrients that are missing So, um, I'm not saying after the [00:19:00] age of 30, especially superoxidized dismutase, which I believe is the most critical one. [00:19:05] Just like you can tune a piano, you can tune it back, but you need to find it. And you [00:19:10] can't get medicinal amounts of superoxidized dismutase from any other food.
[00:19:15] There's a teeny bit in, in, um, uh, sprouts, but they get damaged in digestion. This [00:19:20] is why I like spirulina and chlorella so much, because they're superoxidized dismutase is in [00:19:25] both of them. Um, More in spirulina, but certainly it's a very high amount in chlorella. [00:19:30] And I like spirulina the best because it's, uh, an, it's a, um, bacteria, so there's no cilia as well.[00:19:35]
But the bottom line is you need this stuff called superoxidizumatase because it's the [00:19:40] golf umbrella that's protecting your free, your mitochondria from all that free radical damage and you [00:19:45] no longer have it. after the age of 40. And there's no surprise to me, that's exactly when chronic [00:19:50] disease really accelerates.
That's when metabolic health issues, um, brain fog, [00:19:55] weight gain, um, heart attacks, cancer, all of this [00:20:00] escalates after 40. And my theory is, is because this is exactly when the mitochondria [00:20:05] escalates. tank because they're getting damaged by so many free radicals. They used to have the [00:20:10] protection from that is gone because their body isn't making it anymore.
And there are [00:20:15] 25, 000 scientific papers documenting how superoxidase mutase reduces [00:20:20] inflammation, protects you from, um, any kind of dementia, protects you from heart disease, but [00:20:25] nobody seems to know that you can find it. In spirulina and chlorella, if it's not [00:20:30] exposed to high heat.
Dave: And that if is a big if.
And so I have two little [00:20:35] stories about this that are super relevant. I was, and I'm [00:20:40] ashamed to say this, I was a devout vegan at one time in my life. Anything to lose [00:20:45] that hundred pounds. And during that time, like, oh, I've heard spirulina is good for me. So I would [00:20:50] take a lot of spirulina and it didn't do anything.
So I was a full on [00:20:55] spirulina skeptic. And it was our last interview where you walk through, well, of course that [00:21:00] spirulina didn't work. It's because it was exposed to heat, which turned off all the enzymes, which is why it's important. So [00:21:05] precision in manufacturing, you've got that with energy bits. But, The other thing [00:21:10] I don't think I've ever talked about is I became aware of SOD and Super [00:21:15] Oxide dismutase or sorry, and super oxide and superoxide dismutase.[00:21:20]
Oh geez. When I was studying chronic fatigue and what was going on with me. Yeah. And now everyone with long COVID [00:21:25] has the same thing. So I thought, oh, I must have too many free radicals. So I found [00:21:30] some laboratory source of straight SOD and I took a bunch of it, and I have never felt [00:21:35] sicker in my life.
Catharine: Yeah. Let, uh, can you
Dave: predict what happened?
Catharine: Well, if it was lab made, [00:21:40] so it's not natural, so it's turning off things that should be turning on.
Dave: I don't know that I could say because it's [00:21:45] natural or not natural if it's the same compound, but what happened was I took a [00:21:50] larger dose of it all at once, and It's like if you have a [00:21:55] battery, it has a positive and a negative terminal, right?
So I took so much of it that it was like I [00:22:00] disconnected half of the battery, right? Because I was turning off all of the necessary [00:22:05] free radicals at a rate far in excess of what would happen if I took it from a natural source. [00:22:10] Right, right. So I just went through three days of like the worst brain fog and fatigue.
I could just [00:22:15] barely walk. It was like bleh. We know you've gotta have some oxidative stress, correct? [00:22:20] Yes. Or you're dead. Yes. In fact, life is based on ox redox, which is oxidative [00:22:25] stress, and then that redox side, which SOD is a part of. So [00:22:30] my experiments with energy bits, which is your spirulina brand that doesn't have all the heat [00:22:35] processing, that's just endemic in the industry.
You feel a difference, but it's not the, [00:22:40] I stopped oxidative. processes in my cells to stop [00:22:45] life, what you're doing is you're supporting it. So you have an even amount, like on a battery of plus and minus.
Catharine: It's [00:22:50] what it does is it optimizes the, the, the balance, the, it [00:22:55] optimizes everything that should be going on in the mitochondria that used to go on when the [00:23:00] SOD was being produced naturally by your body.
It just, it's, it just, [00:23:05] it's like tuning that piano again. It starts to work again. It's like having your [00:23:10] lights turned on back on in your brain and your body. Now everything can work. There's no overload. I [00:23:15] think we talked a little bit last time about methylene blue, how it's a, it's a lab produced um, [00:23:20] um, substance.
That overrides the mm-hmm . Um, the, the cell [00:23:25] functioning and what's found, the super oxidation says, and, and other nutrients found algae [00:23:30] don't override anything. They just clear the way, in fact, so that everything can start [00:23:35] working better. It's like that recipe again. Everything is in proper balance, [00:23:40] so it's optimized and that's what you want.
That's why when you take this, um, we call the [00:23:45] spi Leon Energy Bits 'cause it gives you energy, but it's not a stimulant. With stimulants, you get a rush and a [00:23:50] crash. And I say it's like putting paper on a fire. With spirulina, it's like putting a log on the fire, [00:23:55] because the energy is at this cellular level.
It's just very [00:24:00] gentle energy, and it's functioning, it just clears everything, um, all the junk in [00:24:05] your trunk, as I say, uh, so that everything can work better.
Dave: Well, I, uh, yeah. I think you're [00:24:10] living proof that, that there's something to this. There's something
Catharine: happening.
Dave: Yeah, exactly. Like your, your brain, [00:24:15] you have all this stuff just sitting in your head and that's pretty unusual.
Catharine: So you were asking me [00:24:20] again about the, um, the, um, uh, in the, in the cell, the mitochondria, how we have all this [00:24:25] hydrogen peroxide. So we'll go, we'll go back to the electron transport chain where all this [00:24:30] activity is occurring, where you get the production of the ATP and the byproduct of the free radicals.[00:24:35]
And just to help people to understand what this electron transport chain is. [00:24:40] molecules are embedded in the inner membrane of the mitochondria, and [00:24:45] the way the energy is created is very similar to what you would see in a relay race. [00:24:50] Everyone's seen a relay race where you have the runner, and they pass a baton to the next runner, who passes it to the [00:24:55] next runner, and they Try to cross the finish line first.
Well, in the electron transport chain, [00:25:00] instead of runners, you have these protein molecules. And instead of [00:25:05] passing a baton, they pass an electron. Okay? So, and instead of [00:25:10] crossing the finish line, the goal is to get to the end. to this final stage, which is called cytochrome C [00:25:15] oxidase, where there's, and you have to, we'll talk about this because you need oxygen to, and that's when [00:25:20] ATP is produced.
So as long as the electrons are passed, like in a race from one molecule, [00:25:25] from one of the proteins, you get ATP. But here's what's hap, what happens. When you start to [00:25:30] have too many free radicals, which occur from a variety of reasons, stress uh, [00:25:35] EMFs, um, toxins, the electron transport chain Where the [00:25:40] molecules are, you know, supposed to be close to one another, they cause damage.
And so when [00:25:45] the mitochondria get damaged, it expands. And when it [00:25:50] expands, those runners, the molecule, get further and further and [00:25:55] further apart from one another. So two things happen. Just like in a relay race, if you can't get up to [00:26:00] the next runner, you can't pass the baton. In the electron transport chain, when the [00:26:05] molecules are farther apart from one another, They can't pass the electron, so they leak [00:26:10] out.
They can't make the pass. It's like Tom Brady couldn't make the pass. So, two things [00:26:15] happen. Now, you have less energy because the electron couldn't make the, the disc couldn't make the [00:26:20] pass, and those electrons don't just disappear. They turn into free [00:26:25] radicals, which, what? Damages the mitochondria even more, which, what?
Causes the [00:26:30] expansion even more, which, what? Reduces the ATP even more. Then, eventually, the [00:26:35] mitochondria. explodes. It's called necrosis. And all that, all those free radicals, [00:26:40] all of the stuff that was in there spreads to the next mitochondria spreads to the next [00:26:45] cell. This is why you have accelerated aging.
This is how you get chronic disease. And it's [00:26:50] all because the mitochondria, the electron transport chain, it starts to expand. They can't [00:26:55] close the loop to get the electron across, doesn't disappear. Free radicals, free radicals, free [00:27:00] radicals. Okay.
Dave: You've got a couple really important points in there. When [00:27:05] mitochondria die or fragment, mitochondrial fragments and extracellular [00:27:10] ATP, which happens as a result of that, well, the other mitochondria, they're all a community.
Catharine: Oh, [00:27:15] I know. I was like, hey, what's going on over there, bro? Hey, don't, don't speak. Read your stuff over here, but it does . Yeah.
Dave: And [00:27:20] it, it would be like if we're driving down the expressway and like a human leg hits your windshield, you're like, ah. Like what is [00:27:25] going on at that from a mitochondria perspective, like a piece of, another one of us just hit me in the [00:27:30] forehead and it's not a good thing.
It's not a good thing. So it creates cellular stress and then all the other [00:27:35] mitochondria and. instead of focusing on energy production, they're going to go into an inflammatory state. [00:27:40] And there's, there's evidence that supports this. So you realize, I'm managing a community [00:27:45] of, you know, hundreds of billions of ancient bacteria floating around inside the body, and they're all talking to each other [00:27:50] long before I get to think about it.
Catharine: Yeah, exactly.
Dave: So, that fragmentation is under control. [00:27:55] We didn't talk about enough in biohacking and aging. And the other thing that you talk about, which no one talks [00:28:00] about, is the effect of the size of the cell. So the swelling of [00:28:05] cells, something happens when you fly, or things like that, and this isn't just like you're getting muffin top, [00:28:10] which can just be water outside of cells.
This is the cell itself expanding.
Music: Right.
Dave: So, [00:28:15] mitochondria is making electricity, we have this electron transport chain. I view it [00:28:20] as a wire, and it works right, it's just carrying electricity. Exactly. But when the [00:28:25] insulation on the wire frays, it's like you've got this cord in your bathroom. It's
like
[00:28:30] having shocks, you know, electrical.
Yeah.
And now, like, there's leaks, so now the electricity is getting out in the water on the floor like, Ah! [00:28:35] But it's not getting to your hair dryer. Right. Right? Right. So, we have these leaks, and those leaks [00:28:40] are causing problems. It's like fire. Yeah, and every leak. Creates more [00:28:45] fraying of the installation on this.
It's not really a wire, but you can visualize it that way. [00:28:50] So we have this double problem. Yeah. One is, okay, we're losing electrons, [00:28:55] but.
Catharine: And you're losing energy.
Dave: We're losing energy, but there's something else that comes out of [00:29:00] my time as a computer hacker network engineer. So it's not like the electron [00:29:05] just moves like slowly from one to the other electrons bounce Yeah, they go back and forth [00:29:10] millions of times a second.
So you're thinking okay My mitochondria was this big and it's only [00:29:15] 10 percent bigger 10 percent bigger times a million vibrations back and forth [00:29:20] That actually adds huge amounts of what we call latency. So gamers know what I'm talking about, [00:29:25] right? So if your bandwidth has low latency, it gets there quickly.
You can have high bandwidth and you can [00:29:30] have high latency and it just takes forever and your calls are jittery. And that's because of that [00:29:35] lag time. So cell swelling equals lag time in mitochondria and a small amount of swelling [00:29:40] is a huge decrease in efficiency of the system. And what did we say at the beginning?
Oh. [00:29:45] Okay. In aging, 48 percent of people under age 40 have early onset [00:29:50] mitochondrial insufficiency. That is it. It's mitochondrial fragmentation and swelling [00:29:55] of mitochondria. 100 percent
Catharine: over the age of 40 have
Dave: mitochondrial dysfunction. And then we get this [00:30:00] swelling, get the free radical production. Right.
And what you're saying is you can use algae. [00:30:05] Use energy bits in order to manage that insulation on the wire so that you [00:30:10] repair it. And if some electrons leak, they don't do any damage. And over time, the body has enough energy to [00:30:15] fix them.
Catharine: Yeah.
Dave: Okay. What are the components of algae that do that?
Catharine: So, um, the most [00:30:20] important one is this antioxidant called superoxidizmutase, which is the one that would, when [00:30:25] you have all that excess free radicals, normally pre you know, before the age of [00:30:30] 30, says, Oh, there's too many free radicals here, but we're, we're, we're covered because we've got, we've got, [00:30:35] we're going to convert them into oxygen and water.
Although there is, um, uh, an [00:30:40] intermediary stage where it's converted into, uh, uh, hydrogen peroxide. So, [00:30:45] so you've got the superoxide dismutase taking the free radical, the superoxide, which is [00:30:50] very damaging, converts it into oxygen and, uh, Hydrogen [00:30:55] peroxide. And then there's another step. The hydrogen peroxide needs [00:31:00] glutathione to then be converted to H2O.
So now you have this very [00:31:05] damaging free radical converted ultimately to oxygen and water because of the super oxidase [00:31:10] problem solved. So it's like having that big golf umbrella up. And I mentioned the [00:31:15] glutathione because. Glutathione is a master antioxidant and, um, [00:31:20] in, uh, in other parts of your cells, you could use [00:31:25] catalase to convert the hydrogen peroxide into water, but no [00:31:30] mitochondria have it.
cataleys except the liver and your heart. So the [00:31:35] vast majority of your mitochondria rely on glutathione to convert that hydrogen [00:31:40] peroxide into, into, uh, into water. And algae has the highest concentration of it. Oh, [00:31:45] okay. So
Dave: algae's got the highest concentration. And some people have heard of catalase [00:31:50] because the formulas you can buy for topical hair use to reverse [00:31:55] graying usually have catalase in them, or sometimes orally, because hydrogen [00:32:00] peroxide is a part of this.
So it sounds complex, but it's not that, it's, it's not that [00:32:05] hard to understand if you think about it. Okay, you have these leaking electrons. Those are free [00:32:10] radicals. And the body says, Oh, no, I need SOD. So it makes SOD. Okay. And the [00:32:15] SOD turns it into peroxide, which, unfortunately, oxidant. Not
Catharine: [00:32:20] as bad, but still pro oxidant, yep.
Dave: And then you need glutathione for that step.
Catharine: Yes, to [00:32:25] bring it, to neutralize it even further to oxygen. But it's, it's even more complicated. This is [00:32:30] why nature and the body are just so fascinating to me. I, I've turned into a total geek. [00:32:35] I, I, I've laid in my life, and I am so so in the rabbit hole and I want to help [00:32:40] other people understand the outcome of my rabbit hole without having to go down there themselves.
So [00:32:45] here's what gets even more complicated. So SOD is [00:32:50] found in three parts of the around the cell. One is outside the cell, one is inside that what's [00:32:55] called cytoplasm, and the third one is inside the mitochondria itself.
Dave: So are these different types of SOD? [00:33:00] It's one
Catharine: type of SOD but it's It has what's called a cofactor and the [00:33:05] cofactor is different in the different areas.
And which means it needs this other thing to [00:33:10] turn on to work.
Dave: Okay, so tell me the three places the SOD are in the
Catharine: body again. The extracellular, which is [00:33:15] outside the cell, intercellular,
Dave: Inside the cell.
Catharine: Inside the cell and [00:33:20] inside the mitochondria.
Dave: And they do different things in each location.
Catharine: Yes.
Dave: Yes.
Okay, that's cool.
Catharine: Yes. So the [00:33:25] one, and they've done exam, they've done tests because the one that's inside the mitochondria [00:33:30] requires manganese. The other two require copper and zinc. They've done all [00:33:35] these lab tests to find out with mice and whatever. If you reduce. That's the S. O. D. [00:33:40] They're called, uh, two, one and three, that are outside the cell and inside the cell.
The, the mice [00:33:45] will still live. No, no real, you know, they're not doing great, but they don't, they don't die. You pull out the [00:33:50] S. O. D. in the mitochondria that requires the manganese, they die within hours. You cannot [00:33:55] live Without, and the SOD will not work properly without the manganese. [00:34:00] Algae has the highest, is the daily requirement of, there's not technically an RDA, but the recommended [00:34:05] amount is the amount that's in the algae.
In fact, chlorella has twice the amount. Now, why is the manganese [00:34:10] so important? Because if the manganese is not there to be the co [00:34:15] factor with the SOD, the SOD goes, well, you manganese. I'm going to grab [00:34:20] something else. I'm going to grab iron. It grabs iron and then it becomes pro [00:34:25] inflammatory. So you need to have manganese with your SOD.
[00:34:30] Of course, SOD is the highest concentration is in algae. You need manganese, highest concentration [00:34:35] in, in algae. So it will work to reduce the free radical [00:34:40] to the hydrogen peroxide, which then needs glutathione, which by the way, is also in the [00:34:45] algae. See how beautiful it is. It's crazy how this [00:34:50] works. And when you This is why I even wrote a little book called The Algae Love Story.
[00:34:55] I am so in love with algae,
Dave: because it's so
Catharine: amazing to me what it does.
Dave: If [00:35:00] I'm a mitochondrial fetishist, you're an algae
Catharine: fetishist. There's a term, Jack [00:35:05] Cruz, who I think you know of, he created this term, the mitochondriac.
Dave: Oh [00:35:10] no, no, I created that term, he borrowed it, and then got angry about it. Okay, okay, well I
Catharine: give credit to you, the [00:35:15] mitochondriac, I am a mitochondriac, and I am certainly an algae, algae ac, I don't know what [00:35:20] we'll have to figure this out.
Yeah, I
Dave: made a Sure the bi this years ago, and he's like, that's, anyway, yeah. So [00:35:25] yeah,
Catharine: he's, he's kind of an interesting character. But, uh, there you go. Not in a good way. You are in a good way, . Thank you. [00:35:30]
So, yeah, so, so isn't it fascinating? Yeah. Yeah. So, so [00:35:35] you have these free radicals. If you've got the SOD you got your umbrella back.
It, it converts it [00:35:40] into oxygen and water with an interim's. step of hydrogen peroxide, but then you, [00:35:45] but then if you have the glutathione, then you get the water. So you've got the oxygen in the water. Now [00:35:50] that is the main reason why people have loved superoxide dismutase because [00:35:55] it reduces the free radicals.
But there's two more amazing benefits. Before
Dave: we get [00:36:00] to the SOD, other benefits, I think you might have a movie.
Catharine: Yeah, [00:36:05]
Dave: you might've glossed over another major component of aging. Uh, and [00:36:10] I think I mentioned this in Superhuman, my longevity book, but probably not in enough detail. [00:36:15] So, free radicals, as we know, you gotta have some or you die.
That's right, ozone [00:36:20] therapy is good for you.
Music: Yes.
Dave: Um, and your body makes these things, these [00:36:25] antioxidants naturally, like it makes glutathione. But, Why do [00:36:30] men die before women do, on average? Well, earlier I mentioned, well, women are getting [00:36:35] rid of iron when they have their monthly cycle.
Catharine: Okay, I know where you're going with this.
That could be part of it. Okay, [00:36:40] yeah.
Dave: So what that means, though, is that if the body says, if I have enough [00:36:45] manganese, I'll grab onto that. And if I don't have manganese, I grab onto iron. Which becomes [00:36:50] pro inflammatory. And it does, and it's going to do that more in men. That is true. That's fascinating. That is [00:36:55] really, I've, wow.
Yeah,
Catharine: that's why guys. I think you're onto something. That's why we give blood. [00:37:00]
Again.
Dave: So if your ferritin is high, that's not good for aging, and what that [00:37:05] means is that you're basically oxidizing iron. You're rusting from the inside out. Exactly. And the way to fix that would [00:37:10] be to have adequate manganese, which is a trace mineral.
I think that could be. And it's an energy base, right? That
Catharine: could be. [00:37:15] That is fascinating.
Dave: So what we're saying is men need algae more than women. Exactly.
Catharine: [00:37:20] Well,
Dave: I can't believe you'd say that, Catherine, geez, you know, wow, [00:37:25] that
Catharine: seems a little bit
sexist. Come on, come on on board. We're here for you. We're here for
you.
[00:37:30] Even though your mitochondria, all the DNA in mitochondria came exclusively from women. Uh, [00:37:35]
Dave: that's a fair point. Yeah. You can thank your mom for your mitochondria. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Catharine: But that is [00:37:40] really interesting. I'm going to dig into that. Oh, another rabbit hole. Yeah, that's an [00:37:45] important
Dave: point. Well, no, you have a third interview.
You laid it out there, Catherine. But I [00:37:50] had never thought about, you know, what do you normally do? Well, drop iron, right? And being [00:37:55] anemic is bad. And women oftentimes have problems with anemia much more than men, unless they're vegan men, in which case they're screwed [00:38:00] in lots of ways. Right. But I'm very intrigued because [00:38:05] The idea of adding manganese in the form of energy bits is a really cool [00:38:10] strategy to not have problems with iron.
And I bet your ferritin would drop, but I don't know for sure.
Catharine: Yeah, I don't [00:38:15] know either, but it'd be worth exploring. But the great, and here's again why I love algae so much. It's not like taking [00:38:20] individual supplements because sometimes you can overload on one and you have to worry about taking it at different [00:38:25] times with food or without food.
Mother Nature has put all these components [00:38:30] together. So maybe you're taking it for the manganese, but you're also getting the superoxidase material. Maybe you're taking the [00:38:35] superoxidase, but you're also getting excess protein, or maybe you're taking it for your skin, your skin [00:38:40] improvement because it will, you know, has more collagen and protects the elastic because [00:38:45] it has K2 that moves excess calcium.
It doesn't matter what you do with algae, it will, [00:38:50] you may take it for one reason, but it will give you so many other benefits. But that was one I've [00:38:55] never really thought of before, so. Super cool. But it is interesting to think, because the body is going to, it's going [00:39:00] to, the mitochondria, they're working and they're talking to one another.
And if they don't have enough manganese, they're going to, [00:39:05] Like you said, they're going to grab the iron, which is then going to start rusting you from the inside. [00:39:10] And so, um, you need to have that, otherwise you're not going to get the full benefit and you'll just end up with [00:39:15] more, um, you won't get the reduction of the superoxide at all because [00:39:20] it can't, it becomes pro inflammatory in its own right.
Dave: So in the very beginnings of [00:39:25] the biohacking movement I talked about liposomal and glutathione. And [00:39:30] as we've just learned from all this research you've done, if we're not talking about SOD [00:39:35] and glutathione together, we're missing a part of the puzzle. And I do think that [00:39:40] there's a case for bringing glutathione levels up throughout the body, especially [00:39:45] inside your cells.
And we've had like a really cool interview with Nayan Patel talking [00:39:50] about what's happening, how to get into the cells. And there's two ways to get glutathione into the [00:39:55] cells. One is, it's give the cells the building blocks they need. And those building [00:40:00] blocks are important, and you can get normal physiological concentrations.
And then the other way [00:40:05] is to get levels beyond what the body would do with its enzymes, and there can be [00:40:10] benefits to that. And that's to bring in exogenous glutathione, like Nian was [00:40:15] talking about. So what you have in algae that's really interesting, though, [00:40:20] is There's those three aminos that are necessary.
What are they?
Catharine: Glycine, cysteine, [00:40:25] and glutamic acid.
Dave: And they're all in algae.
Catharine: Correct. And so they create [00:40:30] glutathione. And here's the other interesting thing, Dave. The mitochondria cannot [00:40:35] make glutathione. It absolutely needs it to be brought into the [00:40:40] cell. And so if it's in the algae, then you're getting the glutathione that you need for [00:40:45] that final stage of turning the hydrogen peroxide into glutathione.
into oxygen. And [00:40:50] we're going to, you know, later on tell how important that is in so many ways, both [00:40:55] for ATP and for protecting the cell from things like cancer.[00:41:00]
Dave: Glutathione is such an interesting molecule [00:41:05] because if you just eat it, it doesn't work because it gets digested into its three amino [00:41:10] acids, but then those get absorbed and then it gets rebuilt into glutathione inside the cells. [00:41:15] Right. And so with algae, with what you've got in energy bits, because they're not heat [00:41:20] processed, you've got.
S. O. D. You've got that manganese, which you need, [00:41:25] and you've got the building blocks of glutathione. So, and they're in the right ratios. Correct. And on [00:41:30] top of that, you can add in whatever else you want. You could take more manganese if you want to. You could take more S. O. D., [00:41:35] which, like I said, that's not a good idea.
Get your S. O. D. from your energy bits. You cerulean or chlorine. No, [00:41:40] you really don't. And then you can also add in glutathione, and if you're, you know, drinking some alcohol, you You're not going to [00:41:45] be able to make enough to protect your liver, so take some glutathione. Right, right. But we've all, in [00:41:50] the history of biohacking, we've always been like glutathione, glutathione, and I think that we missed the SOD side because [00:41:55] you couldn't really buy it.
And you're like, uh, I've got it in my energy beds because I processed them the right way. [00:42:00] Correct. There you go.
Catharine: And with the glutathione, what, uh, chlorella is known as being a detoxing [00:42:05] algae, uh, because it attaches to all the heavy metals, alcohol.
Dave: Hey, we just switched [00:42:10] gears. There's like a hundred kinds of algae, but there's two that we use.
One is spirulina and one is chlorella. And [00:42:15] now we're switching to chlorella.
Catharine: Yes. We've been, well, well, all the things, the superoxide dismutase, [00:42:20] glutathione, manganese, they're in both the spirulina and chlorella. They're in both algae. Okay. [00:42:25] They're just in more concentrated. Some of them, like. Spirulina has more [00:42:30] superoxidizmutase.
Chlorella has more glutathione. But they [00:42:35] both have both, all of these critical building blocks. And so it [00:42:40] really depends on where your area of greatest need is. If you're focusing on the detox piece, [00:42:45] but you still want some, you know, mitochondria support through the SOD, Then [00:42:50] let's do the chlorella because it has more glutathione, so it will, and it pulls [00:42:55] out other toxins.
Dave: I missed that in our last interview, that, that subtle difference. [00:43:00] And this is why, if I'm going to have sushi, I take the Energy Bits chlorella [00:43:05] because it's better at detoxing the mercury that's in the fish, so it doesn't go to my brain, and I actually noticed a difference in [00:43:10] that.
Catharine: Yeah, we encourage people to take them separately because some they, the spirulina will give you more [00:43:15] energy mentally, physically does have more S.
O. D. So, and because your brain has the most [00:43:20] mitochondria, I refer to spirulina as brain food and then [00:43:25] chlorella because it's a detoxing wellness algae that builds your immune system and pulls out toxins, kills [00:43:30] bacteria, has fiber that feeds the gut. It's very much a gut health [00:43:35] algae. OK. So they, but of course, su, you know, mitochondria are everywhere.
The only place they're not is [00:43:40] in your blood, but they're everywhere else. And so, you'll always get the benefit of [00:43:45] superoxidazimutase, mitochondrial health, but you'll get, depending on where your greatest health is needs are, um, you should [00:43:50] really be taking both. And we do encourage you to take spirulina in the morning and afternoon or pre workout [00:43:55] because that's when you need energy and focus.
Because as you pointed out earlier, your body can't store [00:44:00] ATP. So if you need energy to do brain surgery or, um, be at your [00:44:05] show to stay on point, you need spirulina. And, and then in the evening, [00:44:10] we encourage people to take the chlorella because when you are sick, Sleeping. And this gets back to some of the things I do, which [00:44:15] is I, I treasure my sleep a great deal because [00:44:20] detoxes.
Whether you had cocktails or you were working out or you're [00:44:25] exposed as we all are to various toxins. That's when your body is getting rid of it. And it also [00:44:30] stimulates, chlorella also stimulates what I call peristalsis, which is a bowel movement, um, [00:44:35] because when you detox, you do it through breath, sweat, urine, and bowel movements.
And, [00:44:40] uh, most people frankly are constipated. So they're, they're, uh, you gotta get rid of that junk in your trunk and the [00:44:45] chlorella will, will do that. So, and I know we're sort of doing a little segue away from mitochondria there, but I do want people to [00:44:50] know that chlorella has all of these benefits, but it also has its own little, it's like having [00:44:55] kids, you know, you, you love them both, uh, but they both have different talents.
Maybe one's a great [00:45:00] artist and one's a great, uh, mathematician. So, but you love them both. Both algae will love, [00:45:05] that's why I wrote this book, you know, the algae love story. It will love you back to, to, to life and to, [00:45:10] to health, but do it with different, different Sort of nuances.
Dave: Okay. And there's a lot of [00:45:15] nuances in the production of these things, um, that we're gonna get into.
[00:45:20] What I wanna understand though, is you, you mentioned three times a day. Do I really have to take it three [00:45:25] times? Is two times gonna work? I'm lazy. Like if I'm Sperling, like I don't, I don't wanna take up every meal like I got. I got [00:45:30]
Catharine: you. Just need to take them every day. Um,
Dave: every day. But it was twice a day for spirulina.
Gonna do it?
Catharine: [00:45:35] No, you could take 10 tablets. We'll get you what we call. It will nourish you. Okay. 20 [00:45:40] will give you more, uh, improved benefits, and 30 would be optimal. You could have 30 for [00:45:45] lunch. You could take them all in one day. You could, you could spread them out. If you want the most improvement in your focus [00:45:50] and energy, 30, and, and for therapeutic amounts, 30 is really what you want.
Okay. So
Dave: 30 [00:45:55] in the morning. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And if you're a constant.
Catharine: Swallow them down, chew them, you know, most people don't chew [00:46:00] them because they're so loaded with protein that they do stick to your teeth a bit, but
Dave: yeah, you'll get green teeth from it. [00:46:05] So, okay. So you take 30 in the morning. If you're economizing, you could take 20 or 10.
Okay. [00:46:10] Something like that. All right. So that's morning and maybe you spread them out if you're really working on it. [00:46:15] And then at night, how much chlorella?
Catharine: Again, 10 will give you the immune [00:46:20] support, but 20 or 30 are what you need for detox and cleansing. Okay. [00:46:25] So, um, and honestly, the chlorella, which we call recovery bits, they taste pretty good.
They taste more like a [00:46:30] sunflower seed. I sprinkle sea salt on them or I have them with pistachio nuts.
Dave: I've [00:46:35] literally given them to my kids forever, even though they're little, and they would just eat them like little green [00:46:40] candies, right? Big green smiles and
Catharine: stuff. Yeah, they think it's fun because it turns their tongue green.[00:46:45]
So, um, it depends on, so that's why we say you're, it's food. So it's your choice. What [00:46:50] some people need one egg, some need four. So, uh, 10 is kind of a minimum and kids could [00:46:55] take them to give them same amount or half the amount of an adult or, and pets, pets love them. [00:47:00] That's the true sign of something that's good for
Dave: you.
I gave it to my dog Merlin every day. [00:47:05] He would get some chlorella.
Catharine: Yeah.
Dave: All right. And we just put one in his food and they like to eat grass [00:47:10] anyway. So he always liked the energy bits. Okay.
Catharine: Get them three or four or five or 10 if they're bigger. [00:47:15] So
Dave: it literally was 15 too, so
Catharine: yeah, good stuff.
Dave: I think it helped that that was a [00:47:20] regular daily occurrence.
Catharine: Yeah. Yeah. Do
Dave: you make one specifically like energy bits for pets? No, [00:47:25]
Catharine: they they're, they're, they're part of the family, so, um, we [00:47:30] You know, no, no, we don't, but we do sell some to veterinarians, just like we sell some to biological [00:47:35] dentists, um, because they use it for the, the chlorella for, for detox. But yeah, they're good for, this is [00:47:40] why I love, again, love them so much because there's no drug interactions and they're good for every single age group, um, [00:47:45] whether they're children, teenagers, adults, or seniors.
Okay. I guess I'm technically a [00:47:50] senior.
Dave: I mean, you're going to have to, you're going to have to show your [00:47:55] ID for that.
Catharine: Right, right.
Dave: No.
Catharine: Should we get back to mitochondria though, because I don't want to talk about, [00:48:00] no, you don't want to, okay. All right.
Dave: There's something else that I think is really important [00:48:05] because as I mentioned, I use spirulina and I didn't get any [00:48:10] results.
Host: Yeah.
Dave: And so I was a spirulina skeptic until we talked and you're like, you got to do it right. [00:48:15] So. What's different in the way that you're making spirulina so that it works?
Catharine: [00:48:20] Okay. Energy based spirulina tablets are different because we do not use high heat in [00:48:25] our processing, which allows all of the nutrients to be preserved, particularly this critical one [00:48:30] called superoxidized dismutase, which will protect your mitochondria.
Boom.
Dave: Okay. That [00:48:35] makes so much sense. So you've eliminated that. Are there other things you're doing in the spirulina that's different?
Catharine: We also [00:48:40] grow it in very, in triple filtered spring mountain water, not the ocean. [00:48:45] This is really important because algae will absorb whatever's in the water. So if your water [00:48:50] is not clean.
clean whatever's there will get into the algae, sort of like having a goldfish [00:48:55] bowl. If you didn't change your water, poor Goldie's, uh, not doing well. So we, so [00:49:00] we have no toxins and we preserve all the nutrients and it's not just superoxidizing [00:49:05] taste that's preserved. There's a blue pigment in spirulina called phycocyanin, [00:49:10] P H Y C O C Y N A N.
This pigment isn't found anywhere else in [00:49:15] the, in the universe
Dave: just by algae
Catharine: and it's an antioxidant and it has [00:49:20] powerful properties like it kills it's proven to kill cancer cells [00:49:25] and i can walk you through the pathway it ejects what's called the cytochrome c molecule which [00:49:30] triggers capases which triggers apoptosis and cancer cells cannot go through apoptosis [00:49:35] so this thing so this is what's so cool i call it spirulina intelligent food because you have to be [00:49:40] intelligent to take it and it knows what to do in your body and Just as an example, when you have [00:49:45] a healthy cell, the blue pigment in spirulina, called [00:49:50] phycocyanin, is a helper cell in the electron transport chain.
I didn't mention these earlier. There's two helper cells. One's called [00:49:55] CoQ10, and the other one is called cytochrome c. In a healthy cell, the blue pigment in [00:50:00] spirulina can detect that it's a healthy cell. And what it does, it [00:50:05] speeds up the electrons moving across the electron chain. It's like having a Ferrari, vroom!
[00:50:10] This is one of the reasons why spirulina gives you energy and chlorella does not because it [00:50:15] speeds up that cytochrome c molecule, the blue pigment. However, in a [00:50:20] senescent cell or a cancer cell, the phycocyanin can detect that [00:50:25] and instead of speeding up the cytochrome c molecule, it ejects it, [00:50:30] which triggers something called capases, which triggers this thing called apoptosis, which is [00:50:35] cell death.
And this is incredible. And Chemotherapy [00:50:40] companies are using phycocyanin in their cancer treatments because then they can tell if the cancer [00:50:45] is being, uh, is being killed how they measure the amount of [00:50:50] cericumc in your serum, in your blood serum. And if it's there, it knows that, that, that, That's because the [00:50:55] cancer cells have been killed.
How cool is that? This pigment knows what to do in your [00:51:00] body without any instructions. That's going beyond the call of duty as far as I'm concerned. [00:51:05]
Dave: It is. And there's another piece here that you might have, you might have [00:51:10] gotten here in your research or not. I love it that we're talking about phycocyanin.
This is another one of [00:51:15] those things that just no one talks about it. I
Catharine: have another one to add on then. Maybe you've already got it. [00:51:20]
Dave: Phycocyanin. activates exactly the [00:51:25] same things that methylene blue does.
Okay.
But it does it in a way that's much more compatible with the [00:51:30] cell. Yes. So you could look at taking spirulina, as long as it has all the [00:51:35] components intact.
So we'll say energy bits. If you're taking that, you're getting some of the [00:51:40] benefits of methylene blue and methylene blue is a double edged sword. It's kind of like a big hammer and it's good [00:51:45] for many people, but it's not always good all the time. Yeah. But [00:51:50] phycocyanin, which is bioidentical to what our cells are using, that you can take.
Absolutely. [00:51:55] And so I think there's an argument for those of us who are saying, well, I want to microdose methylene blue. Well, you could [00:52:00] just take your spirulina and get phycocyanin that activates the same cytochrome C [00:52:05] pathways, which is super cool. Yeah.
Catharine: We were contacted by Dr. William Lee. [00:52:10] Oh yeah, he's been on the show.
Yes, and so, and he runs the angiogenesis uh, [00:52:15] organization, I think it's angio. org. He invited us to his conference a number of years ago because [00:52:20] he said, Did you know that spirulina, the blue phycocyanin in spirulina [00:52:25] has what's called anti angiogenesis properties? What does that mean? When you have [00:52:30] cancer or a tumor, basically, it needs more oxygen, it needs more nutrients.
So it literally [00:52:35] hijacks the blood vessels and reroutes them to feed the cancer or the tumor. [00:52:40] Phycocyanin is the traffic cop that says, Nope, not going there. It [00:52:45] stops that. It is able to prevent the movement of the blood vessels to [00:52:50] feed the tumor. That's called anti angiogenesis, because angiogenesis is the creation of blood [00:52:55] vessels.
And anti Prevents it so it stops the growth of blood vessels to [00:53:00] tumors amazing right and he knows his stuff and like he was on your show So he's a smart guy.
Dave: [00:53:05] So chlorella some of the stuff that I took Seemed like it was working better. I would get [00:53:10] more clarity and other times not so much and I never understood the difference so What is [00:53:15] important in chlorella processing to make it work?
Catharine: Chlorella needs to be grown [00:53:20] very carefully, even more carefully than spirulina. It actually, when it's [00:53:25] growing, you have to start it in a lab, in a small test tube, and then it gets to a certain stage, and then it grows to [00:53:30] a larger test tube, and then a larger test tube, and then a larger one, then you plant it outdoors in a [00:53:35] small pond, and then a larger pond.
It's very complicated. This is [00:53:40] why, You don't see chlorella being grown anywhere else in the world except in Asia [00:53:45] because it's taken them 40 years to figure out all of these growing techniques. So the [00:53:50] company that grows it for us is one of the oldest companies and they have [00:53:55] masterminded this growing technique.
So it's very complicated to grow. [00:54:00] We do not use high heat to dry the chlorella, which happens with a [00:54:05] lot of the other chlorella out there, which deactivates many of the nutrients. [00:54:10] High heat will kill and deactivate enzymes and pigments. And of [00:54:15] course, chlorella has the highest chlorophyll in the world.
Chlorophyll is very important because it's [00:54:20] builds your, um, your blood, the chemical composition of hemoglobin is virtually [00:54:25] identical to chlorophyll. The only difference is your hemoglobin has an iron atom in the middle and [00:54:30] chlorophyll has magnesium. Chlorella is called [00:54:35] chlorophyll.
Dave: It's a copper that you need as well.
Yes. And a copper. Yes. Right. And the copper is really important for [00:54:40] the other SOD, just as a little side note. Right. Okay. So you don't damage them with heat, but is there [00:54:45] anything else that chlorella needs?
Catharine: Well, then you have to crack the cell wall, um, because [00:54:50] spirulina does not have a cellulose wall because it's a bacteria.
Music: Chlorella
Catharine: has [00:54:55] the hardest cell, cellulose wall, which needs to be cracked because if you don't crack it, your [00:55:00] body cannot absorb the nutrients.
Dave: It's like eating a walnut still in its shell. Yes. Great.
Catharine: Exactly. Great [00:55:05] analogy. Now, the FDA requires you to sell cracked cell wall [00:55:10] chlorella in America. So I don't believe there's any available in America or North [00:55:15] America unless it is cracked.
But there are countries in the EU you can get uncracked [00:55:20] chlorella. Chlorella and, and I would say, well, why would you want to do that? Because your body [00:55:25] can't absorb the nutrients. There's other one more thing I want to tell, share with you is that [00:55:30] there are new growing techniques for both spirulina, but also particularly chlorella and they [00:55:35] grow it in glass jars.
tubes with LED lights. It's been called [00:55:40] fermented, um, chlorella. Now it's probably ultimately the long term way to [00:55:45] grow it because you can, it's protected because it's, you know, no environmental exposure, yada, yada, yada. But, [00:55:50] but they have found that the cell wall is softer. And if it's [00:55:55] softer, it's not going to be able to hold on to the toxins as well as the traditional [00:56:00] way of growing it.
Dave: Okay, so you reduce environmental stress on it, and it has But you don't have
Catharine: the same [00:56:05] efficacy. It
Dave: doesn't work as well.
Catharine: Correct. So we grow ours the traditional way. [00:56:10] Without high heat to dry it, cracking it correctly to preserve all the nutrients, [00:56:15] uh, and we make sure it's grown in triple filtered spring water, so no toxins.
I mean, you don't [00:56:20] want to take chlorella, which is supposed to be pulling out toxins, if it has toxins in it to start with.
Dave: That [00:56:25] says a lot. I know that you, your whole energy bits line, you're obsessive about [00:56:30] all these things. And I worry a lot about chlorella, because if it's just grown in seed, [00:56:35] Sea water has more mercury than ever before, and chlorella is a mercury [00:56:40] sponge.
And the mercury got there because of coal mining. You burn coal, and then you get mercury [00:56:45] in the water, and this is why fish is all contaminated with mercury. So if you're getting chlorella that was grown in the ocean, you don't [00:56:50] want to do that. Same with spirulina. And the other thing is, whenever [00:56:55] you're doing hydroponics, and this will be a little bit sketchy, because some people are like, oh, hydroponics are the [00:57:00] future.
It's the future. It's the future. Sunlight is information, and stress on [00:57:05] plants makes them stronger. So if you want to have good coffee, it needs to [00:57:10] have enough stress to make the compounds that are there. And if you have oregano that had [00:57:15] no plant stress, it doesn't have any of the antioxidants. So just like our cells, if you stress them [00:57:20] enough, they'll make more SOD until they run out of the ability to do that.
So, What you're saying [00:57:25] is that the energy bits chlorella that you have that it's receiving appropriate [00:57:30] environmental stress So that it makes phycocyanin and it makes SOD and it makes the right amount of these things [00:57:35] and then you don't heat it Like a lot of brands do because it costs more to dry it instead of to heat dry [00:57:40] it and then how do you crack it?
Catharine: It's tumbled. Okay,
Dave: got it. So mechanical stuff. [00:57:45] Yeah, got it. And then That you said the dose for the energy bits. Chlorella [00:57:50] is 10 to 30 And at night time is best
Catharine: Yes, and you can [00:57:55] have you can have more than that if you want but 10 would be Enough to replace if you don't [00:58:00] like vegetables and carnivores i'm talking to you, too You're not getting the chlorophyll that you need.
You're not [00:58:05] getting the sod There's a lot of nutrients that you're missing Carnivores are great. It's, it's, it's a [00:58:10] path that a lot of people follow and, uh, but you're still missing particular nutrients. And so [00:58:15] there are no lectins or oxalates in chlorella or spirulina. So you can get all the nutrients you're [00:58:20] missing and not move out of your carnivore, uh, lifestyle.
So we want to [00:58:25] be sure people are getting the nutrients they need so that you can age, age well, we don't want you to just [00:58:30] live long. We want you to live well. And this is why I love this book. spirulina and chlorella [00:58:35] so much, the tablet form, it's effortless. It's, there's a hundred thousand studies proving the [00:58:40] science and it's effortless and has all the nutrients that you are missing for that [00:58:45] optimal uh, energy, life, wellness, brain health, everything.[00:58:50]
You said
Dave: something really important at the end there. I, before we called it the [00:58:55] carnivore diet, I tried it because I was testing the limits of the, [00:59:00] of the Bulletproof diet recommendations and. I did this for a while, and I did [00:59:05] get leaky gut, and at first I felt amazing, but then you don't have some of the nutrients you need.[00:59:10]
And what I realized is that, Throughout history, first we [00:59:15] had salt trading roots, that's how we got our minerals, and then they became [00:59:20] spice trading roots, and that's how we got our plant antioxidants and all these other things that are [00:59:25] beneficial. And now we have all this weird recent stuff, because we have refrigerators, like, you have to have a [00:59:30] big bowl of rainbow colored greens, which have a ton of plant toxins in them.
So what [00:59:35] you want to do when you eat plants is get the plants that have the lowest size. And the [00:59:40] highest ratio of beneficial nutrients and the lowest amount of toxins. And that's usually things like [00:59:45] oregano and rosemary and all that. But what you're doing with energy bits is you're saying, Well, let's look at the [00:59:50] specific nutrients present in these very high density or high nutrient [00:59:55] density plants.
And let's use those almost, and let's use those [01:00:00] almost medically. Right. And it's a, it's an important point. So if you're a carnivore, You should be crusting [01:00:05] your steak, the way I do, with the right type of herbs, the low [01:00:10] oxalate herbs, and there are some. And you, I believe, ought to be taking some spirulina and some [01:00:15] chlorella.
And yes, I actually, if you go downstairs, you'll see energy bits on my counter, because that's what I take.
Music: Yeah.
Dave: So, [01:00:20] there you go. And of course, Everyone wants a discount, energybits. com, use code BEYOND because that's [01:00:25] the name of the BEYOND biohacking conference now. So you get 20 percent off, energybits.
com, [01:00:30] code BEYOND, 20 percent off. Katherine, you're a genius, and I [01:00:35] think you're accelerating, not slowing down.
Catharine: I'm just sharing what I've learned. learned over 15 years [01:00:40] so everybody else doesn't have to spend 15 years. The information is there. The science is there. [01:00:45] Our bodies need support, but you need the recipe of what, [01:00:50] how to do that.
And I love algae because it has all of the ingredients that the [01:00:55] recipe your body needs so we can all live, uh, Well, and [01:01:00] long and enjoy the ride. Um, and I'm an example of it. Today's, you know, I'm [01:01:05] entering my 70th year. I just want everybody to feel as great as I do. So thank you, Dave, [01:01:10] for giving me a, uh, a celebratory interview.
Dave: You're welcome. You're a [01:01:15] Testament. Ultimately, if someone comes in and says, I have this great weight loss product and they weigh [01:01:20] 300 pounds, like I did, like maybe like. Maybe the product needs improvement, but you're a [01:01:25] living testimony to energy bits. And
Catharine: I appreciate you coming [01:01:30] in
Dave: and, and sharing this knowledge.
Cause there's stuff [01:01:35] that I've never talked about in 1300 episodes that we covered today. And that's, that's impressive. So thank you.
Catharine: Oh, thank [01:01:40] you.
Dave: See you next time on the human upgrade [01:01:45] podcast.