Alberto: [00:00:00] Some of my research was in a declassified CIA document.
Dave: We're here to talk [00:00:05] about how to literally grow a new brain. And this is something that you've done, and you've [00:00:10] written your book about how to grow a new brain.
Alberto: I had a dead liver, heart full of holes, and dead [00:00:15] parasites in my brain. I knew I could get a new liver, maybe even a new heart, but it's hard to find a good [00:00:20] brain these days.
Host: Today's guest was one of the youngest neuroscience [00:00:25] professors in the country, until the limits of the microscope hit, and he traveled to the Amazon to study [00:00:30] how indigenous shamans grew their brain without modern medicine. He later founded the Four [00:00:35] Winds Society, now the leading school for energy medicine, and has written over 25 [00:00:40] best selling books blending neuroscience and ancient recipes to regenerate a new [00:00:45] brain.
Alberto: You live in the Amazon, you've got to be a biologist. Dumas were [00:00:50] the first biologist. So I reverted back to what I learned in the Amazon. We [00:00:55] looked at the sacred plants. The sacred plants all turned out to be switch on more than [00:01:00] 1100 genes that create health and silence about 600 genes within [00:01:05] 24 hours that create disease.
Dave: Are the plants actually hacking us? [00:01:10] You're listening to The Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.[00:01:15]
Hey guys, quick reminder. If you're [00:01:20] listening to this on your favorite audio podcast app and you haven't been over to my YouTube channel, [00:01:25] check it out. Just search for the human upgrade or find me under Dave Asprey BPR. I [00:01:30] post full video versions of every episode and a bunch of other cool content outside the pod.
It's a [00:01:35] great way to go deeper into the content and connect with other biohackers like you. So leave a [00:01:40] comment for me. Yeah, I'm actually going to read them. And poke around while you're there, there is a lot of stuff [00:01:45] specifically for you. It really helps. And it means a lot to me. Alberto, [00:01:50] uh, many, many years ago, I said, you know, I've been down to [00:01:55] the jungles in Peru and I had a, uh, plant medicine experience [00:02:00] before it was a trend, uh, to the point that, uh, I didn't really know who [00:02:05] to go see.
And I asked around at this guest house where I was staying and in my, my mid [00:02:10] twenties, and I said, I'm going to do ayahuasca. And, [00:02:15] uh, they looked at me and they said, You're white. And I said, I, I [00:02:20] know, uh, I'm aware of this, but I've done my homework and I actually really do want to go [00:02:25] try this. And they said, Oh, but, but it's for locals only and you'll throw up and it's not fun.
[00:02:30] It's, it's not, it's not a toy. And I said, I understand. So I met [00:02:35] someone and I had an experience that was maybe more than I was ready for at the time. And that [00:02:40] was my impression. My first introduction to, uh, direct shamanic [00:02:45] practice, I mean, I learned some breath work and I'd done some other things, but this, this was very early in my, my spiritual [00:02:50] journey and years later, after I'd started Bulletproof, I [00:02:55] came across your work, uh, training people who are from the West [00:03:00] in some shamanic practice and I did the first, uh, I think it was a week long or maybe 10 [00:03:05] days, however long it was, um, yeah.
session that you put on with no medicines [00:03:10] involved, just really altered states work and breath work and, you know, fires [00:03:15] and all kinds of stuff. And it had a really profound effect on me. And I know this is your [00:03:20] second time on the show, but I just, uh, I just wanted to thank you because, [00:03:25] you know, you've, you've done something to bring this to the West in a way that still honors traditional [00:03:30] ways versus turning a sacrament into a toy.
So I just, I [00:03:35] appreciate you as a, as a friend and as a teacher. And I'm really happy to come back onto the show.
Alberto: [00:03:40] Thank you, Dave. Great to be with you. Yeah. It's been a long time since the ayahuasca [00:03:45] was really the, the exploratory phase. And now it's become the touristic. Very [00:03:50] popular and the, um, and what I tell people is, you know, shamanism is not about plant [00:03:55] medicine only.
You know, shamans were the first biologists, man. They were, [00:04:00] you know, if you live in the Amazon, you've got to be a biologist. That's not like [00:04:05] an optional course that you take on your way to an MBA, you know. You got to, you got [00:04:10] to learn about the plants and the plants, how they work, and, and, um, And since there was no writing in the [00:04:15] Americas, all of the wisdom was stored in the minds of the elders.
And so you have to learn how to [00:04:20] protect the brains of the elder. So you didn't forget how to make fire or [00:04:25] where, where to go in the hunt or how to make a fishhook. So this was [00:04:30] what really fascinated me is how in protecting the minds of the elders, [00:04:35] they discovered that you could study the universe by turning within.
And not only by [00:04:40] measuring and quantifying what you could see through the telescope,
Dave: One of the things I [00:04:45] will, I'll never forget, during this, this really intense [00:04:50] seven days with you, you had an army of newbies. We're walking around in the [00:04:55] Palm Desert, and you're saying, find a rock, you know, just one that calls out to you, and I [00:05:00] might have been a little skeptical at the time, but I'm also willing to learn from people who know way more than I do.[00:05:05]
So we're walking around, and this isn't the first time that this facility has been used. And one of the [00:05:10] guys, I think you'll remember this, who had been the most skeptical, there was this, with his son, and he just [00:05:15] thought this was the biggest bunch of crap, and he was so resistant, he found [00:05:20] a coyote skull, which shouldn't have been there, there's no way that it wouldn't have been found a [00:05:25] dozen times over given the number of people traipsing around.
Do you remember what you said?
Alberto: I don't remember [00:05:30] what I said, but I remember saying to myself, well, this guy is in for some big medicine.
Dave: [00:05:35] Yeah, you did tell him that. And you said, ah, you said, there's a reason you found this, and [00:05:40] this is the universe bringing you coyote medicine. You know, you were, you have so much resistance [00:05:45] to yourself, not to shamanic practice, but just, you know, you are arguing about everything, your [00:05:50] relationships here.
So, You're going to have, uh, an even bigger [00:05:55] experience than you think, and that was when the guy kind of cracked open to the fact that [00:06:00] part of the human existence is deeply spiritual and energetic, and you can [00:06:05] still be rational. And I just, I remember your talk was so impactful because you're saying it can be [00:06:10] both, but you just signed up for the biggest medicine because you're fighting against yourself so [00:06:15] hard.
And before we get into the specifics about growing a new brain and all, why do people fight [00:06:20] against themselves so much?
Alberto: You know, I think they're terrified in discovering that they're [00:06:25] much bigger than they believe that they are. And it's, you know, like Nelson [00:06:30] Mandela said, it's not your, it's your greatness that you're most terrified about.
And I [00:06:35] think that That logic and reason are fantastic, but they can be used as a shield [00:06:40] and as a body armor to protect you from the bigger, the bigger questions in [00:06:45] life.
Dave: Yeah, uh, and I was probably the most armored of anyone I [00:06:50] know, uh, in my twenties. I just, I thought everything was, was logic and ration.
Anything below [00:06:55] the neck was useless. Maybe I was a hard learner, but certainly [00:07:00] learning with you and some of the hard math and the neurofeedback and the breathwork and all that, [00:07:05] I just finally ended up to the point where I'm simultaneously entirely irrational [00:07:10] and rational. Are you there too? Are you rational and irrational?
Are you just irrational? [00:07:15] Do you only live in the spiritual? How does this work?
Alberto: No, no, no. I think you got to lose your mind to come to your [00:07:20] senses. That's rule number one. And then you get to a higher [00:07:25] mind, and, uh, you know, when I give talks to physicists, like I was giving a, a [00:07:30] talk at Lawrence Livermore, and the, uh, they totally, they totally get it, you know, they said, yeah, the [00:07:35] invisible world, 95 percent of reality is, uh, dark energy, you know, we can't [00:07:40] see it, but we know it's there.
And they were open to the mystery, and, but the [00:07:45] rest of us that are looking at science as a religion and a set of facts instead of a way to [00:07:50] explore the mystery of life, then we, then we really become fanatics in [00:07:55] some way and narrow minded, including myself, you know, I, Because I came [00:08:00] from a, kind of a relatively primitive existence in, in a [00:08:05] third world country.
And I thought that everything was medical and everything was rational. [00:08:10] And if you couldn't measure it, throw it out the door. Um, and, uh, [00:08:15] then I started, then I had my first ayahuasca experience. [00:08:20] And I, I also, I also was shown more than I could [00:08:25] swallow or digest or even chew. And then I said, okay, I, at that time, I was on [00:08:30] the faculty at San Francisco State University and running a little lab in the biology department [00:08:35] called the self regulation laboratory, where we were trying to see if we could create [00:08:40] psychosomatic health and the chemicals associated with it, or could we [00:08:45] only create disease, psychosomatic disease, but then the plant medicine blew my mind open [00:08:50] and I said, wow, why do we have receptor sites for these substances in our [00:08:55] brain?
Yeah. And, and why is DMT in everything in nature, [00:09:00] grasshoppers, and whales, and plants?
Dave: I can't get high by eating grasshopper tea, can I? I just wanted to [00:09:05] double check.
Alberto: No, you need to, the amount of grasshoppers you need to eat is just way, [00:09:10] way too many.
Dave: You know how for Americans who apparently don't understand [00:09:15] things like miles and feet, they're like, oh, this is three whale carcasses distance away.
[00:09:20] And like the news is always doing dumb things like that. So now we have grasshopper units when it [00:09:25] comes to looking at psychedelic action.
Alberto: They take leaps. Have you seen a grasshopper leap? They're [00:09:30] like the quantum, the quantum leapers.
Dave: They're pretty fascinating creatures. And [00:09:35] one thing that I love about this different worldview and [00:09:40] of all the people I know, you're just such an elegant job of having one foot on both sides of it [00:09:45] is you can go into grasshopper consciousness and you can, you have a different way of looking [00:09:50] at bugs and life and systems and all.
How long did it take you to learn how to [00:09:55] see things that way versus the way you did? Was this like a five year challenge? Was it one night with [00:10:00] AYA?
Alberto: No, I think the AYA reinforces things that we come knowing. You know, we come, we come [00:10:05] with gifts. Like, there are people that have musical gifts that I don't have.
And, you know, they're, they're, [00:10:10] There are people that have mathematical gifts that I don't, I like math, [00:10:15] but I, I don't get it. It's like, but you got to come with a certain [00:10:20] gift and curiosity for the, that which is the unmeasurable [00:10:25] and with, but enough of a logical mind. So you, so you don't become, you don't [00:10:30] join a monastery, you know?
So good. That's the, um, and I [00:10:35] think if you have that gift, then you got a restlessness about life. Then you go towards the [00:10:40] sciences and you want to dive into where, where's the cutting edge of what we're trying to [00:10:45] understand now and, uh, what, instead of just having more [00:10:50] experiments for fruit flies and their sexual behavior, which is not, you know, it's [00:10:55] not going to get you a Nobel prize.
So you've got to have the drive, the ambition and the [00:11:00] curiosity, but there's also something you got to come with. And you got to [00:11:05] be able to focus it, um, you know, you have to have both sides of your brain. I [00:11:10]
Dave: think you're, you're onto something there and, and it's a great segue because we're here to [00:11:15] talk about how to literally grow a new brain.
And this is [00:11:20] something that you've done, I know, because, because we're friends and you've written your book [00:11:25] about, you know, how to grow a new brain. So what does that mean?
Alberto: Well, you know, [00:11:30] it's, you don't need to understand how to grow a new brain because it's happening all the time. You grow a new [00:11:35] brain every 22 days.
It's, it's like somebody saying to you, No, you cannot [00:11:40] have the new BMW. Uh, but you got to stay with the 2002 one, but we're [00:11:45] going to replace every component in it, the tires and the carburetor and everything, and the [00:11:50] fenders and the But you can, because you cannot grow any new neurons except in the [00:11:55] hippocampus with their stem cells.
But the rest, the neurons you're born with, you die with, but you [00:12:00] exchange every component part of mitochondria, all the organelles [00:12:05] every 22 days. So you gotta, you cannot do that on. potato chips, you [00:12:10] know, you, you gotta get the neural nutrients. You gotta have the, [00:12:15] understand what goes through the blood brain barrier, what doesn't.
Um, and, and [00:12:20] that's what the, what I learned in the Amazon, um, is [00:12:25] what they, what they understood intuitively. They couldn't explain it. They couldn't talk about [00:12:30] NRF2 activation and detox processes and how you're missing lithium. [00:12:35] Or that everybody should be taking now, uh, but they knew the [00:12:40] plants had had it.
They knew the, um, and I wanted to know how they knew [00:12:45] that curare, you know, which is what they used to paralyze monkeys that are a [00:12:50] hundred feet up in a tree with a blow gun. And, and then they put it in [00:12:55] the palm of your hand. And I asked him, what's this chewing gum you put in my hand? He said, no, that's curare.
[00:13:00] And I dropped it. He says, it only works if you, if it touches your bloodstream and it [00:13:05] has seven herbs in it. Go, how did you learn this? And he said, the plants taught us. [00:13:10] They didn't say that. They said, the plants taught us, stupid, [00:13:15] like you don't talk to plants.
Dave: So the, I mean, what's the language of [00:13:20] talking to a plant?
Alberto: You know, the Greeks called it gnosis, [00:13:25] gnosis, the direct knowing, direct knowing. And we have that [00:13:30] skill too. Unfortunately, we just refine it to, to, to the simply biological. You [00:13:35] know, when we were 18, we could go into the bar and tell exactly which were [00:13:40] the single people like in three seconds, right? And the dateable ones when the [00:13:45] light was dim.
So we just, we just put that instinct in the service of the [00:13:50] Reproduction, biology, whatever, sex, um, but it's there if [00:13:55] we can go back to [00:14:00] nature and what a way that means for you, go back to nature, go back to your natural mind, your [00:14:05] natural self.
Dave: It's kind of funny, even the hardest core skeptic knows that if you walk down the [00:14:10] street, And there's some guys standing there that you're just kind of, [00:14:15] no, are they a threat?
And it's not because you thought they were a threat. It's because you felt [00:14:20] whether they were a threat and you're usually right. And sometimes you're a little bit wrong and sometimes you're right. They were a threat, but they didn't [00:14:25] do anything. Right. Other times guys might look the same, but you just know that that's, it's nothing [00:14:30] to worry about.
Right. So we know that we have some senses that [00:14:35] sometimes work and they must be trainable.
Alberto: Yeah, it's the same instinct. Absolutely [00:14:40] the same instinct. And it's such, it's a matter of training it and a lot of the shamanic [00:14:45] training is It's really about that getting out of your mind, coming to your senses, losing your mind [00:14:50] and, you know, without losing your, without going to pieces internally, emotionally.
[00:14:55] Um, and they, um, and part of that training had to do with [00:15:00] sitting with what the Buddhist call impermanence, with knowing that you're, that [00:15:05] you, that That we're also the children of death and the children of life. We're gonna die. [00:15:10] And, uh, and not shying away from that. Where you open your heart to yourself to begin with.[00:15:15]
Accept yourself. Accept your mortality. Then you're shown your infinity. The [00:15:20] planned medicine does that. It shows you that you continue way beyond this, this [00:15:25] biological. This is like a rental car, you know. You gotta return it someday, but you're gonna [00:15:30] keep going. And that heals the fear. When that heals the fear, [00:15:35] that's what I was looking for in the lab.
Then you create psychosomatic health, because you're not [00:15:40] producing the stress molecules. You know, you're not triggering the, uh, [00:15:45] cortisol and adrenaline in the hippocampus. The learning center is full of [00:15:50] cortisol receptors, so you're not damaging. You can have a new experience. You can [00:15:55] fall in love with life and with yourself again.
Dave: And that comes from growing a new [00:16:00] brain, in part anyway.[00:16:05]
You mentioned the hippocampus and I know that one of your [00:16:10] earlier books, uh, you actually co wrote it with, uh, David Perlmutter who's been on the show multiple [00:16:15] times, who's a dear friend and a, a brain expert, and [00:16:20] what, what I've learned over this time is you can grow hippocampal [00:16:25] neurons, and we have plenty of evidence of that, so all this stuff like Lion's Mane and even some of the psychedelics, [00:16:30] that's what they do, but there are a few cases where you might be able to change [00:16:35] Um, other parts of the brain, and you might be able to grow neurons throughout the brain.
Um, [00:16:40] and we're just learning how to do that. In your case, though, you had a little bit of [00:16:45] a brain problem. Tell me about what happened to your brain, because it was not just your hippocampus.
Alberto: [00:16:50] You mean like graduate school? Like getting a PhD?
Dave: Yeah, besides [00:16:55] graduate school. I'm talking about more like zombie mode, things eating your brain.
Alberto: Well, you [00:17:00] know, I'm an anthropologist, I'm a, I'm a fellow at the New York Explorers Club [00:17:05] and, uh, and all the anthropologists there that have been, that spend time [00:17:10] overseas, viruses are the big problem. And the, uh, and, and [00:17:15] any jungle setting in Asia or in Africa or where I, all these places where I've done some work and, [00:17:20] and I came back with, you know, there are five kinds of hepatitis.
I had all five of them. [00:17:25] And the, uh, I had, uh, I had parasites in my [00:17:30] brain. I have, my heart had holes in it and my liver was shot. They told me to get on a liver [00:17:35] transplant list and I, and, um, I knew I could get a [00:17:40] new liver, but you know, maybe even a new heart, but it's hard to find a good brain these days.[00:17:45]
So, uh, I, I called David Perlmutter, my friend, [00:17:50] David and Mark Hyman, my other friend. And I said, Hey guys, what am I going to do? You [00:17:55] know, but you know, they're mutual friends.
Dave: Mark's a neighbor.
Alberto: I know. [00:18:00] So, uh, yeah, so I decided to go in the body and [00:18:05] the liver repairs rapidly, but I did, I did the Western medicine.
I killed the parasites [00:18:10] with the drugs, but then I had a dead liver, heart full of holes and dead parasites in [00:18:15] my brain that didn't want to go out of the blood brain barrier. So how do we, [00:18:20] so I reverted back to what I learned in the Amazon, but Which was how, [00:18:25] when David Perlmutter and I were in the Amazon, we'd looked at the sacred plants, not the [00:18:30] teacher plants, those are the psychedelics, the sacred plants all turned out to be NRF2 [00:18:35] activators.
And NRF2 is DeepBody's premier [00:18:40] detox pathway, and it's also what will switch, you know, broccoli, [00:18:45] five day old broccoli sprouts, sulforaphane, what will switch on more than [00:18:50] 1, 100 genes that create health and silence about 600 genes. Within [00:18:55] 24 hours that create disease. All of those plans for natural [00:19:00] NRF2 activators, which are like the Navy seals, you know, the NRF2 [00:19:05] proteins sits on the cell membrane and the minute you get [00:19:10] sulforaphane, for example, even tumeric or curcumin, which is much [00:19:15] less bioavailable, then they leave the cell membrane to go into the nucleus of the cell and they [00:19:20] start, you know, silencing.
And switching on the [00:19:25] good genes that we want to, so we epigenetically, we're beginning to modify it, their [00:19:30] expression. So that was so impressive. How did they know that these [00:19:35] plants were, you know, the, the epigenetic paroxylons [00:19:40] plants? And when you asked the herbalist, they said, they told us, [00:19:45] it's like, it's like ayahuasca, you got to combine two plants.[00:19:50]
One of them is an MAO inhibitor so that you don't destroy the [00:19:55] dimethyltryptamine, the psychedelic part. It's not destroyed in your gut. It allows [00:20:00] absorption of the DMT that comes from the chacruna, the other plant. [00:20:05] How did he know that? You know, it's like, I would scratch my head and, you know, [00:20:10] ask Chad GPT about how the hell did they know [00:20:15] this?
And, and then one time I was leaving the jungle and, um, [00:20:20] and I was doing kind of a residency, a medical residency there, a shamanic internship. [00:20:25] And, um, I had a brand new PhD, I remember, and I was [00:20:30] telling this group of elders about, um, the butterfly effect, [00:20:35] that, you know, the butterfly, the flattest wings in Beijing that caused the storm in the [00:20:40] Caribbean.
And they said, Oh, very good. Show us. I go, why don't we [00:20:45] show you? This is quantum physics. He said, no, no, no, you fly. I had a [00:20:50] brand new PhD. You flap, flap your little doctor wings and heal somebody in [00:20:55] India. I said, I can't do that. They said, I can. [00:21:00] They knew how to work. They knew how to, how to work remotely.
You [00:21:05] know, there's a lot of science and good articles on remote healing. And even the [00:21:10] CIA and NAS was doing remote viewing and [00:21:15] disabling electronics remotely of the old Soviet Union. And, um, [00:21:20] so they, so we're, we're hip to that at, at kind of [00:21:25] government levels, but not at the local practical level, which is where.[00:21:30]
I'm really interested in
Dave: it's funny as someone who's been on the show, [00:21:35] and I'm not going to say who it is because I don't know if she wants me to. She was outed in [00:21:40] a thousand page book about remote viewing and the history of it with the [00:21:45] CIA and she doesn't practice it anymore. But she was the most effective [00:21:50] remote viewer.
She's like, I'm not working for these guys. And she quit many, many years ago. But I mean, we're, we're friends. We've talked [00:21:55] about this. This is real. And, uh, And the shamans have been doing it forever, [00:22:00] right?
Alberto: Totally real. In fact, I just, I just did a [00:22:05] literature search a couple of days ago and, um, and [00:22:10] found that some of my research was in a declassified CIA document that they, [00:22:15] that they had ended up funding some of my work through a foundation, of course.
[00:22:20] Uh, Because they were, they were fascinated by psychedelics long before we were, [00:22:25] and by these, by these capabilities of the higher, of the higher brain, of the [00:22:30] neocortex, of the rewiring of the higher brain to have extraordinary human [00:22:35] capabilities. But to do that, you'd need, you'd need certain neuro nutrients that were not in our food [00:22:40] anymore.
You need the tryptophan, you need the serotonin.
Dave: Well, you say they're not in our food anymore. I mean, [00:22:45] turkey has tryptophan, steak has You
Alberto: know, it's interesting, because [00:22:50] I spent a lot of time in the Southwest, and the [00:22:55] Pueblo people in the Southwest were turkey farmers, [00:23:00] and they were the peaceful people. If you raised [00:23:05] turkeys and you got tryptophan, you didn't want to invade your neighbors.
You wanted to go hug [00:23:10] them. Have a good time with them.
Dave: Oh, wow. I will, too. So you're saying we could like [00:23:15] load all the fake vegan food with tryptophan. So they would just chill out and stop trying to kill anyone who eats meat. [00:23:20]
Alberto: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
Dave: You didn't say that. I did. But
Alberto: [00:23:25] can I use that? Can they see?
I love it because that's the key. You know, a sweet [00:23:30] pea today is bred for sweetness and not for tryptophan content. A year, a hundred years ago, [00:23:35] I had three times the amount and the blood brain barrier, let me [00:23:40] get a little bit, go a little technical here. Because our [00:23:45] gene, we have a hunter gatherer genome evolved 3 million years ago, a million years ago.[00:23:50]
And we were really bad hunters. This kind of great [00:23:55] white hunter story is, was invented by guys. [00:24:00] You know, we would occasionally find some roadkill and bring it back home and say to [00:24:05] the women, look, girls, look what I brought back and we have sex now. But we were [00:24:10] horrible hunters. So the brain, blood brain barrier prioritizes [00:24:15] for transport.
The transport system prioritizes the BCAAs, the [00:24:20] leucine, valine and iso, and isovaline, the branch chain amino [00:24:25] acids. And it gives less priority to tryptophan, which is [00:24:30] abundant in the plant. Products that are not as abundant today because of farming's [00:24:35] tendency to breed for sweetness. So we're getting a lot of the protein we [00:24:40] need for protein synthesis in the brain, but we're not getting the [00:24:45] tryptophan to be able to that turn into serotonin that we need to repair the [00:24:50] hippocampus and that we need to turn into melatonin and that we need to turn [00:24:55] into DMT by the pineal gland.
Once we quiet the production of the [00:25:00] stress molecules, I know that's quite a trip I took us on, but it's all because of [00:25:05] the turkey farmers.
Dave: I like that though. It comes down to aminos and who would [00:25:10] know that, you know, your traditional ancestral foods may really affect [00:25:15] societal structure. So are the, are the plants actually hacking us?
Alberto: We're being hacked. No, it's not the [00:25:20] plants, it's the viruses.
Dave: It's the viruses. So what, how does that tie in with Turkey and [00:25:25] tryptophan?
Alberto: Well, because the viruses, you know, we consider them our enemies, but 90 percent of [00:25:30] our DNA is fossil record of viruses [00:25:35] that we, our ancestors lived through, you know, smallpox and black plague and things like that.[00:25:40]
But they were the drivers of evolution. You know, we want to vaccinate [00:25:45] so that we can, there are too many viruses to create vaccines for it. We can't. And vaccines are [00:25:50] important. You know, I got to work with Jonas Salk for a little bit when I was a graduate student. [00:25:55] Yeah. And, um, and he did the Salk, developed the Salk vaccine, a polio vaccine, and [00:26:00] he gave it away for free.
And so there's some amazing [00:26:05] things that vaccines have done.
Dave: What a clown, he gave it away for free. Did he not know that you could have a trillion [00:26:10] dollar industry where you force people to buy whatever you want with no liability? Salt doesn't sound that [00:26:15] visionary, Alberto. What's going on here?
Alberto: That's what I asked the guy, you know, I asked him when I knew him.
I was a [00:26:20] young graduate student. He was an old man. And, uh, and I asked [00:26:25] him, don't you miss being a trillionaire? And he said, no, I really [00:26:30] wanted to discover the double helix.
Dave: Ah, he's like, darn it, Watson and Crick beat [00:26:35] me. Bastards.
Alberto: Yeah, the bastards. So this is the, uh, [00:26:40] uh, and it's going back to the virus.
Viruses have been driving [00:26:45] evolution and the, uh, but they're not living or dead. You know, we don't know really what they are. [00:26:50] But we know that they're evolutionary drivers and, uh, they, they [00:26:55] either inject themselves to a host, they're parasitic, but they're injecting [00:27:00] their DNA. So they're allowing for experimentation, evolutionary [00:27:05] experimentation that wouldn't happen.
But today, You know, I was listening to Bobby Kennedy a few days ago. [00:27:10] He was saying that when his uncle was president, 3 percent of Americans had chronic [00:27:15] diseases. Today, 76 percent of Americans do. And a lot of the problem [00:27:20] we're having is immune, this immune related. So if we don't have [00:27:25] strong immunity, The viruses are going to accelerate [00:27:30] evolution in a way that's not going to be pleasant for us.
Dave: This is one of the reasons, you know, the ocean's full of viruses. You go [00:27:35] swimming, they're hacking your DNA. And so anytime you look at anything as good or [00:27:40] bad, you're probably being childish. So viruses could be good or bad depending on, even vaccines could be [00:27:45] good or bad depending on which one and your own risk and all that.
And, um, some people get really mad when I say [00:27:50] that. And if you can show me real unaltered, [00:27:55] truthful evidence that there's a vaccine against cardiovascular disease. [00:28:00] I'm pretty sure that I'm interested, but I'm not going to believe it unless I know that it's done with clean science. So they'd have to do a [00:28:05] lot of convincing, but I'm open to the idea, even if I'm cautious.
And, and so I would just [00:28:10] encourage anyone, don't, you know, don't believe your own BS. How do you avoid believing your [00:28:15] own BS, Alberto?
Alberto: You mean Chocolate doesn't work for that cardiovascular stuff.
Dave: I [00:28:20] mean, it might help a little bit, but I don't think that a chocolate bar a day is gonna keep the heart surgeon away.
No, I
Alberto: [00:28:25] do the chocolate chip. I gotta do the chocolate chip. I kind, I can't do the bars, but chocolate actually is [00:28:30] a, it's anes. It's a, it is. It's a Mayan word. Chocolate laal. [00:28:35] And, uh, they used to drink it with spice and anything that has the, the word [00:28:40] Atal associated with it, Chocolatel, it's one of the sacred plants.
So they're NRF2 [00:28:45] activators, brain food, you know, the, the, the fats are amazing brain food. [00:28:50] But I think that today we have to become our own chief scientist because you can't tell what's bullshit [00:28:55] anymore. There's, you've got to become your own chief scientist, your own medical doctor, your own. [00:29:00] You know, for example, peptides, we have amazing peptides [00:29:05] available to us in America, but they cannot be patented.
Pharma can't take them over, [00:29:10] so there is so much misinformation about them and they're The most [00:29:15] extraordinary tools that, that we, if we learn how to work with them and work with [00:29:20] somebody that can coach us there, they can do wonders. I mean, insulin is a peptide, [00:29:25] you know, GLP, GLP 1, agonist. This is ozempic.
It [00:29:30] turns out to protect you from Alzheimer's and, and protects your kidneys and [00:29:35] you lower your risk of dying from cardiovascular events by [00:29:40] 57%. So we got to, we got to really immerse ourselves in, [00:29:45] in the tools that become empowered and not just follow [00:29:50] the latest, you know, hip, uh, supplement, but [00:29:55] understand the systems, you know, what are the systems that, how do they work [00:30:00] and, um, and not just the molecules and the pathways, which is Western medicine, because [00:30:05] the planets have multiple pathways and, and hundreds of molecules and [00:30:10] the, um, but they're synergistic.
So we have the [00:30:15] wisdom already and we have the tools for accessing it today. You know, I can, I can [00:30:20] ask chat to give me the five botanicals that have the best GLP one [00:30:25] agonist impact, and I get them in a minute without having to take a, [00:30:30] a semi glutide or GLP one, um, peptide. So [00:30:35] that's the, the information is available today.
The misinformation of [00:30:40] fortunately is fear driven and, uh, we have [00:30:45] plant, we, we grew up with plants. We evolved with the plants and they're here, [00:30:50] including the cycle. It turns out that the best extender of average lifespan [00:30:55] in mice is psilocybin. You read that, you read that research.
Dave: No, [00:31:00] not about life extension in mice.
I, I saw a life extension when I didn't realize it was in mice, but that's [00:31:05] interesting. Cause there's no placebo there, it's just good for them.
Alberto: Yeah, yeah, sure. [00:31:10] And they didn't put, they put no rock and roll music when they gave it to them.
Dave: Oh man. Are you a [00:31:15] fan of using psilocybin to grow a new brain? I mean, you wrote a book about that, but it's not really about [00:31:20] psilocybin.
Alberto: I wrote a book about growing a new brain. [00:31:25] And, uh, Psilocybin is also a serotonin analog. [00:31:30] So you find that they all have this indoor nucleus [00:31:35] and their, their binding sites, both ayahuasca, [00:31:40] psilocybin, mescalin, they, they were, they work on psilocybin receptors on [00:31:45] on s serotonin receptors. So there's something here.
[00:31:50] And now that the longevity studies are, and the aging studies on mice and [00:31:55] psilocybin are showing that it, it, it extends lifespan. It [00:32:00] reduces mortality. Like the average mortality may be at 50%, but [00:32:05] the psilocybin mice live 30 percent longer and it's available. It's [00:32:10] take a look at the science and it's, so why did, why did the great [00:32:15] spirit create psychedelics that are in every plant and [00:32:20] animal on the planet?
And we have receptors for, and they're serotonin [00:32:25] receptors. How can we do that by producing, manufacturing our own [00:32:30] ayahuasca? The brain, the pineal gland, that's his only job is to [00:32:35] put pituitary gland produces a hundred different hormones. The [00:32:40] pineal and the higher brain produces only melatonin. [00:32:45] And methylates serotonin into [00:32:50] dimethyltryptamine.
So, wow, this is very cool. [00:32:55] We didn't know that, you know, 20 years ago.
Dave: I remember, I think it was Candice [00:33:00] Pert, who's the discoverer, our discoverer of the opiate receptor in [00:33:05] humans, and wrote this interesting book. The
Alberto: neuropeptides, yeah, the neuropeptides, yeah.
Dave: Yeah. [00:33:10] And she was talking about going down and visiting Shamans in South America, and so she's [00:33:15] this really hardcore, skeptical, Western scientific person as, as you had to be as a woman [00:33:20] in science in the 70s and 80s when she was coming up.
Alberto: She didn't get the Nobel Prize she should [00:33:25] have been included in, you know.
Dave: I never got to interview her because she passed before I became aware of her work, [00:33:30] but when you read her book, she says, we went down, we talked to all these shamans, and I was trying to [00:33:35] explain to them about the opiate receptor in the brain, and they all just started [00:33:40] laughing and laughing and laughing.
And she's like, what's so funny? And they said, you think those things actually [00:33:45] exist. Yeah. Here's the [00:33:50] question though, Alberto, you're a shaman. Do they exist?
Alberto: So you're talking about the nature of reality now. [00:33:55] What, what, what is real? What is not real? And, and it's, uh, I think that we co [00:34:00] create with spirit and that, um, that's this material [00:34:05] reality, tangible reality is real.
But it's only real because you consider itself, [00:34:10] if you were to change your ground of beliefs, your presuppositions [00:34:15] about the world, the world would mirror that back to you, you become more synchronistic and more, [00:34:20] you would enter it a little bit more into what we would call the magical world and not only the [00:34:25] world of causality of cause and effect.
Dave: Is that what you had to do to grow a new brain? I mean, was it about [00:34:30] taking NRF2 or was this about a mindset or a world set shift in you?
Alberto: They go [00:34:35] together. Shamus were biologists to begin with, and they also knew the invisible [00:34:40] world. You gotta, they gotta go together. So you gotta have the right [00:34:45] biology, gotta have the right molecules.
And then you have to understand [00:34:50] what your maps of reality are, because The universe [00:34:55] is so generous that it'll mirror back to you, whatever [00:35:00] presuppositions you have, deep presuppositions about the nature of reality. See, when [00:35:05] I had, I don't see private clients anymore, but when I did, I would have people coming [00:35:10] into my office with a big stack of, of diagnoses and labs and cancer [00:35:15] results and, And, um, I needed to see a golden Buddha walking into my [00:35:20] office because if I saw, you know, a liver cancer, that's what I was going to find.
[00:35:25] That's what Heisenberg told us about, you know, the, uh, the electron. Wherever you look for [00:35:30] it, that's where you're going to find it. And if I could convince them that [00:35:35] they were a living miracle and not a diagnosis, then miracles would begin to happen. [00:35:40] Amazing stuff will begin going on to go on. And, but you [00:35:45] got to find those core beliefs that have been instilled upon us [00:35:50] and then dismantle them.
Dave: What percentage of your healing came from food and [00:35:55] taking the right supplements or the right plants versus your worldview and [00:36:00] your mindset?
Alberto: See, the problem with that question is, you're assuming that 100 percent is the maximum, [00:36:05] you know. If we're working with like a 500 percent gauge, I say that it's about [00:36:10] 200 and 200.
The mindset, there's no amount of supplements that are going to overwrite a [00:36:15] bad mindset. And no amount of mindset that are gonna override a [00:36:20] really crappy diet.
Dave: Wow, so that was maybe the best answer I've ever heard to a [00:36:25] question like that, which is an impossible question to answer. And you gotta do both, and it probably [00:36:30] depends on the person.
If you have a toxic belief system and a good diet, It's going to be 80 20 in one [00:36:35] way versus five, but so I, I a hundred percent
Alberto: and a month or two later, it could [00:36:40] shift that percentage could shift around, you know, maybe you get into a relationship because we end up [00:36:45] marrying the people we need to learn from and grow with in many ways.
And you'd [00:36:50] say, well, I got to learn. These things about who I believe my own self esteem and who I am and [00:36:55] what I deserve. Now you got to do that work, but you got to clean up your diet too. [00:37:00]
Dave: I so resonate with that.[00:37:05]
I look at different times in my life. Certainly mindset's been a thing. And other times where, [00:37:10] you know, if you're swallowing a little bit of cyanide every day, wishing that away, you need to be, you [00:37:15] know, Jesus level to do that. And, uh, I don't know. I'm not there.
Alberto: No, no, no you can't, you cannot [00:37:20] play with mercury, you know, no matter how little the amount is.
But the, uh, you know, [00:37:25] the Buddha taught us that thoughts become things. You know, you become what you think. [00:37:30] And the, um, and what the shamans were masters of, they knew how to work with the mechanism of the [00:37:35] placebo, which we think is tricking people into believing. That this is a sugar pill. In [00:37:40] effect, the placebo works even when the person knows they're getting a placebo.
[00:37:45] Or the nocebo, like the studies done in New York on voodoo deaths. [00:37:50] If somebody thinks that they've been cursed, within two weeks they're going to pick up a major [00:37:55] illness. So, the mind is all important. [00:38:00] But to really create psychosomatic health, which is what my new book is about, you need to [00:38:05] access the higher brain and because that's the brain of quantum physics, [00:38:10] of music, of creativity, and not the Neanderthal limbic brain, which lives in [00:38:15] fear and scarcity, no matter how much you have.
And then it gets, then the [00:38:20] game gets really interesting.
Dave: It gets interesting. It also gets confusing. Uh, and. [00:38:25] In your book, you're talking about Spirit, with a capital S. What [00:38:30] are we really talking about?
Alberto: We're talking about you and I. [00:38:35] We're talking, you know, the shaman in the Amazon once told me, you know [00:38:40] Alberto, we didn't come here to grow corn only, we came here to grow gods.
And [00:38:45] that's the um, that's, that made [00:38:50] such, such an impact. Because I thought we came here to work on our stuff, you know, on our [00:38:55] issues, on our mommy daddy stuff. That's a distraction after a certain time. You came [00:39:00] here to become. Divine and to dream the world [00:39:05] into being, create beauty, invent new stuff, create new technologies, create new [00:39:10] ventures, start a new company, know, learn how we can participate in [00:39:15] with our biology.
So this is where we, we break out of [00:39:20] this kind of narcissistic, self therapeutic black hole that [00:39:25] we end up digging ourselves in sometimes. Um, and we get to play in the game of [00:39:30] life. You know, we, we get to invent a coffee that we call danger. Nobody in their [00:39:35] right mind would call any product that they invent danger, but it's the [00:39:40] only coffee my wife will drink.
You know, she, and I love it. It's fantastic.
Dave: It's hilarious. [00:39:45] I didn't even know that. Thank you. And you're right. Everyone thought I was nuts, but it wouldn't be the first time.
Alberto: [00:39:50] Yeah, totally. You get to really. become, you know, [00:39:55] spirit, the word spirit comes from breath, and there's a great [00:40:00] meditation that I learned with the shamans that when you inhale, you go to silently, I am, [00:40:05] and when you exhale, you go, my breath, I am my breath.[00:40:10]
So when you take that less breath, last breath, [00:40:15] the last exhalation, you could go off into the quantum field into infinity [00:40:20] and have only the I am will be with you. So [00:40:25] how do you leave this life? Um, consciously, [00:40:30] how do you get out of this life alive? That's Reveals [00:40:35] itself, I think, in that higher brain with those neural networks that we can, that [00:40:40] meditation will take you there, but it's so damn long.
Yeah,
Dave: that's the thing. That's why [00:40:45] my most recent book exists. Like, there's a lot of ways that are faster than just meditating by itself, but there's value [00:40:50] in meditating. And some meditations are more valuable than others for certain states. And it's kind of [00:40:55] complex. It's like learning how to cook. Like, do you want to cook a steak?
Or did you want to cook some broccoli? Because they're kind of [00:41:00] different skill sets, right? Speaking of steak and broccoli, what do you eat?
Alberto: [00:41:05] Steak and broccoli together is a really great combination.
Dave: I knew you were going to say that. I wasn't planning it that [00:41:10] way, but once I said it, I'm like, duh.
Alberto: Yeah, you know, it's great.
We've [00:41:15] been friends for many years and I guess it's very playful when we hang out together. And, uh, [00:41:20] basically the, um, I think you, you've got to find what your [00:41:25] system wants and needs now, like. You know, [00:41:30] I'm in an age where I need more protein in my body. And the problem we gravitate a [00:41:35] lot to the meat protein is many of us don't have, meat is absorbed [00:41:40] immediately as soon as it leaves the stomach, whereas vegetable protein has to go through your GI tract [00:41:45] and your gut flora, your biome has to work.
And [00:41:50] if it's not working properly, you're not going to get that protein absorbed. You're better off [00:41:55] eating the animal protein. But if you restore your gut flora [00:42:00] And their, you know, their peptides will help you do that, uh, BPC [00:42:05] 157, amazing to help restore the gut. The, uh, and you, and then [00:42:10] you don't just take probiotics, but you open your probiotic capsule, you rehydrate it in a glass [00:42:15] of water before you drink it, so it doesn't rehydrate in your stomach and blow up because it's [00:42:20] full of acid.
So, a lot of my diet is plant based, very, very, [00:42:25] Uh, good carbs, very low processed carbs, [00:42:30] um, except I just had some, uh, Uh, some, some blue [00:42:35] tortilla chips this morning. I couldn't help myself, but primarily that, and then [00:42:40] your animal products should be, uh, you know, should be really [00:42:45] know where they come from because so much marketing right now.
Grass fed means they're [00:42:50] just putting a lot of. Grass truck into a feedlot and, uh, so [00:42:55] know where your, your, where your meat, your eggs and, um, and fish. [00:43:00] I think that we grew up by the sea. Our body really resonates to fish [00:43:05] and then at the same time, you've got to find out how to keep your mTOR, which is your aging clock, your [00:43:10] biological clock, but keep that down because if you're eating bacon and burgers and a steak at [00:43:15] night, it's going to drive mTOR up, you're going to age faster.
Dave: I've definitely, in fact, [00:43:20] even in my longevity book, I talked about an excess of amino acids from animal [00:43:25] protein, possibly increasing mTOR, and for listeners, mTOR causes tissues to [00:43:30] grow, which is good for regeneration, but if it's always turned on, it increases cancer risk, and cancer is one of [00:43:35] the things that's high on the list of what might take you out, um, if you're not controlling [00:43:40] for it.
Alberto: Not only that, but excessive, excessive amino acids will turn into fat. You've got to be in the right [00:43:45] proportions, right balances, and Which is where you were going next, I think.
Dave: Well, [00:43:50] that can happen, but I looked at what raises mTOR, and [00:43:55] you know what raises mTOR way more than animal protein?
Alberto: Sugar.
Dave: Or carbs.
You get [00:44:00] starch, it turns into sugar, right? So, rice or sugar or fruit is going to raise mTOR [00:44:05] more than beef. So how can you be plant based to control mTOR when plants are made out of [00:44:10] carbs? I don't understand it. Like, I'm not challenging it, I'm just, Like I used to believe that, but it [00:44:15] doesn't seem to be mechanistically how it works.
Alberto: You know, I think that, that Davis Sinclair [00:44:20] really upset a lot of people a couple of years ago when he came out that he was vegan.
Dave: Well, it doesn't work. People [00:44:25] go vegan, including me. They get sick.
Alberto: Yeah. And yeah, I, I think you got to [00:44:30] find out what your body needs, but you got to really be able to do two [00:44:35] things.
One is that a lot of the protein we're eating is just going right through [00:44:40] us. Because we're not going into autophagy. Every cell has a recycling [00:44:45] bin. You know, you mitochondria dies, it puts it in the recycling bin. It's the body's designed [00:44:50] to recycle. And if you can go into ketosis and go into autophagy, the [00:44:55] recycling of these amazing proteins that have already differentiated into [00:45:00] liver protein, it deliver cells and heart cells, et cetera.
And you can absorb your plant protein. [00:45:05] You can, you don't have to eat. That's much me, but your body will tell you, your [00:45:10] body will guide you and you need to find out what's best for you at this [00:45:15] stage in your life and what, uh, what do you want to feed your gut so that they [00:45:20] can, because that's where your immune system resides.
Dave: It's interesting where I ended up both based on like the [00:45:25] energetic intuition, felt sense, and also a lot of science. I'm not full [00:45:30] carnivore, because I have done that before we called it carnivore, and I gave myself leaky gut and an egg [00:45:35] allergy because I didn't have a lining for my gut after a long time.
So I don't think that's the way to do [00:45:40] it, but I eat limited plants and ones that digest [00:45:45] cleanly and create a lot of plant toxins, and that seems to be there, but [00:45:50] I'm also militant about 200 grams of animal protein a day because I weigh 200 pounds. When I [00:45:55] do that, and I can digest it, I'm 6 percent body fat, and I can eat or [00:46:00] not eat, I just, like, I am, I am so, well, dare I say bulletproof?
Uh, when I, [00:46:05] when I do that, and so many people I know have tried it, and they do lose weight, and they put on muscle, and, and [00:46:10] it changes, so it, it's, it's kind of confusing, because there's a lot of, information out there where, well it should [00:46:15] work, and you make, you, you make some new research on things like mTOR, [00:46:20] and I think demonizing animal protein is tough because, you know, you eat animal [00:46:25] protein, and you eat some plants.
I eat animal protein in various degrees based on our genetics or whatever else, [00:46:30] and I think that's where we end up, but not all plants are good, and not all animal protein is good.
Alberto: No, I [00:46:35] think that you turn it into dogma, it becomes dogma. So you got to [00:46:40] find out what works for you, read the science, and you know, it's not only about building muscle, but about [00:46:45] using muscle.
Like I, every year I still lead an expedition. I go to Peru [00:46:50] for a month every year to work with the shamans and every year I lead an expedition where [00:46:55] we camp at 12, 000 feet and hike up to 14, 000 and, um, [00:47:00] and I'm, and I'm still doing it. And I'm walking up. The mountain and I'm, you know, [00:47:05] you're, you get breathless, you do hypoxic training.
I like to call it.
Dave: Yep. We do it at Upgrade [00:47:10] Labs now.
Alberto: So that's the, uh, the resilience. We need to build not [00:47:15] only strength, we need to build resilience, immune resilience, spiritual resilience, [00:47:20] emotional resilience. Physical. At all of these levels, we neglect one of the levels, [00:47:25] we neglect the emotional favor of the physical only.
I have friends of mine that are [00:47:30] just in the gym because they don't want to deal with their dysfunctional marriages.
Dave: That's a really [00:47:35] powerful statement, Alberto. There are people who self medicate, especially with cardio, but it can [00:47:40] also be with weights, where, like, it's just easier to deal with the body than the heart and the mind.
Yeah. [00:47:45] With your own growing of a new brain, did you have to take your brain to the gym? Did you have to do weird [00:47:50] things to grow it back, to stimulate it?
Alberto: Absolutely, yeah. No, I think [00:47:55] that you gotta take your gym, your brain to the gym. And, uh, and not just to the [00:48:00] gym, you gotta find some endurance sport, like, uh, whether it be jogging or bicycling or [00:48:05] swimming.
For me, it's swimming. Something that is just going to allow your, your mind to [00:48:10] go into this, this space of, of everywhere and nowhere. And, uh, [00:48:15] and then you got to challenge yourself, pick, pick up a new language, learn to play an instrument, [00:48:20] uh, play Scrabble. You know, I, so I, my wife and I play Scrabble together.[00:48:25]
And, uh, and She's amazing because English is the [00:48:30] second language for her, but she beats me all the time, but I decided to work with the Scrabble [00:48:35] board upside down because I wanted to see new relationships and things. So I play upside down now. [00:48:40] So I'm exercising my brain. I'm, um, you know, we've [00:48:45] outsourced a lot of our brain to our digital devices.
And when we were kids, we knew everybody's phone number. [00:48:50] I don't even know my own phone number now. So, you gotta, you gotta take your [00:48:55] brain out to a workout. And, and remember that there are four kinds of different, [00:49:00] four different brains, and each one of them works out differently. There's the reptilian brain, [00:49:05] brain stem, you know, uh, and breathing practice is the best thing to exercise that [00:49:10] brain.
For us, breathing is an autonomic function. For dolphins, it isn't. That's [00:49:15] why half of their brain sleeps. And, uh, and a dolphin can commit suicide by [00:49:20] holding their breath. We cannot, but we can retrain that brain to not go [00:49:25] into panic mode when we do exercises that build up the [00:49:30] CO2. In our system, for example, without it [00:49:35] triggering panic.
Dave: You mean you could just breathe in a paper bag for a little while the way [00:49:40] they used to 50 years ago for anxiety?
Alberto: Well, yeah. You know, the [00:49:45] breathing works on the basis of CO2 concentration, not oxygen.
Music: Right. When
Alberto: CO2 [00:49:50] levels in the blood, get to a certain threshold, you, you [00:49:55] begin to hyperventilate and you go into panic.
And the, um, [00:50:00] that's why that breathing meditation is one of many that you find around the [00:50:05] world. But if you can teach your body to, if you can hold your breath, [00:50:10] learn to breathe. You know, hold your breath underwater, for example, when [00:50:15] I was, as a big one, I used to hold my breath for two minutes, um, when I was [00:50:20] 20 and I was a swimmer and a scuba diver.
Now I'm 50 years older and I can hold [00:50:25] my breath for three minutes underwater, but you got to go through that point where you [00:50:30] think you're going to die. And that's why befriending death and [00:50:35] going through that point that triggers all the survival. That's a, that's [00:50:40] a learning edge. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah.
Dave: There's something about learning to not fear [00:50:45] pain for its own, uh, for its own sake is valuable in [00:50:50] my most recent book, I wrote about bicep, brief, intentional, conscious exposure to pain. [00:50:55] And this is why, you know, you'll see monks whip themselves, yogis lay on beds [00:51:00] of nails, or you even see in North American indigenous practice, you know, there's the sun [00:51:05] dancers, they're piercing themselves and doing some pretty intense stuff.
And the idea is that if you're not [00:51:10] causing permanent damage, um, choosing to be in charge of it, even for [00:51:15] three minutes of doing something that's uncomfortable, and not hard, but uncomfortable, like something [00:51:20] actually painful, it changes dopamine sensitivity for the rest of the day. So, like, the monks did it to [00:51:25] be better monks.
It took less work, less energy, less willpower. What's the shamanic [00:51:30] equivalent of in, of choosing pain? I mean, are you snorting frog juice or what? What's the deal?
Alberto: I was gonna [00:51:35] say marriage, but that's not .
Dave: I didn't see that one coming. , [00:51:40]
Alberto: but I didn't, I don't think that that's the, uh, I'll tell you an exercise that I [00:51:45] recommend to my students.
You know what I do? What I do today is I train people in energy medicine. I [00:51:50] tend to becoming modern shamans, neuro shamans, and um, so I tell them to be [00:51:55] in the middle of winter to. Go and take a nice hot shower in the morning and then [00:52:00] turn the faucet all the way to cold. What you do is be, just put [00:52:05] your hand on the faucet and don't turn it.
Just notice [00:52:10] what your body begins to go through. It's already beginning to experience the suffering. That's [00:52:15] suffering. And then after a few seconds turn it all the way to cold and when you [00:52:20] turn it all the way to cold, that's pain. And then you'd learn the difference between suffering and [00:52:25] pain. Suffering happens before and after.
Pain is what's going on when you got that [00:52:30] shot of cold water. And then don't muscle your way through it. Don't [00:52:35] willpower your way through it. Feel it, experience it. Breathe into it, [00:52:40] feel that you're getting blessed by these are the waters that run deep beneath the earth that are coming through a [00:52:45] waterfall, just a cascade upon you, as nature washing, you know, create [00:52:50] a really positive story around it.
Then you're rewiring the brain, creating new [00:52:55] neural networks around what we perceived as, as [00:53:00] pain.
Dave: So I'm doing all right, I get in the cold plunge and I just, I was been meditating on [00:53:05] the blood of my enemies and you're saying that's not how to do it? Kidding, I don't meditate on anyone's blood. [00:53:10] Yeah, it's, it's welcoming the sensation rather [00:53:15] than, than fighting it.
And then it doesn't hurt anymore, and that's when your dopamine [00:53:20] receptor is like, Oh yeah, okay. Like, I don't have to resist discomfort. But it's different. You [00:53:25] see some people, 45 minutes a day, every day, you gotta, you know, rock while you're walking on ground [00:53:30] up glass. And it doesn't take that much time.
And it's about intensity. And [00:53:35] it's about, Your state during the intensity versus grit, which is also valuable. Grit is important, but [00:53:40] it depletes willpower. And I'm talking about giving you more willpower so you could have more grit later if you need [00:53:45] it.
Alberto: Yeah. And, and grit frequently will override systems instead of [00:53:50] enhancing the systems that you want to enhance.
Being able to sit with [00:53:55] the, uh, with the uncomfortable, even at the emotional level. You know, we're talking about the physical [00:54:00] level, but at the emotional, we call that jaguar medicine at the level of jaguar. You're going to sit with [00:54:05] uncomfortable feelings. Your partner's saying something that you want to hide from.
You know, we [00:54:10] guys talk about our feelings for about three minutes and not three hours. So
Dave: three minutes of pain I was [00:54:15] talking about. I'm with you.
Alberto: Yeah. Yeah. So you're sitting with the uncomfortable and breathing into [00:54:20] it and not trying to hide from it and not trying to, uh, deflect it [00:54:25] and just simply being with it.
And it's amazing, humble how quickly, uh, this [00:54:30] energy dissipates of, of anger or fear. S resentment towards someone, [00:54:35] towards somebody, usually somebody you love dearly. And then you gotta do it at, in at a [00:54:40] higher level, which is the, um. Which is the kind of the spiritual level. [00:54:45] What's, what is your mission? What are you coming here to do?
Are you, are you coming to, [00:54:50] uh, what's, what's driving you? What do you wake up in the morning to? So, [00:54:55] what, and there you got to ask the three questions that every spiritual [00:55:00] tradition posses, which are who am I, where do I come [00:55:05] from, and where am I going?
Dave: Do you have answers to those for you?
Alberto: Yeah, yeah, [00:55:10] they change periodically.
Dave: So who are
Alberto: you? Well, you know, the other day I woke up [00:55:15] in the morning with a question. I said, who am I? I'm just a piece of crap, you know? [00:55:20] And then I said, well, maybe I could become fertilizer for something. I [00:55:25] wasn't, you know, maybe I could nurture something or someone. [00:55:30] And, um, and you got, yeah, I, I spend time with the questions [00:55:35] is what will get you on a quest.
The answer frequently. [00:55:40] Preempts and avoids the quest. The quest is a journey. So [00:55:45] that's where the questions take you. The answers will take you into. Okay, I got that covered. Been there, done [00:55:50] that.
Dave: So fascinating. Alberto, thanks for your new Grow a New Brain [00:55:55] book. And for just sharing this very unique, but. a meaningful [00:56:00] and scientific perspective.
It's this cool blend of your mindset and things like NRF2 [00:56:05] and CERT and these other longevity compounds that we talk about on the show. So you've blended them in a new [00:56:10] and unique way that I think only you could do, given that, you know, you're the Western guy who went to the [00:56:15] jungle and stayed for a long time when you couldn't find the drugs you wanted.
So you have this amazing [00:56:20] story. Of your life, and this is a masterful work, and thanks for coming back on the [00:56:25] show, and I cannot wait to hang out with you in Santa Fe again.
Alberto: Thank you, Dave. Looking forward to seeing you as [00:56:30] well. Thank you. Thank you, everyone.
Dave: Guys, go buy Grow a New Brain by [00:56:35] Alberto Viado. If you'd like to get that perspective on, well, science and spirit, they can both [00:56:40] coexist.
In fact, I dare you to do one without the other and see how well it works. See you on the next [00:56:45] episode. See you next time on the Human Upgrade [00:56:50] Podcast.