Navigating the Quantum Field: Healing & Connection

[00:00:00] Dave: You’re listening to The Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. Today we have an incredible guest and a friend who is going to talk with you about quantum physics, consciousness, and the power of intention. These are things that are really annoying as a biohacker because it would be so much easier if we were just little meat robots, little meat puppets maybe.

[00:00:28] And we all did things the same way, and things were just mechanistic in the world. Except that’s not how it works. It’s not even a very functional model of reality. And Lynn McTaggart is an award-winning journalist, best-selling author, and someone I’ve known for more than a decade, who’s been studying, what are the things that don’t meet the model that we can measure, things that are provable, that are scientific.

[00:01:00] And what you find is, wow, there really is stuff like that going on. And her groundbreaking book is called The Field, which came out a little bit more than 20 years ago and still stands the test of time. And she basically said, look, there’s a quantum energy field that connects all living things. And if that makes you react right now, and you’re reacting with something besides curiosity, I hate to tell you. You’ve probably been programmed. 

[00:01:31] So it’s okay for someone to say, here’s a theory, and for it to be right or wrong. But if someone says, here’s a theory, and you immediately have a visceral response that it can’t be that way, seriously, you need to get a therapist, because it’s okay to disagree with someone.

[00:01:46] But if you ever take the time to read one of Lynn’s books, or to talk with her in person, or hear what we’re going to go through today, you might learn some other things, like her book, The Power of Eight, talking about why eight people coming together makes a field, or The Intention Experiment, or her other book called The Bond.

[00:02:05] These are tests of reality, test of spirituality, test of intention, and how it all comes together. And that’s why I wanted to talk with her on the show today and share some more of her work with you. We are both part of Jack Canfield’s Transformational Leadership Council, which is a group of leaders, and authors, and creators, and teachers in the personal development movement, and so we have a chance, maybe every year or so, to spend some time in person, which is always fun. Lynn, welcome to The Human Upgrade.

[00:02:41] Lynne: I’m thrilled to be here, Dave. Thanks for inviting me. 

[00:02:44] Dave: Can you tell me about quantum field therapy? Just summarize it for me.

[00:02:50] Lynne: We are told, through conventional science, that we are separate and well-behaved entities operating according to fixed laws in time and space. That is the paradigm we’ve been sold. That’s the scientific story we’re told. And it’s really something that’s more than 300 years old, thanks to Isaac Newton, that describes such a world of separate objects.

[00:03:17] We’re also told that those objects compete for survival, thanks to Charles Darwin. So we got our paradigm of competitive individualism essentially from these two people, which has really formed our understanding of our world, of ourselves, of science. 

[00:03:38] But new science– and I say new– it’s actually science that begun to be discovered about a 100 years ago but also followed up about 40 or 50 years ago with investigators, scientists from prestigious universities around the world, who began discovering a little bit of a puzzle that, put together, is a completely new view of the world.

[00:04:07] And at the heart of this is something in quantum physics that physicists have known about for more than a 100 years, which is that when you get right down to our subatomic particles, the very nethermost level of our being, we’re not an anything yet. We are a vibrating energy trade, trading with each other, other subatomic particles, but also this quantum field out there, sitting out there like a supercharged backdrop in empty space.

[00:04:42] And what they recognized, and we are now having to recognize through so much evidence now, is that we are all part of this field. And that really changes the game completely, because it indicates that, at some level, we are all connected, and also, at some level, we can access all the information out there in the field.

[00:05:10] Dave: What if I don’t like it that I’m part of the field and want to opt out? What are my choices? 

[00:05:15] Lynne: That’s not a choice available to you, Dave. Most of us actually don’t operate as though we’re part of a field. We operate according to a sense of being separate and also there not being enough out there, so we better damn well get there first. That’s our model, and that’s how we live. But unfortunately, you are part of this.

[00:05:41] Your subatomic particles are doing an energy trade with other subatomic particles. Whether you like it or not, you don’t enter the field. A lot of people ask me, how do I get there? Enter the field. And I say, you’re not entering the field. You are the field. You’re part of this field, but we don’t experience life like that.

[00:06:02] The only time I see people experiencing a real sense of oneness, I have to say, is during group intention, like with the Power of 8, with my intention experiments. People experience a sense of oneness, and they actually get to feel like, oh, this is what it is. And we know this through a lot of brainwave studies, but generally, you are the field, whether you like it or not.

[00:06:29] Dave: And you say I am the field. But if I’m with seven other people doing focused intention work, am I still the field?

[00:06:40] Lynne: Oh, you’re all always part of the field because you’re all part of the field. We have to realize this is pretty democratic. Everybody listening to this, everybody in the universe is part of the field. All things are part of the field. All living things are part of the field. 

[00:06:56] Dave: What about the thing?

[00:06:57] Lynne: So it’s not only us and not them over there are part of the field. It’s everybody. It’s just that when people come together in a small or large group, which I discovered after writing the field, I was curious about some of the evidence that I’d found from some of these scientists demonstrating that thoughts, or things, and not only things, but things that affect other things.

[00:07:25] And so being the nosy, and curious, and skeptical journalist that I am at heart, I wanted to know, okay, how far can we take this? We talking about curing cancer with our thoughts. What can we do with this? And what happens if lots of people are thinking the same thought at the same time?

[00:07:46] So that’s how I got into looking at studying quantifying group intention. And when you say we put people in a group of eight, what I have found is when people come together in a group, two things happen. Lots of things happen, but one is their thoughts as a group magnify their effects of intention that we’ve demonstrated and that have been demonstrated in loads and loads of evidence, and study, and research.

[00:08:17] Their thoughts, which can affect things, actually affect things more. When I was looking at intention and the fact that thoughts are things, this was evident when I was studying the field. There were scientists who were experimenting with the power of intention. And they found that they could affect everything from single cell organisms to full-fledged human beings.

[00:08:46] So thoughts weren’t just things. Thoughts were things that affect other things. So the skeptical journalist in me wanted to know how far we can take this. Are we talking about a very subtle effect, like affecting a quantum particle? Or are we talking about curing cancer with your thoughts?

[00:09:06] And I also was curious, what happens when lots of people come together at the same time? And decided to test that with a thing called the intention experiment because I knew lots of scientists working in consciousness research, and I also had a good number of readers by that time because the field was in 30 languages.

[00:09:30] So I thought if I brought them together, I could have the biggest global laboratory in the world. And that’s what happened. I started testing the power of intention, inviting my readers every so often to send intention to some well-organized, well-controlled target set up by one of the scientists.

[00:09:53]  We’ve run 40 experiments to date, everything from trying to make seeds grow faster, to purifying water, to lowering violence in war-torn areas, to healing someone of post traumatic stress. Of those 40, 36 have shown measurable, positive, mostly significant effects as recorded,  and studied, and quantified by these scientists. 

[00:10:20] Now, getting back to the group of eight, that came about when I tried to shrink this down in a workshop back in 2008. I thought, if we have these effects on a giant scale, what happens with just a small group? So I decided to do it in a workshop, and I thought it was going to be a very mild little feel-good effect, like getting your back rubbed, or something like that.

[00:10:47] But that’s not what happened. With these first groups, we did it on a Saturday. I told them to come back the next day. And I didn’t discuss what I was going to ask them, but I asked them, okay, any change? And I was shocked to hear the result. We had somebody who was limping all weekend, who was walking normally that day. And she said, I have bad arthritis, but I’m walking normally today. 

[00:11:12] And somebody else with depression said, it really feels lifting today. And somebody else with Irritable bowel syndrome said, my gut’s normal today. And somebody else with cataracts said, I’m about 80% better.  So I was shocked by this, but I started testing it, experimenting with it, and I’ve worked with thousands of people over the years and seen thousands of healings. 

[00:11:44] Getting back to your original question, what happens in a group is that we do experience the field. I’ve done some brainwave studies with teams of neuroscientists, and we’ve found that when people come together to intend in a small group, doesn’t have to be exactly eight, by the way. Seven works. Nine works. 12 works, but a small group.

[00:12:12] What happens is, in the brain, the parts of the brain that make us feel separate, very quickly turn off. Those are the parietal lobes back here. They help us navigate through space. They tell us, this is me. This is not me. This is how to go. Those are dialed way down, and that is very much involved in making us feel separate. 

[00:12:37] And so do the parts of the brain, like the right frontal lobes, the executive function, and parts of those that are involved with worry, doubt, negativity, those are also dialed way down. So people are in a state of ecstatic oneness. Brainwave study is almost sidentical to those done by the University of Pennsylvania on Sufi masters doing chanting, or Buddhist monks in ecstatic prayer. So the long and short of it is power of 8 groups get people in an altered state of essentially a mystical state, like ecstatic oneness. And then we actually feel the field.

[00:13:20] Dave: Wow. So you move into a state, then you feel the field, but you don’t feel the field unless you’re in the state?

[00:13:30] Lynne: We don’t normally because we have been programmed to look at the world from a certain way. Also, we all have this healing capacity in us. Everybody is born with this amazing gift, but it’s denied. As children, we all know it, but our authority figures tell us, you’re just imagining things. You don’t really have that ability, all of those kinds of things.

[00:13:59] And so we stop believing it, and then we start thinking, okay, the world is as described, as I described before. We are all part of a lonely planet. And we’re lonely people on a lonely plane in a lonely universe. We are separate. But that isn’t reality. And I’ve seen it, as I say, thousands of times. I’ve seen two people get up out of their wheelchairs. Not only seen it. I’ve videoed it. 

[00:14:31] Dave: Yeah.

[00:14:32] Lynne: I’ve had dozens and dozens of people reverse end-stage cancer, and everything in between. So I know it exists. We just don’t experience life like that.

[00:14:44] Dave: And when you say that, there are definitely some people listening and going, that can’t happen, therefore it didn’t. One of the things that stands out about your work is you’re saying, let’s be curious about that. So let’s look at the percentage likelihood of this. Let’s document it well. And now we have Dr. Joe Dispenza, another mutual friend, who does– funny, there’s eight people doing healings, and he’s showing effects at least as strong as pharmaceutical drugs from eight people focusing on healing someone. 

[00:15:18] So what this means is, if you’re listening to this and you’re saying, I’ve never heard of any of this, look, your model of reality, well, functional isn’t accurate. Because everything we just talked about, which is not one example, it’s thousands of examples, that are well founded in science and statistics, if this is possible, which it’s more than possible– it is proven to exist to the highest standard– then your model might need an update. And I think you’re one of the very early voices talking about this in modernity. Of course, we’ve known about this for five or 10, 000 years in ancient traditions, right?

[00:15:57] Lynne: Absolutely. I’m just bringing science to it. And I know Joe was very influenced by the work I was doing. And we’ve talked about it many times. He’s a dear friend.

[00:16:08] Dave: Yeah, he definitely talks about you and is very open with sharing credit. And he has his own body of work that’s pretty enormous. You can tell. You can see your work when you go to a Joe workshop. There’s eight people for a reason.

[00:16:24] Lynne: As I say, it doesn’t have to be eight. Eight is, by the way, like a Goldilocks figure. It’s not too big. It’s not too little. And it’s got a lot of symbolic ideas associated with it. It’s good luck in Chinese. It’s a sideways infinity sign. So there’s a lot of great things about eight.

[00:16:46] What I tried to do is document why this works. As you say, for those people in the audience who say it can’t work, it can’t work for me. So I do it in two ways– many ways, actually. Studying things and looking at the science of it, et cetera. But I’ve done it with intention experiments, working with Princeton University, University of Arizona, Penn State University, University of California, and many European universities.

[00:17:18] And we’ve set up very controlled experiments. I’ll give you an example of a great peace intention experiment. We decided to choose the most violent place in America, which happens to be St. Louis, Missouri, believe it or not. And there’s an area of St. Louis that is particularly violent. It is the most violent place in America.

[00:17:41] It’s called Fairground. And if you saw the real estate there, it’s pretty shocking. So we did an experiment 10 minutes a day for six days, where me and my audience around the world focused on Fairground. And I worked with a statistician, a professor of statistics called Dr. Jessica Utts of the University of California.

[00:18:10] We got hold of police data of violence of St. Louis as a whole, different neighborhoods around Fairground, and Fairground. We looked at violence data, and property crime. All of them had been going absolutely inexorably up. So we looked at it for three years before and six months afterward, and we found that all of the areas, St. Louis as a whole, all the neighborhoods, violent crime continued to go up. So did property crime. 

[00:18:44] In Fairground, property crime continued to go up, but violent crime, the focus of our intention, went down by 43%. And it was the only area in that whole part of St. Louis, or St. Louis as a whole, where that happened. So we’ve done that, and we’ve also done very controlled experiments with water, and seeds, and all kinds of things. And it’s clear. There’s no pharmaceutical drug out there that can claim, out of 40 experiments, 36 have shown measurable, positive, mostly significant effects.

[00:19:22] Dave: Wow.

[00:19:23] Lynne: And what I’ve seen in the Power of 8 groups, in terms of documenting it, not only those brainwave studies, but what happens when I put people in a group for a year. That’s what I do when I work with them. When I first saw these effects, I thought, oh, what if I taught them for six weeks. I taught them live and interactive, and I mean live on Zoom, and then put them into groups and have them meet with each other every week. Let’s see what happens. Would everything in their lives begin to heal?

[00:19:59] And I can tell you heart on hand, or hand on heart, that those people who continue to meet regularly– that’s the big secret sauce– are the people who experience health healings, financial healings, relationship healings, new careers, a new life purpose. Those are the people. And it’s complex, but that’s the important thing.

[00:20:28] You don’t need to prime for this. You don’t need hours of priming or any kind of thing like that with a group. What you need is a consistent group, and they become essentially your attention family. And it is that alchemy that creates the healing.

[00:20:50] Dave: It feels like the repeated meetings. It feels like your energy fields get to know each other. And there’s knowingness where you see someone, you’ve talked to them, and then they feel comfortable with you. There’s a group called YPO, or Young Presidents Organization.

[00:21:11] And this is a group of entrepreneurs. There’s a chapter probably in your city, and I’ve been a member for a long time. And you have to have started or be running a 10-million-dollar plus company. I was in Dubai, and I was hanging out with the YPO people there, so a very global organization. But they put people in seven-person, not eight-person forums, and they’ll be together sometimes for years where they meet every month and go through stuff.

[00:21:39] And it feels like there’s an energetic that comes in that small number. And you also see in MBA research. The maximum effective size of a team is seven or eight people. That’s enough. You can know everyone. You know what’s going on, but there’s a team vibe that comes together that seems like it’s part of manifesting. Am I translating that right?

[00:21:59] Lynne: Yeah, absolutely. I think several things happen, Dave. First of all, when  you look at all of the evidence about human beings, you see that we need to belong. We need to belong more than we need to eat, essentially. The worst thing you can do to someone is to ostracize them. 

[00:22:18] And in fact, this evidence shows, from psychology, that people who commit suicide suffer from what psychologists call excessive individuation. Translation. They feel left out. And being left out is the thing that we can’t bear the most. So suddenly, you have a little tribe that meets every week, that has your back, that is intending for you.

[00:22:45] And remember, with intention groups, seven eighths of the time, you’re intending for someone else. And something about all of that is so healing and strengthening. One of the big pieces of my work is altruism. We all talk about self-help, but my work is other-help. And the reason this is so important is, in science, when you look at the evidence for altruism, it’s like a bulletproof vest.

[00:23:17] People who do stuff for other people live longer, healthier, happier lives. Anything. Volunteering. It’s something like they’re 40% more likely to live a longer life. If you join a group, according to Harvard University, just one group, bowling group, book club, whatever, you will have your chances of dying.

[00:23:41] So connection and altruism are really important. If you’re ill and you help somebody with the same illness, you’re more likely to heal. But I tell you what, there was one piece of evidence that absolutely clinched it for me. It was a study of two groups of people. They wanted to see how lifestyle affected the immune system. 

[00:24:06] First group, super successful, super wealthy, pleasure seekers, they called them. Went on every holiday, loads of money to spend, all of that, but no real noble pursuit, as Aristotle would call it. When they looked at their immune systems, they thought these are going to be really good. These people are living the good life. They’re living the dream. They were terrible, Dave. They were perfect candidates for heart attacks, stroke, Alzheimer’s. They didn’t have a noble pursuit.

[00:24:43] Whereas the other group of people, maybe not as successful, but they were living a life of service. These people had totally robust immune systems. They were going to live forever. That, to me, spoke volumes about why Power of 8 groups work. It gets them into a state of altruism. And that is one of the big secret sauces.

[00:25:10] But the other bit of this that’s really important, why groups are powerful, is that state of oneness. So I have this year-long intention masterclass that I run. And one of the people who came on, one of my students, was a guy called Jerry. And at the end of the year, Jerry said he loved it so much that he joined again. 

[00:25:38] Now, he learned all the same stuff, but he had another group. We assign the groups. Our team does. And he loved that group too. And by the end, he said, I’ve had all my miracles, but the most important thing for me was compassion, love. I ‘ve had more of that during the COVID season than I’ve had at any point in my life. He said, I now know what love is. 

[00:26:07] And that’s another aspect of healing. We forget that so much in our lives. We really do. And so it’s that healing connection of people who have your back, that state of oneness I told you about. It doesn’t need priming. Our study with neuroscientists, we worked with Life University, the largest and most prestigious chiropractic university in the world.

[00:26:33] They put their neuroscience team at our disposal. We measured what was going on. And as I said, these parts of the brain turned off. But this was in total novices who had never done anything like meditation before, certainly never Power of 8 groups. And it happened within a minute or so. So you don’t need exhaustive priming like you do with a Buddhist monk, or years of practice like a Sufi master.

[00:27:02] You can do this within a few minutes, and I’ve seen people, as I say, get up out of their wheelchairs or cure a genetic disease. We’ve had lots of those too. Two people cured going blind. They were going blind, and it the reversed to that, retinal detachment, and other things with one Power of 8 group.

[00:27:26] That’s how powerful it is. But as I say, I think a really important point, and you made it to with your Young Presidents Group, is the consistency of meeting over and over again. That is powerful. That creates your tribe. And that’s a root for your healing.

[00:27:45] Dave: There’s data that shows most people in the US– maybe not most– the average number of friends. I’m bastardizing the statistics, but basically the number of people who report having more than one good friend is at astoundingly low levels, much less having eight people where they get together once a week.

[00:28:08] In my own experience as a father, you might have this in your late 20s, early 30s, and then you all start having kids, and then it just falls apart because your kids are different ages, and they’re pooping on themselves and doing all the stuff that kids do. So how do people in practice really do this? Do you have to be in person? Can you do this remotely? Can you do it every other week? How do you make this fit into a normal life?

[00:28:33] Lynne: Okay. That’s such a great question. You can meet in person, and that is very powerful. And I do that, retreats, weekend workshops, and all of that kinds of thing. But most of the people I know who are meeting in Power of 8 groups do so virtually. In my masterclass, everybody is assigned people in their time zones.

[00:28:57] But they’re working virtually, so they’re meeting on Zoom. They’re meeting like we’re meeting right now. And what we suggest, really, really emphasize and encourage people to do is one hour, once a week. Most people can find an hour once a week to meet. And as I say, we even put people into their preferred time zone, their preferred meeting times, morning, afternoon, night. And the people who are successful at the end of the year, the people who have amazing stories to tell, are the people who showed up all the time. But isn’t that true in all of life?

[00:29:37] Dave: it’s true. The people who show up and do the work consistently, whether it’s meditation or breathwork, or neurofeedback, or a gratitude practice, or cold tubs, any of the biohacks, if you have knowledge of a biohack and you only do it once every six months, it probably isn’t going to work very well. So the showing up thing, it works. And you’re saying it works for something like this.

[00:29:56] What happens if it’s not eight people, but it’s 80 million people at the same time? What happens?

[00:30:03] Lynne: Okay. That’s a great question, Dave. First of all, I should say that size of group doesn’t seem to matter. And we know this because we’ve done several studies where we’ve repeated it with different-sized groups to see if it supersized even more with a bigger group.

[00:30:23] So, for instance, I did an experiment, this is back in 2007, the University of Arizona, and I worked with the team there headed by Dr. Gary Schwartz, a noted psychologist, who has an entire consciousness lab. They set up four sets of seeds, 30 seeds each, labeled them A, B, C, D. Sent me the photos of them, and I was about to speak in front of an audience of about 700 in Sydney, Australia. So I thought, oh, this is an interesting test of this. 

[00:30:56] So I showed the audience the four pictures. I allowed them to choose which one we were going to intend for. Let’s say it was Seeds A. We did intention for Seeds A. Didn’t tell the scientists when we were doing it, or which seeds we chose. But when we were done, we just told them, okay, now you can plant the seeds. So that was their cue. We still didn’t tell them which seeds. 

[00:31:23] They let them grow, measured them four or five days later, whichever we had specified, and then I unblinded the study once they were finished measuring them. Lo and behold, the seed sent intention grew significantly higher than the controls. Now, we ran that six times. We had a much smaller audience. We had a workshop of about a 100 in New York. We had a big audience of touch practitioners in South Carolina, about 800.

[00:31:58] We had a big audience in California. We had a smaller audience in Dallas, Texas. And then I ran it over the internet with thousands of people from around the world, doing intention, sending it to my website. And lo and behold, we got the same result, no matter what size group.

[00:32:18] So we realized, from that in some other studies like this, that it didn’t matter what size. There is the Maharishi Effect, where they say you need the square root of 1% of the world’s population meditating, and the crime rate will go down. And they have some very compelling studies of meditation, a certain quota of the population studying and performing meditation in different cities as the crime rate go down. 

[00:32:49] Our work’s different from that in that we have a specific intention that we’re doing, a very specific intention, not just an exercise like meditation, where, obviously, it’s changing individuals, and there’s no doubt a field effect caused by that. But this is a different procedure.

[00:33:09] So size doesn’t seem to matter. What seems to matter is being specific. Let’s unpack this for a minute. I told you about the seeds experiment, so just think about this for a second. I’m in Sydney, Australia. The seeds are in Tucson, Arizona. So my audience and I are intending for something that is 8,000 miles away.

[00:33:36] Plus the fact we’re sending an intention to the photo. We’re not even intending to the thing itself. We’re sending an intention to the photographic representation of those seeds, a symbol, essentially, of those seeds. And yet it’s still having an effect. That to me is the big mind blower because it’s suggesting that we have some sort of psychic internet when we do group intention that can reach across the miles, that can be stimulated by just a symbol and affect the target.

[00:34:13] Dave: There’s abundant evidence that quantum effects are real. So if two particles are entangled, a change to one creates change in the other instantaneously with no lag time. There’s no speed of light required. There’s also evidence, relatively recent evidence that shows every time your heart beats, the proton spin of everything in your brain changes with your heartbeat, which is very strong physics-based proof that we are quantum systems, even if we think of ourselves as chemical or electrical systems, where those are higher level writing on top of quantum.

[00:34:45] So there’s a mechanism for this to be real and for it to work. And then we have Stan Grof’s work. And for listeners– I know that you know of Stan’s work– Stan Grof wrote a book called The Holotropic Universe, Holographic Universe. Which one was it? Do you remember?

[00:35:04] Lynne: Holographic Universe with Michael Talbot. 

[00:35:07] Dave: He writes about holotropic breathing. I did a breathwork event with him. I hosted one for the Upgrade Collective years ago, and interviewed him a couple of times. And he says, the whole universe is a holograph. And in a holograph, when you break something apart, there’s basically a map of the whole in each picture, no matter how hard or how small you go.

[00:35:30] And his argument is that reality is actually a big holograph. And this is all weird, mind bending stuff. But if that’s real, then you should be able to look at a picture of something because the entire universe is in the picture. It just helps you to focus your intention, right?

[00:35:48] Lynne: Yeah, there’s are so many mechanisms at work here, and we’re just beginning to discover, as you say, quantum effects in our bodies, quantum effects in all kinds of things, the world at large, because the belief, even in current science and mainstream science is that there’s a science of the small, the quantum effects, and there’s a science of the large. 

[00:36:15] Now that never made sense to me because I thought, oh, right, subatomic particles do all these weird things like entanglement, non-locality, superposition, until they realize they’re part of something bigger. And then they start behaving themselves and acting according to mainstream physics, the more mainstream rules of the game. That never made sense to me. 

[00:36:39] And we’re now seeing that, for instance, photosynthesis, the very crucible of a plant that takes sunlight and turns it into oxygen, which makes us all be able to be here, is a quantum process. Electrons in there are operating in a state of superposition, essentially. 

[00:37:02] And other studies are showing that giant molecules, molecules you could even see under a microscope, are operating according to quantum principles. So the problem isn’t with the physics of the small and the physics of the large. The problem is our knowledge is just beginning to understand that this is the physics of the world at large.

[00:37:29] Dave: Yeah, there will have to be alignment of those models. And funny enough, all the big physics models don’t describe reality that well. Like, ah, that describes it within a couple of percentage points. And when you get the quantum people who come out like,[Inaudible] has been on the show a while ago, he says, I figured out how to use other math, and I can beat the standard model by 8%, which standard model is how they predict physics.

[00:37:54] And they chased him out of CERN and wouldn’t let him speak there because he’s a ski instructor, not a physics PhD. And we talked about it on the show. So it turns out there’s different ways of modeling reality, and if your model doesn’t account for quantum effects and be able to predict the very largest things we know, then your model isn’t an accurate representation of reality.

[00:38:16] And so then now we feel deeply unsafe because you mean the story I’ve told myself about the entire universe is probably false? Yeah. And if that makes you feel unsafe, you should get a therapist, or maybe do some breathwork or something, because you’re exactly as safe as you were before, whether or not you knew the nature of reality.

[00:38:34] The reality is you don’t know the nature of reality. I don’t know. Lynn doesn’t know. We’re just all figuring it out. And we’ll probably be figuring out for as long as there’s life in the universe. That’s just how it works.

[00:38:46] Lynne: And we should remember too, Dave, that science is just a story. We act as though science is this finite truth, and that everything that we are supposed to know has largely been written.

[00:39:01] Dave: But you have to trust the science. A very important person told me that recently.

[00:39:05] Lynne: That what?

[00:39:06] Dave: A very important person recently said, trust the science. And they were telling only the truth. There’s nothing made up. There’s no financial motive in there at all, right?

[00:39:15] Lynne: Oh, no. And we all know that pharmaceutical companies are doing this for philanthropy, of course.

[00:39:22] Dave: Yeah, and for science. It’s only science.

[00:39:26] Lynne: We all know that that’s not true, looking at the state of side effects from pharmaceutical drugs. We know that a lot of that data is very, very suspect. But even if we weren’t going to look at things like that, where there is a financial component to the outcome of the studies, and that determines the outcome.

[00:39:49] They used to say, there’s no such thing as rocks coming from the sky because rocks don’t come from the sky, until they realized, actually, there are asteroids that happen. And all of those kinds of things, from thinking the world was flat. Science is a story. And new chapters are constantly written that rewrite the chapters before. 

[00:40:13] And so it’s a constantly written story. We can’t ever say, yeah, we’ve got it all figured out. And as Nassim says, the standard model is about as close to reality as a cyborg is to a human. It’s a little model they’ve invented to try to say, yeah, we figured it all out.

[00:40:33] We found it. Here it is, the smallest piece of the universe. And I always say, it’s a bit like Russian dolls. You know those little dolls where you open one up and a little one is inside of it? That’s what happened with science. They keep thinking, yeah, I found the smallest piece of the universe. And because I know that, I can figure out all the other pieces and put it all together like one great big old radio. But the problem is, every time they look, there’s another littler doll inside. So we’re still discovering, just as you say, Dave. 

[00:41:13] Dave: Yeah, I’m just agreeing with you. We’re figuring it out. And thinking about it, I’m working with one guy who’s working with an unknown subatomic particle. And this has huge effects on biology, but no one has measured it before, and it isn’t acknowledged. So there’s all kinds of stuff. And that’s why in the world of biohacking, I just want to find the outliers. Like, oh, how does that person seem to be able to do this?

[00:41:38] Is it transmissible? What is the state of the person? Can we make it teachable? And that’s behind some of my 40 Years of Zen work and longevity. If one person can make it to 120, we can probably do better than that over the next 100 years. So it’s the things that don’t match that are the gold, but unfortunately, we’re programmed– I don’t want to say taught even– just to automatically reject those and to be unable to see them because they’re impossible because we believe so strongly in our story.

[00:42:08] And somehow, you broke out of that and started asking questions and gathering data. Once you start gathering data, it gets easier and easier to break out of it because you can see the data and like, oh, I’m onto something here. I want to ask you about new modalities that support your work.

[00:42:25] Wouldn’t it be fun if you could do neurofeedback, but with a SPECT scan or fMRI? And for listeners, SPECT is what Dr. Daniel Amen has used to scan hundreds of thousands of brains. Dear friend. I’m on his board of directors, and his SPECT can change my life. fMRI is similar.

[00:42:42] And then you have things like MEG. We’re using magnetic signals coming out of the brain and HEG, which is blood flow, in addition to EEG, which is electrical signals, which is the primary modality I work with. So all this new understanding of the brain, since you wrote your first book, has it supported your theories? Has it proven them? Is it going against them? What’s the latest state of understanding the fields and intention?

[00:43:09] Lynne: Let’s look at functional MRI. Walter Schimp revolutionized MRI scanning, which used to take hugely long time. And he did this 20 years ago, or whatever, making it functional so that we could watch a brain in real time, essentially, just see how it works. That operates through getting information that is holographic out of the body.

[00:43:39] He was a really early proponent of holography, and in fact, came up with a whole theory with numerous people, including the late astronaut Edgar Mitchell, called quantum holography. So they were actually using that to create this imagery that we now use widely. When you say other modalities, do they support the stuff that I do?

[00:44:08] Absolutely, because we see that we used QEEGs to study brainwave mechanisms during Power of 8 groups. And we found, as I say, as I talked about before, extraordinary outcomes because we thought what we were going to see was brainwave signatures that were identical to meditation. And I was, and so was the lead neuroscientist and the team, all shocked to see that the brainwave signatures look nothing like meditation.

[00:44:45] They were the opposite of meditation. Meditation causes an increase in slower brainwave activity, like alpha waves and even theta waves. Ours were turned off. Ours were brainwaves that were turning down. We were people in, as I say, an altered state, a state of ecstatic oneness. And so the equipment just proved what we were seeing empirically, what we were seeing from people, what was going on. 

[00:45:18] Dave: When you say they shut down, are you saying that there were just no brainwaves or that the amplitude of the brain was lower? There was a shift towards Delta? What does that mean?

[00:45:28] Lynne: No. There are different brain waves that the brain has, different speeds of brain waves. In certain parts of the brain, there was less activity. So the parietal lobes, the temporal lobes and parts of the right frontal lobes were turned way down. They was far less activity there.

[00:45:48] So these were people where it was dialed down. And as I say, the brainwave signatures look nothing like meditation, but they look virtually identical to the work done by Dr. Andrew Newberg, using some of this equipment you’re talking about as well to look at Buddhist monks during ecstatic prayer, nuns during ecstatic prayer, Sufi masters during chanting, and Sufi dance, all in a state of ecstatic oneness. Virtually identical brainwave signatures as what we’re seeing with a group of people doing an intention to one member of the group for 10 minutes. 

[00:46:29] Dave: This is really important. I talk about this a lot in when we’re talking about neurofeedback, because 40 Years of Zen is so focused on that. Number one, it is a group activity. You’re doing it in a small group, up to eight people, surprisingly. I wonder why that is. And what people like to say is, oh look, I raised alpha brainwaves, or I raised gamma brainwaves. Woo-hoo. 

[00:46:55] Actually, no. That’s like saying I made C note. I made [Inaudible]. Great. Were you laying a song? Was it an Eminem song, or was it Mozart? They have different vibes in them. And what you’re talking about isn’t that you had more of this or that. It was that it was the right frequency at the right part of the brain in the right order, which is more of a musical resonance kind of a thing. And then when you have eight people doing that, were their brains all incoherence with each other, or were they each playing a different instrument?

[00:47:30] Lynne: I don’t use the term coherence because, in physics, that means something very specific. I know it’s used a lot and by lots of my dear friends. In physics, it means not just your body is somehow operating in sync. What it means is a resonance effect, as you said. So waves. Let’s take sound waves because you talked about sound.

[00:47:57] So they do that. They do a sideways S, and most waves do that. When lots of waves are doing the same thing at the same time, they’re peaking and troughing at the same time. That makes the signal much louder. So that’s why a laser is so bright compared to an individual light bulb. It’s all of the waves are waving at the same time.

[00:48:22] When people are doing the same intention at the same time, and they’re literally holding the same words at the same time, in my way of doing it, as you say, we’re not measuring, hey, didn’t we get more of this or less of that? We’re seeing, essentially, people brains in sync. 

[00:48:43] We’re seeing people and brains– so what happens in guitar playing, or any musical instrument playing, I don’t measure what happens with brainwaves in guitar players, let’s say. But there have been studies showing that when two guitar players start playing together, their brainwaves operate in synchrony very quickly.

[00:49:06] So some of that is going on, but I want to make the point that I was curious what was going on in the brains of my participants. So we did this study with student volunteers, as I said, who had never done this before, never even meditated before. Got this amazing outcome to see what was going on inside.

[00:49:28] But I don’t measure that. I measure, what happened in their lives? Did they heal those cataracts? Did they reverse their blindness? Are they standing up out of their wheelchair? Have they made up with their estranged partner, or found new love in their lives, or found an amazing new job? And that’s my measurement. How did it work in the world?

[00:49:53] And here’s a key thing too, Dave, that we haven’t talked about, which is the effect of being a sender. I told you there’s an altruistic component to this, but I find that the results work for people– they heal an aspect of their lives, all of their life– as much when they’re senders as when they’re receivers.

[00:50:17] It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. Example of this, a guy I met called Wes I had asked for a volunteer group of intenders at one of the new-age churches, the Mile Hi Church outside of Denver. So I assembled two groups. He was in one of them. He was going to put himself forward as a receiver.

[00:50:41] And these guys had never done this before. They were just volunteers. They were in the same room. He’s going to put himself forward because he had suffered from depression for his whole life after university because in the last year of university –he was studying to be a biochemist– he got called up for the very last year of the Vietnam War.

[00:51:04] The whole situation was so traumatic, and he couldn’t get out of it. There were no more student deferments last year of the war. Comes back, freaked out, quits university, and his life goes in a terrible downward spiral for years. Even meeting the love of his life, that didn’t last long. She had a fast-growing cancer. He dies. He has medical bills, so much so he has to give up his house, terrible story.

[00:51:32] Upshot is, when I meet him at 65, he can barely get out of bed. He is super depressed, sort of, what’s the use? So he was going to put himself forward, but somebody else had stage 4 cancer there. So he thought, she needs it more than me. So he does the intention, goes home.

[00:51:54] Next day, he wakes up, and it’s like all his senses are heightened. Everything’s in super technic color. That happens a lot with people in these Power of 8 groups. Then the next night, he has this dream, he calls it almost a vision, where he’s met his 19-year-old self. He’s back at campus where he never finished college.

[00:52:17] And his 19-year-old self somehow conveys to him, don’t worry. There’s still time. It’s like he undergoes a complete change. He then is suddenly like Scrooge on Christmas morning. He’s running around saying hi to everybody, and he had been avoiding people. He enrolls in a class. He starts doing exercise. He starts writing. He rejoins his church.

[00:52:43] It’s like his whole life restarted again. And I’ve seen that many times where people were stuck with something. Maybe they had a book they were trying to write and they couldn’t get anywhere. I will oftentimes say in my courses to people like that where they’re just keep getting intended for, and it’s not working.

[00:53:02] I will usually say, get off of yourself, start intending for somebody else, and see what happens. And invariably, something happens that next week. In this case, I’m thinking of Lisa. She was stuck. She couldn’t get her book written no matter what was going on. Her group kept intending for her. She was terrified about the process. And suddenly, she intends for someone else after I say, get off of yourself, Lisa.

[00:53:32] And the very next week, in a store she didn’t even need anything from, she feels compelled to go in there, she bumps into someone she barely knows. Turns out this woman’s a book coach. When she hears Lisa’s story, she offers to walk her through the whole process. Upshot is, Lisa writes a bestseller on Amazon. So I’ve seen that over and over and over again. The sending is just as powerful as the receiving.

[00:54:04] Dave: Yeah. This is that service to others thing. And having done the hands-on healing within, Joe Dispenza’s stuff, and I’m active in a local group here in Austin when I’m in town, and sometimes in Victoria when I’m home there. And what you find is that when you really get into the right state, maybe just because you’re synchronized there, all the other people doing healing, it does flow through to you.

[00:54:35] So you feel a very noticeable effect. It’s probably sometimes at least as strong as psychedelics just from entering the right state, and there’s no psychedelics at all, or breathwork, or anything. You just go into a certain state, and then all of a sudden, everyone else is in it, and then you go pretty deep.

[00:54:51] And yeah, I’ve felt very potent effects from it personally. And we’re taught to say, that’s probably because I’m crazy. Except everyone else is having the same effects, and we’re not all crazy. So I look at that as being scientific.

[00:55:07] Lynne: I survey people who take part in all of my intention experiments, and I started this in 2008, and I get back things like this. I felt like I was part of a higher network. I was crying uncontrollably. I had goosebumps up and down my arms. I felt enormous heat. I felt like there were hands holding my knee. And we’re talking about people who aren’t in contact with each other.

[00:55:39] They’re on Zoom together. That somebody was holding my knee to heal it. We have things like that. It is people evidencing being in an altered state, no question. And so there’s so many different mechanisms at work, but that’s what’s going on. And in my work, I don’t put people into groups for more than 10 minutes.

[00:56:03] This is all happening immediately. You don’t have to prime. You don’t have to spend hours priming, or minutes, even. It happens immediately, as it did with those volunteers in the Power of 8 study. We found it happened to people who had never done this within minutes.

[00:56:26] Dave: Wow. 10 minutes, eight people, once a week. How do you pick the eight people?

[00:56:33] Lynne: I don’t pick the eight people. For instance, my master class, I don’t pick. I don’t isolate, oh, these are the best ones. I just offer this to people who want to be part of a course. And so there’s two ways. There’s lots of ways people can join and do this. I have a community. It’s completely free.

[00:56:54] People can join and create a Power of 8 group, and I have free tools for people, etc. So people can just go on my website, lynnmctaggart.com, if they just want to be in a group and find that they can just advertise on my community site for, hey, I’m in this time zone. Anybody else want to join me?

[00:57:12] They can read my book, the Power of 8. People who take my courses, for instance, the master class, we put them into groups based on their location, their time zone, their preferred meeting times. We do all of that. And we even give their groups a name for them. I like to name people after Beatles songs.

[00:57:32] I’m a Beatle fan, and we needed lots of group names. So we’ve got Follow the Sun, and I Want to Hold Your Hand groups, and Yellow Submarine, and all of that. People just are randomly put in a group, and that’s the other secret sauce, Dave, because part of my course is saying here’s the way to use intention to get along with anybody, because a big bit of my work right now is using intention experiments to heal polarized communities.

[00:58:04] Dave: When you say anybody, does that include sociopaths, deep narcissists out to harm you? I’m not sure I want to get along with those people, but talk to me about that.

[00:58:18] Lynne: All right. It’s a self-selected group. We have very few cases of disturbed people who are in a class of mine for a year. It would have to be people who resonate with my stuff. And it’s like people who join your work. They probably are a bit self-selected anyway. So one or two people, and we keep tabs on them. And if there is somebody who is disturbing the group, we ask them to leave. 

[00:58:44] Dave: And they run for office. Got it. Yeah.

[00:58:49] Lynne: And they run for office. 

[00:58:52] Dave: A little but dark, but accurate.

[00:58:55] Lynne: Accurate. Yes. Hopefully not. They probably didn’t take a Power of 8 course. That was the problem.

[00:59:02] Dave: Yeah. Maybe for a sociopath, they can hang out in there. In fact, I know they can. The people who are intentionally doing evil, they’ll do it in the field as well. But the narcissists, they don’t know that they’re doing evil. They think they’re doing good, but they’re doing evil.

[00:59:19] And for them, I think they’d have a really hard time being resonant with the field, because they’re doing one thing and believing another, and there’s such a dissonance in there that they probably just wouldn’t line up. And if they did line up, they would have to face whatever trauma made them into a narcissist in order to be able to do this kind of work. So it’s an interesting thought experiment.

[00:59:41] Lynne: It is. And think about it this way. Do you think a narcissist would want to do other-help? Seven days to the time, they’re doing intention for someone else. They might not like that. So it may not appeal to them anyway.

[00:59:54] Dave: Yeah, it would appeal if they could take credit for it. So a true narcissist, literally, if they’re working on someone with cancer and the person died, they would believe that they extended the person’s life, and that they were successful in what they did, and they were a hero, even though there’s a body in front of you. But in their self-story, there’s not a body. It’s that denial of reality that causes so much harm because, for sane people, we’re like, what is going on here?

[01:00:23] Lynne: I know. I know, Dave. Luckily, we just haven’t had much of that. As I say, we’ve had one or two people who have had some issues. And we’ve removed them, but tried to help them in some way.

[01:00:38] Dave: Yeah, that’s not– 

[01:00:39] Lynne: We listen to the group too. If the group is getting disturbed by it, then we are — members of my team are in touch with people through the year. So, as I say, we handhold with them, and I have intention clinics, where I meet them again, every few months after doing the whole training in the beginning of the course. And I keep in touch. I send them all kinds of things, challenges, etc., so we’re in touch. We’re in touch. 

[01:01:10] Dave: So you’re in touch. And I’m asking not really because I think there’s an issue with what you’re doing, but for people who are thinking of joining some kind of a group, like, how do they know it’s not happening? It sounds like you just feel into it, and it’s probably not happening because of the nature of the work. I’m by that.

[01:01:27] Lynne: I guess it is self-selective because they’re people who are members of my community, and we do a lot of intention experiments like we’ve been doing several for healing Israel and Gaza at the moment. And that’s a lot of my work. As I said, I’ve been working on healing polarized communities. And one of the really interesting things about an intention experiment as well as intention in a group is what happens to people who are polarized.

[01:01:58] And I saw this back in 2011. So these are people who are joining, not the targets of the intention, but the people who are actually doing the intending. I think it was the 10th anniversary of 9/11. I was pretty sick of watching those buildings come down as we do every year on September 11th. So this was the 10th anniversary, and I thought, maybe we should do something different.

[01:02:25] So I decided to do an intention to try to lower violence in the two southern provinces of Afghanistan because the war was raging there and there was a lot of violence. So I thought, I’ll invite my Western audience, but I also reached out to a guy called Dr. Salah Al-Rashed, who is the Deepak of the Middle East.

[01:02:49] And he’s hosted me for talks numerous times, and workshops. So I said, Salah, can you bring your following as well to this intention? And we did it in Arabic and English, and we had both sides come together. And there was some great data outcome. We got data eventually from NATO, from a German general who was part of the combined forces there, and it was pretty significant, the drop in violence– that was very interesting– compared to the rest of the provinces.

[01:03:25] But the more interesting thing, as far as I was concerned, was what was happening between the Arabs and the Americans. They were messengering back and forth on my instant messenger, with the broadcasts, and also on my Facebook page. And they were sending love to each other, and forgiving each other. They were befriending each other. I went, wow. 

[01:03:48] So we had another opportunity, which is a bit germane to what’s going on in the world right now. So nearly 10 years later, I had an opportunity to do an intention using special equipment where we could put cameras into eight conference rooms in eight different Arab cities. And the ninth camera was put in an audience of Israeli Jews. So I had Arabs and Jews–

[01:04:17] Dave: Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:17] Lynne: On this intention. And we were going to do an intention to lower violence in Jerusalem, which was suffering from a lot of violence at the time. Now, I had to broker this whole arrangement because the Jews didn’t want to talk to the Arabs. Arabs didn’t want to talk to the Jews. They’ve both been brought up to hate each other. 

[01:04:35] So I did this, and it was special equipment so that I could broadcast all of them, but then afterward, call the different places where the cameras were, so I could call on the people who were in Jordan, and then the people in Saudi Arabia, and the people who were Jews in Israel, and have them all say, okay, what happened? How do you feel? What’s going on with you? So we did our intention, and then I started calling on people, and it was miraculous.

[01:05:06] Dave: You guys enjoying this? This so interesting. 

[01:05:07] Lynne: They started sending love to each other. They started saying, your God is my God, and so forth. It was just incredible. And this was so astonishing for me. And the whole experiment went very viral all through Jerusalem, Israel, and also in many places in the Middle East. Even MPs were talking about it, members of the government in Kuwait. 

[01:05:32] Here’s why. I started trying to figure out what goes on. Why do we have this situation? And it all has to do with the vagus nerve, I found, when doing some research and looking at the work of, Dacher Keltner, a psychologist at the University of California at Berkeley. 

[01:05:52] He found, in one study, that when people focus on an altruistic activity, such as looking at starving children, they are more likely to identify with people who are not like them. It makes the heart leap across the fence because the vagus nerve, as you I’m sure know, has lots of functions, like activating sympathetic nervous system, the fight-or-flight mechanism. But another activity of it is the connection, feeling safe aspect. 

[01:06:24] Dave: Yes. 

[01:06:25] Lynne: When we feel that, when we have a release of oxytocin, we are far more likely to trust people and trust the other. And that was part of what was going on with this altruistic activity for lowering violence. So I saw it again and again, and I even did an experiment right before the inauguration of Joe Biden to try to keep violence down in Washington. And I invited Republicans and Democrats. And again, it was a love fest.

[01:06:57] So for me, it’s almost like the target is immaterial now. What’s more important is what goes on in people when they come together as a group for an altruistic intention. And I’ve seen that with my participants. As I said, I surveyed them, and I’ve surveyed them for years now. And about 40% report that they are healed in some way or a condition improved, a health condition improved.

[01:07:29] They also report, about half, they are more in love with everyone they come in contact with. Something happens to people. They’re also making up with their relationships. They’re getting along better with their co-workers. Their father, who disowned them, suddenly calls. We have so many stories like that, where their lives become more peaceful too. So for me, it’s not the target. It’s the reaction in the part of the participants that’s the real experiment.

[01:08:05] Dave: There’s something about creating a feeling of safety that allows people to enter these altered states. And that’s something that I’ve become more proficient at over time, is intentionally creating a feeling of safety when I’m around someone who, particularly if it’s in a healing kind of environment, just to, what you would call holding space.

[01:08:26] But there are very specific steps you can take that may be specific to masculine versus feminine energy. I don’t know. But you can create a thing where people are like, wow, I just feel safe. And then like, oh, I guess I cannot have the cramp or whatever the heck their body was doing to make themselves think they were safe.

[01:08:43] And it’s pretty odd, but it’s repeatable. And so I think there’s a lot of things that we’re learning in the world of healing. And if you have eight people working, not just to create a feeling that someone’s caring for you, that you’re safe, but also that you’re changing, I think 

[01:08:59] it can be really powerful.

[01:09:00] So if you’re listening and you’re skeptical, we have a one of the masters of this kind of work on the podcast who’s telling you there’s some real data behind it. But I have two questions for you. One of them is, and I know that it’s actually repellent to say this for people from marketing my last book, but I’m going to say it anyway.

[01:09:21] I’m lazy. And what that means is that if I can get into a state in one minute instead of 20 minutes, I’m going to choose the one-minute path because it’s more efficient, and our bodies are biologically wired to save energy, which gives us more time to be with our kids or do stuff we want to do.

[01:09:38] So yes, I do want it all, which is a function of being lazy. I’m also an entrepreneur because I’m lazy. Oh, I work really hard just because I can have more leverage. So I want leverage on my quantum practices when I’m working with intention. So I have a variety, I just picked these out of my desk drawers while I was sitting here, of technologies that have quantum claims, and I want to know if you’ve experimented with any of these, or you think there’s any validity to the idea that maybe I could strengthen my quantum field. 

[01:10:05] I’ve got one of my favorite things, the Leela Quantum. This is their pendant, but I have their energy squares that I actually really like. I think they’re very noticeable. Got the Analemma thing that makes quantum and actually otherwise charge water. So this is a wand, if I can open it up. I don’t even have it. This is a wand you stir your water with. This is just the wrapper for it. 

[01:10:25] We’ve got the Resonance Academy, the ARK crystal, a very expensive quantum entangled crystal, entangled with someone who’s special to me and all that. And we have the Qi-Shield, which actually does generate Qi. It’s a copper coil, and there’s some liquid. They don’t tell you what it is, but I could guess. 

[01:10:43] So now that I have talked about all these, and I have resonated with them and become one with their quantum chi. Okay, only rolling my eyes a little bit. These are the ones that I’ve found have a noticeable difference. If I’m doing these things and then I go and I do a quantum healing or I was to enter a group of eight and we were to do this stuff, am I going to be better off? Will I get there faster? Will I go deeper? Or do they just all have a really good placebo effect? 

[01:11:10] Lynne: Some have a placebo effect. Some may have some sort of effect. Certainly, there is some data, and I’d be a very, very wealthy woman if I could verify everything that gets sent to me. And we get loads of those–

[01:11:32] Dave: Yeah. I have a drawer full of stuff that I don’t think works. 

[01:11:34] Lynne: And there’s a load of them that don’t work. There are some that seem to have some promise. There are certainly some pieces of equipment that are really interesting, and that may have an effect. Here’s what I know. As I said, Dave, from the very beginning, I’ve watched thousands of people heal their lives in 10 minutes.

[01:12:01] There’s a woman I know called Lisa, another Lisa, who had a genetic liver disease, enlarged liver and spleen, candidate for a liver replacement. Goes to a Power of 8 group. First time. And it’s not even one of mine. It’s one that this little healing sanctuary talked to us about, and they run this little Power of 8 group session every week.

[01:12:28] Goes into it, feels something amazing going on inside her body, has some sort of sense she’s healed, and puts off going to the doctor. Finally does. He goes through a scan with her and says, your liver’s normal. All that scarring’s gone. All of your spleen is normal. Now, I’ve seen stuff like that tons and tons of times, loads of things. 

[01:12:57] I can’t think of anything that works as fast as that. It was 10 minutes. That’s it. So when we talk about upgrades, I’ve mentioned there are group effects. There’s intention itself. We know it works. There’s altruism. There’s a sense of oneness. There’s a big secret sauce going on in groups, but I think it comes and boils down to a simple something, which is we were made to be connected. We don’t get connected. When we do, and we got that group, that tribe, miracles happen.

[01:13:35] Dave: I love what you’re saying there. And I’ve definitely experienced these types of things. It’s funny. Even talking about quantum things like this, people are saying, oh, Dave, you promote things. How dare you? So recent article, I forget. Some magazine was doing a hit piece on one of the companies that has pretty profound science I’ve worked with. The company is also backed by entrepreneur Dave Asprey who promotes quantum healing boxes. 

[01:14:08] Yeah, the guy who started the biohacking movement and built a 100-million-dollar a year company that put collagen and grass-fed butter. No. Whatever they can use to discredit you, they will use the fact you talk about this stuff to discredit you. And I’m like, yeah, I guess I’m that guy, so you put that on my–

[01:14:29] Lynne: Skeptics will discredit anything. I bet you have a Wikipedia page like I do. Mine, I don’t recognize it. I don’t recognize myself on there.

[01:14:40] Dave: It actually doesn’t even know what year I’m born or what month. Wikipedia is absolutely just a propaganda factor at this point. It’s sad. It had promise 10 years ago, but at this point, you have ChatGPT. Why would you ever look at Wikipedia again? It’s a cobweb. It’s the AOL of encyclopedias is what Wikipedia is. It’s just less accurate.

[01:15:02] Lynne: I love that. I love that. Absolutely.

[01:15:06] Dave: It’s funny. I’m just saying. Talking to all these devices, it actually reduces my credibility in the scientific community, but I don’t care. If you don’t like my science, then just don’t read my books. Don’t.

[01:15:16] Lynne: But also, as you said, it’s not every piece of equipment. Some of them do have a lot of promise. And the point is, if we’re not open-minded about any of this, we will never advance. This is the problem with science. You must be a scientific explorer, and that includes products like this. Because some of them do have great promise, and others are completely worthless. But unless they are tested, unless they do have science behind them, and unless we’re willing to be open-minded to say, hey, this is a new idea, let’s try it, then we will never advance.

[01:15:58] Dave: 100%. You have to be curious, willing to fail. And I’m only talking about stuff with clinical studies where I can also notice something, otherwise there’s all sorts of stuff. So the curiosity is important. And if you’re afraid to be curious about things, you’ve been programmed. You have trauma. You should go do some EMDR or something on your dogmatism.

[01:16:19] And here’s my final question. I talked about what would happen if there was 80 million people focusing on something. Have you heard about how the Simpsons magically predict the future? Have you seen this? Hundreds of cases of the most bizarre things that should never ever happen, and then you find out they happen five, or 10, or 15 years later. Why do you think that is? I have a theory, but I want to hear yours.

[01:16:44] Lynne: I have no idea, but didn’t they predict Donald Trump was going to be president?

[01:16:50] Dave: Oh yeah. 

[01:16:51] Lynne: That’s just one of many, but yeah.

[01:16:53] Dave: They predicted Twin Towers falling down. They predicted Donald Trump. They predicted Greta Thunberg, whatever her name is, the one who likes to say, how dare you? I don’t know what to do, but how dare you? That one instead of doing something like other kids her age are. And so all these things, I’m like, okay, how did they know? 

[01:17:13] My theory has to do with your work actually. It’s actually more than 80 million people. It’s probably more like 500 million people look at a cartoon where they have to fill in the gaps and imagine it as being real. How much intention is on those stories that The Simpsons tell? So are they predicting the future? Are they creating the future by putting a whole hell of a lot of intention into it?

[01:17:38] Lynne: Dave, that’s such a great question. Are they creating it, or are they predicting it? Now, get this too. As you know, because you’re a student of quantum stuff, there’s no such thing as time. All quantum physicists worth their degrees will say– Carlo Rovelli, the big Italian physicist– no such thing as time.

[01:18:06] And I’ve seen that too, because some of my work is about retro intention and intention in the future, in the big future. So we do a lot of time travel with intention too. And I’ve seen it really work. Also, we have some of our amazing extended human capacity, not just the capacity for intention, but also precognition. 

[01:18:33] A great example of that, Dr. Rupert Sheldrake , the British biologist, after 9/11, he put an ad in the Village Voice to say, did you have a dream about this? If so, write me. Had hundreds, if not thousands, of letters of people who had very, very specific dreams of planes going into those buildings, or some toll buildings. Them being in the cockpit. Them being as a passenger, or them just being a witness. 

[01:19:03] We have an amazing ability to forecast. So maybe people are collectively watching this and forecasting or creating it. Maybe by looking at this, we are creating it. And thinking about it, we are creating it. It’s a real fascinating thought experiment. I don’t have an answer to, but certainly– or maybe the creators of The Simpsons are brilliant predictors, or maybe they’re brilliant intenders.

[01:19:39] Dave: It’s a tough one. I’ve been thinking about this for years. I’m pretty sure that they’re doing a good job at least of planting a seed, and when enough people focus on it, it becomes both of those simultaneously, both predicting and creating. Because the quantum is non-dual as well, which is weird.

[01:20:01] And it seems like a lot of artists, though, do read something in the field too. Like Californication, the Red Hot Chili Peppers song, if you listen, read the lyrics, they’re all so predictive of the future. And they wrote it a long time ago, and they’re like, what is going on here? I don’t know what’s going on here, but I’m just fascinated by the whole thing. And I figured you might have some thoughts on it because– 

[01:20:22] Lynne: let’s just think about the field. So the field is created. When we talk about the field, it’s created by, as I said, the subatomic dance of subatomic particles. They send energy back and forth, and in that moment of trade, they create what’s called a virtual particle. Therefore, far less than the blink of an eye. But because of all the little tennis games of all of the subatomic particles and everything in the world, this becomes this extraordinary field.

[01:20:56] So it’s out there. An important thing to understand about quantum waves is that they imprint information. When they bump into each other, they take on each other’s information So we talked about the field being a medium in which we’re all connected, but it’s also a medium of all information, essentially, a scientist.

[01:21:21] So perhaps these artists are tapping into the field. They’re tapping into information, even future information. So that could be it too. We’ve got one vast information store. If we were to put the Library of Congress on quantum waves, all of it, that’s every book in English, would fit on a sugar cube.

[01:21:48] Dave: Mm-hmm.

[01:21:48] Lynne: That’s how much information that field out there can hold. That’s just one wave. There’s gazillions of them. 

[01:21:56] Dave: And if we put Wikipedia on there, it would actually weigh less because there’s no actual information on Wikipedia.

[01:22:04] Lynne: It would probably be. Yeah, it would be one of those things that’s weightless. Absolutely.

[01:22:08] Dave: It would turn from sugar into genetically modified soybean oil with a sticker that said it was good for you.

[01:22:17] Lynne: I love it. I love it. I love it.

[01:22:22] Dave: Your work is fascinating, and you’ve consistently applied real science to one of the hardest things to study and the thing that always is triggering for certain people in certain places. So thank you for your amazing books, and your work in the world, and your curiosity. Truly appreciate you. And I can’t wait to see you again in person at the next TLC meeting.

[01:22:46] Lynne: I look forward to it, Dave. Thanks so much.

[01:22:50] Dave: People can go to lynnmctaggart.com to find out more about you. Is that the best place?

[01:22:55] Lynne: Yeah, that’s it.

[01:22:56] Dave: Okay. Good deal. All right. See you soon.

[01:22:58] Lynne: See you.