Dave: Hey it’s Dave Asprey of Bulletproof radio. Today’s cool fact of the day is women are subconsciously more charming when they are ovulating. In fact and this is documented, strippers who are ovulating earn twice as much money as strippers who are either menstruating or are on birth control pills. So if you have a big interview or big date coming up, you might want to try and schedule it when you are ovulating. This is actually an unfair advantage that only women can have and it’s just not fair. Anyhow it’s also shown in a different study that your intelligence goes up if you are below average intelligence when you are ovulating and it goes down if you are above average intelligence when you are ovulating. So go figure.
Today’s guest on the show is none other than Jordan Harbinger who is a co-founder of a really popular website called the art of charm and their website funny enough is theartofcharm.com and it‘s interesting because Jordan you might consider to be part of this pick up artist community which is not something that made him smile when I said that but there is this thing and if you are not familiar with this, there is a group of guys historically who have kind of hacks relationships to go out and basically, I’d say take advantage of women.
There’s also a group of guys one that I actually respect who are like all right, let’s teach guys how to go out there and actually like be gentlemen and how to properly interact with women because honestly some of us like me when I was a teenager and in college didn’t have a freaking clue. So that’s why I’m having Jordan on because Jordan you have definitely had some positive impact on multiple people’s lives people I know, who are like I didn’t understand what I was doing and I just needed to understand the ropes. So welcome to the show.
Jordan: Thanks I appreciate; I scheduled this while I was ovulating so hopefully my intelligence goes up.
Dave: Nice, actually me too, also scheduled this when you were wearing some kind of dorky looking Stevie Wonder glasses, what’s up with that?
Jordan: This is … it’s not just my Ray Charles costume, but I got this ideas from you obviously. You know we are recording late at night, it’s 9.30 something like that, it’s actually past that and I thought, you know what if you are going to wear your blue blockers, I’m going to wear my blue blockers, the problem is yours look much better than mine. Mine are kind of like the Jackie Oness’s version of the blue blockers and I’m also blocking some blue with this amber colored scotch; bulletproof scotch.
Dave: There you go and better than beer. Now I’m going to show people who are watching on video what it actually looks like when I work in my office. I’m, going to turn off the lights that I’m using for the video … and the other one … damn … it just turned red and I don’t know really wear my glasses at night, I just have red lights which help with collagens synthesis. They make my skin look youthful. But more importantly you do that and it tells your body it’s night time even more so than just not having red light. So this is something stiff folks and I talked about on that podcast earlier and it’s actually remarkable what it does for you but if I’m recording I’m going to turn the lights so you guys can see me but that’s kind of a story. So now you have seen both of us in our blue blockers.
Jordan: Excellent, yeah and I figure I’ve got to sleep after this so lights do it. I’m not really hiding much here, so people have seen me in a lot of other videos and this show is really popular in iTunes so people know a lot of stuff about me and now they get to see me look like a dork with a shiny forehead and some big goggles.
Dave: Nice, and you got the nice headphones on … totally cool. For people driving you are going “what are these guys is talking about.” Bottom line is we are cool.
Jordan: Even if we do say so ourselves
Dave: Yeah. Jordan you have been kidnapped twice.
Dave: What’s up with that and what did you learn from it.
Jordan: That’s interesting because the first time I got kidnapped I was twenty years old and what I learnt from it was don’t take everything at face value because what happened was and I’ve talked about this on my show in details so I’ll give you guys a short version of course. What happened was I was twenty, I got into a cab in Mexico turned out to be a guy who decided to take me the ghetto of whatever and I trusted my gut which is probably the bigger lesson and didn’t let him get out of the cab when I was at what people who investigate homicides typically call the secondary location which is where the person takes you, the proverbial place where no one can hear you scream. And I didn’t let him get out of the cab.
We struggled before we fully got there and then I was able to escape. Then the second time, I was able to use some of the same stuff that we teach at art of charm, rapport building skill and basically getting people to like and trust you provide an opportunity, create an opportunity in which me and my friend were able to escape. This was in Serbia and we taken by some state security officers which are basically just like corrupt militia guys from Bosnia that are now given immunity inside the state of Serbia. And they were totally fried on some sort of substance.
Dave: I have to double down on that. This is something I don’t think I have talked about too much; this stuff didn’t always come naturally to me. In fact I had symptoms of like asperger syndrome and my brain didn’t work very well. So when I realized it was important to understand like how to interact with others, I decided I would study it, but there wasn’t the art of charm. So I used to go to this Stanford barn which is on the Stanford Campus and it’s like this meeting place. So during thedot.com boom every entrepreneur wanted to meet every other entrepreneur.
So I go there like every Thursday night, and just like I’m sure I was like stiff as a board and had no clue what I was doing and I would just force myself to network with all these entrepreneurs until I learnt the game, until I became good at it, until I developed intuition and probably more normal social skills. But it took like two years of like probably three Thursdays a month going and practicing. And it would have been really cool if there was like some way to [ATFM 00:06:59] and take a course because I totally would have Signed up for it.
Jordan: In fact most of our clients are in this because they want to get a girlfriend and get married and have kids. Very few guys sign up because they just want to play the field and a lot of the guys that try to do that we end up screening out. Because I don’t really want somebody here if they are just like “I need to get phone numbers and get women to like me.” That’s such a small minded goal and it’s really … if you don’t kind of get it then I don’t want you here in the same boot camp as a guy from the Mossad and special forces, army rangers, green berets and special air service guys. Because they are going to be like “boot camp was great except for this yahoo in the corner who everybody wanted to strangle.” So we do screen our clients pretty well.
The boot camp is residential so it’s not like you can go back to your hotel room at night and get away from somebody that’s annoying you. You are with the person 24/6, during a six [inaudible 00:07:49] program so like if you get one guy in there, the whole experience is ruined for everybody so it’s key. And it really is so much broader than the … we have tones of women listening to the show so it’s very important to me that women go “every guy needs the art of charm” not “eww this is creepy and weird and I don’t … this is manipulative.” We don’t want that wrap at all because it couldn’t be further from the truth.
Dave: Honestly I can say a lot of guys, clients I have worked with and just friends, some of them just don’t have a clue about what to do to form a good relationship and it’s not really the pickup, like is authenticity integrity. So I actually admire what you guys do from that perspective, I don’t have any issue with it. I would not call myself a fan of the general PUA. What’s the ratio of girls you hit on to get a number at the bar tonight. That kind of stuff is not what we are talking about, and it’s actually kind of creepy just like you are saying so.
Jordan: Super creepy
Dave: Draw a big line in the sand there because it’s fascinating, I’m a big fan of Neal Straus’s writing about that because it’s just too weird to not read, but it’s not the life that I would recommend for people on a kick ass.
Jordan: I agree, there is a lot overlap in the audience though. Because a lot of people who, they go “Oh, I want to learn to be really good with people just like I want to learn to be really fit and really healthy” and they go “Oh, there is this way to learn to be better with people, and I’m going to learn this and it just depends like if you find the art of charm first you are like oh great, if you find the art of charm after you find some of the pickup artist stuff you are like “Oh my Gosh, this is what I wanted all along,” but if you go far down that pick up artist rabbit hole, you come out weirder than you were when you went in by a factor of about a thousand.
So you got to be really careful because it’s … you have talked about this on your show and I have seen you write about this; toxic information going into your brain is just like drinking poison. You might as well suck down rubbing alcohol if you are going to start watching videos of guys meeting girls dressed in Speedos wearing roller blades and stuff, that’s bad for you. You might think it’s entertainment in the beginning
Dave: Roller blades and Speedos, what do you watch?
Jordan: Amen, I live in freaking San Francisco; I drove through the Castro on the way here. That’s actually guys picking up dudes in roller blades and Speedos but I just morphed the example of the conversation but it’s very true. That stuff can really poison your brain, because then you don’t really know what to believe. It’s like getting bad health or bad fitness advice. You listen to enough people and you go “wait a minute, I’m supposed to eat 18 small meals a day because I heard that in 18 different, 25 different places it must be true.” And then you get frustrated and you give up on the whole thing and you go eat a pizza.
Dave: Yeah, getting advice that doesn’t work just makes you sort of throw your hands up and it actually sucks your will power. A lot of the bulletproof diet that’s coming out is about will power. And it just drives me nuts when bad advice just sucks all that energy out of someone that they could use for almost anything. It’s kind of funny that you mentioned kidnapping, or maybe I mentioned it to start and the we got on the Neal Straus because one of the things in his other book emergency I did and urban escape and evasion course
Jordan: I did that too
Dave: Did you, nice. It was amazing you get locked in a trunk and learn what to do when you are unlawfully detained in Serbia or not but it is empowering to go like oh yeah I know handle that. It was kind of cool.
Jordan: It’s funny because I had a another art of charm student, he learnt how to pick handcuffs because that was one of the things we learnt in that course, and you get really darn good at picking handcuffs like behind your back while they are on you, making the lock pick out of a hairpin. Well this guy and I’ll keep this story short, I swear to God he always did lock picks with them during the class and we are like “Listen Batman, you can’t bring your lock picks up at the bar,” and he’s like “Okay fine.”
So we made him leave them at home one day and the last day of our field work where we go out during the day and at nights to sort of practice this stuff. And of course what does he do? He finds a pair of pink furry handcuffs, handcuffs himself to a girl and goes “All right, where’s the key?” Turns out they didn’t belong to any one, so the one day he doesn’t bring his lock picks for like the last decade is the one day where he handcuffs himself to like a 19 year old Asian girl who is about five feet tall inside of a bar.
Bear in mind, this guy is like 45, so he’s like not stocked about it, and they are like “Well we can’t call the cops because this looks weird” and so finally somebody brings a handcuff key, one of the art of charm guys had a handcuff key back at headquarters, for one of my pairs of handcuffs that I was practicing on for this course, brings it over and unlocks it but yeah … you just never know when you are going to need to pick a pair of handcuffs.
Dave: It’s a funny scale and it’s shocking how easy it is.
Jordan: Yeah, it makes me scared for cops
Dave: One of my drawers over here, I have the pair that I practiced on after I finished that course and it’s probably in the back of the drawer somewhere but I haven’t done it in like three years. But it’s a neat little party trick.
Jordan: Yeah, especially when you can build, you take a hair pin and you make the pick with the handcuffs and the pin while you are handcuffed. And before people … once you get really good at it, it’s like before you are finished explaining what you are going to do, you are like “And, here is a pair of handcuffs”
Dave: Yeah, cops should definitely watch out for that.
Jordan: Yeah, no kidding. I bet they don’t like that trick though.
Dave: Yeah, I hear that if you hand them their handcuffs that you usually get to taste their night stick, so it’s just not a good plan
Jordan: Don’t taze me bro
Dave: Don’t do things that you’re handcuffed, it’s just easier. So we talked about getting kidnapped and we talked about some of the other cool stuff that you have done, what made you like who you are today, it’s kind of like a weird job he’s got there [crosstalk 00:13:33]
Jordan: Yeah, it is. How it started, well I went to law school and I had a summer internship at a law firm in New York and the guy who hired me was never in the office, he was always out and about. This guy was from Brooklyn and he had a tan, what’s wrong with this picture, right. So he was rumored to make more money than everyone else as well, and one of the things that I finally, he caught up with me and was like, or rather I caught up with him he said “Let’s go get coffee.” And I think HR kind of like made him do it because he was “my mentor” which on Wall Street is like somebody required to pay attention to you once every three months for five minutes.
So he said “Ask me anything” and I’m pretty sure he wanted me to ask him stuff about being a lawyer and real estate finance and blah blah blah, but what I asked him instead was “how comes everyone else says you make more money than everyone else but you are never in the office. If it’s all about billable hours, how do you make money because you are never here? Do you just work from home and why?” and he reeled for one second and then said “Actually I work from home. You see my stuff coming in on the blackberry when people still used those but really what I’m doing is more valuable than what the other technical lawyers are doing.”
Because I noticed the other partners were there at like 1.00 in the morning on a Sunday, I’d walk in to get like a Coke just drunk because we had a party I’m like no one is going to be here and sure enough all the partners are in there cranking away and I thought, what’s going on here. They are closing deals, wrapping things up, well I told him that and he goes “Listen, technical skills are great, they are valuable, those guys job at the highest level of technical skill they can bill probably a thousand buck an hour maybe even close to that. Billing, going through documents, doing a deal for an investment banker, but at the end of the day their billable hours won’t make them valuable.
For me I’m bringing in business to the firm, so I get a commission on that and I can bill my time as a partner but I can bill the time that I’m selling the deal to the firm itself, not to the client. So the firm literally pays him a bonus plus his normal salary plus his billable hours just for going out and making nice with tones of bankers and people that bring deals.
So I thought, “Wait a minute, this changed the way I look at work because what this means is you can, not only at the bottom level does it matter who you know because that’s how I got the job in the first place but at the highest levels of this business. What you are telling me is technical skills becomes even less valuable as I go up the ladder and people skills become even more valuable.”
So I sort of grafted in my head and I’m like “Okay, in the early stages technical skills don’t matter because you are useless, you’re an overpaid secretary as a lower associate. Then like five years in its all about your technical skills because you’re really, really useful as a lawyer but you’re still kind of cheap enough to the firm and they can make a ton of cash on you. And then as you become a partner your technical skills are at their peak but you’re really kind of flat lined in terms of the money you make unless you are bringing in business to the firm.”
But most people can’t do that because they’re weirdoes that have spent their entire decade in an office filing briefs so the guy who’s out golfing, doing jujitsu, going on charity cruises that’s what this guy was literally doing. I remember he had a knee brace once and I was like “What happened?” and he’s like “Ah, jujitsu with a bunch of guys from Morgan Stanley on the weekends and stuff.” And I’m thinking you’re going out and living and then you come back and go “Oh yeah, I need a million dollar check for bringing in Bear Strands biggest real estate dealer of the decade to our law firm.”
Then I thought “Okay, I’m going to work on my networking skills, I’m going to work on my people skills because I don’t want to be competing against all these guys who don’t care about their lives and are willing to just throw it all away for billable hours and technical prowess especially because people skills seemed like more fun and at the end of the day they’re more lucrative.
And you know what happened a few months later, well a year and a few months later, the firm went under because it was heavily leveraging in real estate finance; he walked into another firm and he got a job as a partner and I know that because that’s Sirius XM was in the same building as this other firm and I was broadcasting professionally by then doing The Art of Charm by Satellite radio.
And so it was amazing because I was like “Oh my gosh, this guy walked out of there everybody else was in early retirement and he walked in as a partner to another firm because he had a client book and a ton of friends.” And that’s what made me start The Art of Charm as a podcast in law school and later as a satellite radio show and now of course again as a podcast.
There’s a lot of guys out there and girls that are bursting their tail learning how to be the best CPA Around, learning how to be the greatest architect, and they’re going “I graduated from a great school, how come I can’t get a job?” and then some yahoo like me walks into the office and gets a job because I know the other guys college roommate and boom my resume goes into a different pile and becomes a formality.
Dave: You know that sounds like the long version of “It’s not what you know, it’s who you know” and if there’s something to be said for that and you got to know the basic whats. My career had some of that too. I’ve had one mentor early on when I worked at Threecom, like one of the now dead networking companies that got bought by someone …
Jordan: Oh my God, I remember Threecom.
Dave: Yeah. I forgot who bought them. But like they actually were the company that brought the palm pilot, the first like real mobile device out to market. And it was, it was this time where I’m like “What is this guy doing in IT and frankly why do the other IT guys not like him?” And it was because he didn’t spend any time in IT, he was doing the same thing and there’s people who just know how to do this and so I like followed him around for a year and learnt more about how that side of the business happened and that’s why I ended up working as a project manager and a marketing person in Silicon Valley versus like being a hardcore network engineering geek which I think would have been much less satisfying.
Jordan: Absolutely. It’s funny you should bring up that specific example because honestly people on the other side of the fence who either don’t like the secret game being played or don’t know about the secret game … If you’re sitting there and you’re going “I don’t need to network when I’m what I’m doing because blah blah blah”
You just don’t know there’s a secret game being played around you and if you don’t like it it’s because you were last picked for kickball most likely. Because a lot of people go “Yeah, it’s all about who you know it’s not what you know, that’s a bunch of BS and I hate that.” And you know what I say “Thank goodness it’s all about who you know because now I don’t have to be a guy who works 85 hours a week grinding away at a technical skill”
Because if you’re in a job that requires … even a billable hour centric job like a lawyer, if you have the people skills, people go “Ah, you are now officially the exception to the billable hours rule because you’re the only guy who can sell the firm” And for your example I met with a couple of my friends in Silicon Valley here, I live in San Francisco, they are BizDev guys, Business Development and basically these guys are really, really good networkers and front men that work in an office full of genius coders that can create amazing products but can’t even look anyone in the eye even to shake their hands.
And these guys are the lifeblood of the company because imagine a company like dropbox making an amazing product and then somebody goes “Well what is your product doing?” They’re like “Well it allows us to cloud store blah blah blah” and everyone is like, “What?” and the BizDev guy goes, “Imagine your hard drive is in space and you’ve unlimited storage and you just drag things to it and anytime you have an internet connection you use it just like its connected to your computer and other people can use the same hard drives. So you can use my music and I can use my music just like we are in the same room.”
And they go, “Oh my God, I totally need that for all the documents that we use at Google. How much is it?” And you’re like, “A billion dollars.” And they’re like, “Great that will save us 1.4 billion dollars. I’ll take it.” And guys like that they network and they do these things all the time that one of the BizDev guys that I interviewed for The Art of Charm he doubled his salary in two years because he got raises every freaking quarter because he just kept bringing in money, eventually they refused to pay him more and he left and started another company and started at that pay, started another company and other people and he started higher than that doubled salary and he continues to double his salary because even the VCs that invest in his company are like “Ugh, fine. We’ll pay you more because you’re going to leave and we can’t afford that.”
Dave: And it’s funny for people who are running companies listening to the show and there are several that I know of but I think they all already know that you never stop paying the guys who produce the most. In fact the reason that [Perez 00:22:00] system, Ross Perez company was formed was because he did that at IBM. He like made his annual quota in a month, he’s like “Keep paying me.” And they’re like “No” and he’s like “There’s the door. See you.” Started a competing company that’s been harassing them for thirty years now, so yeah don’t feed the enemy that way; pay your good people.
Jordan: Yeah, you have to and confidence is a skill, a lot of people are going “Great, so I don’t have people skills. I wasn’t born with this. Thanks a lot for rubbing it in my face.” And what we do at AoC, The Art of Charm, our job is to teach emotional intelligence and “People skills” not just networking, not just dating but people skills.
Emotional intelligence in a way that anybody can learn and master, so you can come in and say “I just got divorced and I’ve otherwise been coding python whatever in a cubicle for a decade. What, I mean what do I do?” and we can come in and say “Okay, let’s fix your non-verbal communication, your body language, lets teach you how to read it in others, lets teach you proper eye contact, [inaudible 00:23:01] personality and I don’t just mean really basic stuff, we can teach that but some of the guys that come in like the special forces guys, those are commanding presences.
They’re here because they want to get, they want to be able to humanize themselves to an enemy, really get to people to like and trust them, lead people quite possibly to their death by being charismatic enough to generate a strong connection. That’s the same skill set tuned to eleven instead of four.
Dave: So one of the things that intrigues me here is you talk about training confidence or building confidence, I mean is confidence a learned skill at all or is it something that’s an integral part of you?
Jordan: No. that’s a great question and that’s the thing, nobody is born with it and sometimes people will go “Well that’s not true because I know young people that, my brother was always confident growing up and now he still is.” Well here’s the thing, some people into environments or create environments around them at younger ages where confidence makes sense and so we take our mindsets largely from, of course ourselves but also external circumstances.
So if you’re young and you love reading science fiction and you don’t like going outside to play because you are smaller than the other kids, you’re going to grow up feeling like “Wow, social interaction is kind of painful because you got bullied, you don’t like it, being alone makes you feel safe that type of thing. And then you get out into the working world where it matters who you know and you’re like “Oh, I don’t want to get to know new people all the time. I want to isolate and code by myself and plug in headphones and work in an office with a few people or work from home.” That’s because of, of course there’s some genetics aspects to this, but most of it is environment.
Now on the other hand you might have had a brother who was half a foot taller than you and weighed 50 pounds more and was really good at sports. I mean just pretty much everything he tried, he nailed it. He wasn’t that great in school but it didn’t matter because we don’t prize that as kids in America, we prize athletic prowess.
And so he became the coolest kid, everybody wanted to be his friend and so he started getting used to social interactions, parties, girls, attention from the opposite sex, dealing with authority in the way that only he knew how which was like “Whatever bro. I’m cool everywhere else. I don’t care if the third grade teacher thinks I’m a troublemaker.”
That guy turned out to be pretty darn confident because none of the pain of social interaction is associated, he doesn’t associate any of that stuff, right? Even though you grew up in the same house, you had vastly different feedback as a kid.
And that’s what creates those complexes because a little emotional wound or a little emotional seed as a young person grows into an entirely complex different set of beliefs as an adult and as a young person for that matter as well. And one of the things that we teach at The Art of Charm is your beliefs influence your actions which influence your result so you can’t just, it’s like the pickup guys, you can’t just pretend to be this cool guy and then suddenly everybody likes you and treats you differently because you don’t believe it you’ll self-sabotage, it won’t work.
But if we can change your mind sets to something that is working for you, your body language, all those non verbal’s will naturally fall into place and that will influence your result and then what will happens then is people start treating you differently and then you go “oh, maybe I am this competent charismatic guy.”
And after a lot of habits are engrained, a lot of things are internalized, people start treating you a lot differently and therefore you start living the part. You start acting the part and your mindset changes to where that identity level shift happens where you are like “Oh, I might be a core geek but I’m not insecure core geek” because you have addressed the problem- no one else sees you like that.
So you stop eventually when you let it go you stop seeing that way too and this isn’t like whoa whoa meditate on this grasshopper, there are signs that show our physiology changes the way people react to us as just as it changes our mindsets and of course our mind sets or what program our physiology. So we work on manually addressing mind sets physiology and of course giving you a lot of exposure to the ways that those things change.
And that’s what boot camp is, it’s just constant drills and exposure to stimuli that are probably pretty terrifying and video tape it and go over the tape with you and say this is what you look like when you are talking to a stranger. And this is how you sound when you are trying to convince somebody in something you don’t believe in. and we do that enough for six days and it will change your mindsets. Everybody breaks, it is not that we say in AOC but we should.
Dave: The power of feedback whether it is from a tech gadget or whether it is just from a system like that is amazing. I taught at the University of California for several nights a week for four five years. So I have got tones of time I’m just not nervous in front of a crowd because once you have given enough lectures you are like, I have given enough lectures with my zipper down that it just doesn’t matter.
Jordan: Right on purpose no less right? And that is how you lost your job at the university.
Dave: So I thought that it was good and I have done a lot of key note work and then I have trained with this guy Jerry Wiseman who wrote one of the major books about this, exactly the same process of what you are talking about but what you do on stage. And this guy is ruthless video camera and every little thing like do that, eye contact. And I thought I was pretty good but this guy completely up’d my game it took four days and it was just for what you do on stage.
Honestly some of the reason why I’m successful today is because I learned how to project my energy and I learned how to calm down. Although it was full of anxiety that I don’t have any more, but that feedback loop is what took me from pretty good to I’m pleased to how I present now, I honestly know that I’m going to go out there and deliver real value to the audience. So doing that rather than on stage one on one is actually, it’s kind of brilliant and it is something that I think if of value.
Jordan: Excellent, it is something that you really can’t get anywhere else and people go “I will just ask my sister about this” and it is like “listen man! you have your own life to ask your sister about this.” And that is the other thing, it’s really hard for people to get feedback that aren’t trained because you don’t know what you respond to. A lot of people go “what kinds of girls do you like?” “You know tall, pretty short ones that are curvy but thin.” We don’t really know but when we see it, we are like “oh yeah, that.”
And it is the same thing when you are talking about, training somebody for this, you know you can, a lot of people will give feedback. I just want somebody that is going to, well I give the dating example for that matter, I will ask my mum when I was younger how to meet girls and she was like just be really nice and compliment her cloths and tell her she looks pretty and stuff like that and you can imagine how well that worked with girls that didn’t like me already.
That was an epic fail and really embarrassing, she didn’t tell me because she wanted to point and laugh, this was my mum. She told me that because if she already liked me which, she was teaching me how to be a good boyfriend or a good husband, she wasn’t teaching me how to attract somebody; these mechanisms are starting to be uncovered even by modern science how these things work.
There is all these scientific studies that come out and our AOC alumni sent it to us all the time and the running joke is; and science gets one percent closer to knowing what we knew at boot camp few years ago or whatever. Because it is like oh if somebody walks this way and they look confident they are more attractive and people follow them as a leadership trade is attractive in the opposite sex and blah, blah, blah.
And it is like, “well yeah people who study AOC principles and concepts read body language and know stuff about … that is kind of a given and when we see it for ourselves it is like oh yeah, duh!” but if you try to mimic it and you don’t have the mindset right people go, “oh that guy is a tri-hard. What’s the difference between the triad and the naturally confident guy, they might look 99% the same.
There is some nuance there that is not matching and that is what we train you to develop because I can’t training you to fake it I can train you to develop it in yourself but I can’t just give it to you. If I could, you and I would be having this conversation on my jet.
Dave: Nice, it’s the whole authenticity and integrity thing and I believe that you can pick that up in other people. You have to be very skilled as a con artist to get around that basically you need to be a little bit of a sociopath.
Jordan: Yeah, if you are a sociopath that is one of the things that it will screen for at AOC if you are a sociopath, you pick you stuff on the first and second day and then we will go “oh wow, that’s not good”. Because if you are picking on stuff that quickly, chances are you shouldn’t be there in the first place because if you can perfectly mimic and fake everything there is probably a 99% chance that you are not going to use it. You are going to be up to no good because that is what sociopaths do.
I interviewed one on my show, he was a narcissistic psychopath. And he was, it was funny because he said things like “ah, I’m glad to be on your show.” And then I’d make a joke “that’s funny” and at the end of the show, on the recording I was like “so, those things that you were saying, you were saying that because you knew that is what I wanted to hear?” And he goes “listen, I’m not going to lie to you, I told you that I wouldn’t lie to you. Yes, I know that you want me to laugh at things, and I will laugh exactly when I’m supposed to laugh and I will tell you exactly what you want to hear because the result I want is I want you to share the show because you think that it is good and I want you to make, I want you to increase my image because it feeds my ego and that is the only thing that I care about. And I was like “damn, I need a shower, that is creepy.”
Dave: And scary.
Jordan: It was so scary and he was very open so props to him, he is literally a narcissistic psychopath that is just, he just tells people exactly what they want. And the thing is when you look at it you go man, he gets great results with this but it is, you can’t do it because once you or I try to tell somebody something we know is patently B.S just to get a certain type of result and we know that is going to hurt their feelings, this thing in the back of our mind kicks up and screws it all up for us because we don’t really want to do this because it really makes us feel crap.
But for him he just goes suckers, I’m getting exactly what I want, these people are so easy. He told us on the show humans are toys. So we have to really make sure that this is based on authenticity and integrity. Because if not you just run such a risk of doing things that are unhealthy for yourself because getting what you want is not always really good for you. And that sounds like a cliché but sometimes we need to work on ourselves and not to work on actually getting what we want. And that is sort of the premise of the whole show right?
Dave: Yeah some of the, using a cliché example but if you ask a farmer what he wants 100 years ago he’ll say “I want bigger horses.” Actually maybe not you would have to feed them, wouldn’t a tractor be more a little bit more interesting. But he didn’t think of that. But sometimes doing the work, chopping the wood, carrying the water-kind of thing teaches you a few things. There is value in work and there is also value in chain saws; so you have to find the balance.
Dave: I’m still really skeptical that you can really train confidence other than a feedback method like that. Are there exercises that you can share on the show for people to have better non-verbal communication more competence, throw out some knowledge here people would want to hear it.
Jordan: It absolutely, by the way it is absolutely a feedback system all we can do is give you the tools or run you through countless drills s that some of these stuff starts to get internalized start to build habits with you so that when you leave you start to work on it. We give a lot of support coaching after the fact as well because we know that you won’t come and do a week long problem and come out being like “ta-da I’m totally a new man.”
You will feel great and you will continue to more forward but you can’t learn confidence because of the process of, it’s really a process of unlearning a lot of crap that you have picked up over the last 35 years or however old you are when you come in. it is not just adding layers on your personality, it is a subtractive process, not an additive process. So that unfortunately take a lot longer and it is a lot more work and you have to be very open or it is just not going to happen if you want to come in and learn some tricks.
But I do have some cool drills that I can teach you in this format as well.
And so one of the things that people fail to realize is that first impressions are not made when you decide to make them, first impressions are made when you become a bleep on someone else’s radar. I will put in a dating context because I think it is easy and it is fun for a lot of the guys listening and for the girls as well because then they will identify.
Girls are sitting at the bar, three of them or four of them or whatever and they are having out and they are having fun and then a group of guys walks in. the girls turn around and see the guys walk in because women are often very aware of who is in their environment they have evolved that way, it is a safely concern as well as a sexual reproductive concern.
So the guys are hang out and the guys go “wow those girls are cute.” And then the guys go, the average guy says “alright lets grab drinks and hang out.” So the go and grab some drinks and they check out the girls again or whatever they go back to the table where they get it, they have been watching some basketball hanging out.
And then a couple of the girls go to the bathroom and then one or two of them stay at the bar and then by that time the guy has had a drink or two and he walks up to them and he says “hey, what are you guys drinking?” and then they are just “oh hey” and they maybe be polite but not very open or forthright about it or maybe they ever even rude about it and the guy goes “uh, women are really tough!”
Here is the problem, his first impression was not made when he decided that he had had enough liquid courage and he was going to sort of suck up and walk over there and make it happen. His first impression happened, when he walked into the bar, his hands in his pockets or slouched or whatever or even just a neutral first impression, not good or bad. But then he waited a while, the girls saw him looking over in their direction not doing anything, pretending to watch basketball, having a couple of drinks.
So by the time he came over there, they had already decided oh, we are less interested in this guy, he doesn’t really have the sort of boldness that maybe we are naturally going to be attracted to. Maybe they don’t realize this, this happened subconsciously but the first impression was made when he became a bleep on their radar, not when he decided alright, now is the time to make my move or whatever.
And that is a common misconception; your first impression is generally made right when you walk into a room because that is generally when you become a bleep on other people’s radar. And this works in business as well, any context when you are making a first impression which is generally every time you meet new people.
So one of the rules we give that I love to give is every time you walk through a doorway, for the next let’s say arbitrary next two weeks because what we are trying to do here is plant seeds for a habit. Straighten up your body, so straighten up your spin chin up, chest out, not exaggerated like you know “waah!” but shoulders back, none of that exactly but just upright confident posture. String pulling up over your head as well as down your spin, it is a really confident posture chin up, smile on your face is a really important part of this drill because it makes you open and engaging.
And so if you do that overtime you walk in through a doorway and I don’t mean when you are at work, I mean even in you won house, your bedroom door, your bathroom door, you front door. If you are doing this when no one else is looking it starts to change your physiology, it becomes a habit. And then next time when you walk into a Starbucks and you see someone that you are interested in or a business contact, you have already got your posture, your smile, you are already aligned properly, literally not chalk risen or whatever but you spine is literally, you look great you look confident you have got a smile on your face this is engaging.
You are no longer thinking about it because if you are trying to put on a great first impression by thinking about it you are going to be so non-present and not in the moment. You are going to have to micro process every aspect of your non-verbal communication which is one, impossible and two, certainly make it really weird to hold a conversation with somebody who is only thinking about that because they are on another planet and it is weird.
If you can master those non-verbal’s, just make them an internal process, not only are people going to start, you are going to start feeling different but people are going to start treating you differently and that is the beginning of the positive feedback loop that we are trying to create when it comes to non-verbal communication. If everybody started treating you as a confident, upright, positive guy, you are going to start to feel a lot differently than if you would if you walked in slouched, invisible, crumbled up into a little ball; physiology is so huge.
If you want to take that to another level after that, after you get that down, most people are terrible at eye contact and we video tape people at the art of charm at our boot camps and at our workshop. We actually say “How do you think your eye contact was during that interaction?” “It was great it was solid and it was spot on” we go “let’s go to the video tape, looking at the floor, looking at the hands, looking at something else, looking out the window.
And people are always consistently surprised at how they don’t smile, how they have terrible, terrible eye contact. And so when we can fix that, you start to be much more engaging, much more present and much more charismatic because that is really a combination of those factors. So the way that we work on this because a lot of people go “eye contact is really scary” and I agree, it can be very scary especially if you are used to looking at the floor when you walk and not looking people in the eye.
We say “alright after you have gotten the non-verbal think down, look everybody in the eye for the next couple of weeks just long enough to notice their eye color. And so what this does is it takes the pressure off of ‘look at everyone in the eye’. Because then you either do one of two things you do “this is really scary and you get weird anxiety that makes you o silly things or just lose focus because you are trying to make eye contact.
And or you do the death stare when people are trying to be too intense and they are trying to be intimidating and they look right at you and they are looking through you because they are trying to make good eye contact. That is also really creepy and really sort of incongruent for most people so it is bad, it is not good. It is probably even worse than having poor eye constant or up there.
Dave: I had to work on my death staring, I’m 6’4, I have always either been fat or muscular or some combination for the above. So you are already the biggest guy in the room and so everybody knows you could probably kick their ass by sitting on them. So that plus a death stare really wasn’t a very good combination for me. In fact it don’t think I have the death stare anymore but it is a legitimate thing and without feedback how would you ever know any of this, that is why this is fascinating to me.
But I want to know do you ever get people who are in permanent to semi permanent long term relationships who go art of charm; guys with girlfriend, guys with wives?
Jordan: Yeah all the time, actually around 30 plus percent of our clients are either in long term committed relationships and or married. I shouldn’t say and or married, one is a subtext of the other.
Dave: I was going to say, here in San Francisco and that poly thing, who knows.
Jordan: Yeah exactly, and so those guys will come through because a lot of people go, “oh I don’t need this, I’m married.” But there is this other subset of guys that go; “I need this because I’m married.” And my argument is, if you are married and you think you don’t need this, I’m thinking, so let me get this straight, since you are now in the most important relationship that you have been in, in your whole life now you don’t need relationship skills, because somebody signed a piece of paper?
It is let’s look at the divorce rate and see what the success rate is if this piece of paper holding you together. I think that you need it more when you are in a committed relationship because you communication matters more, the things that you are going to teach your kids matter more. It is not just about meeting girls on the internet or something like that, or bars and clubs, it is more of a communication skill set.
So actually around a third of our clients are in relationships, married, wanting to put the stuff into practice both in the relationships, and or their business. And that is really where this stuff shines is because if you are in any kind of role, sales roles or even selling yourself because people buy you, inside work and outside work. Somebody buys a product they buy you.
Dave: Even if you are a developer, you are still in sales whether you know it or not. Whether people take your proposal for writing a new API seriously or not, it’s sales and it is easier for some people because they have the skills or they grew up that way. That was something that was hard for me to learn the best tech rarely wins, the best tech that could be explained by someone coherently by someone that made other people with money want to do something always wins.
Jordan: Exactly, think about it look at something like Windows, but not to pick on that but Linux is just obviously so superior and yet why does everybody run Windows? At some point and I know some tech guys are going to email me “this is wrong.” But at some point, they were just better at selling that dish; they were just really good at getting that into people hand and look how easy this is. Linux is actually easier, it doesn’t break as much, there is a million things are obvious better about it but windows is obviously the dominant OS, even with Mac OS out there, it is dominant by far.
That is because somebody somewhere was able to … and part of the raise of Apple is because people go “look how awesome and this is to use?” and it is so intuitive that it sells itself. You have to do that about yourself, to yourself, to your product. I go to these conference all the time and people have awesome apps and I tell them, you know what, this is so great, it is too bad that you are going to fail because nobody is ever going to find out about this because you need 58 minutes to tell me how this thing works and it is totally going to be life changing.
This other guy has a thing that does what yours does, maybe 10% of it and it doesn’t even do that part as well but he told me in 30 seconds and so now I want it in 30%. If it takes you 30 seconds to close somebody to get that little app and it takes you 58 minutes to close somebody to get that big app, you are going to lose. It just not going to happen and people buy you, they don’t buy your product, they don’t buy your service, and they buy you.
People buy things because they like and trust you, they can relate to you. Anybody who hires anybody at their place of work knows, and there is even, they call it in consulting and in Wall Street, I think they call it the airport rule. And what it is, all things being equal right because you are looking at someone resume and you are like “eh, they are qualified, they are over the medium bar or qualification for whatever positions this is.
The real question and the reason that they take you out for meals and the reason that they have you talk to multiple people at any given firm or company is because they want to know you are going to get along with them. And the airport rule is this, it basically all things being equal which they usually are, if you are going to hire somebody especially for consulting, they are going to ask themselves this question; can I stand this person if I’m stuck on a layover with them for 12 hours. And if the answer is no, you are not getting hired, even if you have a startling resume because they know that nobody is going to work with you.
And when you are in consulting or law or any position that is high level position, you are working 12-14 plus hours days with those people and if they are somebody there that everyone hates, it screws up everything and costs millions of dollars in lost productively, damages, all kinds of stuff. They have measured this and the just won’t hire you, no amount of money, no amount of brilliance you bring to the table is worth having you there if people don’t like you and so they will test that.
Dave: And that is one of those thing that they teach you in consulting land but most people don’t know that until they are pretty far in their carriers if they ever figure it out.
Jordan: Right, of you start hiring people you know it, before that you are just wondering why you are not getting jobs.
Dave: That’s exactly right. There is another question for you there, you don’t take women?
Jordan: No it is for guys only and the reason for that is, you know this just because you know a lot of guys and I’m also we are the same way I’m sure at least at some level, if I’m having you come in and I’m saying tell me how you got to where you got now and I mean the bad stuff and share it with everybody and learn how to be vulnerable for the sake of learning communication. You might do that with a bunch of brothers that you trust after hours and hours and hours but if you throw one girl in there, even if it is my maid cleaning up my kitchen during boot camp, we will pause because the guy will go well, you know when I was little my parents didn’t pay a lot of attention to me.
And then his glance goes right over to her because he is self conscious. And it is really hard to be vulnerable as a guy and basically impossible if there is a female in the room. It is evolutionary, we are not wired for this, we don’t like doing this and so we don’t need to make that any harder. And of course the other things are, things that make men charismatic confident, attractive; they don’t all directly translate to women, so we have separate classes for women, separate coaches …
Dave: You do.
Jordan: Yeah we do, they are not boot camps that are residential, they are different but we found the magic farm for guys. It is not like we don’t coach women at all, we just don’t have weeklong residential boot camps for them.
Dave: I was going to ask about that because the skills are different and I know they have old fashion charm schools for women, I don’t think that that is actually going to teach charm but you might like, put on lipstick. But I have no idea what they do in those schools, serve tea or something. But what would be different for women who are like “I need to work on my social skills.” What would the differences be between what a guy would learn and what a woman would learn?
Jordan: A lot of overlaps and of course the confidence, it depends on what the social skills are going to be used for. So for dating, unfortunately, the skills for woman are completely different than they are for men. In a business environment, they are largely the same and unfortunately that is sort of bi-product for woman needed to take on sort of a larger more masculine role in a corporate work place. But unfortunately that is why women have all these issues because it conflicts a lot with the identity that they might have at home and those things might interfere.
It is really hard for a board of directors’ mum to come home and be nurturing wife or nurturing mother sometimes and it is a balance. And the people who are listening who are doing that successfully know just how hard that is. As guys we don’t really think about it because we can be tough guy at work and then when we come home we are softies with our kids but we are basically the same guy with the volume turned down a lot of the time.
And so the skills for women really, really depends, for women they are much more adaptive, it is much more, what do I need to give this person in this situation. Who do I need to be right now and it is more about choosing your role in a given situation for women than for men. For men we know, okay I need to be nice to this person because they are a kid or they are going to cry, or this employee only responds to this.
But for women they have to know, alright I’m in a work place, does this person need a foot in their butt or do they need a little bit of hand holding and nurturing because women are really uniquely suited to be more adaptable in these roles. If you are a midlevel or high level manager as female, you might go to your younger employees and really show them “hey I care about your development in your careers, I’m here to nurture you and also to crack the whip when necessary.”
That’s a skill that women should really work on developing is knowing what role to be at, at any given time. And they are usually really good at it, it is really challenging, I don’t envy that at all. I think that is probably really hard and if you get it wrong everybody think, she is such a hard ass; she wants to be a man. Or why can’t she be more tough, she is not cut out to be in this kind of workplace, this is for tough people. So it is really lose, lose for a lot of women either in the workplace or both at home and in the work place that they are trying to balance that.
So the skills are much different for women, they are much similar for women but when to use them is the question then becomes. Does that make sense? I know it is kind of a weird answer to that question.
Dave: I think it makes great sense, I have always found if I want to get stuff done in a meeting in corporate American, I love having at least one woman in the room because the guys tend to do less chest thumping and all that. But I also know a bunch of women who really don’t have much social skills that is probably because I have worked in Silicon Valley for so long. And it is clearly social skills’ training is just fun and really different for men and women. And there had got to be an overlap in the diagram but I’m just trying to put myself in their shoes and it is hard to do because I’m a guy.
Jordan: Yeah it is basically impossible, it really is.
Dave: Now we are coming up on the end of the show and there is a question that I ask everyone and you have probably heard it because you listen to the show. Top three recommendations for people who want to perform better in life, I don’t just mean from Art of Charm, from all the stuff that you learned.
Jordan: Sure, well I thought about a tone of different answers to this and I thought okay, I have got this massive laundry list, that if I have to think of the top three it is really going to be really touch. So I don’t want to be all fancy and be like, there is one unique online tool that you really need. So I might be relatively vanilla with this answer but here is the thing, people always ask me how I’m insanely productive and part of is I have an awesome assistant and stuff like that.
The other thing is I really stick to my calendar religiously and I mean if I sent a screen short and I could do this if anyone cares but is every 15 minutes of my day from 8 am or 7:30 am because before that I like to have flex time to wake up. But everything is scheduled all the way into the end of my day. In 15 minute blocks with people’s phone number when things start on time, they end on time; people know when it is going to happen. And the reason is because I have crazy ADHD, it’s hard for me to focus if I don’t know what I’m supposed to be doing at any given moment.
And if I have a phone call that is scheduled for 20 minutes and it ends in seven because something comes up or we conclude, I go 13 minutes of Facebook, oh, let’s make some more copies. I’m just unable to organize right on the spot. I’m great at thinking on my feet but I’m not great at organizing on my feet, if that makes sense.
So I knew that was weakness of mine and I see that in entrepreneurs all the time, they are like “I’ve got to work on this today” and then they work on everything but that, they never eat a proverbial frog.
Getting a calendar and things on it with your appointment and sticking to it where if it’s not on the calendar it doesn’t happen and if it is on the calendar, it absolutely happens would be something that would change your life.
Dave: I love it; I could not double down more heavily on that one. I was literally was complaining to my wife tonight that she didn’t put something on my calendar that she wanted me to do. I’m like “if it’s not on there, I’m not going to remember it is tomorrow, you forgot to say tomorrow morning and you want me to remember?” and it is like I just go to the calendar. So yes calendar and productivity, I love it and thanks for saying that and by the way no one has ever said that in the either history of the show. So that was awesome, what the other two?
Jordan: It’s funny because that is such an easy and obvious one and yet it is totally not, another thing that I think is great and it is sort of a, this might not be the greatest tool of all time but I make a lot of introductions. Usually it is something like this “hey can you introduce me to Dave Asprey? Sure, hi Dave, I’m CC’ing my friend Jordan Harbinger, I think he would be a great connection or your show, blah, blah, blah … a little bit about Dave and a little bit about Jordon and you read it and you are like “okay.” And I really have no feel for you other then that I just asked for that intro and you don’t know me from Adam.
So I use Sound cloud and I stole this from our mutual friend Jason as well, and I use Sound Cloud and I record an audio introduction where I’m like “hey Dave, this is Jordan, I want to introduce you to my friend Sam, you know what, blah, blah, blah, blah here is a little bit about him, a little bit about me … “
Because I don’t know what it is, it is a hell of a lot more personal, it’s a little bit hard to refer to on the play because it is audio but you feel like “oh, I’m getting introduced to this person almost like I was right there in front of them. And you hear how people describe them in the vocal tonality and some of the none-verbal communication really comes into play. You get a subconscious feel for oh, this guy gives off a certain vibe, he relates to people in a certain way.
So I make intros using sound cloud instead of just email and that has resulted according to people that I have introduced to each other in just a much higher success hit rate and honestly people accept the instructions a lot more when I do that way. So if you make a lot if introduction that I think a lot of people do and most people in general that are just kicking ass in life they do that.
Try, instead of email, try sound cloud or YouTube for that matter, keep unlisted or your channel will be super weird. You can introduce in a much more personal way and it is awesome and it really changes the impact that you have on all of those people. And they associate you; because it is really hard to go oh yeah someone introduced us via email a while back I don’t remember who it was. If they remember your voice, “oh yeah Jordan introduced us on Sound cloud” and that was three years ago.” “That’s right I remember that.” “He said that you just got back from Indonesian when I met you, when was that?” “Oh yeah, 2013, got it.” And it is such a better way to introduce people so sound cloud for introductions is definitely one of my tops for sure.
Dave: Alright you have got one more left.
Jordan: Excellent, this is another thing that I think has been mandatory just for sanity; I have an app on my phone called Line to. And there is a million second line apps, Grasshopper is one of them; this is a phone number I can give to anybody. I know that you probably don’t go “hey everybody call me on my cell phone because that would be time management suicide.
So you have to think who you give your number out to and with this app, you don’t ever have to think about it “you go yeah, here is the number you can all anytime and even if they are in Australia, if they call you at 5:00 in the morning it doesn’t matter because it is off at night, it has got hours, it can set hours. You can give it to somebody that you met once for five minutes and if they turn out to be a weird stalker person well they don’t have your cell phone number, they have a ‘Line Two’ number that you can turn them off and block.
You can block from your regular iOS too but you don’t want them calling you from different numbers and blah, blah, blah. It is very different, you can text with it, you can turn it off at certain hours, and it has a separate voicemail inbox that emails you things. So I can go on vacation come back and I have got all of my voicemails emailed to me from that phone number, tones of text messages that I can also check online and it is become literally having a second phone that all meshes into my one device.
I never have to think about who has my contact info, I never have to think about calling somebody and them having my number and then what. I never have to worry about missing a message or anything like that and it is cheap. It’s like 15 bucks a month and I think I can get a toll free number for an extra five and it is amazing. It literally will change the way that you communicate with people because you don’t have to pre-screen people. You can just let anyone contact you if that is what you want to do, if you are in sales or if you are running a business you want that but damn you don’t want them to have your cell phone number.
Dave: Nice, protect the number. I have a different strategy on that front; I’ve just booked every 15 minutes of every other day just like you. But I’m usually, because I live on an island. I’m almost always on Skype or on the phone. So you are going to call me on my cell phone or you are going to cold call me, it’s like …
Jordan: Yeah like who the ‘F’ is this?
Dave: I’m not going to, even if I know who you are, I want to talk to you but I’m recording a podcast where I’m talking to someone. So it is like maybe you ought to schedule that call otherwise I’m not going to do it because I’m playing with my kids or I’m working or being a dad or being a husband. So like I don’t know, I guard my time really carefully because it is not because I’m a jerk, it is just otherwise there isn’t any time.
Jordan: I think you are right because coming down to guarding your time, the only thing is when you are first starting, I think a lot of people are … I had to get time-Nazi mode developed over a few years. It didn’t happen right away because when you are first starting you don’t have a choice. If somebody wants to buy something from you can you only get that once in a blue moon calls you at 11pm because they are in Australia you are going to answer it but here is the thing, it will drive you insane and if you are married it is just going to ruin your relationship if you take calls at 1:00 in the morning from bed. And the best way to do that is to not know when you are getting a call.
Dave: I put the airplane mode on at night. And if someone wants to call me, actually there isn’t a way to reach me at night, I’m sorry I’m asleep, I will wake up and maybe I will miss an important call, I got my sleep, it was worth.
Jordan: Right and you and I can afford to do that but I think in the beginning when you have to be uber-hustle mode, things will blow up with you and burn down and you business is gone. That is not going to happen to you, it is not going to happen to me. But if you are bootstrapping and something crashes and they can’t reach you and you have got a demo in the morning, dang it! You need your phone on but you need to have circles of trust and stuff like that and this app helps you make that happen.
Dave: Awesome, well Jordon, thanks for being on the show it has been fascinating to talk about the other side of high performance, like high performance relationships and owning your own behavior even when you are not aware of it. URL, Facebook, Twitter, what coordinates should people learn about so that they can learn more about what you are doing in Art of Charm.
Jordan: I think honestly since you guys are already sort of listening/ watching to a podcast, just check out the art of charm on iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you listen to podcasts. Of course, if you are one of the rare few who stream from the web; theartofcharmpodcast.com, as 300 plus hours of stuff. We have an app for android and an app for iPhone that is streams and plays it as well.
So people can get that a lot of ways but I would say don’t necessarily, “buy this thing from me, I have got a lot of free stuff, consume the heck out the free stuff and then if it starts changing your life which it is designed to do, call me and we will think about next steps. Rather than hock something, go enjoy the free stuff, you are already enjoying the podcast, after you get done listening to Bulletproof Radio, go check out the Art of Charm. That is pretty much it.
Dave: Good deal; thanks man, have a good night, you can take your shades off once we turn down the lights.
Jordan: Yeah I have got to do that.
Dave: A lot of people don’t realize that I went to a great deal of effort to make Keurig compatible coffee cartilages. The Bulletproof cartages which are not licensed by Keurig are made from 100% recyclable materials and they are nitrogen flushed for maximum freshness. You can check those ones out on upgradedself.com